(amb) Ambient Music Business - what the ?

[Amongst Myselves-2]

Hi all,

You may have been reading the short discussion about the re-release of ambient 01 an 02 with the thoughts of creating a 03 release.

What I'd be interested in discussing is the whole marketing side of "ambient" musics that people are using and what they have learnt from their experience. The ideal outcome is for creators of ambient music here on the list to improve their access to a small market and optimise their meager funds.

I feel that those of us who do release music and have done for a while are very secretive about how they go about things. And they may be trying to protect their markets ? I don't know but surely such a process can be a benefit to all those creators.

Any takers ?

All the best,

Steve Roberts

---

Amongst Myselves - ambient - landscape and space music
www.amongstmyselves.com

[Dark Duck Records]

Well, not sure how qualified I am to comment but one think I do know
is sending out tons of free promo copies of your CDs to radio stations
is a major losing venture.  You NEVER make back even the money you
spend sending the CDs out.  Few people actually try to promote your CD
and many radio stations and shows are run by ambient music fans that
just want to feed their addiction for FREE...hahaha.  That's why one
thing I try to do on my show Kite Radio is actually find stuff I think
people will like and promote it.  I don't play anything that I would
not personally pay money for (and alot of what I play I PURCHASED).  I
only very rarely ask artists for free music, but hey.

As far as marketing goes, i'm interested to hear what others have to
say.  I agree that many of our peers are very secretive of their
methods and i'm not sure why.  Maybe it's because there is so little
$$ out there that they want to protect whatever angle they have.
Seems a bit silly to me but whatever :)

sp


On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Amongst Myselves
<lists@...> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> You may have been reading the short discussion about the re-release of
> ambient 01 an 02 with the thoughts of creating a 03 release.
>
> What I'd be interested in discussing is the whole marketing side of
> "ambient" musics that people are using and what they have learnt from their
> experience. The ideal outcome is for creators of ambient music here on the
> list to improve their access to a small market and optimise their meager
> funds.
>
> I feel that those of us who do release music and have done for a while are
> very secretive about how they go about things. And they may be trying to
> protect their markets ? I don't know but surely such a process can be a
> benefit to all those creators.
>
> Any takers ?
>
> All the best,
>
> Steve Roberts
>
> ---
>
> Amongst Myselves - ambient - landscape and space music
> www.amongstmyselves.com

[Rob Chant]

Just to throw in a quick two pennies... my day job is essentially marketing (mainly of the on-line variety). There are a lot of great (and even more poor) blogs and other resources sites for small business and individual creator marketing. The one I tend to stick to the most is Seth Godin's, however:

http://sethgodin.typepad.com

I don't always agree with him, but he's also good for a kick up the arse.

Rob

np: the drone zone, as ever... / soma.fm



Dark Duck Records wrote:

Well, not sure how qualified I am to comment but one think I do know
is sending out tons of free promo copies of your CDs to radio stations
is a major losing venture.  You NEVER make back even the money you
spend sending the CDs out.  Few people actually try to promote your CD
and many radio stations and shows are run by ambient music fans that
just want to feed their addiction for FREE...hahaha.  That's why one
thing I try to do on my show Kite Radio is actually find stuff I think
people will like and promote it.  I don't play anything that I would
not personally pay money for (and alot of what I play I PURCHASED).  I
only very rarely ask artists for free music, but hey.

As far as marketing goes, i'm interested to hear what others have to
say.  I agree that many of our peers are very secretive of their
methods and i'm not sure why.  Maybe it's because there is so little
$$ out there that they want to protect whatever angle they have.
Seems a bit silly to me but whatever :)

sp


On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Amongst Myselves
lists@... wrote:
  

Hi all,

You may have been reading the short discussion about the re-release of
ambient 01 an 02 with the thoughts of creating a 03 release.

What I'd be interested in discussing is the whole marketing side of
"ambient" musics that people are using and what they have learnt from their
experience. The ideal outcome is for creators of ambient music here on the
list to improve their access to a small market and optimise their meager
funds.

I feel that those of us who do release music and have done for a while are
very secretive about how they go about things. And they may be trying to
protect their markets ? I don't know but surely such a process can be a
benefit to all those creators.

Any takers ?

All the best,

Steve Roberts

---

Amongst Myselves - ambient - landscape and space music
www.amongstmyselves.com
    

[Glenn Folkvord - Planet Origo]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Amongst Myselves" <lists@...>

> What I'd be interested in discussing is the whole marketing side of
> "ambient" musics that people are using and what they have learnt from
> their experience.

What I have found, not as an artist but as a promotor/publisher/journalist,
is that it is possible to reach out to customer groups (or fans, or whatever
less cynical you want to call them) which didnt know they'd be interested in
the music. For example, I once curated an art exhibition where ambient music
was played as a soundtrack, and because the artpieces themselves were
sometimes too expensive for many attendees, they bought the CD instead, as a
souvenir (it also had reproductions of the artworks printed in the booklet).

Another time I organized a small concert for school kids, and some wanted to
hear the music again later, so they bought CDs (and probably uploaded them
on some p2p network later).

In the 90s I had radio shows for ambient and electronic music on radio
stations that were not dominated by students, artsy programming and academic
content. Just plain, regular, commercial stations. I admit my show wasnt the
most popular but every week there were one or two or three who called or
emailed and said, "I didnt know this music existed, what is it called and
how do I get it?".

My mother, who is 55 and a person who likes Abba and Rolling Stones and that
kind of stuff, was accidentally exposed to electronic music by me and now
listens to JM Jarre and Vangelis on her own initiative, even go to their
concerts. She doesnt listen to ambient music but I think the principle is
that many people dont know they like this kind of music, because they are
never exposed to it. It's about finding new venues and customer groups, and
not just keep preaching to the choir, who maybe are jaded and busy with
their regular listening and has all the choices and knowledge already.

> I feel that those of us who do release music and have done for a
> while are very secretive about how they go about things. And they may
> be trying to protect their markets ?

I am sure people want to protect their "secrets". If everyone finds out
about Kunaki, the market will be flooded by on-demand CDs and compete with
your own! :-)

Greetings from Glenn Folkvord
Chief editor

http://www.PlanetOrigo.com
http://twitter.com/planetorigo
Sci-fi movies  |  Electronic music
 

[Dark Duck Records]

> I am sure people want to protect their "secrets". If everyone finds out
> about Kunaki, the market will be flooded by on-demand CDs and compete with
> your own! :-)


hahaha.  I highly doubt that.  People these days are too fixated with
getting their stuff into iTunes and other download sites then they are
about releasing CDs and I gotta be honest with you, getting onto
iTunes and other download sites, ain't a bad idea.  Many more people
are likely to stumble onto your stuff on these sites then they are
likely to stumble onto your CD through your own site.

sp

[Glenn Folkvord - Planet Origo]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dark Duck Records" <darkduckrecords@...>

> hahaha.  I highly doubt that.  People these days are too fixated with
> getting their stuff into iTunes and other download sites then they are
> about releasing CDs and I gotta be honest with you, getting onto
> iTunes and other download sites, ain't a bad idea.  Many more people
> are likely to stumble onto your stuff on these sites then they are
> likely to stumble onto your CD through your own site.

I meant Kunaki as an example of clever tricks one can use to get sales or
exposure. Substitute Kunaki for something else, like CDbaby or Tunecore for
getting into iTunes, then it's more relevant, but the principle is still the
same.

Greetings from Glenn Folkvord
Chief editor

http://www.PlanetOrigo.com
http://twitter.com/planetorigo
Sci-fi movies  |  Electronic music
 

[Dark Duck Records]

> I meant Kunaki as an example of clever tricks one can use to get sales or
> exposure. Substitute Kunaki for something else, like CDbaby or Tunecore for
> getting into iTunes, then it's more relevant, but the principle is still the
> same.


shut up man, you're giving away all our secrets ;)  heh heh

actually i'm fine with people using these outlets.  i'm gratefull that
kunaki is around.  i love their service and never want them to
leave/go out of business.  not that i think they will but ... as a
person that did DIY for 15 years, i don't miss printing and cutting up
CD covers and such.  kunaki is a god-send.

sp

[Riouxs]

Do we have secrets?  I guess so to an extent.  I usually don't post what we're doing to this list in 
promoting such an such release (a release blurb seems more than sufficient), but I do know that I've
gotten a few personal emails in the last year asking for tips on various label aspects; publishing, marketing,
distro., digital distro., etc.  And I have been, and will continue to be, willing to expound on whatever
bits of knowledge I've dredged up since our first release 8+ years ago. 

I got into this w/ only music mail-order experience, so everything has been picked up along the way
with no real primers.  I've read some postings about label evolutions (Simple Machines, Warp, 4AD, ECM are a few),
scanned things like 'the indie music bible' (which was marginally helpful) and asked a number of
people.  Some of the most helpful advice has been simple essential marketing.  One of which was
Taylor Deupree's, "keep the quality high".    Someone else said that "if you don't care for the release, than
you can't expect someone else to either."  Music is highly personalized and *very* subjective, but that
advice has helped immensely in deciding to get behind a piece of music - or not to.

I also made a conscious decision about half a dozen releases into our catalog to release stuff that
was just that - of high quality and something that I was very enthusiastic about, regardless if the artist
was known or not.   At the time we had done releases by Andrew Liles, Colin Potter, Beequeen, and I felt
that these were artists that had a good number, relatively speaking, of labels interested in them and Infraction
was yet another label treading similar ground.  I liked those releases well enough, but I wanted to change our
direction a bit.  So, the next line of releases were of artists not that well
known, but that I was very excited about the prospect of being involved in the release - Zimiamvian Night, Koda,
Beautumn - because the recordings were IMO something special. 
Each of the artists had never released music previously, and each of the releases eventually sold out. 

There was not a ton of copies sent out for 'promotion'.  There were maybe 40 copies of each of the Koda
and the Beautumn sent out to select places that were supportive of ambient or that we had some interaction with. 
Maybe 5 of the ZN (it was only 50 copies).  The other two were editions of around 500.  

They seem to have thrived on good word-of-mouth.  Mailing list(s), blogs, personal recommendations, store recomendations,
I really can't say for sure.    For better or worse, we've kind of kept that same plan in place for releases since then
and it's served us well.  It's provided slow and steady growth - we're able to do larger editions and produce
more elaborate packaging, or packaging that is of higher quality.  We're also able to pay back artists on CD editions that
have broken even, and have done digital distro. that almost instantly goes back to an artist.

The people that pick up the releases on Infraction
seem to usually come back for something else on the label, or something that we carry in our shop on other
labels that may be of interest.   That is the best feedback IMO.   Not to sound corny, but I value each sale
that comes through our site, discogs, ebay, itunes - it supports the label, the artists we represent and keeps
things running. 

I'm a huge music consumer too, so I like it when I buy from artists/labels/sites and there
is some interaction there, or gratitude, or dialog, or something where my support is appreciated or at least
recognized.  I try to implement that as well in the transactions we have.  I also try to throw in something
extra for new customers, give discounts, free shipping overseas to those that either ask for it - or are purchasing say, half
a dozen titles.  We also have subscribers to the label, they pick up each release as it comes out - so there is
discounts given to them and other extras to show our appreciation for their committment - promotion only discs,
free label t-shirts, free priority shipping whatever it may be.

These are some of the "secrets", looking forward to reading others 'inside knowledge'.  :)

Jason
infractionrecords.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Dark Duck Records <darkduckrecords@...>
To: Glenn Folkvord - PlanetOrigo.com <glenn@...>
Cc: Ambient Music list <ambient@...>
Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:01 am
Subject: Re: (amb) Ambient Music Business - what the ?

> I am sure people want to protect their "secrets". If everyone finds out

> about Kunaki, the market will be flooded by on-demand CDs and compete with

> your own! :-)





hahaha.  I highly doubt that.  People these days are too fixated with

getting their stuff into iTunes and other download sites then they are

about releasing CDs and I gotta be honest with you, getting onto

iTunes and other download sites, ain't a bad idea.  Many more people

are likely to stumble onto your stuff on these sites then they are

likely to stumble onto your CD through your own site.



sp

[Ian O'Brien-2]

riouxs@... wrote:

> Do we have secrets?  I guess so to an extent.  I usually don't post
> what we're doing to this list in
> promoting such an such release (a release blurb seems more than
> sufficient), but I do know that I've
> gotten a few personal emails in the last year asking for tips on
> various label aspects; publishing, marketing,
> distro., digital distro., etc.  And I have been, and will continue to
> be, willing to expound on whatever
> bits of knowledge I've dredged up since our first release 8+ years ago.
>
> I got into this w/ only music mail-order experience, so everything has
> been picked up along the way
> with no real primers.  I've read some postings about label evolutions
> (Simple Machines, Warp, 4AD, ECM are a few),
> scanned things like 'the indie music bible' (which was marginally
> helpful) and asked a number of
> people.  Some of the most helpful advice has been simple essential
> marketing.  One of which was
> Taylor Deupree's, "keep the quality high".    Someone else said that
> "if you don't care for the release, than
> you can't expect someone else to either."  Music is highly
> personalized and *very* subjective, but that
> advice has helped immensely in deciding to get behind a piece of music
> - or not to.
>
> I also made a conscious decision about half a dozen releases into our
> catalog to release stuff that
> was just that - of high quality and something that I was very
> enthusiastic about, regardless if the artist
> was known or not.   At the time we had done releases by Andrew Liles,
> Colin Potter, Beequeen, and I felt
> that these were artists that had a good number, relatively speaking,
> of labels interested in them and Infraction
> was yet another label treading similar ground.  I liked those releases
> well enough, but I wanted to change our
> direction a bit.  So, the next line of releases were of artists not
> that well
> known, but that I was very excited about the prospect of being
> involved in the release - Zimiamvian Night, Koda,
> Beautumn - because the recordings were IMO something special.
> Each of the artists had never released music previously, and each of
> the releases eventually sold out.
>
> There was not a ton of copies sent out for 'promotion'.  There were
> maybe 40 copies of each of the Koda
> and the Beautumn sent out to select places that were supportive of
> ambient or that we had some interaction with.
> Maybe 5 of the ZN (it was only 50 copies).  The other two were
> editions of around 500.  
>
> They seem to have thrived on good word-of-mouth.  Mailing list(s),
> blogs, personal recommendations, store recomendations,
> I really can't say for sure.    For better or worse, we've kind of
> kept that same plan in place for releases since then
> and it's served us well.  It's provided slow and steady growth - we're
> able to do larger editions and produce
> more elaborate packaging, or packaging that is of higher quality.  
> We're also able to pay back artists on CD editions that
> have broken even, and have done digital distro. that almost instantly
> goes back to an artist.
>
> The people that pick up the releases on Infraction
> seem to usually come back for something else on the label, or
> something that we carry in our shop on other
> labels that may be of interest.   That is the best feedback IMO.   Not
> to sound corny, but I value each sale
> that comes through our site, discogs, ebay, itunes - it supports the
> label, the artists we represent and keeps
> things running.
>
> I'm a huge music consumer too, so I like it when I buy from
> artists/labels/sites and there
> is some interaction there, or gratitude, or dialog, or something where
> my support is appreciated or at least
> recognized.  I try to implement that as well in the transactions we
> have.  I also try to throw in something
> extra for new customers, give discounts, free shipping overseas to
> those that either ask for it - or are purchasing say, half
> a dozen titles.  We also have subscribers to the label, they pick up
> each release as it comes out - so there is
> discounts given to them and other extras to show our appreciation for
> their committment - promotion only discs,
> free label t-shirts, free priority shipping whatever it may be.
>
> These are some of the "secrets", looking forward to reading others
> 'inside knowledge'.  :)
>
> Jason
> infractionrecords.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dark Duck Records <darkduckrecords@...>
> To: Glenn Folkvord - PlanetOrigo.com <glenn@...>
> Cc: Ambient Music list <ambient@...>
> Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 11:01 am
> Subject: Re: (amb) Ambient Music Business - what the ?
>
> > I am sure people want to protect their "secrets". If everyone finds out
>
> > about Kunaki, the market will be flooded by on-demand CDs and compete with
>
> > your own! :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> hahaha.  I highly doubt that.  People these days are too fixated with
>
> getting their stuff into iTunes and other download sites then they are
>
> about releasing CDs and I gotta be honest with you, getting onto
>
> iTunes and other download sites, ain't a bad idea.  Many more people
>
> are likely to stumble onto your stuff on these sites then they are
>
> likely to stumble onto your CD through your own site.
>
>
>
> sp
>

I remember getting the Koda CD from you on a "play it now, then return
it or keep & pay" - extreme honor system. Just the generous terms alone
made me want to buy it... but the CD sold itself. Must be nice when you
can believe in your stuff like that.

Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if you posted something like
"Jason's picks" to the list, new stuff that you were really hot about -
and maybe some samples.

BTW - anyone have any word of  the P.B.E.operation - seemed like David
was closing down for a second time, and not sure if he's gonna resurface.

[Caleb Deupree]

My only stake in this discussion is as a listener and occasional  
reviewer, but I will speak up for promotional copies as downloads.  
I've gotten download copies from both labels and artists, and as long  
as they include *complete* artwork as jpeg or pdf, I don't mind using  
them for review purposes.  This applies not only to artists and labels  
located abroad, but I've gotten several download copies for albums  
that are released only on vinyl, which I am no longer able to play  
(and much more expensive to ship around for review).  Download copies  
also establish a more personal relationship with the artist/label  
owner since they have to initiate the transaction via email, and  
eliminate a fairly significant marketing expense.  I can't speak for  
the label owners about how successful this mechanism is from their  
end, but it works for me since most of what I review will end up on my  
iPod anyway.  Physical CDs are lovely and all, but we all understand  
the need to shave down expenses wherever possible.

Let me stress again that complete success here requires all of the  
artwork.  Often there is meaningful information on the back or inside  
which helps provide more accurate information in the review.  On more  
than one occasion I've gone back to the artist/label to ask for  
complete artwork, only to find that something I'd written was  
inaccurate or incomplete.

---
Caleb Deupree
ctdeupree@...
http://classicaldrone.blogspot.com

[Glenn Folkvord - Planet Origo]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Caleb Deupree" <ctdeupree@...>

> I can't speak for  the label owners about how successful this mechanism is
> from their  end, but it works for me since most of what I review will end
> up on my  iPod anyway.  Physical CDs are lovely and all, but we all
> understand  the need to shave down expenses wherever possible.

There are those reviewers who wont accept (to review) music unless they get
a physical CD. I think they feel that a bunch of bits and bytes arent worth
playing and "owning", and that it is little more than an illegal rip from a
Russian music site. There are of course also those who are happy with both,
or even prefer downloads (convenience). I dont have any numbers, but I do
routinely talk to reviewers who demand CDs.

Greetings from Glenn Folkvord
Chief editor

http://www.PlanetOrigo.com
Electronic Music Shop & Magazine
Free shipping, bonuses and exclusives!

[Dave at EAR/Rational Music]

The tide will probably turn here, as fewer and fewer CDs are sold. But  
I think with on-demand CDs available so readily now, it makes sense  
for even a download label to make one-off CDs for reviewers who won't  
review downloads.

Dave

>> I can't speak for  the label owners about how successful this  
>> mechanism is from their  end, but it works for me since most of  
>> what I review will end up on my  iPod anyway.  Physical CDs are  
>> lovely and all, but we all understand  the need to shave down  
>> expenses wherever possible.
>
> There are those reviewers who wont accept (to review) music unless  
> they get a physical CD. I think they feel that a bunch of bits and  
> bytes arent worth playing and "owning", and that it is little more  
> than an illegal rip from a Russian music site. There are of course  
> also those who are happy with both, or even prefer downloads  
> (convenience). I dont have any numbers, but I do routinely talk to  
> reviewers who demand CDs.
>
> Greetings from Glenn Folkvord
> Chief editor
>
> http://www.PlanetOrigo.com
> Electronic Music Shop & Magazine
> Free shipping, bonuses and exclusives!

[George Cruickshank]

Speaking personally, the preference for CDs has nothing to do with valuing a
physical product over and above an intangible download, and everything to do
with practicality, convenience and respect.

At any one time I have around 150 CD or CD-R recordings sitting on my desk
waiting to be previewed - so there's never a shortage of suitable new
material to incorporate into the show.

Almost all of those recordings list the name of the artist/s, and the name
and duration of each track - so all the information I need to quickly and
easily incorporate music from those recordings into the show is sitting
right in front of me, at no cost to me... so it's not as though I *need* to
go trawling through download sites to find excellent new music.

As far as downloads go it's a much more tricky scenario.

Firstly, the artist is requesting that I pay to download their  music before
deciding if I actually like it or not. Bandwidth is not free, and I find
this notion somewhat presumptuous, to say the least.

Secondly, if I do happen to like what I hear I'm then required to spend
further time and money burning a CD-R, printing out and trimming cover
inserts and a CD label, and putting together the finished product - in other
words, doing the artist's marketing and promotions job for them - at *my*
expense.

Frankly, I consider the above to be nothing less than a rude and
disrespectful imposition on my limited time and resources by any artist who
has effectively lobbied me to gain the benefit of having their music exposed
to the tens of thousands of people who listen to the show each week - and I
simply won't do it.

I know that other radio broadcasters share this view.

In short, if you want your music to be noticed, take 30 minutes out of your
life and $5 out of your pocket to prepare a properly-labelled hard-copy
recording and stick it in the post.

Given the time and energy you've probably put into producing your music in
the first place I really don't think this is too much of an ask.

Regards,

George Cruickshank

Ultima Thule Ambient Music
www.ultimathule.info

...Australia's foremost ambient music radio show, since 1989.



----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Folkvord - PlanetOrigo.com [mailto:glenn@...]
Sent: Sunday, 8 November 2009 12:40 PM
To: Ambient Music list
Subject: Re: (amb) Ambient Music Business - what the ?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Caleb Deupree" <ctdeupree@...>

> I can't speak for  the label owners about how successful this
> mechanism is
> from their  end, but it works for me since most of what I review will end
> up on my  iPod anyway.  Physical CDs are lovely and all, but we all
> understand  the need to shave down expenses wherever possible.

There are those reviewers who wont accept (to review) music unless they get
a physical CD. I think they feel that a bunch of bits and bytes arent worth
playing and "owning", and that it is little more than an illegal rip from a
Russian music site. There are of course also those who are happy with both,
or even prefer downloads (convenience). I dont have any numbers, but I do
routinely talk to reviewers who demand CDs.

Greetings from Glenn Folkvord
Chief editor

http://www.PlanetOrigo.com
Electronic Music Shop & Magazine
Free shipping, bonuses and exclusives!

[Forrest Fang]

Probably a pretty dull topic for some.  I've never been a big fan of the business end of making music, but have been fortunate to have worked with labels that handle promo requests.  For ambient artists with very limited resources and who are releasing work under their own label, I would suggest directing your promos to syndicated shows (like HOS), shows with a loyal following (like Star's End), assuming of course that your music fits the demographic/style of the show itself.  I wouldn't put net-based shows in the same category, though they might give you more bang for your buck than, say, a 5-watt college radio station in Winnetonka.  I think it does reflect a true interest in your music for a programmer to actually purchase your album, instead of bombarding you with requests for freebies.  It can be really annoying.

Forrest

On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Amongst Myselves <lists@...> wrote:

Hi all,

You may have been reading the short discussion about the re-release of ambient 01 an 02 with the thoughts of creating a 03 release.

What I'd be interested in discussing is the whole marketing side of "ambient" musics that people are using and what they have learnt from their experience. The ideal outcome is for creators of ambient music here on the list to improve their access to a small market and optimise their meager funds.

I feel that those of us who do release music and have done for a while are very secretive about how they go about things. And they may be trying to protect their markets ? I don't know but surely such a process can be a benefit to all those creators.

Any takers ?

All the best,

Steve Roberts

---

Amongst Myselves - ambient - landscape and space music
www.amongstmyselves.com

[Riouxs]

>I remember getting the Koda CD from you on a "play it now, then return it or keep & pay" - extreme honor system. Just the generous terms alone made me want to buy it... but the CD sold itself. >Must be nice when you can believe in your stuff like that. 
 
>Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if you posted something like "Jason's picks" to the list, new stuff that you were really hot about - and maybe some samples. 
 
>BTW - anyone have any word of the P.B.E.operation - seemed like David was closing down for a second time, and not sure if he's gonna resurface.

I remember now that honor system mailout, had forgotten all about that!

Picks - hmm...I don't really have any at the moment.  I feel like I'm behind on listening tbh.  I see alot of tasty looking titles
out there right now on Experimedia and Home Normal - plus there is a new Rameses III on Type that I have not picked up yet.  I *can* recommend
any of the Rameses III though - esp. the 2CD set on Important that came out last year called "Basilica".   Oh, the new Bass Communion
on Tonefloat "Litany" is about as beautiful a piece as they have ever done.  Vinyl only so far though unfortunately/fortunately depending on
which side of the vinyl debate you're on.  

I think PBE is in re-organization mode - I know he recently moved, so that may be the delay in resurfacing.

Jason
infractionrecords.com

[Caleb Deupree]

I would say exactly the same thing about downloads.  Stephen just told  
us that "sending out tons of free promo copies of your CDs to radio  
stations is a major losing venture.  You NEVER make back even the  
money you spend sending the CDs out."  I like getting surprise promo  
packages in the mail as much as anybody, and certainly a well designed  
digipack is a real pleasure to behold.  But accepting downloads for  
review supports the label by reducing the cost of postage to the cost  
of bandwidth, and letting the label keep one more copy of its CDs for  
sale to paying customers.  For a major label, one CD is no big deal,  
but when I've been offered one of a limited edition of 100, it seems  
disrespectful to accept one percent of the run, no matter how  
wonderful a review I might write.  I agree that bandwidth isn't free,  
but it's cheaper than postage and packaging, and it shows respect by  
helping the label keep more of its money so it can continue with its  
next project sooner.

DJ software exists so you could run a whole show from a hard drive.  
This software lists each track by name, title, time, and any other  
field that your database (e.g., iTunes) supports.  For example, iTunes  
has a date field, so you could easily see all of the ambient music  
from the 1980s, sorted by time.  Sure, there may be other logistics  
involved depending on the setup in the broadcast booth, but it's  
certainly possible, so the practicality and convenience factors of  
running a show from one interface vs. 150 CDs seems a question of  
personal preference but not objectively true in all cases.
---
Caleb Deupree
ctdeupree@...
http://classicaldrone.blogspot.com


On Nov 7, 2009, at 7:26 PM, George wrote:

> Speaking personally, the preference for CDs has nothing to do with  
> valuing a
> physical product over and above an intangible download, and  
> everything to do
> with practicality, convenience and respect.

[stephen.fruitman]

The physical CD and the music review: I do believe it has thus far proven
to be a fair and balanced relationship, insofar as both parties are in
agreement.

The artist or label sends a CD in the hope that it will get an trustworthy
appraisal by an outside, informed pairs of ears.

The former must decide whether they can afford to post free records from
among tiny runs like one hundred. And reviewers must show restraint and
request only what they are really interested in delving more deeply into.

The reviewer, at least the enthusiast who isn´t making his living from it,
is indeed often a fetishist. Otherwise he wouldn´t be collecting ideas
about music, too, and feeling compelled to foist them on the world.

I myself enjoy an added dimension of pleasure by studying the artwork,
paperstock, whatever the music comes wrapped in, the information
considered important enough to include. Not the least when the artist (or
label firebrand, or good friend) has designed the cover or taken the
photographs. Meanings unfold that just don´t do so the same way through
hyperlinks.

It´s a fair deal - unique artefacts in exchange for unique thoughts.

Of course, mutual trust must exist, or the whole thing falls apart, with
or without the digital alternative.

Though digital promotion is absolutely a smart, efficient alternative, the
medium still changes the message.

Lots of interesting persepctives, thanks guys and gals. Respectfully, Stephen

[Lisa-33]

Hello

I wasn't sure which part of this topic to reply to, but this seemed most
fitting.

As music director for a non-commercial/non-profit college radio station
at a large university in the northeast US, I can say that we are given
no money to purchase music. I wish this weren't the case, maybe other
schools are structured differently. We are also 100% volunteer and
rarely have time to review stuff that arrives via digital unless we have
a prior arrangement with a label. Most digital stuff sits in the music
directors' e-mail boxes until we can get to it. From there we download,
burn to CD, create a tray card, and assemble the parts - much more labor
intensive than opening a package from the mail. Sadly I just downloaded
and reviewed a CD yesterday that I got back in July that was really
amazing and here it is November. Better late than never I guess. In
terms of marketing stuff we always recommend that people to send us
physical CDs because it gets the music reviewed quickly.

We really appreciate when artists/labels/promo companies/etc. can send
us physical CDs. Those CDs stay at the station and no one hordes them:
we are very strict about this. Also, I have known many DJs and staffers
at the station to go out and purchase releases after hearing them from
our playlist. It's not a perfect system but we do our best to enjoy and
respect the music, and to give exposure to artists that the general
public might not hear elsewhere on FM radio.

My personal preference for purchasing music is either CD or vinyl. I
enjoy the experience of looking at the artwork, smelling the ink or
paper, and moving the cases/jackets and CDs/LPs around while playing
music. I do have an ipod and use that from time to time to listen to
digital versions in my car or riding the train. I like having the choice
of how to purchase or play music.

Lisa


Glenn Folkvord - PlanetOrigo.com wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Caleb Deupree"
> <ctdeupree@...>
>
>> I can't speak for  the label owners about how successful this
>> mechanism is from their  end, but it works for me since most of what I
>> review will end up on my  iPod anyway.  Physical CDs are lovely and
>> all, but we all understand  the need to shave down expenses wherever
>> possible.
>
> There are those reviewers who wont accept (to review) music unless they
> get a physical CD. I think they feel that a bunch of bits and bytes
> arent worth playing and "owning", and that it is little more than an
> illegal rip from a Russian music site. There are of course also those
> who are happy with both, or even prefer downloads (convenience). I dont
> have any numbers, but I do routinely talk to reviewers who demand CDs.
>
> Greetings from Glenn Folkvord
> Chief editor
>
> http://www.PlanetOrigo.com
> Electronic Music Shop & Magazine
> Free shipping, bonuses and exclusives!
>

[Bill Fox]

Unfortunately, iTunes and DJ software have (afaik) no place for complete
liner notes, information about the packaging the customer sees, and a
place to stick a post-it note to keep a record of airplay history for
the album a track came from.  (Are attachments allowed on email to this
list?  I could show an example.)

Due to lack of funds, I have not looked at DJ software... not that I
have a laptop available to put it on.  But if I were to look at DJ
software, it would have to allow me the ability to be as arty as I try
to be at WDIY and WMUH.  If DJ software works like the broadcast boards
I use, I'd be amazed.

Cheers,

Bill

Caleb Deupree wrote:

> DJ software exists so you could run a whole show from a hard drive.  
> This software lists each track by name, title, time, and any other
> field that your database (e.g., iTunes) supports.  For example, iTunes
> has a date field, so you could easily see all of the ambient music
> from the 1980s, sorted by time.  Sure, there may be other logistics
> involved depending on the setup in the broadcast booth, but it's
> certainly possible, so the practicality and convenience factors of
> running a show from one interface vs. 150 CDs seems a question of
> personal preference but not objectively true in all cases.
> ---
> On Nov 7, 2009, at 7:26 PM, George wrote:
>> Speaking personally, the preference for CDs has nothing to do with
>> valuing a
>> physical product over and above an intangible download, and
>> everything to do
>> with practicality, convenience and respect.

[George Cruickshank]

If you'd like to pop around and start transferring my 5000+ CDs to hard disk
sometime, feel free :-)

My point is that artists/record companies who choose not to send me a
physical promo CD will simply not get airplay - because there are literally
hundreds who *do* - and naturally enough, they go to the head of the queue.

I am a volunteer. I do what I do for love, not money.

Make my life easy and I'll love you forever.

Make my life more difficult or costly than it needs to be and I won't.

This is marketing 101 stuff.

George Cruickshank
www.ultimathule.info



-----Original Message-----
From: Caleb Deupree [mailto:ctdeupree@...]
Sent: Monday, 9 November 2009 12:17 AM
To: Ambient Music list
Subject: Re: (amb) Ambient Music Business - what the ?


I would say exactly the same thing about downloads.  Stephen just told  
us that "sending out tons of free promo copies of your CDs to radio  
stations is a major losing venture.  You NEVER make back even the  
money you spend sending the CDs out."  I like getting surprise promo  
packages in the mail as much as anybody, and certainly a well designed  
digipack is a real pleasure to behold.  But accepting downloads for  
review supports the label by reducing the cost of postage to the cost  
of bandwidth, and letting the label keep one more copy of its CDs for  
sale to paying customers.  For a major label, one CD is no big deal,  
but when I've been offered one of a limited edition of 100, it seems  
disrespectful to accept one percent of the run, no matter how  
wonderful a review I might write.  I agree that bandwidth isn't free,  
but it's cheaper than postage and packaging, and it shows respect by  
helping the label keep more of its money so it can continue with its  
next project sooner.

DJ software exists so you could run a whole show from a hard drive.  
This software lists each track by name, title, time, and any other  
field that your database (e.g., iTunes) supports.  For example, iTunes  
has a date field, so you could easily see all of the ambient music  
from the 1980s, sorted by time.  Sure, there may be other logistics  
involved depending on the setup in the broadcast booth, but it's  
certainly possible, so the practicality and convenience factors of  
running a show from one interface vs. 150 CDs seems a question of  
personal preference but not objectively true in all cases.
---
Caleb Deupree
ctdeupree@...
http://classicaldrone.blogspot.com


On Nov 7, 2009, at 7:26 PM, George wrote:

> Speaking personally, the preference for CDs has nothing to do with
> valuing a
> physical product over and above an intangible download, and  
> everything to do
> with practicality, convenience and respect.