¿La revolución informática realmente revolucionará la música? Linux Audio Conference 2007

[Marcos Guglielmetti]

En este artículo presento una _crítica_ a las exageradas esperanzas puestas en
la informática relacionada con el futuro de la música en cuanto a su poder
revolucionario.

(http://www.mastermagazine.info/articulo/11483.php)

GNU/Linux Audio Conference en Berlín
28/03/2007
Autor: (marcos) Marcos Guglielmetti

Los músicos aparentemente están revolucionando la música electrónica con
programas y con instrumentos realizados por ellos mismos.

La conferencia se realizó en la Universidad Técnica de Berlín y convocó a
gente de todo el mundo vinculada con el Software Libre y la música... según
quienes cuentan la historia, "muchachos de todas partes del mundo discutiendo
horas frente a computadoras personales, con sus audífonos puestos, hablando
en una jerga inextricable"... apuesto a que fue realmente así, basta con
seguir las charlas en la lista de correo de
linux-audio-user@... para darse cuenta de que se trata de un
grupo ciertamente muy "geek" (fanático de la tecnología) y elitista, gente
que quizá sepa mucho de programación y de música, pero a la que -en general-
le cuesta llegar con palabras corrientes al resto de los usuarios de sistemas
privativos, con el fin de que cambien al Software Libre.

Hablo con conocimiento de causa, dado que hace 2 años o más que estoy
subscripto a la lista linux-audio-user@..., en donde
prácticamente todos los que estuvieron en LAC 2007 (Linux Audio Conference
2007) escriben a diario, discuten, se ayudan... el espíritu de la lista de
correo es muy bueno y colaborativo, aunque realmente elitista.

Pero no sólo de software trata el evento: los geeks reunidos allí suelen
fabricar sus propios elementos de hardware para controlar programas
musicales, suelen utilizar complejos softwares como Puredata o Csound, los
cuales espantarían a la mayoría de los músicos que recién se acercan a una
computadora.

Miguel Álvarez Fernández, uno de los curadores de LAC 2007, explica por qué
este ambiente es revolucionario: "Acá se están buscando novedades, podríamos
decir revolucionarias, en el ámbito tecnológico. La plataforma Linux, y en
general las plataformas llamadas de código abierto, permiten una nueva
relación con la tecnología. Aquí todos colaboran con todos, es una comunidad.
Vamos indagando posibilidades y redefiniendo el concepto de música"... aunque
¿no suena demasiado pretencioso redefinir el concepto de música?

La gente puede redefinir todos los conceptos que quiera, sinceramente, pero un
problema al respecto será: ¿habrá oyentes para esa nueva música que tiene
como base conceptos redefinidos de un modo radical? El tiempo lo dirá.

Para otros asistentes, el asunto no es tan innovador como lo pinta Miguel...
Edgar Barroso piensa: "Sigue siendo lo mismo que la composición musical.
Utilizo técnicas del barroco, de la música medieval; creo que sigue siendo lo
mismo. Lo único que cambia son los medios".

Por otro lado, definitivamente esta frase habla de un optimismo exagerado en
cuanto a las esperanzas puestas en la tecnología:"La música del futuro, de
melodías inexplicables, se genera con medios electrónicos." Eso último suena
a lo que en la década de 1950 se promocionaba como las casas del futuro, con
extraños aparatos que te untaban la manteca en la tostada mediante una mano
robótica o cosas de similar nivel de disparate: al final seguimos untando la
tostada con nuestras propias manos... porque es lo más lindo, lo más
agradable, lo más bello.

Por el contrario, suena mucho más realista hablar de este tipo de cosas: "A un
costado está otro mexicano, Sergio Luque. Acaba de estrenar su obra "De la
Incertidumbre" en la sala del Instituto Cervantes. Luque trabaja con un
generador aleatorio de sonido, lo que le permite literalmente encontrar
sonidos nunca antes escuchados por el oído humano." Programas como Alsa
Modular Synth también permiten hacer este tipo de cosas.

La nota original (citada abajo), continúa y no tiene desperdicio, habla de que
es imposible encontrar melodías en este nuevo mundo: "Es cierto, esta música
está concentrada en timbres complejos, que para la mayoría de la gente sería
ruido, pero que a mí me rompería el corazón si dijeran que es tal, aunque ya
me lo han roto un par de veces; creo que es cuestión de acostumbrarse".

Los dejo con los dos últimos párrafos y luego vuelvo:"Luego de un par de horas
de concentración en esta música y luchando contra las costumbres
tradicionales del oído propio, las emociones comienzan a surgir: es un mundo
algo inhóspito, donde la guía de la melodía falta, pero donde comienzan a
surgir emociones del todo comparables con la música tradicional."

"Lo que en un principio era puro desconcierto se va haciendo más cercano y ya
se puede comenzar a creer que este extraño mundo musical se transforme alguna
vez en la música usual que, quién sabe, quizá la próxima generación ya
deposite, expectante y nerviosa, en su aparato de reproducción de CD's."

Nuevamente la -a mí parecer- exagerada esperanza en el ruido, el optimismo un
tanto ridículo por la creatividad que tienen las máquinas, lo cual esconde,
creo yo, una bancarrota estético-compositiva en ciertos grupos, en ciertas
escuelas, en ciertas academias, en ciertas ideologías que pretenden que lo
único importante en materia artística es innovar, cuando quizá lo
verdaderamente importante sea 1º expresar lo que uno desea, 2º pasar un buen
momento.

Nótese que el cronista habla de "es un mundo algo inhóspito", sin melodías, ni
más ni menos que el microcentro de Buenos Aires, por ejemplo. ¿Por qué
duplicar ese ruido?

Personalmente pienso que la música llamada "contemporánea", y en particular
esa que se basa en llamar música al ruido, no hace más que trasladar el ruido
de las ciudades (autos, motos, aviones, etc.) a los instrumentos y
presentarlo si fuera música... sin ir más lejos, una caminata por el centro
de mi ciudad sería un gran concierto para toda esta generación de músicos
revolucionarios... y todo esto lo dice alguien que hace música con
computadoras desde el año 1993, además del hecho de que desarrollo un sistema
operativo para músicos y artistas en general llamado Musix GNU+Linux. En todo
caso, queda abierta la polémica, yo no pretendo dar recetas, pero me encargué
de comprar una guitarra acústica, una batería acústica, un bajo eléctrico, y
si la computadora no enciende, puedo hacer música con estos
instrumentos "contrarrevolucionarios"... es más, últimamente es normal que
opte por apagar la computadora y escuchar en serenidad el sonido limpio de mi
guitarra acústica... y como mucho, el cantar de algún ave en el patio...

En una sociedad industrializada en la que la creatividad fue pasando desde los
hombres y mujeres hacia las máquinas, no está nada mal tener un control
potencialmente total sobre las mismas utilizando Software Libre, pero de
algún modo es un poco hacerle el juego al sistema de producción industrial
alienante dejar en manos de las máquinas casi toda la creatividad artística.

Más información:
http://www.radional.g 
ob.pa/portal/noticia.aspx?PaginaAnterior=Noticias.Aspx&Notic iaID=50615



--
Marcos Guglielmetti  
* Director del desarrollo de Musix GNU+Linux, 100% Software Libre
* CD Download: (http://www.musix.org.ar/en/)
* Colabora: http://www.musix.org.ar/wiki/index.php/Musix099_tasks
* Videos, programas y otras cosas en: ftp://musix.ourproject.org/pub/musix/
* Reporte de errores a:
https://www.musix.org.ar/wiki/index.php?title=Problemas-Bugs
*IRC: #musix channel on freenode
* http://autosus.wordpress.com/

«No te tomes en serio nada que no te haga reír» [un amigo de E. Galeano]

[Marc-Olivier Barre-2]

On 3/29/07, Marcos Guglielmetti <marcospcmusica@...> wrote:

>
> En este artículo presento una _crítica_ a las exageradas esperanzas puestas en
> la informática relacionada con el futuro de la música en cuanto a su poder
> revolucionario.
>
> (http://www.mastermagazine.info/articulo/11483.php)
>
> GNU/Linux Audio Conference en Berlín
> 28/03/2007
> Autor: (marcos) Marcos Guglielmetti
>
> Los músicos aparentemente están revolucionando la música electrónica con
> programas y con instrumentos realizados por ellos mismos.
>

Hi Marcos,

Though it is a very good idea to have a copy of your article posted on
the list, it is a shame that most of us will not be able to understand
it. Could you provide us with some insight ? I'm not asking for a full
translation, only a summary of the headlines (if you have some spare
time of course).

Thanks again for your post, and for this article.

Regards,
__________________
Marc-Olivier Barre,
Markinoko.

[Jens Gulden]

> most of us will not be able to understand it
> Could you provide us with some insight?

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mastermagazine.info%2Farticulo%2F11483.php&langpair=es%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

best,
Jens

Marc-Olivier Barre schrieb:

> On 3/29/07, Marcos Guglielmetti <marcospcmusica@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> En este artículo presento una _crítica_ a las exageradas esperanzas
>> puestas en
>> la informática relacionada con el futuro de la música en cuanto a su
>> poder
>> revolucionario.
>>
>> (http://www.mastermagazine.info/articulo/11483.php)
>>
>> GNU/Linux Audio Conference en Berlín
>> 28/03/2007
>> Autor: (marcos) Marcos Guglielmetti
>>
>> Los músicos aparentemente están revolucionando la música electrónica con
>> programas y con instrumentos realizados por ellos mismos.
>>
>
> Hi Marcos,
>
> Though it is a very good idea to have a copy of your article posted on
> the list, it is a shame that most of us will not be able to understand
> it. Could you provide us with some insight ? I'm not asking for a full
> translation, only a summary of the headlines (if you have some spare
> time of course).
>
> Thanks again for your post, and for this article.
>
> Regards,
> __________________
> Marc-Olivier Barre,
> Markinoko
> .

[Thorsten Wilms]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 11:12:57AM +0200, Jens Gulden wrote:
>
> http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mastermagazine.info%2Farticulo%2F11483.php&langpair=es%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

"... speaking in good looking an inextricable slang"

I always had this suspicion this is what it comes all down to ;)


--
Thorsten Wilms

Thorwil's Creature Illustrations:
http://www.printfection.com/thorwil

[Marc-Olivier Barre-2]

On 3/29/07, Jens Gulden <mail@...> wrote:
> > most of us will not be able to understand it
> > Could you provide us with some insight?
>
> http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mastermagazine.info%2Farticulo%2F11483.php&langpair=es%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
>
> best,
> Jens
>

It's lot like I don't know google translator, thanks. I like to think
of that as a good joke. And for those who really believe in google
translation... well, here's a chosen bit :

"Nótese that the cronista speech of "is a somewhat inhospitable
world", without melodías, neither the more nor less than the
microcenter of Buenos Aires, for example. So that to duplicate that
noise?"

Anyone knows of a google-english to regular english translator ?

:-)
__________________
Marc-Olivier Barre,
Markinoko.

[Tim Howard]

On 3/29/07, Marc-Olivier Barre <mobarre@...> wrote:
> Anyone knows of a google-english to regular english translator ?

That's a language that nobody has learned yet...

-TimH

[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

[notes from the translator - Fernando Lopez-Lezcano: there are a few
words missing in the translation and I apologize for typos, also, this
article is a comment on another article written by someone actually
present at the conference, I think, the original url is at the bottom of
this commentary]

Translation follows (accuracy _not_ guaranteed :-)

Let the fun begin :-)

On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 00:48 -0300, Marcos Guglielmetti wrote:
> En este artículo presento una _crítica_ a las exageradas esperanzas puestas en
> la informática relacionada con el futuro de la música en cuanto a su poder
> revolucionario.

This article is a _critic_ to the exagerated hope of the revolutionary
power of informatics related to the future of music.

> (http://www.mastermagazine.info/articulo/11483.php)
>
> GNU/Linux Audio Conference en Berlín
> 28/03/2007
> Autor: (marcos) Marcos Guglielmetti
>
> Los músicos aparentemente están revolucionando la música electrónica con
> programas y con instrumentos realizados por ellos mismos.

Musicians are apparently revolutionazing electronic music with programs
and instruments they build themselves.

> La conferencia se realizó en la Universidad Técnica de Berlín y convocó a
> gente de todo el mundo vinculada con el Software Libre y la música... según
> quienes cuentan la historia, "muchachos de todas partes del mundo discutiendo
> horas frente a computadoras personales, con sus audífonos puestos, hablando
> en una jerga inextricable"... apuesto a que fue realmente así, basta con
> seguir las charlas en la lista de correo de
> linux-audio-user@... para darse cuenta de que se trata de un
> grupo ciertamente muy "geek" (fanático de la tecnología) y elitista, gente
> que quizá sepa mucho de programación y de música, pero a la que -en general-
> le cuesta llegar con palabras corrientes al resto de los usuarios de sistemas
> privativos, con el fin de que cambien al Software Libre.

The conference took part in the Technical University of Berlin and
gathered people from all the world related to Free Software and music,
according to those who tell the tale "guys from all over the world
arguing for hours in front of their personal computers with their
headphones on and speaking incomprehensible jargon.", I bet it was like
this, it is enough to follow the threads in the
linux-audio-user@... email list to realize that it is a
very elitist and "geek" group (technology fans), guys that maybe know a
lot about programming and music, but that - in general - hardly
communicate using normal words to the rest of the users of closed
systems so that they could change over to Free Software

> Hablo con conocimiento de causa, dado que hace 2 años o más que estoy
> subscripto a la lista linux-audio-user@..., en donde
> prácticamente todos los que estuvieron en LAC 2007 (Linux Audio Conference
> 2007) escriben a diario, discuten, se ayudan... el espíritu de la lista de
> correo es muy bueno y colaborativo, aunque realmente elitista.

I know what I'm talking about because for more than 2 years I have been
subscribed to the list, where most of the LAC 2007 (Linux Audio
Conference 2007) atendees write daily, argue, help each other... the
spirit of the list is very colleborative and good, even though it is
really elitist.

> Pero no sólo de software trata el evento: los geeks reunidos allí suelen
> fabricar sus propios elementos de hardware para controlar programas
> musicales, suelen utilizar complejos softwares como Puredata o Csound, los
> cuales espantarían a la mayoría de los músicos que recién se acercan a una
> computadora.

But the event is not only about software: the geeks there also sometimes
build their own hardware devices to control musical programs and usually
use complex software packages such as Puredata or Csound, which would
frighten most musicians that are just starting to get close to
computers.

> Miguel Álvarez Fernández, uno de los curadores de LAC 2007, explica por qué
> este ambiente es revolucionario: "Acá se están buscando novedades, podríamos
> decir revolucionarias, en el ámbito tecnológico. La plataforma Linux, y en
> general las plataformas llamadas de código abierto, permiten una nueva
> relación con la tecnología. Aquí todos colaboran con todos, es una comunidad.
> Vamos indagando posibilidades y redefiniendo el concepto de música"... aunque
> ¿no suena demasiado pretencioso redefinir el concepto de música?

Miguel Alvarez Fernandez, one of the LAC 2007 curators, explains why
this environment is revolutionary: "We are searching for new things, we
might say revolutionary things in the technological environment. The
Linux platform, and in general the so called open source platforms,
allow for a new relationship with technology. Everyone collaborates with
everyone else, it is a community. We are looking for new posibilities
and redefining the concept of music"... although doesn't it sound
pretentious to redefine the concept of music?

> La gente puede redefinir todos los conceptos que quiera, sinceramente, pero un
> problema al respecto será: ¿habrá oyentes para esa nueva música que tiene
> como base conceptos redefinidos de un modo radical? El tiempo lo dirá.

People can redefine all the concepts they want, really, but a problem
is: will there be listeners for this new music that has its basis in
radically redefined conects? Time will tell.

> Para otros asistentes, el asunto no es tan innovador como lo pinta Miguel...
> Edgar Barroso piensa: "Sigue siendo lo mismo que la composición musical.
> Utilizo técnicas del barroco, de la música medieval; creo que sigue siendo lo
> mismo. Lo único que cambia son los medios".

For other atendees things are not as innovative as Miguel says... Edgar
Barroso thinks: "It is the same as musical composition. I use barroque
techniques, of medieval music; I think things are the same. The only
change is the media."

> Por otro lado, definitivamente esta frase habla de un optimismo exagerado en
> cuanto a las esperanzas puestas en la tecnología:"La música del futuro, de
> melodías inexplicables, se genera con medios electrónicos." Eso último suena
> a lo que en la década de 1950 se promocionaba como las casas del futuro, con
> extraños aparatos que te untaban la manteca en la tostada mediante una mano
> robótica o cosas de similar nivel de disparate: al final seguimos untando la
> tostada con nuestras propias manos... porque es lo más lindo, lo más
> agradable, lo más bello.

On the other hand, this phrase definitely speaks of an exagerated
optimism in relation to hope based on technology: "Music of the future,
of inexplicable melodies, is generated by electronic means." This last
phrase sounds similar to what in the 50's was promoted as the house of
the future, with strange machines that would spread butter on your toast
with a robotic hand or things in the same weird category; in the end we
keep doing it by hand... because it is the most nice, the most pleasing,
the most beautiful.

> Por el contrario, suena mucho más realista hablar de este tipo de cosas: "A un
> costado está otro mexicano, Sergio Luque. Acaba de estrenar su obra "De la
> Incertidumbre" en la sala del Instituto Cervantes. Luque trabaja con un
> generador aleatorio de sonido, lo que le permite literalmente encontrar
> sonidos nunca antes escuchados por el oído humano." Programas como Alsa
> Modular Synth también permiten hacer este tipo de cosas.

On the contrary it sounds more realistic to talk about this type of
things: "Here's another mexican, Sergio Luque. He just premiered his
piece "De la Incertidumbre" en the Instituto Cervantes concert hall.
Luque works with aleatoric sound generation, which allows him to
literally find sounds never heard by the human ears." Programs like Alsa
Modular Synth also allow you to do these kinds of things.

> La nota original (citada abajo), continúa y no tiene desperdicio, habla de que
> es imposible encontrar melodías en este nuevo mundo: "Es cierto, esta música
> está concentrada en timbres complejos, que para la mayoría de la gente sería
> ruido, pero que a mí me rompería el corazón si dijeran que es tal, aunque ya
> me lo han roto un par de veces; creo que es cuestión de acostumbrarse".

The original article (cited below) goes on and has nothing that could go
to waste, it says that it is impossible to find melodies in this new
world: "It is true, this music is concentrated in complex timbres, that
for most people would be noise, but it would break my heart if they
would say that, even though they have already broken it a couple of
times; I think it just takes time to get used to it".

> Los dejo con los dos últimos párrafos y luego vuelvo:"Luego de un par de horas
> de concentración en esta música y luchando contra las costumbres
> tradicionales del oído propio, las emociones comienzan a surgir: es un mundo
> algo inhóspito, donde la guía de la melodía falta, pero donde comienzan a
> surgir emociones del todo comparables con la música tradicional."

I leave you with the last two paragraphs, and return with: "After a
couple of hours concentrating in this new music and fighting with the
traditional uses of our own ears, emotions start to surge: it is a
somewhat inhospitable world, where the guiding melody is lacking, but
where emotions completely similar to those evoqued by traditional music
start to appear."

> "Lo que en un principio era puro desconcierto se va haciendo más cercano y ya
> se puede comenzar a creer que este extraño mundo musical se transforme alguna
> vez en la música usual que, quién sabe, quizá la próxima generación ya
> deposite, expectante y nerviosa, en su aparato de reproducción de CD's."

"What is first completely disconcerting start becoming closer and it is
now possible to begin to believe that this strange musical world is
going to be transformed sometime in the everyday music, that perhaps the
next generation will store, nervous and expectant, in a cd player."

> Nuevamente la -a mí parecer- exagerada esperanza en el ruido, el optimismo un
> tanto ridículo por la creatividad que tienen las máquinas, lo cual esconde,
> creo yo, una bancarrota estético-compositiva en ciertos grupos, en ciertas
> escuelas, en ciertas academias, en ciertas ideologías que pretenden que lo
> único importante en materia artística es innovar, cuando quizá lo
> verdaderamente importante sea 1º expresar lo que uno desea, 2º pasar un buen
> momento.

Again - to me - the exagerated hope in the noise, the somewhat
ridiculous optimism in the creativity of machines, who hides, I think, a
stetical and compositive bankrupcy in certain schools, certain
academies, certain ideologies that pretend that the only thing important
in artistic matters is to innovate, when perhaps the really important
stuff would be 1st express what one wants to say, 2nd have a good time.

> Nótese que el cronista habla de "es un mundo algo inhóspito", sin melodías, ni
> más ni menos que el microcentro de Buenos Aires, por ejemplo. ¿Por qué
> duplicar ese ruido?

Note that the guy who writes talks about a "a somewhat inhospitable
world", without melodies, no more or less than the downtown area in
Buenos Aires, for example. Why duplicate that noise?

> Personalmente pienso que la música llamada "contemporánea", y en particular
> esa que se basa en llamar música al ruido, no hace más que trasladar el ruido
> de las ciudades (autos, motos, aviones, etc.) a los instrumentos y
> presentarlo si fuera música... sin ir más lejos, una caminata por el centro
> de mi ciudad sería un gran concierto para toda esta generación de músicos
> revolucionarios... y todo esto lo dice alguien que hace música con
> computadoras desde el año 1993, además del hecho de que desarrollo un sistema
> operativo para músicos y artistas en general llamado Musix GNU+Linux. En todo
> caso, queda abierta la polémica, yo no pretendo dar recetas, pero me encargué
> de comprar una guitarra acústica, una batería acústica, un bajo eléctrico, y
> si la computadora no enciende, puedo hacer música con estos
> instrumentos "contrarrevolucionarios"... es más, últimamente es normal que
> opte por apagar la computadora y escuchar en serenidad el sonido limpio de mi
> guitarra acústica... y como mucho, el cantar de algún ave en el patio...

I personally think that the so called "contemporary" music, and
particularly that which is based in calling noise music, does not do
more than move the noise of cities (cars, motorcycles, planes, etc.) to
instruments and present them as music... a walk through my city's
downtown would be a great concert to this generation of revolutionary
musicians... and I'm saying this as someone making music with computers
since 1993, and developing an operating system for musicians and artist
known as Musix GNU+Linux. The discussion is open, I don't try to supply
recipes, but I bought an acoustic guitar, an acoustic drum kit, an
electric bass, so that if the computer does not turn on I can make music
with these counter-revolutionary instruments... and what is more, lately
it is becoming more and more normal to turn off the computer and listen
with serenity the clean sound of my acoustic guitar... and at most the
songs of a bird outside...

> En una sociedad industrializada en la que la creatividad fue pasando desde los
> hombres y mujeres hacia las máquinas, no está nada mal tener un control
> potencialmente total sobre las mismas utilizando Software Libre, pero de
> algún modo es un poco hacerle el juego al sistema de producción industrial
> alienante dejar en manos de las máquinas casi toda la creatividad artística.

In an industrialized society in which creativity has been transfering
from men and women to machines, it is not a bad idea to have potentially
complete control over them using Free Software, but it is in some way
also to play the game of the alienating industrial production system
that leaves in the hands of machines most of the artistic creativity.

> Más información:
> http://www.radional.g 
> ob.pa/portal/noticia.aspx?PaginaAnterior=Noticias.Aspx&Notic iaID=50615

[Marc-Olivier Barre-2]

On 3/29/07, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano <nando@...> wrote:

> [notes from the translator - Fernando Lopez-Lezcano: there are a few
> words missing in the translation and I apologize for typos, also, this
> article is a comment on another article written by someone actually
> present at the conference, I think, the original url is at the bottom of
> this commentary]
>
> Translation follows (accuracy _not_ guaranteed :-)
>
> Let the fun begin :-)
>

It seems was way too subtle for google to handle.

Thank you very much Fernando for providing some clear translation of
an article that can now realy lead to an interesting debate.

It seems there is a bit of confusion here from the outside world.
Linux audio can also produce more "traditionnal" music, not only
experimental.

I will take my own band's music as an example. Linux (and especially
Ardour) was mostly only a means of getting a recording mixed. No sound
generation used (appart from a bass line played with zynaddsubfx on
the song named poems).

Those of you who wish can listen to it here :
http://www.myspace.com/kinokoenorbite

Cheers,
__________________
Marc-Olivier Barre,
Markinoko.

[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 14:26 -0700, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
> [notes from the translator - Fernando Lopez-Lezcano: there are a few
> words missing in the translation and I apologize for typos, also, this
> article is a comment on another article written by someone actually
> present at the conference, I think, the original url is at the bottom of
> this commentary]

Actually this looks like the original article:
  http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/spanish/misc/newsid_6500000/6500231.stm

-- Fernando

> Translation follows (accuracy _not_ guaranteed :-)
>
> Let the fun begin :-)
>
> On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 00:48 -0300, Marcos Guglielmetti wrote:
> > En este artículo presento una _crítica_ a las exageradas esperanzas puestas en
> > la informática relacionada con el futuro de la música en cuanto a su poder
> > revolucionario.
>
> This article is a _critic_ to the exagerated hope of the revolutionary
> power of informatics related to the future of music.

[MUNCH]
...

[Lee Revell]

On 3/29/07, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano <nando@...> wrote:
> > La gente puede redefinir todos los conceptos que quiera, sinceramente, pero un
> > problema al respecto será: ¿habrá oyentes para esa nueva música que tiene
> > como base conceptos redefinidos de un modo radical? El tiempo lo dirá.
>
> People can redefine all the concepts they want, really, but a problem
> is: will there be listeners for this new music that has its basis in
> radically redefined conects? Time will tell.

Great stuff, reminiscent of Henry Miller writing about Edgar Varese.
We need much, much more of this type of thing on LAU.  Bravo, Marcos
and Fernando!

One post like this makes 1000 "how do I make JACK work" threads worthwhile.

Lee

[Dave Phillips]

Lee Revell wrote:

> One post like this makes 1000 "how do I make JACK work" threads
> worthwhile.

Unless you've been around long enough to recognize its argument as a
tired thread from the 1950s. Same old, same old, whether it's a critique
of the Darmstadt composers, the post-Cage movement, or the later Soho
musicians. For that matter, it read a lot like Henry Pleasants' old book
against modern jazz.

Now if you really want to get into it, check out Slonimsky's "History Of
Musical Invective", it's a compendium of the bad reviews received by
famous composers. My favorite quote was from Max Reger, responding to an
unhappy reviewer, something like: "Dear sir, I'm sitting in the smallest
room of my house, reading your review. I have it before me now, but soon
it will all be behind me." (Sorry, I don't have the book here.)

Best,

dp

[Fons Adriaensen-2]

On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 09:05:15AM -0500, Dave Phillips wrote:

> Now if you really want to get into it, check out Slonimsky's "History Of
> Musical Invective", it's a compendium of the bad reviews received by
> famous composers. My favorite quote was from Max Reger, responding to an
> unhappy reviewer, something like: "Dear sir, I'm sitting in the smallest
> room of my house, reading your review. I have it before me now, but soon
> it will all be behind me." (Sorry, I don't have the book here.)

Wonderful.

If the review that started this thread shows anything, it would be
the eclectic (good) and divided (less good) nature of the LAC crowd.

One could wonder if the LAC would ever have been associated with
electro-acoustic music at all if the first conference had not been
organized by the ZKM, but IMHO it's a good thing.

As to this year's works, I must admit I was somewhat disappointed.
There were some interesting ones, but also much less inspired stuff.
Somehow many composers started using similar noises: scraping on
metallic objects, flocks of fladdering things, etc. At one point
I was really thinking: someone must have posted some SC3 classes
for these, and now everybody is using them...

Much of what I heared was purely noises. There seems to exists
within the community of EA music composers a fear of traditional
musical elements: rythm, melody, harmony. There is always some
structure in time, but it's very often just the same: building
up to a climax.

--
FA

Follie! Follie! Delirio vano è questo !

[Malte Steiner]

> musical elements: rythm, melody, harmony. There is always some
> structure in time, but it's very often just the same: building
> up to a climax.
>
I even missed that in some pieces, a beginning, an end and something in
between. Often pieces sounds static or like a sound demo but no moving
composition. Maybe it is a different school, I could imagine some
reasons to create pieces that static way but it is not my cup of tea.

About typical sounds, its not Linux related, I made similar observations
in other electroacoustic events which focused on other systems like Mac.
There seems to be always the synthesis du jour and suddenly you hear the
same artefacts everywhere. Maybe its sort of musical standards or riffs
like you have in other genres like Blues. Annoying was the release of
Ableton Live where suddenly every laptopper (what a word but I use it
offending, intentionally) sounds the same and claim to use granular
synthesis which is a joke, granular is much more than a bit studdering
through your properly non original samples.

But I dont blame anyone, just observations, I have to prove to myself
that I can do interesting compositions, thats more interesting and fun
instead of being negative.

Cheers,

Malte

--
Malte Steiner
media art + development
-www.block4.com-

[ken restivo-3]

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On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 06:24:07PM +0200, Malte Steiner wrote:

>
> >musical elements: rythm, melody, harmony. There is always some
> >structure in time, but it's very often just the same: building
> >up to a climax.
> >
> I even missed that in some pieces, a beginning, an end and something in
> between. Often pieces sounds static or like a sound demo but no moving
> composition. Maybe it is a different school, I could imagine some
> reasons to create pieces that static way but it is not my cup of tea.
>
> About typical sounds, its not Linux related, I made similar observations
> in other electroacoustic events which focused on other systems like Mac.
> There seems to be always the synthesis du jour and suddenly you hear the
> same artefacts everywhere. Maybe its sort of musical standards or riffs
> like you have in other genres like Blues. Annoying was the release of
> Ableton Live where suddenly every laptopper (what a word but I use it
> offending, intentionally) sounds the same and claim to use granular
> synthesis which is a joke, granular is much more than a bit studdering
> through your properly non original samples.
>

This is not unique to Linux, or to electronic music, or even to experimental or "serious" music. How many guitar-rock bands sound exactly the same? How many DJ's or rappers sound exactly the same? How many American-Idol-style singers sound exactly the same? Some new tool or genre comes out, and everyone rushes to it, and thus sounds the same. Pop music is practically defined by recycling the same sounds and cliches over and over again. And, as Dave Philips noted, complaints about experimental music sounding flat or too noisy or cacophonous or lacking compositional craft, are as old as musique concrete.

It's all just music. Different sounds affect people in different ways. Sometimes no sounds affect us in any ways... a strange, alien, and somewhat alarming phenomenon I've never experienced before but suddenly find myself wrestling with now: no music interests me any more, and everything I play sounds to me like completely unengaging, tired old crap.

- -ken
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[Paul Winkler]

On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 02:57:57PM -0700, Ken Restivo wrote:
> And, as Dave Philips noted, complaints about experimental music
> sounding flat or too noisy or cacophonous or lacking compositional
> craft, are as old as musique concrete.

Much older :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_spring#Composition_and_critical_reception

--

Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com

[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 00:48 -0300, Marcos Guglielmetti wrote:
> [notes from the translator - Fernando Lopez-Lezcano: there are a few
> words missing in the translation and I apologize for typos, also, this
> article is a comment on another article written by someone actually
> present at the conference, I think, the original url is at the bottom of
> this commentary]
>
> Translation follows (accuracy _not_ guaranteed :-)
>
> Let the fun begin :-)

[as has been noted in this thread already these arguments date back
a long time and have appeared whenever something completely different[*]
appears in scene - I'm not saying anything here is "completely new"
but you get the point, still, I'll bite and add something :-]

[*] oh well, or even "slightly different"

> On Thu, 2007-03-29 at 00:48 -0300, Marcos Guglielmetti wrote:
>
> > Nuevamente la -a mí parecer- exagerada esperanza en el ruido, el optimismo un
> > tanto ridículo por la creatividad que tienen las máquinas, lo cual esconde,
> > creo yo, una bancarrota estético-compositiva en ciertos grupos, en ciertas
> > escuelas, en ciertas academias, en ciertas ideologías que pretenden que lo
> > único importante en materia artística es innovar, cuando quizá lo
> > verdaderamente importante sea 1º expresar lo que uno desea, 2º pasar un buen
> > momento.
>
> Again - to me - the exagerated hope in the noise, the somewhat
> ridiculous optimism in the creativity of machines, who hides, I think, a
> stetical and compositive bankrupcy in certain schools, certain
> academies, certain ideologies that pretend that the only thing important
> in artistic matters is to innovate, when perhaps the really important
> stuff would be 1st express what one wants to say, 2nd have a good time.
> ...

[MUNCH]

> ...
> > En una sociedad industrializada en la que la creatividad fue pasando desde los
> > hombres y mujeres hacia las máquinas, no está nada mal tener un control
> > potencialmente total sobre las mismas utilizando Software Libre, pero de
> > algún modo es un poco hacerle el juego al sistema de producción industrial
> > alienante dejar en manos de las máquinas casi toda la creatividad artística.
>
> In an industrialized society in which creativity has been transfering
> from men and women to machines, it is not a bad idea to have potentially
> complete control over them using Free Software, but it is in some way
> also to play the game of the alienating industrial production system
> that leaves in the hands of machines most of the artistic creativity.

You seem to think artists are actually delegating creativity to machines.
How so? Could you give some examples? Perhaps there are composers out
there that rely on the "creativity of machines", but I presume there are
actually not that many. At least in my music I don't rely on something
that I think does not exist :-) I do use (sometimes) algorithms to generate
statistical stuff where merely aggregating notes by hand would not make sense
and stuff like that. Hardly delegating "creativity".

Algorithms and computers (well used) can be triggers of creativity
if you are listening to what you try to do and spot "mistakes" that may
point to stuff you would never have tried on your own.

Other composers that were at LAC2007 may want to comment on this as well.
[just fanning the flames here :-]

Obviously all the email threads we can write boil down to an ultimate
"show me the music", echoing the lkml (Linux Kernel Mailing List) "show
me the code" motto. And as you say, time will tell. Some of the so called
music (ha ha ha) will die, some will be remembered either through genius
or accident, and maybe _not_ what we would choose today to be
remembered :-) We just do our art as well as we can and that should
(but never is) enough.

> > Nótese que el cronista habla de "es un mundo algo inhóspito", sin melodías, ni
> > más ni menos que el microcentro de Buenos Aires, por ejemplo. ¿Por qué
> > duplicar ese ruido?
>
> Note that the guy who writes talks about a "a somewhat inhospitable
> world", without melodies, no more or less than the downtown area in
> Buenos Aires, for example. Why duplicate that noise?
>
> > Personalmente pienso que la música llamada "contemporánea", y en particular
> > esa que se basa en llamar música al ruido, no hace más que trasladar el ruido
> > de las ciudades (autos, motos, aviones, etc.) a los instrumentos y
> > presentarlo si fuera música... sin ir más lejos, una caminata por el centro
> > de mi ciudad sería un gran concierto para toda esta generación de músicos
> > revolucionarios...
>
> I personally think that the so called "contemporary" music, and
> particularly that which is based in calling noise music, does not do
> more than move the noise of cities (cars, motorcycles, planes, etc.) to
> instruments and present them as music... a walk through my city's
> downtown would be a great concert to this generation of revolutionary
> musicians...

Ha, it actually could be if your ears are open. And sorry to say, I'm
not even close to being revolutionary :-)

You should listen to Francisco Kropfl's "Metropolis" (if I remember the
name and other particulars right). It is exactly that, a 40 minute long
city soundscape of, guess what, Buenos Aires. Maybe you have listened to
it already and it did not touch you. In my case it riveted me to my seat
for the duration, most of the time with a smile in my face. My memory of it
is that of a powerful and emotionally evocative trip, tugging at my insides
all the time. Superbly crafted as well. Obviously the emotional impact
to someone not from Buenos Aires would be less... To me that piece was/is
art.

Art like that is not merely a duplication of the noise. It is a directed
reinterpretation. With a purpose and large scale forms. Of course it
_could_ be bad and just a thoughtless recording of reality, but bad art
happens all the time without the help of machines as well.

-- Fernando

[clinart]

<<..phenomenon I've never experienced before but suddenly find myself
wrestling with now: no music interests me any more, and everything I
play sounds to me like completely unengaging, tired old crap.<<

That must suck.  For me it's about beauty -- music is just one path
from here to there.

On 3/30/07, Ken Restivo <ken@...> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 06:24:07PM +0200, Malte Steiner wrote:
> >
> > >musical elements: rythm, melody, harmony. There is always some
> > >structure in time, but it's very often just the same: building
> > >up to a climax.
> > >
> > I even missed that in some pieces, a beginning, an end and something in
> > between. Often pieces sounds static or like a sound demo but no moving
> > composition. Maybe it is a different school, I could imagine some
> > reasons to create pieces that static way but it is not my cup of tea.
> >
> > About typical sounds, its not Linux related, I made similar observations
> > in other electroacoustic events which focused on other systems like Mac.
> > There seems to be always the synthesis du jour and suddenly you hear the
> > same artefacts everywhere. Maybe its sort of musical standards or riffs
> > like you have in other genres like Blues. Annoying was the release of
> > Ableton Live where suddenly every laptopper (what a word but I use it
> > offending, intentionally) sounds the same and claim to use granular
> > synthesis which is a joke, granular is much more than a bit studdering
> > through your properly non original samples.
> >
>
> This is not unique to Linux, or to electronic music, or even to experimental or "serious" music. How many guitar-rock bands sound exactly the same? How many DJ's or rappers sound exactly the same? How many American-Idol-style singers sound exactly the same? Some new tool or genre comes out, and everyone rushes to it, and thus sounds the same. Pop music is practically defined by recycling the same sounds and cliches over and over again. And, as Dave Philips noted, complaints about experimental music sounding flat or too noisy or cacophonous or lacking compositional craft, are as old as musique concrete.
>
> It's all just music. Different sounds affect people in different ways. Sometimes no sounds affect us in any ways... a strange, alien, and somewhat alarming phenomenon I've never experienced before but suddenly find myself wrestling with now: no music interests me any more, and everything I play sounds to me like completely unengaging, tired old crap.
>
> - -ken
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>
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> =aOYh
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>

[david-602]

Go listen to something you've never listened before. Listen to something
you've listened to in the past but really really hated - and listen for
what make you hate it AND for what you like in it.

Go to the country side and listen to spring.

Charles Linart wrote:

> <<..phenomenon I've never experienced before but suddenly find myself
> wrestling with now: no music interests me any more, and everything I
> play sounds to me like completely unengaging, tired old crap.<<
>
> That must suck.  For me it's about beauty -- music is just one path
> from here to there.
>
> On 3/30/07, Ken Restivo <ken@...> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 30, 2007 at 06:24:07PM +0200, Malte Steiner wrote:
>> >
>> > >musical elements: rythm, melody, harmony. There is always some
>> > >structure in time, but it's very often just the same: building
>> > >up to a climax.
>> > >
>> > I even missed that in some pieces, a beginning, an end and something in
>> > between. Often pieces sounds static or like a sound demo but no moving
>> > composition. Maybe it is a different school, I could imagine some
>> > reasons to create pieces that static way but it is not my cup of tea.
>> >
>> > About typical sounds, its not Linux related, I made similar
>> observations
>> > in other electroacoustic events which focused on other systems like
>> Mac.
>> > There seems to be always the synthesis du jour and suddenly you hear
>> the
>> > same artefacts everywhere. Maybe its sort of musical standards or riffs
>> > like you have in other genres like Blues. Annoying was the release of
>> > Ableton Live where suddenly every laptopper (what a word but I use it
>> > offending, intentionally) sounds the same and claim to use granular
>> > synthesis which is a joke, granular is much more than a bit studdering
>> > through your properly non original samples.
>> >
>>
>> This is not unique to Linux, or to electronic music, or even to
>> experimental or "serious" music. How many guitar-rock bands sound
>> exactly the same? How many DJ's or rappers sound exactly the same? How
>> many American-Idol-style singers sound exactly the same? Some new tool
>> or genre comes out, and everyone rushes to it, and thus sounds the
>> same. Pop music is practically defined by recycling the same sounds
>> and cliches over and over again. And, as Dave Philips noted,
>> complaints about experimental music sounding flat or too noisy or
>> cacophonous or lacking compositional craft, are as old as musique
>> concrete.
>>
>> It's all just music. Different sounds affect people in different ways.
>> Sometimes no sounds affect us in any ways... a strange, alien, and
>> somewhat alarming phenomenon I've never experienced before but
>> suddenly find myself wrestling with now: no music interests me any
>> more, and everything I play sounds to me like completely unengaging,
>> tired old crap.
>>
>> - -ken
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
>>
>> iD8DBQFGDYfle8HF+6xeOIcRAgyuAKC5lTUTRn/01CHGIyLpyMeVSSl/eACgrxW6
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>> =aOYh
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>

--
David
gnome@...
authenticity, honesty, community

[Tim Howard]

> > Again - to me - the exagerated hope in the noise, the somewhat
> > ridiculous optimism in the creativity of machines, who hides, I think, a
> > stetical and compositive bankrupcy in certain schools, certain
> > academies, certain ideologies that pretend that the only thing important
> > in artistic matters is to innovate, when perhaps the really important
> > stuff would be 1st express what one wants to say, 2nd have a good time.
> > ...
> [MUNCH]
> > ...
> > > En una sociedad industrializada en la que la creatividad fue pasando desde los
> > > hombres y mujeres hacia las máquinas, no está nada mal tener un control
> > > potencialmente total sobre las mismas utilizando Software Libre, pero de
> > > algún modo es un poco hacerle el juego al sistema de producción industrial
> > > alienante dejar en manos de las máquinas casi toda la creatividad artística.
> >
> > In an industrialized society in which creativity has been transfering
> > from men and women to machines, it is not a bad idea to have potentially
> > complete control over them using Free Software, but it is in some way
> > also to play the game of the alienating industrial production system
> > that leaves in the hands of machines most of the artistic creativity.
>
> You seem to think artists are actually delegating creativity to machines.
> How so? Could you give some examples? Perhaps there are composers out
> there that rely on the "creativity of machines", but I presume there are
> actually not that many. At least in my music I don't rely on something
> that I think does not exist :-) I do use (sometimes) algorithms to generate
> statistical stuff where merely aggregating notes by hand would not make sense
> and stuff like that. Hardly delegating "creativity".
>

That reminds me of a music appreciation class I took in college...
The instructor was trying to define music, and ended up in the
circular logic loop of: "Music is what differentiates humans from
animals.  Therefore, in order for something to be music, it has to be
of human origin..."

Trying to define music or quantify creativity is like measuring
beauty.  Everyone has a different standard.  <fakerant>AND BY THE WAY,
EVERYONE ELSE'S STANDARD IS WRONG!</fakerant>

-TimH

[Marcos Guglielmetti]

El Jue 29 Mar 2007 10:39, Marc-Olivier Barre escribió:
 | On 3/29/07, Marcos Guglielmetti <marcospcmusica@...> wrote:
 | > En este artículo presento una _crítica_ a las exageradas esperanzas
 | > puestas en la informática relacionada con el futuro de la música en
 | > cuanto a su poder revolucionario.
 | >
 | > (http://www.mastermagazine.info/articulo/11483.php)
 | >
 | > GNU/Linux Audio Conference en Berlín
 | > 28/03/2007
 | > Autor: (marcos) Marcos Guglielmetti
 | >
 | > Los músicos aparentemente están revolucionando la música electrónica con
 | > programas y con instrumentos realizados por ellos mismos.
 |
 | Hi Marcos,
 |
 | Though it is a very good idea to have a copy of your article posted on
 | the list, it is a shame that most of us will not be able to understand
 | it. Could you provide us with some insight ?


Yes I could, but: it's no so brilliant... ok... and my english is not good

It is a criticize to some optimistic words on this article:

http://www.radional.gob.pa/portal/noticia.aspx?PaginaAnterior=Noticias.Aspx&NoticiaID=50615

So I am asking

* Could the computing revolution really revolutionize the music?

And I think:

* The noise music tendency into LAC maybe it's just like a copy of the urban
noise from the downtown's big cities: why you should make noise?

and many more thing, but it's too difficult for me to write those things...

* I think that Free Software, as in freedom, gives you a potential total
control over the machines, so: why you should let the machines such power of
creativeness? it's like playing the game of the industrial society, and the
alienation of the workers.

 | I'm not asking for a full
 | translation, only a summary of the headlines (if you have some spare
 | time of course).
 |
 | Thanks again for your post, and for this article.
 |
 | Regards,
 | __________________
 | Marc-Olivier Barre,
 | Markinoko.

Thanks you ! Maybe a google traslation could help...

Regards

--
Marcos Guglielmetti  
* Director del desarrollo de Musix GNU+Linux, 100% Software Libre
* CD Download: (http://www.musix.org.ar/en/)
* Colabora: http://www.musix.org.ar/wiki/index.php/Musix099_tasks
* Videos, programas y otras cosas en: ftp://musix.ourproject.org/pub/musix/
* Reporte de errores a:
https://www.musix.org.ar/wiki/index.php?title=Problemas-Bugs
*IRC: #musix channel on freenode
* http://autosus.wordpress.com/

«No te tomes en serio nada que no te haga reír» [un amigo de E. Galeano]