[Bug 8220] New: Remove microdata

http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8220

           Summary: Remove microdata
           Product: HTML WG
           Version: unspecified
          Platform: PC
        OS/Version: Windows XP
            Status: NEW
          Severity: normal
          Priority: P2
         Component: HTML5 spec bugs
        AssignedTo: dave.null@...
        ReportedBy: ht@...
         QAContact: public-html-bugzilla@...
                CC: ian@..., mike@..., public-html@..., www-
                    tag@...


The TAG requests that the microdata feature be removed from the specification.  
 * It is out of scope
 * It conflicts with the RDFa specification which is in considerable and
increasing deployment and is already a W3C Recommendation
 * The modularity of the both the design and document is damaged
 * The issue of putting data into HTML5 documents is sufficiently separate
functionality that it would be better to have a separate document which people
interested in data can review without having to read the rest of the space
 * Metadata architecture is complex; real world widely deployed metadata
management systems have demonstrated that distributed extensibility is even
more important for metadata than for markup, since each organization and
community has different desires for metainformation even if they share common
understanding of the data
 * The microformat bits in fact overlap with, and would need review by,
dramatically separate communities such as calendaring (iCalendar etc), contact
(vCard etc)
 * The embedding of this specification within HTML5 hinders the involvement of
the Web Content Management community

The TAG endorses the change proposal in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/0773.html with respect
to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76

[submitted by and on behalf of the TAG]


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http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8220


Michael(tm) Smith <mike@...> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
           Keywords|                            |NE




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http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8220


Shawn Medero <soypunk@...> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |soypunk@...




--- Comment #1 from Shawn Medero <soypunk@...>  2009-11-06 19:40:06 ---
This should be connected to ISSUE-76:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76


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http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8220


Ian 'Hixie' Hickson <ian@...> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|NEW                         |RESOLVED
         Resolution|                            |DUPLICATE




--- Comment #2 from Ian 'Hixie' Hickson <ian@...>  2009-12-09 17:29:18 ---


*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 7542 ***


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[noah_mendelsohn]

The subject line of this note is a bit of an oversimplification.  As best
I can tell, what has happened is:

* The TAG opened HTML 5 bug 8220 [1]: "The TAG requests that the microdata
feature be removed from the specification.  "

* As noted in the attached email, that bug is now closed as a duplicate of
bug 7542 [2].

* The status of bug 7542 is Status:  RESOLVED Resolution: WONTFIX

I plan to schedule discussion of this on an upcoming TAG teleconference,
presumably next Thursday the 17th of December.  The TAG can then decide
whether we find this resolution to be acceptable.  Thank you.

Noah

[1] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8220
[2] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7542

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------








bugzilla@...
Sent by: www-tag-request@...
12/09/2009 12:29 PM
 
        To:     www-tag@...
        cc:     (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
        Subject:        [Bug 8220] Remove microdata


http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8220


Ian 'Hixie' Hickson <ian@...> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Status|NEW                         |RESOLVED
         Resolution|                            |DUPLICATE




--- Comment #2 from Ian 'Hixie' Hickson <ian@...>  2009-12-09
17:29:18 ---


*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 7542 ***


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[Julian Reschke]

noah_mendelsohn@... wrote:
> The subject line of this note is a bit of an oversimplification.  As best
> I can tell, what has happened is:
>
> * The TAG opened HTML 5 bug 8220 [1]: "The TAG requests that the microdata
> feature be removed from the specification.  "
>
> * As noted in the attached email, that bug is now closed as a duplicate of
> bug 7542 [2].

...by the editor, not by the Working Group.

It's tracked as ISSUE-76, <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76>.

There's currently a poll going on, see Maciej's announcement in
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Dec/0330.html>.

 > ..
> * The status of bug 7542 is Status:  RESOLVED Resolution: WONTFIX

To be fair, it also has the keyword "TrackerIssue", which means that the
bug now is tracked in Tracker.

> I plan to schedule discussion of this on an upcoming TAG teleconference,
> presumably next Thursday the 17th of December.  The TAG can then decide
> whether we find this resolution to be acceptable.  Thank you.
>
> Noah
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8220
> [2] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7542
> ...

Best regards, Julian

(note that I agree with the request to remove Microdata, just trying the
explain what's going on)

[noah_mendelsohn]

Julian Reschke wrote:

> just trying the explain what's going on

Very much appreciated.  I was not at all presuming that something
inappropriate had happened, but trying to make sure that the TAG was aware
(to the extent I understood) what was happening procedurally.

> [the bug was marked closed]...by the editor, not by the Working Group.
>
> It's tracked as ISSUE-76, <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76>.
>
> There's currently a poll going on, see Maciej's announcement in

Thank you, that's very helpful information

> To be fair, it also has the keyword "TrackerIssue", which means that
> the bug now is tracked in Tracker.

Um, as someone who is not deep into the workings of the HTML 5 working
group, it's not entirely clear to me what the significance is of getting a
message from bugzilla saying a bug is closed, and then being alerged that
it's being "tracked in tracker", but I'm willing to assume informally that
it's some sort of good sign that our concerns are still being considered.
If there are things I need to know about the WG's simultaneous use of
those two tracking systems, and the significance of having a "bug that is
now tracked in Tracker" marked closed in Bugzilla, I suppose it would be
worth me taking the time to learn.  I do understand that HTML 5 is a very
complex undertaking, and there may be good reasons that some of the
tracking systems are less than transparent from the outside.  Thank you.

Noah

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------








Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@...>
12/11/2009 04:47 PM
 
        To:     noah_mendelsohn@...
        cc:     www-tag@..., Paul Cotton <pcotton@...>,
Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@...>, rubys@..., Ian Hickson
<ian@...>
        Subject:        Re: HTML 5 Working Group closes without action TAG
request to remove microdata


noah_mendelsohn@... wrote:
> The subject line of this note is a bit of an oversimplification.  As
best
> I can tell, what has happened is:
>
> * The TAG opened HTML 5 bug 8220 [1]: "The TAG requests that the
microdata
> feature be removed from the specification.  "
>
> * As noted in the attached email, that bug is now closed as a duplicate
of
> bug 7542 [2].

...by the editor, not by the Working Group.

It's tracked as ISSUE-76, <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76>.

There's currently a poll going on, see Maciej's announcement in
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Dec/0330.html>.

 > ..
> * The status of bug 7542 is Status:  RESOLVED Resolution: WONTFIX

To be fair, it also has the keyword "TrackerIssue", which means that the
bug now is tracked in Tracker.

> I plan to schedule discussion of this on an upcoming TAG teleconference,

> presumably next Thursday the 17th of December.  The TAG can then decide
> whether we find this resolution to be acceptable.  Thank you.
>
> Noah
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8220
> [2] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7542
> ...

Best regards, Julian

(note that I agree with the request to remove Microdata, just trying the
explain what's going on)

[Anne van Kesteren-2]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:33:15 +0100, <noah_mendelsohn@...> wrote:
> * The status of bug 7542 is Status:  RESOLVED Resolution: WONTFIX

Note that it turned into a tracker issue (as mentioned in the bug report):

   http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76


--
Anne van Kesteren
http://annevankesteren.nl/

[Ian Hickson]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 noah_mendelsohn@... wrote:
>
> Um, as someone who is not deep into the workings of the HTML 5 working
> group, it's not entirely clear to me what the significance is of getting a
> message from bugzilla saying a bug is closed, and then being alerged that
> it's being "tracked in tracker", but I'm willing to assume informally that
> it's some sort of good sign that our concerns are still being considered.

Yeah sorry about that, I didn't realise the bug that I had marked it as a
duplicate of hadn't gotten the boilerplate.

The text you were _supposed_ to get is:

-----8<-----
EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you
are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to
CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to
reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the
issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest
keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or
you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For
more details, see this document:
   http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html
-----8<-----

...and the presence of the TrackerIssue keyword means that the escalation
process is ongoing. In fact, as others have noted, the process has
progressed to near the state of completion:

   http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-76-objection-poll/
   http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-76-objection-poll/results

(This is why I closed the bug; it is counter to our process for there to
be an open bug requesting the same as an open tracker issue.)

A working group chair decision on the matter is expected probably before
the end of the year (the poll ends next Thursday, and the chairs meet on
Tuesdays to discuss matters such as this, so one could expect a decision
to be announced by the 23rd).

HTH,
--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

[noah_mendelsohn]

This is very helpful, thank you.  As a heads up to anyone who is
interested in seeing where this stands, I suggest you do take the trouble
to read Ian's note in detail, and in particular to follow his link to the
page at which poll results are being gathered.

Noah

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------








Ian Hickson <ian@...>
12/11/2009 05:54 PM
 
        To:     noah_mendelsohn@...
        cc:     Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@...>, Paul Cotton
<pcotton@...>, rubys@..., www-tag@...
        Subject:        Re: HTML 5 Working Group closes without action TAG
request to remove microdata


On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 noah_mendelsohn@... wrote:
>
> Um, as someone who is not deep into the workings of the HTML 5 working
> group, it's not entirely clear to me what the significance is of getting
a
> message from bugzilla saying a bug is closed, and then being alerged
that
> it's being "tracked in tracker", but I'm willing to assume informally
that
> it's some sort of good sign that our concerns are still being
considered.

Yeah sorry about that, I didn't realise the bug that I had marked it as a
duplicate of hadn't gotten the boilerplate.

The text you were _supposed_ to get is:

-----8<-----
EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you
are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to
CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to
reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the
issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest
keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue; or
you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For
more details, see this document:
   http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html
-----8<-----

...and the presence of the TrackerIssue keyword means that the escalation
process is ongoing. In fact, as others have noted, the process has
progressed to near the state of completion:

   http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-76-objection-poll/
   http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-76-objection-poll/results

(This is why I closed the bug; it is counter to our process for there to
be an open bug requesting the same as an open tracker issue.)

A working group chair decision on the matter is expected probably before
the end of the year (the poll ends next Thursday, and the chairs meet on
Tuesdays to discuss matters such as this, so one could expect a decision
to be announced by the 23rd).

HTH,
--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

[Maciej Stachowiak]

On Dec 11, 2009, at 4:25 PM, noah_mendelsohn@... wrote:

> This is very helpful, thank you.  As a heads up to anyone who is
> interested in seeing where this stands, I suggest you do take the  
> trouble
> to read Ian's note in detail, and in particular to follow his link  
> to the
> page at which poll results are being gathered.

In case the TAG collectively or any TAG members individually are  
interested in following HTML WG issues, you can see the full details  
of our process here:
http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html

You can see detailed status for where individual issues are in the  
process here:
http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html

The short version of the process is this:

1) Issues are initially fielded by an editor, and if anyone disputes  
the editor's initial response, they are escalated to the Working Group  
as a while.
2) We use bugzilla to track requests to the editor.
3) We use the W3C issue tracker to track issues that are escalated to  
the Working Group.

Thus, you may see some bugs get closed and tagged TrackerIssue when  
they are escalated.

Regards,
Maciej

[noah_mendelsohn]

Ian Hickson wrote:

> Yeah sorry about that, I didn't realise the bug that I had marked it as
a
> duplicate of hadn't gotten the boilerplate.
>
> The text you were _supposed_ to get is:
>
> -----8<-----
> EDITOR'S RESPONSE: This is an Editor's Response to your comment. If you
> are satisfied with this response, please change the state of this bug to

> CLOSED. If you have additional information and would like the editor to
> reconsider, please reopen this bug. If you would like to escalate the
> issue to the full HTML Working Group, please add the TrackerRequest
> keyword to this bug, and suggest title and text for the tracker issue;
or
> you may create a tracker issue yourself, if you are able to do so. For
> more details, see this document:
>    http://dev.w3.org/html5/decision-policy/decision-policy.html
> -----8<-----
>
> ...and the presence of the TrackerIssue keyword means that the
escalation
> process is ongoing.

No problem, much appreciated.  Thank you.

I'm sure I read about the bugzilla/tracker split when the policy was
announced by the chairs, but I confess I did not commit it all to memory.
Thanks for the clarification and the quick response.

Noah

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------