[CSG] Crediting samples of classical
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[CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by Chad Wilson-2
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Hi CSG nuts!
As much as this will possibly disturb many of you, I am trying to credit a sample from the Young Buck track "Say It to My Face" [1] back to a Mozart composition. (try it some time, dope track [2]) The sample is credited as: "Contains samples from "Requiem K 626, Rex Tremendae Majestatis" & "Requiem K 626 Confutatis (Motzart)". Performed by Wolfgang Amadeus Motzart. Used courtesy of Fantasy Records. UBP. ARR." Apart from the fact that this means nothing to me, I have a few questions/assertions. - I assume "performed by WAM" is likely to be technically incorrect, and just labels/liner writers being dorks, but I don't really know. - in that case, is it even possible to guess who the performers are, and thus which the correct tracks to link are? - can one infer anything from "Fantasy Records"? - or is this just a case that would better wait until we can AR to works in the future, ignoring the performer? I am quite keen to add a track-track AR link though. Build a bridge between classical and thug rap, and all that. ;-) Any ideas? Chad / voice [1] http://musicbrainz.org/track/4777d276-b080-4929-86c4-c8bdf1965532.html [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu1eDW8iS8I -- Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3.5 - sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/chbrowser _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by Brian Schweitzer
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I've run into something similar in the past, with the problem being "what do you link to, to show that a live rock bootleg's performance of (some classical work) is a cover of that classical work?" Imho, without works to link to, there's not really any way to do it, just as you suggest.
Brian On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 10:59 PM, Chad Wilson <chad.wilson@...> wrote: Hi CSG nuts! _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by leivhe
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Chad Wilson wrote:
> Hi CSG nuts! this must be some ploy to make us agree on something, it will not work! > > As much as this will possibly disturb many of you, I am trying to credit a sample from the Young Buck track "Say It to My Face" [1] back to a Mozart composition. (try it some time, dope track [2]) > > The sample is credited as: > > "Contains samples from "Requiem K 626, Rex Tremendae Majestatis" & "Requiem K 626 Confutatis (Motzart)". Performed by Wolfgang Amadeus Motzart. Used courtesy of Fantasy Records. UBP. ARR." > > Apart from the fact that this means nothing to me, I have a few questions/assertions. > - I assume "performed by WAM" is likely to be technically incorrect, and just labels/liner writers being dorks, but I don't really know. > - in that case, is it even possible to guess who the performers are, and thus which the correct tracks to link are? > - can one infer anything from "Fantasy Records"? Yes, I think so. From a cursory glance, Fantasy Records don't seem to deal with classical, but http://www.google.com/search?q=%22fantasy+records%22+requiem points in the direction of the soundtrack to the movie Amadeus, and here the tracks are, performers and all: http://musicbrainz.org/release/ef945ad9-0cae-41c7-a14b-056ee8ff4eb4.html http://musicbrainz.org/release/581a472e-932d-46df-a75a-2859edb2f4e5.html (The first disc of "The Complete Original Soundtrack" has a release event credited the label "Fantasy", confirmed by the ASINs.) My gut instinct tells me this is the one, but of course I only spent a minute digging it up... > - or is this just a case that would better wait until we can AR to works in the future, ignoring the performer? To represent the audio on your track, it would be more significant to somehow hook this up with the right work, than with the right performer or label. But of course what you want is the correct track, where you get it all: work, composer, performer and sound-copyright-holding-label. > I am quite keen to add a track-track AR link though. Build a bridge between classical and thug rap, and all that. ;-) Is that really necessary? Let's wait a century to see if people still take rap seriously :p leivhe _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by Frederic Da Vitoria
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2009/10/29 Leiv Hellebo <leiv.hellebo@...> Chad Wilson wrote: Not very kind for rap ;-) Seriously, I'd resist adding a track-track AR if I weren't positively sure that this was the exact recording the sample was taken from. Leiv's detective work is impressive but I'd still need at least to listen to both versions and even then, if the sample(s) is(are) too short to decide, I'd only add an annotation instead of an AR. -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by leivhe
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Frederic Da Vitoria wrote:
> 2009/10/29 Leiv Hellebo <> Let's wait a century to see if people still > take rap seriously :p > > Not very kind for rap ;-) Hm. I tried to end with a humorous punchline, but I see that mock-turning-down a bridging initiative is hard to do without appearing nasty. Sorry about that! leivhe (who still considers Fear of a Black Planet to be a sonic revelation!) _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by Chad Wilson-2
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Thanks a lot for your replies guys.
> > The sample is credited as: > > > > "Contains samples from "Requiem K 626, Rex Tremendae Majestatis" & > "Requiem K 626 Confutatis (Motzart)". Performed by Wolfgang Amadeus Motzart. > Used courtesy of Fantasy Records. UBP. ARR." > > - can one infer anything from "Fantasy Records"? > > Yes, I think so. From a cursory glance, Fantasy Records don't seem to > deal with classical, but > > http://www.google.com/search?q=%22fantasy+records%22+requiem > > points in the direction of the soundtrack to the movie Amadeus, and here > the tracks are, performers and all: > > http://musicbrainz.org/release/ef945ad9-0cae-41c7-a14b-056ee8ff4eb4.html > http://musicbrainz.org/release/581a472e-932d-46df-a75a-2859edb2f4e5.html > > (The first disc of "The Complete Original Soundtrack" has a release > event credited the label "Fantasy", confirmed by the ASINs.) > > My gut instinct tells me this is the one, but of course I only spent a > minute digging it up... Awesome stuff. Excuse my ignorance, but would there be a noticeable difference between those two versions of the score, or, assuming it could be confirmed to be correct, would I just link to the original earlier 84 release? For anyone who wants to help me confirm, the notable samples are at A) 0:00-0:12 B) 0:50-0:59 (and looping every 11-12 seconds or so) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu1eDW8iS8I I believe sample A comes from 1:42 - 1:54 of Rex Tremendae http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAf_qSG7WE I believe sample B comes from the first 12 seconds of Confutatis (heh) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lav_lDJ2LM Sufficient proof to link, davitof and leivhe? > To represent the audio on your track, it would be more significant to > somehow hook this up with the right work, than with the right performer > or label. > > But of course what you want is the correct track, where you get it all: > work, composer, performer and sound-copyright-holding-label. With samples, it often doesn't actually matter so much. This is another big topic unrelated to Classical that I want to delve into at some point with style, but many of our sample ARs are currently slightly inaccurate. Sometimes there are straight samples. Other times the credits are for "contains elements of", "interpolations from", "re-interpretations of". All need to be specifically licensed, but in my understanding they're not all technically samples. A re-interpretation, for example, is often just replaying the original composition to create a new sample. The track will often sound like it's just a distorted/modified sample, but in reality it's like a sample cover :p So in that kind of case, it probably makes more sense to link to the work, rather than a specific recording on a specific label. Also consider that most of the time it's impossible to know, and sometimes irrelevant which specific version of a song a sample is taken from. Old funk/soul tracks split into two parts, for example - where the drum beat is sampled, but the same for each part. A long and short version of the original track, instrumental vs. vocal version is often irrelevant for a drum sample. Anyway, I guess I'm illustrating that I think if the benefit of the doubt goes towards it being a particular version; the important thing is to get the link to the earliest release of the track with the right name, composer and performers. :) It's often not possible to have 100% certainty of the recording it came from; especially in the world of uncredited or unlicensed samples, which still includes the majority of hip hop as far as I can see from my liners. > > Is that really necessary? Let's wait a century to see if people still > > take rap seriously :p > Hm. I tried to end with a humorous punchline, but I see that > mock-turning-down a bridging initiative is hard to do without appearing > nasty. No, no, I laughed. But I still ask you this - WHAT HAS MOZART DONE LATELY LOL HE'S SO LAST CENTRRY HA HA HA > (who still considers Fear of a Black Planet to be a sonic revelation!) True dat. Chad / voice -- Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3.5 - sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by Andrew Conkling
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On Oct 29, 2009, at 22:20, Chad Wilson wrote:
> For anyone who wants to help me confirm, the notable samples are at > > A) 0:00-0:12 > B) 0:50-0:59 (and looping every 11-12 seconds or so) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu1eDW8iS8I > > I believe sample A comes from 1:42 - 1:54 of Rex Tremendae > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAf_qSG7WE > > I believe sample B comes from the first 12 seconds of Confutatis (heh) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lav_lDJ2LM Yeah, I'd say those are pretty convincing, though it sounds possibly like the Confutatis' speed could be altered. >> Hm. I tried to end with a humorous punchline, but I see that >> mock-turning-down a bridging initiative is hard to do without >> appearing >> nasty. > > No, no, I laughed. But I still ask you this - WHAT HAS MOZART DONE > LATELY LOL HE'S SO LAST CENTRRY HA HA HA I have to say it's pretty funny that "Confutatis maledictis, flammis acribus addictis: voca me cum benedictis" is relegated to the background while Young Buck says, "It gotta be the cars or the trips that i take / That make em wanna hate, won't you say it in my face bitch". WHOS THE WICKED NOW? ;) _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by Chad Wilson-2
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Andrew Conkling wrote:
> On Oct 29, 2009, at 22:20, Chad Wilson wrote: > > >> For anyone who wants to help me confirm, the notable samples are at >> >> A) 0:00-0:12 >> B) 0:50-0:59 (and looping every 11-12 seconds or so) >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu1eDW8iS8I >> >> I believe sample A comes from 1:42 - 1:54 of Rex Tremendae >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAf_qSG7WE >> >> I believe sample B comes from the first 12 seconds of Confutatis (heh) >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lav_lDJ2LM >> > > Yeah, I'd say those are pretty convincing, though it sounds possibly > like the Confutatis' speed could be altered. > Well, I've created some edits so if you guys would like to express your opinions there, that'd be cool: http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=11391491 http://musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=11391492 > > I have to say it's pretty funny that "Confutatis maledictis, flammis > acribus addictis: voca me cum benedictis" is relegated to the > background while Young Buck says, "It gotta be the cars or the trips > that i take / That make em wanna hate, won't you say it in my face > bitch". WHOS THE WICKED NOW? > I wonder if it's irony that would be lost on Young Buck; or whether the producer, Jigg(alo), deserves more credit than we might give him for inspired used of relegated Latin :-) Chad _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by Frederic Da Vitoria
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2009/10/30 Chad Wilson <chad.wilson@...>
Thanks a lot for your replies guys. Very difficult. I listened carefully. Of course, YouTube extracts are far from ideal for this kind of work. What is worse, both samples are from choir extracts which are IMO more difficult to identify than solo extracts. Sample A is long and clear enough that I can get a feeling that it is not the same recording, or the balance has been modified so much that I believe it is not. I hear a difference near the end of the sample, where in the Amadeus soundtrack I hear mostly what I believe to be an organ, covering the choir, while in the sample I hear a much lower organ and maybe strings. Difficult to explain, but very different balance. I guess this kind of modification could be obtained, maybe it comes entirely from difference in how the YouTube clips were made, but still, I don't hear the same thing. The second sample is of course much more difficult : shorter and covered with other sounds. Maybe yes (and it was slightly accelerated) or maybe it was taken from another part of the soundtrack where the same musical motif would appears, maybe from another recording...
Definitely. Also consider that most of the time it's impossible to know, and sometimes irrelevant which specific version of a song a sample is taken from. Old funk/soul tracks split into two parts, for example - where the drum beat is sampled, but the same for each part. A long and short version of the original track, instrumental vs. vocal version is often irrelevant for a drum sample. Still, I wish we could add a confidence note to this kind of AR: in this case, it would be pretty low :-)
Well, few artists ever did anything after their death :-) -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by leivhe
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Chad Wilson wrote:
>> http://musicbrainz.org/release/ef945ad9-0cae-41c7-a14b-056ee8ff4eb4.html >> http://musicbrainz.org/release/581a472e-932d-46df-a75a-2859edb2f4e5.html >> > Awesome stuff. Excuse my ignorance, but would there be a noticeable difference between those two versions of the score, or, assuming it could be confirmed to be correct, would I just link to the original earlier 84 release? Not sure what you mean by "two versions of the score". But I bet that these four tracks (if not all tracks on both releases) have (P) 84 +/- one year. This would be more difficult if the remastered edition (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00005Y1SV) contained these tracks, but luckily it doesn't. Even if it did, perhaps it would still be useful to link to the first. leivhe _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by leivhe
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Frederic Da Vitoria wrote:
> Sample A is long and clear enough that I can get a feeling that it is > not the same recording, or the balance has been modified so much that I > believe it is not. I hear a difference near the end of the sample, where > in the Amadeus soundtrack I hear mostly what I believe to be an organ, > covering the choir, while in the sample I hear a much lower organ and > maybe strings. I couldn't turn up the volume, so the only organ I heard was from Rex tremendae 1:55, after the sample was cut. My two recordings of the Requiem was easily discernible as wrong, so I think the edits are correct. leivhe _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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Re: [CSG] Crediting samples of classical
by Frederic Da Vitoria
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2009/10/31 Leiv Hellebo <leiv.hellebo@...>
So be it :-) -- Frederic Da Vitoria (davitof) Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - http://www.april.org _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style |
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