[KDE Usability] Temperature widget: No Y-axis markers (to show the temp)

[dotancohen]

The current KDE temperature widget does not have Y-axis markers to
show the temperature when in graph form. Therefore, the user can only
know temperature relative to the past few seconds' time, and even then
not know the absolute amount of the change. I filed a bug to have this
axis marked, but it was closed due to "System monitor configuration is
going to remain simple". I feel that closure due to this reason is
absurd, and the widget in it's current state is useless. The bug can
be found here:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=187420


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> I feel that closure due to this reason is
> absurd, and the widget in it's current state is useless. The bug can
> be found here:
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=187420

Then write your own. If they don't want to add a feature, you can't make them.
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[dotancohen]

2009/10/15 Brian Shannon:
>
> Then write your own. If they don't want to add a feature, you can't make them.


Thank you for the insightful idea, Brian. I think it would be
unreasonable to have end-users write all the software that they find
bugs in, even if the developer at first is wary of adding the feature.
My message is that the bug was closed unreasonably, and that the
current state of the KDE widget is unusable, a perfectly valid
complaint.

The dev who closed that bug closed on the same day many unrelated bugs
with the same "System monitor configuration is going to remain simple"
reason. While that may have been valid for some of the bugs closed
that day, it certainly is not valid for the bug in question.

Do you feel that the current Temperature Widget is useful in graph
form without the Y-Axis markers?

Do you feel that the bug was closed with a reasonable reason given?

Do you feel that end users should "put out or shut up" by writing
their own software when they identify a bug in their current software
when the dev closes that bug unreasonably?

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On Thursday 15 October 2009 09:16:56 Dotan Cohen wrote:

> 2009/10/15 Brian Shannon:
> > Then write your own. If they don't want to add a feature, you
> > can't make them.
>
> Thank you for the insightful idea, Brian. I think it would be
> unreasonable to have end-users write all the software that they
> find bugs in, even if the developer at first is wary of adding the
> feature. My message is that the bug was closed unreasonably, and
> that the current state of the KDE widget is unusable, a perfectly
> valid complaint.

I 100% agree with you in regard of the attitude of closing
bugs/writing own software. Besides cases like this do a lot of harm
to OS/KDE.

Maturing of OS/KDE supporter -- what can you hear:

1. get involved, write a report
2. no, actually, write a patch
3. uhm, no, write your own software

At the end what is left from advantages of open source software? That
user can write his/her own software?

> Do you feel that the current Temperature Widget is useful in graph
> form without the Y-Axis markers?

And I agree with you here too -- the basic rule every student of math,
physics, etc. has to learn -- label the axis. Period. So it is not
about keeping graph simple or not, but making it useful or useless
("keep things as simple as possible, but not simpler" here is the
case of going too far).

Cheers,
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[Anne Wilson-5]

On Thursday 15 October 2009 08:16:56 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> Do you feel that the current Temperature Widget is useful in graph
> form without the Y-Axis markers?
>
Yes, in that it tells you if something is driving up the temperature.  If it
is running constantly at a high temperature that is another story - and it's
probably too late for this widget to help ;-)  And after all, hovering over
the widget (I'm assuming a taskbar usage) shows the actual temperature, so
personally I'm in favour of keeping it very simple as it is.  It does one
task, and IMO does it perfectly well.

Anne
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On Thursday 15 October 2009 11:31:24 Anne Wilson wrote:

> Yes, in that it tells you if something is driving up the
> temperature.

Strange :-), in sense, for me I wasn't actually never worried that
temp. is rising from 20C, then 21C, then 22C. I was worried when it
was even dropping but 1C per hour -- from 75C to 74C.

> And after all, hovering over the widget (I'm assuming
> a taskbar usage) shows the actual temperature,

a) this is extra task for user to do
b) if it would be true, we could "simplify" all graphs
c) I recently watched a lecture "tap is new click" (google techtalks),
not revolutionary, but interesting, and I realized how KDE heavily
depends on fact we have "hover". Touchscreens instead of being new
great feature, will become a major problem for all "just hover to..."
apps, and for KDE it means -- a lot of apps

Cheers
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[dotancohen]

> Yes, in that it tells you if something is driving up the temperature.  If it
> is running constantly at a high temperature that is another story - and it's
> probably too late for this widget to help ;-)

I expect the temp to go up if I am doing something intense, say for
instance playing video. However, I need to know if it went up to 55 C
or 65 C, no?


>  And after all, hovering over
> the widget (I'm assuming a taskbar usage) shows the actual temperature, so
> personally I'm in favour of keeping it very simple as it is.

Hovering over it? With the mouse? I try to keep my hands on the
keyboard. And even if I am using the mouse, my eyes can get there
faster.


>  It does one
> task, and IMO does it perfectly well.
>

What task? If the task is to show only increases / decreases in
temperature, then that is the derivative of the graph, not the graph.
Should it be called the temperature derivative plasmoid? And which KDE
widget tells the user the temperature, then?


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[dotancohen]

> Yes, in that it tells you if something is driving up the temperature.  If it
> is running constantly at a high temperature that is another story - and it's
> probably too late for this widget to help ;-)  And after all, hovering over
> the widget (I'm assuming a taskbar usage) shows the actual temperature, so
> personally I'm in favour of keeping it very simple as it is.  It does one
> task, and IMO does it perfectly well.
>

‎Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that there are no common usage
scenarios in which the user may need the temperature to actually be
displayed in the graph?


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[Anne Wilson-5]

On Thursday 15 October 2009 11:13:51 Maciej Pilichowski wrote:
> On Thursday 15 October 2009 11:31:24 Anne Wilson wrote:
> > Yes, in that it tells you if something is driving up the
> > temperature.
>
> Strange :-), in sense, for me I wasn't actually never worried that
> temp. is rising from 20C, then 21C, then 22C. I was worried when it
> was even dropping but 1C per hour -- from 75C to 74C.
>
Same principle - you see the movement.

> > And after all, hovering over the widget (I'm assuming
> > a taskbar usage) shows the actual temperature,
>
> a) this is extra task for user to do
> b) if it would be true, we could "simplify" all graphs
> c) I recently watched a lecture "tap is new click" (google techtalks),
> not revolutionary, but interesting, and I realized how KDE heavily
> depends on fact we have "hover". Touchscreens instead of being new
> great feature, will become a major problem for all "just hover to..."
> apps, and for KDE it means -- a lot of apps
>

Horses for courses.  I hate clutter.  I don't want the temperature constantly

cluttering up the icon, but I do want access to the information 'when I want
it', which is what hover gives me.

Anne
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[Anne Wilson-5]

On Thursday 15 October 2009 11:49:55 Dotan Cohen wrote:

> > Yes, in that it tells you if something is driving up the temperature.  If
> > it is running constantly at a high temperature that is another story -
> > and it's probably too late for this widget to help ;-)  And after all,
> > hovering over the widget (I'm assuming a taskbar usage) shows the actual
> > temperature, so personally I'm in favour of keeping it very simple as it
> > is.  It does one task, and IMO does it perfectly well.
>
> ‎Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that there are no common usage
> scenarios in which the user may need the temperature to actually be
> displayed in the graph?
>

It is reasonable to expect that you choose the tool most suited to the job.  

You asked if there is any value in this widget.  There is for me.  If there
isn't for you, use something else.

Anne
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On Thursday 15 October 2009 13:46:33 Anne Wilson wrote:

> On Thursday 15 October 2009 11:13:51 Maciej Pilichowski wrote:
> > On Thursday 15 October 2009 11:31:24 Anne Wilson wrote:
> > > Yes, in that it tells you if something is driving up the
> > > temperature.
> >
> > Strange :-), in sense, for me I wasn't actually never worried
> > that temp. is rising from 20C, then 21C, then 22C. I was worried
> > when it was even dropping but 1C per hour -- from 75C to 74C.
>
> Same principle - you see the movement.

Which gives me nothing -- only in context (value) it is meaningful.

> Horses for courses.  I hate clutter.  I don't want the temperature
> constantly cluttering up the icon, but I do want access to the
> information 'when I want it', which is what hover gives me.

Ok, I think it is possible to add feature to make all users
comfortable with the displayed information.

Cheers,
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On Thursday 15 October 2009 13:48:28 Anne Wilson wrote:

> It is reasonable to expect that you choose the tool most suited to
> the job. You asked if there is any value in this widget.  There is
> for me.  If there isn't for you, use something else.

It begs the question if it does make sense. I would say wontfix is OK,
if Dotan would ask for adding capability of checking the mail
accounts, but in case of single option "[ ] show the grid" (see:
http://bugsfiles.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=36218
)

is not enough to start/switch to another application. With such
solution (as Anne proposes) we would end up with millions of
semi-baked application with very narrow capabilities.

You would use it as today, Dotan would turn the grid on.

Cheers,

PS. Wontfix for this report meaning "wontfix because I won't do it,
but patches are welcome" is also OK. But such simplicity is rather
obscurity (for two people at least :-D).
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[Anne Wilson-5]

On Thursday 15 October 2009 14:08:37 Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

> On Thursday 15 October 2009 13:48:28 Anne Wilson wrote:
> > It is reasonable to expect that you choose the tool most suited to
> > the job. You asked if there is any value in this widget.  There is
> > for me.  If there isn't for you, use something else.
>
> It begs the question if it does make sense. I would say wontfix is OK,
> if Dotan would ask for adding capability of checking the mail
> accounts, but in case of single option "[ ] show the grid" (see:
> http://bugsfiles.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=36218
> )
>
> is not enough to start/switch to another application. With such
> solution (as Anne proposes) we would end up with millions of
> semi-baked application with very narrow capabilities.
>
> You would use it as today, Dotan would turn the grid on.
>
> Cheers,
>
> PS. Wontfix for this report meaning "wontfix because I won't do it,
> but patches are welcome" is also OK. But such simplicity is rather
> obscurity (for two people at least :-D).
>

The point at issue is that the developer wrote the plasmoid as he wanted it to

be.  That's his right.  Yes, you can request other features, but he has no
obligation to add them.  That leaves two choices - write the extra yourself,
or choose something else.

Anne
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> The dev who closed that bug closed on the same day many unrelated bugs
> with the same "System monitor configuration is going to remain simple"
> reason. While that may have been valid for some of the bugs closed
> that day, it certainly is not valid for the bug in question.

I'm sorry but of course you feel this way. You submitted the bug
report. Regardless, it is functioning perfectly for users and the
developers clearly do not want to add the *feature*. And I cannot
stress that enough. What you want is a feature - not a bugfix.

Find another widget, write your own or you're out of luck.
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[dotancohen]

> It is reasonable to expect that you choose the tool most suited to the job.
> You asked if there is any value in this widget.  There is for me.  If there
> isn't for you, use something else.
>

What else does KDE provide? The KDE 3 System Monitor tools were
perfect, and I have filed separate feature requests for each
individual feature. However, they are all being closed in the name of
simplicity.

Does adding a checkbox for showing the Y-axis markers add that much
complexity? I understand why Anne does not want the feature for her
personal desktop, but does that invalidate the bug on the basis of
simplicity for those who do want the feature?

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[dotancohen]

> The point at issue is that the developer wrote the plasmoid as he wanted it to
> be.  That's his right.  Yes, you can request other features, but he has no
> obligation to add them.  That leaves two choices - write the extra yourself,
> or choose something else.
>

It is the developer's right to add the features that he sees fit for
the software that he writes, no one can argue with that.

However, if the developer wants his software to be marketed as KDE,
and even included in a default KDE install, then it is reasonable that
KDE would have certain requirements of the software. If the dev
suddenly decides that he does not want to support translations of his
plasmoid, instead preferring hard-coded English in the name of
simplicity, would that be alright?

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[dotancohen]

> I'm sorry but of course you feel this way. You submitted the bug
> report. Regardless, it is functioning perfectly for users and the
> developers clearly do not want to add the *feature*. And I cannot
> stress that enough. What you want is a feature - not a bugfix.
>

I am aware that we are discussing a *feature* and not a programming
error. However, the feature in question is a central, critical part of
the main function of the plasmoid. Would you consider an email client
that could not reply to messages, only start new messages, to be
broken? Of course requesting that "reply" be added to the email client
is a feature, and of course not everybody needs a reply function,
however it is a central feature of any email client that it would be
able to reply to messages. Same for this plasmoid: I am not requesting
some unusual cornercase irrelevant feature. I am pointing out that the
central purpose of the plasmoid is flawed without this critical
feature.


> Find another widget,

I have found no other suitable widget, not even the widget suggested
in the bug report.

> write your own

I am a mechanical engineer, not a software engineer. I have no desire
to learn to code, I contribute by filing bug reports, feature
requests, helping on mailing lists, and donating money to KDE.

> or you're out of luck.

I have two beautiful daughters, a redhead wife, and an obedient dog. I
think that I have more luck than most.

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> I am pointing out that the
> central purpose of the plasmoid is flawed without this critical
> feature.

You are pointing out a need you have that is not fulfilled by the
plasmoid in question. This is not the developer's problem. If it was
so critical to the plasmoid's purpose, the developer would want to add
it. Clearly (s)he and other users are happy with it as it is.

> I contribute by filing bug reports, feature
> requests, helping on mailing lists, and donating money to KDE.

These contributions are excellent and appreciated. However, the
developers still work in their free time and are free to do what they
want.

>> or you're out of luck.
>
> I have two beautiful daughters, a redhead wife, and an obedient dog. I
> think that I have more luck than most.

Ignoring, for a moment, the fact that I don't believe in luck and was
using it purely as a common figure of speech, I was clearly referring
to the specific functionality that sparked this discussion.

This is not a usability issue and should not be discussed on this
mailing list. You are free to speak to the developers.
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[dotancohen]

2009/10/15 Brian Shannon <teapot.philosopher@...>:
>> I am pointing out that the
>> central purpose of the plasmoid is flawed without this critical
>> feature.
>
> You are pointing out a need you have that is not fulfilled by the
> plasmoid in question. This is not the developer's problem. If it was
> so critical to the plasmoid's purpose, the developer would want to add
> it. Clearly (s)he and other users are happy with it as it is.
>

Obviously the dev in question does not need this feature. The needs of
one user (neither myself nor the dev) define a critical feature for
any specific application.

An application who's stated purpose is to report the temperature of
the processor, yet does not give the temperature value in the graph,
is not performing it's core feature.


>> I contribute by filing bug reports, feature
>> requests, helping on mailing lists, and donating money to KDE.
>
> These contributions are excellent and appreciated. However, the
> developers still work in their free time and are free to do what they
> want.
>

I am free to question the dev's judgment. I am often wrong and I
concede that. But you argue that no matter what the dev wants, that is
the right way. I disagree. If the dev were to work in isolation, then
he could code whatever he wants and not even have a bug tracker. But
if the dev is part of a project, then he will sometimes have to abide
by the needs of the project. Supplying the default temperature graph
plasmoid of KDE entails some responsibility.


> This is not a usability issue and should not be discussed on this
> mailing list. You are free to speak to the developers.

Anne mentioned that the plasmoid shows the temp when the mouse is
hovered over the plasmoid. Requiring the user to use the mouse instead
of the keyboard, and hiding essential information from the user, is a
usability issue. If you disagree (and I may be wrong here) then please
state under which category you feel that this issue belongs and I will
take it to the appropriate list for discussion. Thanks.


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On Thursday 15 October 2009 23:09:45 Dotan Cohen wrote:

> Requiring the user to use the mouse
> instead of the keyboard, and hiding essential information from the
> user, is a usability issue.

Not even mentioning A18Y issue. The principle could be stated as "app
which requires excessive mouse movement is an example of a18y abuse".

It is a pity we have HIG but we don't have A18YG and minimal criteria
for that -- either you meet all of them and your app can be included
in KDE suite or _you_ as developer are out of luck and find some
place to host your app & set up BTS on your own.

KDE should, among other things, mean quality.

Cheers,
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