[Maybe OT] Linux Audio Apps Clasification

[Daniel Vidal-2]

Hi

   I think this post is [OT] but also i think is the apropiate audience...

   I'am now working on making personalized menus for Musix distro. I try to do this task using the freedesktop rules, using .desktop files and the "Categories" field. This is a real problem. All audio Apps put "AudioVideo" tag... and all apps apear together on a single menu option... Mixers merged with synths... with DAWs... with virtual keyboards... Well... when the user chooses the "multimedia" option of system menu... the submenu have three columns of apps... Only a little set of apps put more specific tag like "Midi" or "Synthesis"...

   This behavoir can be modified using more "Categories" tags describing more closely the app... But this cant be done without the agreement of linux apps developers about a clasification...

   I can make a proposal to add some tags?

(Tags about types off apps)

   AudioFX -> Effects
   DAW
   AudioAnalisys
   FftAnalisys
   AudioFrameworks (like csound or CLAM)
   AudioPlayer
   Mixer
   WaveEditor
   ScoreEditor
   .
   .

(Tags about runtime environment)

   Jack
   Alsa
   Portaudio
   .
   .

   If the developers of audio apps include this tags (or others that can be discussed here) the wm developers can make a multimedia menu more clear and compact... I think this is well for all people... And the work is only put some words in one file of sources.

Well... sorry for my english

Thx in Advance

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[laseray]

On November 3, 2009 01:22:30 pm Daniel Vidal wrote:

> Hi
>
>    I think this post is [OT] but also i think is the apropiate audience...
>
>    I'am now working on making personalized menus for Musix distro. I try to
> do this task using the freedesktop rules, using .desktop files and the
> "Categories" field. This is a real problem. All audio Apps put "AudioVideo"
> tag... and all apps apear together on a single menu option... Mixers merged
> with synths... with DAWs... with virtual keyboards... Well... when the user
> chooses the "multimedia" option of system menu... the submenu have three
> columns of apps... Only a little set of apps put more specific tag like
> "Midi" or "Synthesis"...
>
>    This behavoir can be modified using more "Categories" tags describing
> more closely the app... But this cant be done without the agreement of
>  linux apps developers about a clasification...
>
>    I can make a proposal to add some tags?

[snip]

I can see where you are coming from. The Sound & Video menu on my desktop
(E17) is a mess. Categorizing these better would be nice, but I just cannot
see how you will find a way to break it up that most people will agree with.
For instance, I do not necessarily agree with the categories you suggest,
seems like too many IMO.

I would suggest either using very broad categories (max of 3, 4, for example)
or leaving it alone altogether. Even the other non-audio related menus are
questionable across different desktops. An end user can always edit them
if it bothers them that much.

Raymond






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[rosea]

Raymond Martin wrote:

> On November 3, 2009 01:22:30 pm Daniel Vidal wrote:
>  
>> Hi
>>
>>    I think this post is [OT] but also i think is the apropiate audience...
>>
>>    I'am now working on making personalized menus for Musix distro. I try to
>> do this task using the freedesktop rules, using .desktop files and the
>> "Categories" field. This is a real problem. All audio Apps put "AudioVideo"
>> tag... and all apps apear together on a single menu option... Mixers merged
>> with synths... with DAWs... with virtual keyboards... Well... when the user
>> chooses the "multimedia" option of system menu... the submenu have three
>> columns of apps... Only a little set of apps put more specific tag like
>> "Midi" or "Synthesis"...
>>
>>    This behavoir can be modified using more "Categories" tags describing
>> more closely the app... But this cant be done without the agreement of
>>  linux apps developers about a clasification...
>>
>>    I can make a proposal to add some tags?
>>    
>
> [snip]
>
> I can see where you are coming from. The Sound & Video menu on my desktop
> (E17) is a mess. Categorizing these better would be nice, but I just cannot
> see how you will find a way to break it up that most people will agree with.
> For instance, I do not necessarily agree with the categories you suggest,
> seems like too many IMO.
>
> I would suggest either using very broad categories (max of 3, 4, for example)
> or leaving it alone altogether. Even the other non-audio related menus are
> questionable across different desktops. An end user can always edit them
> if it bothers them that much.

I thought about this also a while ago...
Ubuntu Studio has an extra audio/video production menu

The gnome-main-menu from OpenSuse works also pretty well. You can set
some favourite apps and the others are pretty well organized...

\r
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[Ray Rashif]

2009/11/4 rosea grammostola <rosea.grammostola@...>

Raymond Martin wrote:
> On November 3, 2009 01:22:30 pm Daniel Vidal wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>>    I think this post is [OT] but also i think is the apropiate audience...
>>
>>    I'am now working on making personalized menus for Musix distro. I try to
>> do this task using the freedesktop rules, using .desktop files and the
>> "Categories" field. This is a real problem. All audio Apps put "AudioVideo"
>> tag... and all apps apear together on a single menu option... Mixers merged
>> with synths... with DAWs... with virtual keyboards... Well... when the user
>> chooses the "multimedia" option of system menu... the submenu have three
>> columns of apps... Only a little set of apps put more specific tag like
>> "Midi" or "Synthesis"...
>>
>>    This behavoir can be modified using more "Categories" tags describing
>> more closely the app... But this cant be done without the agreement of
>>  linux apps developers about a clasification...
>>
>>    I can make a proposal to add some tags?
>>
>
> [snip]
>
> I can see where you are coming from. The Sound & Video menu on my desktop
> (E17) is a mess. Categorizing these better would be nice, but I just cannot
> see how you will find a way to break it up that most people will agree with.
> For instance, I do not necessarily agree with the categories you suggest,
> seems like too many IMO.
>
> I would suggest either using very broad categories (max of 3, 4, for example)
> or leaving it alone altogether. Even the other non-audio related menus are
> questionable across different desktops. An end user can always edit them
> if it bothers them that much.

I thought about this also a while ago...
Ubuntu Studio has an extra audio/video production menu

The gnome-main-menu from OpenSuse works also pretty well. You can set
some favourite apps and the others are pretty well organized...

\r

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You could always transform your entire desktop to conform to a personally-categorised menu (with X-$customcat), with the help of the shell. Copy the chosen apps' entries from /usr/share/applications and place them in a tmp location, then run:

sed -i 's/Categories=.*/Categories=X-MyCat;/' *

After that move them to ~/.local/share/applications. Application devs could provide desktop files with their own X-* category, there is no harm.

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[Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas]

On Tuesday, November 3, 2009, Daniel Vidal wrote:
>    I'am now working on making personalized menus for Musix distro. I try to
> do this task using the freedesktop rules, using .desktop files and the
> "Categories" field. This is a real problem. All audio Apps put "AudioVideo"
> tag... and all apps apear together on a single menu option... Mixers merged
> with synths... with DAWs... with virtual keyboards... Well... when the user
> chooses the "multimedia" option of system menu... the submenu have three
> columns of apps... Only a little set of apps put more specific tag like
> "Midi" or "Synthesis"...

I would strongly recommend to adhere to the published standards:

http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html

If there is a real need for more registered categories, the way to go is to
propose the new categories to be included in future releases of the standard.

Some of your proposed additional categories correspond to registered ones:

>    AudioPlayer

Player; Audio or Video or AudioVideo

>    Mixer

Mixer;AudioVideo;Audio;

>    WaveEditor
>    ScoreEditor

AudioVideoEditing; Audio or Video or AudioVideo

There are other already existing categories:

Midi;AudioVideo;Audio;
Sequencer;AudioVideo;Audio
Recorder; Audio or Video or AudioVideo
Music; AudioVideo or Education

Regards,
Pedro
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[Ralf Mardorf]

Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas wrote:

> On Tuesday, November 3, 2009, Daniel Vidal wrote:
>  
>>    I'am now working on making personalized menus for Musix distro. I try to
>> do this task using the freedesktop rules, using .desktop files and the
>> "Categories" field. This is a real problem. All audio Apps put "AudioVideo"
>> tag... and all apps apear together on a single menu option... Mixers merged
>> with synths... with DAWs... with virtual keyboards... Well... when the user
>> chooses the "multimedia" option of system menu... the submenu have three
>> columns of apps... Only a little set of apps put more specific tag like
>> "Midi" or "Synthesis"...
>>    
>
> I would strongly recommend to adhere to the published standards:
>
> http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
>
> If there is a real need for more registered categories, the way to go is to
> propose the new categories to be included in future releases of the standard.
>
> Some of your proposed additional categories correspond to registered ones:
>
>  
>>    AudioPlayer
>>    
>
> Player; Audio or Video or AudioVideo
>
>  
>>    Mixer
>>    
>
> Mixer;AudioVideo;Audio;
>
>  
>>    WaveEditor
>>    ScoreEditor
>>    
>
> AudioVideoEditing; Audio or Video or AudioVideo
>
> There are other already existing categories:
>
> Midi;AudioVideo;Audio;
> Sequencer;AudioVideo;Audio
> Recorder; Audio or Video or AudioVideo
> Music; AudioVideo or Education
>
> Regards,
> Pedro

For a user it's more comfortable to have one menu for all entries
instead of having sub-menus that aren't fine. Just install openSUSE 11.2
RC 1. They added sub menus, thus means that if you compile Qtractor from
svn, it will be found in the sub-menu "video" ;). For users who like to
use menus for hook or by crook will be the need to edit the menu for
each desktop environment separately (nearly impossible because of
freedesktop). In addition even a rubric "Synth" might need sub-menus,
e.g. for the 1000 entries of bristol. Does freedesktop specifications
work for anybody? I can remember that I once had several wastebins on my
desktop ;), that there are always strange side effects when editing
menus, while using more than one desktop environment. The interlacing
between different desktop environments only causes trouble. It would be
much more comfortable if each WM/DE would use it's own files. Btw. I
guess most Linux audio users will start most applications by using a
terminal instead of a menu.

It's the only mail I read of this thread, but sorry, anyway I need to
reply, because the standards of freedesktop very often cause trouble on
my machines, e.g. when using GNOME and KDE and editing the menus, e.g.
by using Alacarte.

:)
Ralf
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[Daniel Vidal-2]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Daniel Vidal <danielvidalchornet@...>
Date: 2009/11/4
Subject: Re: [LAD] [Maybe OT] Linux Audio Apps Clasification
To: Raymond Martin <laseray@...>


Hi

   Thx for answer Raymond

    Well... My proposal of categories are just a suggestion to initiate the discussion...

    About the number of categories... Not are a direct relation betwen number of categories and submenu groups... These categories are used by the people that design the menu to include (or exclude) apps in the menu groups... I can put together audio players with audio file managers... or not... i can put together secuencers with drum machines... or not... But i need these categories to do this work... I cant make a serious multimedia menu if all apps are only "AudioVideo" apps.

Thx again

Bye  

2009/11/4 Raymond Martin <laseray@...>

On November 3, 2009 01:22:30 pm Daniel Vidal wrote:
> Hi
>
>    I think this post is [OT] but also i think is the apropiate audience...
>
>    I'am now working on making personalized menus for Musix distro. I try to
> do this task using the freedesktop rules, using .desktop files and the
> "Categories" field. This is a real problem. All audio Apps put "AudioVideo"
> tag... and all apps apear together on a single menu option... Mixers merged
> with synths... with DAWs... with virtual keyboards... Well... when the user
> chooses the "multimedia" option of system menu... the submenu have three
> columns of apps... Only a little set of apps put more specific tag like
> "Midi" or "Synthesis"...
>
>    This behavoir can be modified using more "Categories" tags describing
> more closely the app... But this cant be done without the agreement of
>  linux apps developers about a clasification...
>
>    I can make a proposal to add some tags?

[snip]

I can see where you are coming from. The Sound & Video menu on my desktop
(E17) is a mess. Categorizing these better would be nice, but I just cannot
see how you will find a way to break it up that most people will agree with.
For instance, I do not necessarily agree with the categories you suggest,
seems like too many IMO.

I would suggest either using very broad categories (max of 3, 4, for example)
or leaving it alone altogether. Even the other non-audio related menus are
questionable across different desktops. An end user can always edit them
if it bothers them that much.

Raymond






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[Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas]

On Friday, November 6, 2009, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> It's the only mail I read of this thread, but sorry, anyway I need to
> reply, because the standards of freedesktop very often cause trouble on
> my machines, e.g. when using GNOME and KDE and editing the menus, e.g.
> by using Alacarte.

My recommendations for you and the OP are similar: if you have some valuable
proposal or good ideas to solve real problems for everybody, please push your
proposals to freedesktop.org so they can be applied to the broader audience.

On the other hand, if the .desktop files from some application or some distro
include wrong categories, please send patches and/or complains to the
corresponding responsible people.

Regards,
Pedro
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Linux-audio-dev@...
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[Daniel Vidal-2]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Daniel Vidal <danielvidalchornet@...>
Date: 2009/11/6
Subject: Re: [LAD] [Maybe OT] Linux Audio Apps Clasification
To: Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas <pedro.lopez.cabanillas@...>


Thx Pedro (¿i can say "gracias Pedro?)

    Yes... i read the standars before post. But my call is not only to make new categories but also to apply existing ones... a very large number of audio apps comes with only "AudioVideo" tag...

    And yes... This task can be done for other people than developers... in fact the Suse packagers do this task to manage menus... Debian make your own .desktop files and put your own submenu... but only take two posible tags... "sound" and "video". The problem remains unsolved.

  I can also edit the .desktop files to put my own categories... but i think this is not a practical solution... if the user update any app... these changes can be lost... and the user can view how the app disapear from the menus...

Regards

2009/11/6 Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas <pedro.lopez.cabanillas@...>

On Tuesday, November 3, 2009, Daniel Vidal wrote:
>    I'am now working on making personalized menus for Musix distro. I try to
> do this task using the freedesktop rules, using .desktop files and the
> "Categories" field. This is a real problem. All audio Apps put "AudioVideo"
> tag... and all apps apear together on a single menu option... Mixers merged
> with synths... with DAWs... with virtual keyboards... Well... when the user
> chooses the "multimedia" option of system menu... the submenu have three
> columns of apps... Only a little set of apps put more specific tag like
> "Midi" or "Synthesis"...

I would strongly recommend to adhere to the published standards:

http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html

If there is a real need for more registered categories, the way to go is to
propose the new categories to be included in future releases of the standard.

Some of your proposed additional categories correspond to registered ones:

>    AudioPlayer

Player; Audio or Video or AudioVideo

>    Mixer

Mixer;AudioVideo;Audio;

>    WaveEditor
>    ScoreEditor

AudioVideoEditing; Audio or Video or AudioVideo

There are other already existing categories:

Midi;AudioVideo;Audio;
Sequencer;AudioVideo;Audio
Recorder; Audio or Video or AudioVideo
Music; AudioVideo or Education

Regards,
Pedro

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[Daniel Vidal-2]

Hi

    I'an sorry... my answers are send to personal mail... is my fault... sorry... I resend to the list

2009/11/6 Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas <pedro.lopez.cabanillas@...>

On Friday, November 6, 2009, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> It's the only mail I read of this thread, but sorry, anyway I need to
> reply, because the standards of freedesktop very often cause trouble on
> my machines, e.g. when using GNOME and KDE and editing the menus, e.g.
> by using Alacarte.

My recommendations for you and the OP are similar: if you have some valuable
proposal or good ideas to solve real problems for everybody, please push your
proposals to freedesktop.org so they can be applied to the broader audience.

On the other hand, if the .desktop files from some application or some distro
include wrong categories, please send patches and/or complains to the
corresponding responsible people.

Regards,
Pedro

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[Ralf Mardorf]

Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas wrote:

> On Friday, November 6, 2009, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>  
>> It's the only mail I read of this thread, but sorry, anyway I need to
>> reply, because the standards of freedesktop very often cause trouble on
>> my machines, e.g. when using GNOME and KDE and editing the menus, e.g.
>> by using Alacarte.
>>    
>
> My recommendations for you and the OP are similar: if you have some valuable
> proposal or good ideas to solve real problems for everybody, please push your
> proposals to freedesktop.org so they can be applied to the broader audience.
>  

As I mentioned before:
> It would be much more comfortable if each WM/DE would use it's own
> files. Btw. I guess most Linux audio users will start most
> applications by using a terminal instead of a menu.

While the package manager will install an application, it could ask for
the wanted menu entry. When I made reports because of problems with
freedesktop standards, when using e17 and GNOME, I got a reply that
people should use e17 only and not e17 and GNOME. If I don't want to
have conflicts because of freedesktop standards when using e17 and
GNOME, I should pay somebody to solve this.

So again, my good idea is that all desktops have their own files, thus a
user will be able to customize the menus, desktop etc. without having
trouble.
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