[OT] Hammers and nails (was Re: A question about log-rotation on "catalina.out")

[Peter Crowther]

2009/10/30 Caldarale, Charles R <Chuck.Caldarale@...>:
> Smalltalk is a classic example of the philosophy: "I have a hammer, therefore everything is a nail."

I used to teach Smalltalk*.  Of a 3-day course, 1/4 day was on the
language, 1/2 day was on the environment and the rest was on the class
library.  It's an interesting experiment in language philosophy in the
same way that LISP is an interesting experiment - and ST80's still by
far the fastest single-user prototyping environment I've ever used.  I
just don't use it for high-performance code.

At the other end of the language-complexity scale, I can't remember
the source of the quote but I do appreciate "When C++ is your hammer,
everything looks like a screw."

- Peter

* Also Java, C++, Basic, UNIX, SQL... I'm not proud ;-).

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[awarnier]

Peter Crowther wrote:
>
> At the other end of the language-complexity scale, I can't remember
> the source of the quote but I do appreciate "When C++ is your hammer,
> everything looks like a screw."
>
I don't know what you people are all talking about. We Perl programmers
don't have such issues.  It does not matter if the target is a screw, a
nail, or a nut; just pick the appropriate accessory and be done with it.
Kind of like
http://www.acehardware.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=1259412&view=all


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[Pierre Goupil]

I'm a true Java developper (tm). If a problem can't be solved with Java,
that's not a real problem. Java is for big boys only, isn't it?


On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 2:12 PM, André Warnier <aw@...> wrote:

> Peter Crowther wrote:
>
>>
>> At the other end of the language-complexity scale, I can't remember
>> the source of the quote but I do appreciate "When C++ is your hammer,
>> everything looks like a screw."
>>
>>  I don't know what you people are all talking about. We Perl programmers
> don't have such issues.  It does not matter if the target is a screw, a
> nail, or a nut; just pick the appropriate accessory and be done with it.
> Kind of like
> http://www.acehardware.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=1259412&view=all
>
>
>
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>

--
Sans amis était le grand maître des mondes,
Eprouvait manque, ce pour quoi il créa les esprits,
Miroirs bienveillants de sa béatitude.
Mais au vrai, il ne trouva aucun égal,
Du calice du royaume total des âmes
Ecume jusqu'à lui l'infinité.

(Schiller, "l'amitié")

[Christopher Schultz-2]

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Pierre,

On 10/30/2009 9:21 AM, Pierre Goupil wrote:
> I'm a true Java developper (tm). If a problem can't be solved with Java,
> that's not a real problem.

Here's one Java can't do (without significant help):

Write a command-line (no GUI) app that prompts for a sensitive keyboard
response and accepts that response without echoing the characters back
to the screen (i.e. a password grabber).

Sure, that example is contrived, but it represents Java's
lowest-common-denominator approach which makes it inappropriate for
certain uses.

> Java is for big boys only, isn't it?

I've heard that recent (even several years old, now) versions of Java
VMs can "match" the speed of compiled C++ for many non-trivial uses.
But, can the Java compiler use its generics features statically
calculate factorials?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_metaprogramming#Compile-time_class_generation

- -chris
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[Caldarale, Charles R]

> From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:chris@...]
> Subject: Re: [OT] Hammers and nails (was Re: A question about log-
> rotationon "catalina.out")
>
> Here's one Java can't do (without significant help):
>
> Write a command-line (no GUI) app that prompts for a sensitive keyboard
> response and accepts that response without echoing the characters back
> to the screen (i.e. a password grabber).

Try java.io.Console.readPassword().

 - Chuck


THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail and its attachments from all computers.

[Robert Koberg]

On Oct 30, 2009, at 10:17 AM, Caldarale, Charles R wrote:

>> From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:chris@...]
>> Subject: Re: [OT] Hammers and nails (was Re: A question about log-
>> rotationon "catalina.out")
>>
>> Here's one Java can't do (without significant help):
>>
>> Write a command-line (no GUI) app that prompts for a sensitive  
>> keyboard
>> response and accepts that response without echoing the characters  
>> back
>> to the screen (i.e. a password grabber).
>
> Try java.io.Console.readPassword().

I have been trying to pound in a nail with java. I have tried  
everything and the damn nail just won't go in. I almost ready to give  
up.

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[Caldarale, Charles R]

> From: Robert Koberg [mailto:rob@...]
> Subject: Re: [OT] Hammers and nails (was Re: A question about log-
> rotationon "catalina.out")
>
> I have been trying to pound in a nail with java. I have tried
> everything and the damn nail just won't go in. I almost ready
> to give up.

Try pounding on the flat end, not the pointy one...

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

 - Chuck


THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail and its attachments from all computers.


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[Christopher Schultz-2]

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Chuck,

On 10/30/2009 1:17 PM, Caldarale, Charles R wrote:

>> From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:chris@...]
>> Subject: Re: [OT] Hammers and nails (was Re: A question about log-
>> rotationon "catalina.out")
>>
>> Here's one Java can't do (without significant help):
>>
>> Write a command-line (no GUI) app that prompts for a sensitive keyboard
>> response and accepts that response without echoing the characters back
>> to the screen (i.e. a password grabber).
>
> Try java.io.Console.readPassword().

Aah, the ignorance that living in a 1.5-world brings. I am shamed.

- -chris
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[David Kerber]

Christopher Schultz wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Chuck,
>
> On 10/30/2009 1:17 PM, Caldarale, Charles R wrote:
>>> From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:chris@...]
>>> Subject: Re: [OT] Hammers and nails (was Re: A question about log-
>>> rotationon "catalina.out")
>>>
>>> Here's one Java can't do (without significant help):
>>>
>>> Write a command-line (no GUI) app that prompts for a sensitive keyboard
>>> response and accepts that response without echoing the characters back
>>> to the screen (i.e. a password grabber).
>> Try java.io.Console.readPassword().
>
> Aah, the ignorance that living in a 1.5-world brings. I am shamed.

My thoughts as well.  Now, if there was only the option to have it echo
back an arbitrary character, instead of ONLY turning off echo completely.

D


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[Leon Rosenberg-3]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Christopher Schultz
<chris@...> wrote:
>> Java is for big boys only, isn't it?
>
> I've heard that recent (even several years old, now) versions of Java
> VMs can "match" the speed of compiled C++ for many non-trivial uses.
> But, can the Java compiler use its generics features statically
> calculate factorials?

No, java programmers which KNOW all the possible values they ever
gonna use for a method call, simply REPLACE this method call with a
constant.
In case they don't know, the compile time class generation from your
example doesn't work either.

They are saying: In the time java developers picks the gun, the php
developer runs away with the prey. And the c developer seems to be
thinking about best fitting boots.

regards
Leon

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[George Sexton]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leon Rosenberg [mailto:rosenberg.leon@...]
> Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 1:53 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: [OT] Hammers and nails (was Re: A question about log-
> rotation on "catalina.out")
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Christopher Schultz
> <chris@...> wrote:
> >> Java is for big boys only, isn't it?
> >
> > I've heard that recent (even several years old, now) versions of Java
> > VMs can "match" the speed of compiled C++ for many non-trivial uses.
> > But, can the Java compiler use its generics features statically
> > calculate factorials?
>
> No, java programmers which KNOW all the possible values they ever
> gonna use for a method call, simply REPLACE this method call with a
> constant.
> In case they don't know, the compile time class generation from your
> example doesn't work either.
>
> They are saying: In the time java developers picks the gun, the php
> developer runs away with the prey. And the c developer seems to be
> thinking about best fitting boots.

Right. After you tell me how to do a thread in PHP.

>
> regards
> Leon
>
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George Sexton
MH Software, Inc.
http://www.mhsoftware.com/
Voice: 303 438 9585


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[awarnier]

David kerber wrote:

> Christopher Schultz wrote:
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>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> On 10/30/2009 1:17 PM, Caldarale, Charles R wrote:
>>>> From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:chris@...]
>>>> Subject: Re: [OT] Hammers and nails (was Re: A question about log-
>>>> rotationon "catalina.out")
>>>>
>>>> Here's one Java can't do (without significant help):
>>>>
>>>> Write a command-line (no GUI) app that prompts for a sensitive keyboard
>>>> response and accepts that response without echoing the characters back
>>>> to the screen (i.e. a password grabber).
>>> Try java.io.Console.readPassword().
>>
>> Aah, the ignorance that living in a 1.5-world brings. I am shamed.
>
> My thoughts as well.  Now, if there was only the option to have it echo
> back an arbitrary character, instead of ONLY turning off echo completely.
>

It is also a fairly good example of what I was muttering about, re Java
things : to do this (fairly simple) thing, one has to known that there
exists such as thing as java.io.Console and that hidden in it is a
readPassword method.  I know, someone is going to say that one shouldn't
mess around in a nuclear power plant if one hasn't read the manual.
But look right here : we have Christopher who is evidently a competent
Java programmer (if I judge by the fact that more than 50% of the code
he posts is totally cryptic to me), and he did not know there even
existed such a class in the basic java.io hierarchy.
I mean that once you learn the basic of the language, apart from "Hello
World" (and one could even argue about that), you are not very advanced,
since just about everything you need to do requires the import of about
5 class hierarchies, and that finding these classes and understanding
their quirks turns out to be 90% of any serious undertaking.
(Which on the other hand gives a certain market value to anyone who has
done this kind of research, which deep-down I suspect is the main point
of Java ;-)).

More seriously, maybe it is just the lack of some overall,
comprehensive, searchable archive which is the biggest problem.
When I need something in Perl, I usually need 2 and only 2 searches : in
the index of the Perl programming Manual (the Camel book), and in the
CPAN archive.  In 99% of the cases, I'll find there what I need, be it a
problem of displaying statistics or creating my own FTP server or
interfacing to Amazon's API or parsing XML.  When you need some class to
solve a problem at the Java level, no such luck (at least so it seems to
this relative Java dummy).

To get back to the subject of this thread then, I definitely think that
Java is a better hammer than Perl : using the pile of Java manuals which
one needs to get anything going, one has a much better chance to just
press the nail into the substrate, than with the single lightweight
Camel book.



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[awarnier]

Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>
> They are saying: In the time java developers picks the gun, the php
> developer runs away with the prey. And the c developer seems to be
> thinking about best fitting boots.
>
The perl developer in the meantime created a module which will allow him
to catch the rest of the species from his couch.


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[Leon Rosenberg-3]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:59 AM, André Warnier <aw@...> wrote:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>>
>> They are saying: In the time java developers picks the gun, the php
>> developer runs away with the prey. And the c developer seems to be
>> thinking about best fitting boots.
>>
> The perl developer in the meantime created a module which will allow him to
> catch the rest of the species from his couch.

But doing so takes him so long, that there is no prey anymore. That's
the reason
perl developers died out :-)

Leon

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[awarnier]

Leon Rosenberg wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:59 AM, André Warnier <aw@...> wrote:
>> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>>> They are saying: In the time java developers picks the gun, the php
>>> developer runs away with the prey. And the c developer seems to be
>>> thinking about best fitting boots.
>>>
>> The perl developer in the meantime created a module which will allow him to
>> catch the rest of the species from his couch.
>
> But doing so takes him so long, that there is no prey anymore. That's
> the reason
> perl developers died out :-)
>

I have another explanation for this :
After creating the excellent CPAN library, which pretty much solves any
programming problem worth solving, real perl developers could not think
of anything worthwile to do anymore.  Thus they essentially worked
themselves out of a job, and as a result starved to death.
Fortunately, this is not about to happen to java programmers.
:-)

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[Christopher Schultz-2]

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André,

On 10/31/2009 4:59 AM, André Warnier wrote:
> I know, someone is going to say that one shouldn't
> mess around in a nuclear power plant if one hasn't read the manual.

Oddly enough, Sun's Java source (that is, the source code to the .java
files that they give out with their JDK distros) used to include the
following warning. It looks like it's been moved into their general
license which you can read in full here:
http://www.java.com/en/download/license.jsp

Under the "Restrictions" section:
"
You acknowledge that Licensed Software is not designed or intended for
use in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear
facility.
"

> But look right here : we have Christopher who is evidently a competent
> Java programmer (if I judge by the fact that more than 50% of the code
> he posts is totally cryptic to me), and he did not know there even
> existed such a class in the basic java.io hierarchy.

To be fair, this is a Java 1.6 class, and I'm perpetually stuck in the
dark ages as evidenced by my somewhat recent upgrade from a 1.4 JVM and
a 4.1.x Tomcat to a mere 1.5 JVM and Tomcat 5.5. With a little luck,
we'll move up to TC 6 in development for our next cycle and then go to
production with it, too. Maybe we'll get crazy and go for Java 1.6 too.

At any rate, this is why I sometimes take some time to peruse the
Javadoc for the standard library, even when I have nothing in particular
to look for. Looking through everything in java.util is a good thing to
do for basic classes for most of your ADTs that you had to self-code in
programming classes you may have taken. Hash table? No problem. Hash
table that spits out keys in predictable order? No problem. The list
goes on.

> I mean that once you learn the basic of the language, apart from "Hello
> World" (and one could even argue about that), you are not very advanced,
> since just about everything you need to do requires the import of about
> 5 class hierarchies, and that finding these classes and understanding
> their quirks turns out to be 90% of any serious undertaking.

The same can really be said about just about any programming language.
Although I "know" C++, I wouldn't ever take a job doing it because I
suck at it. On the other hand, I've been told by friends who routinely
hire C++ programmers that they'd rather have me hacking their C++ than a
lot of their folks because at least my stuff will work properly even if
it's not done "properly" in C++ -- that is, in the purest, C++y way that
can be done.

> More seriously, maybe it is just the lack of some overall,
> comprehensive, searchable archive which is the biggest problem.

Yeah, Sun hasn't really jumped-into this whole community thing very
well. IMO they see their "community" as a source of JSR interference and
not much else :(

> When I need something in Perl, I usually need 2 and only 2 searches : in
> the index of the Perl programming Manual (the Camel book), and in the
> CPAN archive.

Really, GIYF here. Or, just ask any of your friends who are Java wonks.
Most Java folks either know a "package that'll do that" or knows someone
who knows. It's not a great system, but it often works.

- -chris
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[Christopher Schultz-2]

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André,

On 10/31/2009 9:53 AM, André Warnier wrote:
> Fortunately, this is not about to happen to java programmers.

Zing!

- -chris
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[el al]

How did this make it into the tomcat users list? :)

CPAN: Driven by users. Java (JCP) Driven by vendors.

[awarnier]

Elli Albek wrote:
> How did this make it into the tomcat users list? :)
>
> CPAN: Driven by users. Java (JCP) Driven by vendors.
Tomcat logging: driven by Java Hammer (tm) manufacturers.



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[Rainer Jung-3]

I suspect some conspiracy is going on: just bought a book during
ApacheCon US and on the flyleaf with citations it contains:

"To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" (Mark Twain)

...

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