[PROPOSAL] Apache OpenMeetings incubator for Web Conferencing

[Sebastian Wagner]

hi,

we would like to propose Openmeetings project to join the incubator.

Full Proposal:
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenmeetingsProposal

Quick summary:
OpenMeetings is Web Conferencing application that fits into educational or
business sector. You can make conference sessions in different room-types
with up to 100 peoples in a Room. It contains all main features of Web
Conferencing: Audio/Video, Whiteboard, Screen Sharing, Chat and Moderation
System. It is translated into more then 20 languages and its a basic goal of
OpenMeetings to be easy to embed into existing environments. It already uses
many of Apache Technologies like Tomcat, Mina, Velocity, Commons, ...

You may find all existing documents and further material on the GoogleCode
pages: http://code.google.com/p/openmeetings/


We appreciate any feedback and comments on the proposal.


sebastian wagner
--
Sebastian Wagner
http://www.webbase-design.de
http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
http://www.laszlo-forum.de
seba.wagner@...

[Paul Querna-6]

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 4:22 AM, Sebastian Wagner <seba.wagner@...> wrote:

> hi,
>
> we would like to propose Openmeetings project to join the incubator.
>
> Full Proposal:
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenmeetingsProposal
>
> Quick summary:
> OpenMeetings is Web Conferencing application that fits into educational or
> business sector. You can make conference sessions in different room-types
> with up to 100 peoples in a Room. It contains all main features of Web
> Conferencing: Audio/Video, Whiteboard, Screen Sharing, Chat and Moderation
> System. It is translated into more then 20 languages and its a basic goal of
> OpenMeetings to be easy to embed into existing environments. It already uses
> many of Apache Technologies like Tomcat, Mina, Velocity, Commons, ...
>
> You may find all existing documents and further material on the GoogleCode
> pages: http://code.google.com/p/openmeetings/
>

Sounds cool!

I do have a question about how the project uses Red5 Media Server.
Red5 is licensed under the LGPL, how exactly does OpenMeetings use it?

Thanks,

Paul

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[Nick Kew-3]

On 27 Oct 2009, at 11:22, Sebastian Wagner wrote:

> hi,
>
> we would like to propose Openmeetings project to join the incubator.
>
> Full Proposal:
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenmeetingsProposal

Wow, two new proposals in a day!

Would be good to get a feeling for what this is.  Is www.openmeetings.de
a genuine free-for-all to sign up and play?  And what would be a good
time of day to find life there?

--
Nick Kew

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[Alexei Fedotov]

Hello Paul,
Thanks for a good question!

Openmeetings is red5 application which is very close to ordinary web
application. AFAIU, the last change by Sebastian makes them even
closer by implementing ".war" deployment. The code of the projects
does not overlap in any way, and projects are connected via dynamic
linking. AFAIK, dynamic linking of separate modules is permitted by
LGPL.

Digging this deeper, most dynamic linking is with a web server (i.e.
Tomcat or Jetty) embedded into Red5, which is Apache licensed. To the
best of my knowledge openmeetings communicate with a media server
mostly using sockets, so some distribution re-packs may eliminate even
dynamic linking.




On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Paul Querna <paul@...> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 4:22 AM, Sebastian Wagner <seba.wagner@...> wrote:
>> hi,
>>
>> we would like to propose Openmeetings project to join the incubator.
>>
>> Full Proposal:
>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenmeetingsProposal
>>
>> Quick summary:
>> OpenMeetings is Web Conferencing application that fits into educational or
>> business sector. You can make conference sessions in different room-types
>> with up to 100 peoples in a Room. It contains all main features of Web
>> Conferencing: Audio/Video, Whiteboard, Screen Sharing, Chat and Moderation
>> System. It is translated into more then 20 languages and its a basic goal of
>> OpenMeetings to be easy to embed into existing environments. It already uses
>> many of Apache Technologies like Tomcat, Mina, Velocity, Commons, ...
>>
>> You may find all existing documents and further material on the GoogleCode
>> pages: http://code.google.com/p/openmeetings/
>>
>
> Sounds cool!
>
> I do have a question about how the project uses Red5 Media Server.
> Red5 is licensed under the LGPL, how exactly does OpenMeetings use it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
>
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--
With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
http://www.telecom-express.ru/
http://harmony.apache.org/
http://www.expressaas.com/
http://openmeetings.googlecode.com/

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[Alexei Fedotov]

Hello Nick,
There is a "Not a member" button [1] on the first page to get a free
account. If you doesn't mind Russian field names during registration
you can try [2] as a localization example.

[1] http://www.openmeetings.de/
[2] http://www.telebridge.ru/


On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 1:38 AM, Nick Kew <niq@...> wrote:

>
> On 27 Oct 2009, at 11:22, Sebastian Wagner wrote:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> we would like to propose Openmeetings project to join the incubator.
>>
>> Full Proposal:
>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenmeetingsProposal
>
> Wow, two new proposals in a day!
>
> Would be good to get a feeling for what this is.  Is www.openmeetings.de
> a genuine free-for-all to sign up and play?  And what would be a good
> time of day to find life there?
>
> --
> Nick Kew
>
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>

--
With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
http://www.telecom-express.ru/
http://harmony.apache.org/
http://www.expressaas.com/
http://openmeetings.googlecode.com/

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[Ian Boston]

Openmeetings looks very interesting. I notice Red5, and see Paul  
Querna asked a question. I have 2 questions for my own education more  
than anything,

What's the status of OpenLazlo wrt Apache Projects? I see it has a  
long list of dependencies with all sorts of licenses [1] but have no  
idea if there is a runtime or distribution binding that matters ?

I hate to bring this up , but I have to ask (sorry)
Also, are there any problems between Red5 and Adobe in terms of  
patents on the Flash Media Server protocols. IIRC Adobe have some  
patents in this area but I have no idea if they are relevant and  
enforceable or would want to enforce them against an open source  
project?


Ian

1 http://www.openlaszlo.org/lps4.2/docs/developers/licenses.html


On 27 Oct 2009, at 11:22, Sebastian Wagner wrote:

> hi,
>
> we would like to propose Openmeetings project to join the incubator.
>
> Full Proposal:
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenmeetingsProposal
>
> Quick summary:
> OpenMeetings is Web Conferencing application that fits into  
> educational or
> business sector. You can make conference sessions in different room-
> types
> with up to 100 peoples in a Room. It contains all main features of Web
> Conferencing: Audio/Video, Whiteboard, Screen Sharing, Chat and  
> Moderation
> System. It is translated into more then 20 languages and its a basic  
> goal of
> OpenMeetings to be easy to embed into existing environments. It  
> already uses
> many of Apache Technologies like Tomcat, Mina, Velocity, Commons, ...
>
> You may find all existing documents and further material on the  
> GoogleCode
> pages: http://code.google.com/p/openmeetings/
>
>
> We appreciate any feedback and comments on the proposal.
>
>
> sebastian wagner
> --
> Sebastian Wagner
> http://www.webbase-design.de
> http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
> http://www.laszlo-forum.de
> seba.wagner@...

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[Niclas Hedhman]

On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Ian Boston <ieb@...> wrote:

> Also, are there any problems between Red5 and Adobe in terms of patents on
> the Flash Media Server protocols. IIRC Adobe have some patents in this area
> but I have no idea if they are relevant and enforceable or would want to
> enforce them against an open source project?

We (ASF) has no need to know. If the contributors has been contacted
by Adobe, they should mention it, otherwise it is nothing we go around
digging in. Our position is that there are no problems, until
contacted of otherwise.


Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java

I  live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I  work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug

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[Sebastian Wagner]

hi,

OpenLaszlo is used for compiling the Client. You don't need it to run the
Application. So it is not needed to re-destribute OpenLaszlo.
It is linked into the Application as Library, when you have compiled the
code you can remove OpenLaszlo's Framework.

Red5 does no transcoding. That is why its not relevant for Adobe Patents.
Red5 actually acts like a Proxy. It just takes what you send there and
broadcasts it to others. Besides that the RTMP Specification is meanwhile an
Open Specification published by Adobe:
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/rtmp/
So there should be no Issue in red5 itself. But anyway, we use Red5 just
like a Library, we don't modify Red5-Code. We use the API that it provides
to connect to the clients and the other way round.


sebastian


2009/10/28 Niclas Hedhman <niclas@...>

> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Ian Boston <ieb@...> wrote:
>
> > Also, are there any problems between Red5 and Adobe in terms of patents
> on
> > the Flash Media Server protocols. IIRC Adobe have some patents in this
> area
> > but I have no idea if they are relevant and enforceable or would want to
> > enforce them against an open source project?
>
> We (ASF) has no need to know. If the contributors has been contacted
> by Adobe, they should mention it, otherwise it is nothing we go around
> digging in. Our position is that there are no problems, until
> contacted of otherwise.
>
>
> Cheers
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
>
> I  live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
> I  work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
>
>

--
Sebastian Wagner
http://www.webbase-design.de
http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
http://www.laszlo-forum.de
seba.wagner@...

[Alexei Fedotov]

Hello Ian,

Thanks for raising questions. As for OpenLaszlo, I cannot say much.
Some Apache projects use Microsoft compiler, that's legal. I believe
it is quite doable to build OpenLaszlo completely on Apache stack, but
that project has their own authors.

As for Red5, the situation is good and became better. Red5 is no more
than a proxy which re-sends packets from one Adobe player to another.
This is good because we do not dig into Adobe's rtmp packets, and
especially into h.264 codec frames. This saves us from patent
violations. This has some drawback: we cannot mix all video streams
into one - we can just forward them as is. When we get free and
patent-free open souce codecs, we can replace a traffic layer with a
FOSS one.

The better thing is that Adobe finally opened RTMP specification [1].
The specification license prohibits unintended use of rtmp for for
violating digital protection (this somehow relates to new GPL v.3
features) and intercepting video, othewise it is ok.

Disclaimer. IMHO. IANAL.

[1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/rtmp/pdf/rtmp_specification_1.0.pdf

On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Ian Boston <ieb@...> wrote:

> Openmeetings looks very interesting. I notice Red5, and see Paul Querna
> asked a question. I have 2 questions for my own education more than
> anything,
>
> What's the status of OpenLazlo wrt Apache Projects? I see it has a long list
> of dependencies with all sorts of licenses [1] but have no idea if there is
> a runtime or distribution binding that matters ?
>
> I hate to bring this up , but I have to ask (sorry)
> Also, are there any problems between Red5 and Adobe in terms of patents on
> the Flash Media Server protocols. IIRC Adobe have some patents in this area
> but I have no idea if they are relevant and enforceable or would want to
> enforce them against an open source project?
>
>
> Ian
>
> 1 http://www.openlaszlo.org/lps4.2/docs/developers/licenses.html
>
>
> On 27 Oct 2009, at 11:22, Sebastian Wagner wrote:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> we would like to propose Openmeetings project to join the incubator.
>>
>> Full Proposal:
>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenmeetingsProposal
>>
>> Quick summary:
>> OpenMeetings is Web Conferencing application that fits into educational or
>> business sector. You can make conference sessions in different room-types
>> with up to 100 peoples in a Room. It contains all main features of Web
>> Conferencing: Audio/Video, Whiteboard, Screen Sharing, Chat and Moderation
>> System. It is translated into more then 20 languages and its a basic goal
>> of
>> OpenMeetings to be easy to embed into existing environments. It already
>> uses
>> many of Apache Technologies like Tomcat, Mina, Velocity, Commons, ...
>>
>> You may find all existing documents and further material on the GoogleCode
>> pages: http://code.google.com/p/openmeetings/
>>
>>
>> We appreciate any feedback and comments on the proposal.
>>
>>
>> sebastian wagner
>> --
>> Sebastian Wagner
>> http://www.webbase-design.de
>> http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
>> http://www.laszlo-forum.de
>> seba.wagner@...
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
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>

--
With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
http://www.telecom-express.ru/
http://harmony.apache.org/
http://www.expressaas.com/
http://openmeetings.googlecode.com/

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[Ian Boston]

On 28 Oct 2009, at 14:18, Sebastian Wagner wrote:

> hi,
>
> OpenLaszlo is used for compiling the Client. You don't need it to  
> run the
> Application. So it is not needed to re-destribute OpenLaszlo.
> It is linked into the Application as Library, when you have compiled  
> the
> code you can remove OpenLaszlo's Framework.
>
> Red5 does no transcoding. That is why its not relevant for Adobe  
> Patents.
> Red5 actually acts like a Proxy. It just takes what you send there and
> broadcasts it to others. Besides that the RTMP Specification is  
> meanwhile an
> Open Specification published by Adobe:
> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/rtmp/
> So there should be no Issue in red5 itself. But anyway, we use Red5  
> just
> like a Library, we don't modify Red5-Code. We use the API that it  
> provides
> to connect to the clients and the other way round.

Ok, thanks I am informed and educated, sorry for digging.

>
>
> sebastian
>
>
> 2009/10/28 Niclas Hedhman <niclas@...>
>
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Ian Boston <ieb@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Also, are there any problems between Red5 and Adobe in terms of  
>>> patents
>> on
>>> the Flash Media Server protocols. IIRC Adobe have some patents in  
>>> this
>> area
>>> but I have no idea if they are relevant and enforceable or would  
>>> want to
>>> enforce them against an open source project?
>>
>> We (ASF) has no need to know. If the contributors has been contacted
>> by Adobe, they should mention it, otherwise it is nothing we go  
>> around
>> digging in. Our position is that there are no problems, until
>> contacted of otherwise.

Ok, position clarified, thanks.
Ian

>>
>>
>> Cheers
>> --
>> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
>> http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
>>
>> I  live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
>> I  work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
>> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Wagner
> http://www.webbase-design.de
> http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
> http://www.laszlo-forum.de
> seba.wagner@...

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[Leif Hedstrom-3]

On 10/28/2009 08:19 AM, Alexei Fedotov wrote:
> The better thing is that Adobe finally opened RTMP specification [1].
> The specification license prohibits unintended use of rtmp for for
> violating digital protection (this somehow relates to new GPL v.3
> features) and intercepting video, othewise it is ok.
>
> Disclaimer. IMHO. IANAL.
>
> [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/rtmp/pdf/rtmp_specification_1.0.pdf
>    


Maybe further down the road, we can work together and implement this as
a plugin for the Traffic Server project.  :)

-- Leif

[Note:  TS used to have streaming media protocol handlers, we ripped
them out for the initial OpenSource release, but we'll revisit that
later. Adding these as plugins instead of built-in the core is much
cleaner.].

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[Martin Cooper-2]

2009/10/28 Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@...>:

> Hello Paul,
> Thanks for a good question!
>
> Openmeetings is red5 application which is very close to ordinary web
> application. AFAIU, the last change by Sebastian makes them even
> closer by implementing ".war" deployment. The code of the projects
> does not overlap in any way, and projects are connected via dynamic
> linking. AFAIK, dynamic linking of separate modules is permitted by
> LGPL.
>
> Digging this deeper, most dynamic linking is with a web server (i.e.
> Tomcat or Jetty) embedded into Red5, which is Apache licensed. To the
> best of my knowledge openmeetings communicate with a media server
> mostly using sockets, so some distribution re-packs may eliminate even
> dynamic linking.

I don't believe you've answered what Paul was really asking, though.
Is it not true that OpenMeetings requires Red5 in order to function
properly? So that, if we cannot distribute Red5 as part of an ASF
distro, because of the license, we also cannot distribute a functional
OpenMeetings product? Or is there some alternative to Red5 that could
be distributed instead?

--
Martin Cooper

>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Paul Querna <paul@...> wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 4:22 AM, Sebastian Wagner <seba.wagner@...> wrote:
>>> hi,
>>>
>>> we would like to propose Openmeetings project to join the incubator.
>>>
>>> Full Proposal:
>>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenmeetingsProposal
>>>
>>> Quick summary:
>>> OpenMeetings is Web Conferencing application that fits into educational or
>>> business sector. You can make conference sessions in different room-types
>>> with up to 100 peoples in a Room. It contains all main features of Web
>>> Conferencing: Audio/Video, Whiteboard, Screen Sharing, Chat and Moderation
>>> System. It is translated into more then 20 languages and its a basic goal of
>>> OpenMeetings to be easy to embed into existing environments. It already uses
>>> many of Apache Technologies like Tomcat, Mina, Velocity, Commons, ...
>>>
>>> You may find all existing documents and further material on the GoogleCode
>>> pages: http://code.google.com/p/openmeetings/
>>>
>>
>> Sounds cool!
>>
>> I do have a question about how the project uses Red5 Media Server.
>> Red5 is licensed under the LGPL, how exactly does OpenMeetings use it?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Paul
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
> http://www.telecom-express.ru/
> http://harmony.apache.org/
> http://www.expressaas.com/
> http://openmeetings.googlecode.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
>
>

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[Sebastian Wagner]

hi,

openmeetings _can_ be distributed without red5. Red5 acts like Tomcat
(actually it is a modified Tomcat). And openmeetings is a webapp inside this
container. For easy usage and installation we distribute it as one package,
but its still clear the its red5 + openmeetings.

Is a LGPL Library a general Issue? For running the application we also use
hibernate.
Spring, Apache Batik and Apache Mina are also used, but these are all
already Apache Licenses projects. Hibernate is LGPL. Is this a conflict?


sebastian

2009/10/28 Leif Hedstrom <zwoop@...>

> On 10/28/2009 08:19 AM, Alexei Fedotov wrote:
>
>> The better thing is that Adobe finally opened RTMP specification [1].
>> The specification license prohibits unintended use of rtmp for for
>> violating digital protection (this somehow relates to new GPL v.3
>> features) and intercepting video, othewise it is ok.
>>
>> Disclaimer. IMHO. IANAL.
>>
>> [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/rtmp/pdf/rtmp_specification_1.0.pdf
>>
>>
>
>
> Maybe further down the road, we can work together and implement this as a
> plugin for the Traffic Server project.  :)
>
> -- Leif
>
> [Note:  TS used to have streaming media protocol handlers, we ripped them
> out for the initial OpenSource release, but we'll revisit that later. Adding
> these as plugins instead of built-in the core is much cleaner.].
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
>
>

--
Sebastian Wagner
http://www.webbase-design.de
http://openmeetings.googlecode.com
http://www.laszlo-forum.de
seba.wagner@...

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 4:10 AM, Sebastian Wagner <seba.wagner@...> wrote:

> Is a LGPL Library a general Issue? For running the application we also use
> hibernate.
> Spring, Apache Batik and Apache Mina are also used, but these are all
> already Apache Licenses projects. Hibernate is LGPL. Is this a conflict?

For "hard dependencies" then LGPL is an issue. If you ship optional
features which relies on LGPL components, then that is generally Ok.

Some questions on this are already answered;
http://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html , but if in doubt contact
legal-discuss@... for clarifications prior to shipping
non-Apache licensed material.


Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java

I  live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I  work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug

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[Niclas Hedhman]

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 4:10 AM, Sebastian Wagner <seba.wagner@...> wrote:

> For running the application we also use
> hibernate.

For Hibernate, try to convert the application to use the JPA API
instead, then you can ship with OpenJPA from Apache and allow users to
use Hibernate instead if they want.


Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java

I  live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I  work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug

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[Alexei Fedotov]

Hello Martin,
I may fail to understand Paul's question, indeed. Let me give my best
try to answer to your questions.

> Is it not true that OpenMeetings requires Red5 in order to function
properly?
True.
The Openmeetings requires Red5 to function properly.

> So that, if we cannot distribute Red5 as part of an ASF distro, because of the license, we also cannot distribute a functional
OpenMeetings product?
Not true.
Openmeetings can be distributed without Red5.

>  Or is there some alternative to Red5 that could be distributed instead?
I believe it is possible to use Adobe Flash Media Server as a
substitution for Red5, but we cannot distribute Adobe FMS that for
sure.

In your last question you assume that we cannot distribute Red5. I
don't think this is a valid problem.

1. Anyone can distribute GPL-licensed binary, or LGPL-licensed
library. The virus problems begin when you try to modify the source of
the product. This always requires proper attributions in COPYRIGHT
file, but anyway.

2. Apache may have more strict guidelines on distributions. Nothing
prevents us to write a small Apache-licensed Red5 installer and
distribute it instead.

3. The truth is that currently Openmeetings is not built on pure
Apache stack. I cannot see a problem here. Most Apache products used
Sun's java when there was no Harmony, and Sun's vm was not even FOSS.

Since I'm not a layer, I can be mistaken here. Martin, please, let me
know, if you find error in my conclusions.



2009/10/28 Martin Cooper <martinc@...>:

> 2009/10/28 Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@...>:
>> Hello Paul,
>> Thanks for a good question!
>>
>> Openmeetings is red5 application which is very close to ordinary web
>> application. AFAIU, the last change by Sebastian makes them even
>> closer by implementing ".war" deployment. The code of the projects
>> does not overlap in any way, and projects are connected via dynamic
>> linking. AFAIK, dynamic linking of separate modules is permitted by
>> LGPL.
>>
>> Digging this deeper, most dynamic linking is with a web server (i.e.
>> Tomcat or Jetty) embedded into Red5, which is Apache licensed. To the
>> best of my knowledge openmeetings communicate with a media server
>> mostly using sockets, so some distribution re-packs may eliminate even
>> dynamic linking.
>
> I don't believe you've answered what Paul was really asking, though.
> Is it not true that OpenMeetings requires Red5 in order to function
> properly? So that, if we cannot distribute Red5 as part of an ASF
> distro, because of the license, we also cannot distribute a functional
> OpenMeetings product? Or is there some alternative to Red5 that could
> be distributed instead?
>
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Paul Querna <paul@...> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 4:22 AM, Sebastian Wagner <seba.wagner@...> wrote:
>>>> hi,
>>>>
>>>> we would like to propose Openmeetings project to join the incubator.
>>>>
>>>> Full Proposal:
>>>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/OpenmeetingsProposal
>>>>
>>>> Quick summary:
>>>> OpenMeetings is Web Conferencing application that fits into educational or
>>>> business sector. You can make conference sessions in different room-types
>>>> with up to 100 peoples in a Room. It contains all main features of Web
>>>> Conferencing: Audio/Video, Whiteboard, Screen Sharing, Chat and Moderation
>>>> System. It is translated into more then 20 languages and its a basic goal of
>>>> OpenMeetings to be easy to embed into existing environments. It already uses
>>>> many of Apache Technologies like Tomcat, Mina, Velocity, Commons, ...
>>>>
>>>> You may find all existing documents and further material on the GoogleCode
>>>> pages: http://code.google.com/p/openmeetings/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds cool!
>>>
>>> I do have a question about how the project uses Red5 Media Server.
>>> Red5 is licensed under the LGPL, how exactly does OpenMeetings use it?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
>> Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
>> http://www.telecom-express.ru/
>> http://harmony.apache.org/
>> http://www.expressaas.com/
>> http://openmeetings.googlecode.com/
>>
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>>
>
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--
With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
http://www.telecom-express.ru/
http://harmony.apache.org/
http://www.expressaas.com/
http://openmeetings.googlecode.com/

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[Alexei Fedotov]

Hello Niclas,
Thanks for a link [1]! It reads:
> The LGPL is ineligible primarily due to the restrictions it places on larger works

Well, I believe if lawyers said that, they have enough attribution.
Though I always thought that LGPL is GPL limited to the library scope.
How does LGPL place restrictions on larger works?

[1] http://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html

On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 5:54 AM, Niclas Hedhman <niclas@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 4:10 AM, Sebastian Wagner <seba.wagner@...> wrote:
>
>> Is a LGPL Library a general Issue? For running the application we also use
>> hibernate.
>> Spring, Apache Batik and Apache Mina are also used, but these are all
>> already Apache Licenses projects. Hibernate is LGPL. Is this a conflict?
>
> For "hard dependencies" then LGPL is an issue. If you ship optional
> features which relies on LGPL components, then that is generally Ok.
>
> Some questions on this are already answered;
> http://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html , but if in doubt contact
> legal-discuss@... for clarifications prior to shipping
> non-Apache licensed material.
>
>
> Cheers
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
>
> I  live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
> I  work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
>
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>

--
With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
http://www.telecom-express.ru/
http://harmony.apache.org/
http://www.expressaas.com/
http://openmeetings.googlecode.com/

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[Niclas Hedhman]

2009/10/29 Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@...>:

> How does LGPL place restrictions on larger works?

The main issue is section 6 in LGPL, namely we would have to ensure
that downstream users are allowed to reverse engineer the "derived
works". So what does that really mean?

LGPL defines linking to it with dynamic languages as "derived work",
so IF you 'depend' on the LGPL library your work is "a derivative
work" of that library. Therefor, the library owner places restrictions
on how this combination may or may not be used. A typical scenario,

1. Apache Foo depends on LGPL library Bar.
2. Company XYZ creates a variant of Foo, licenses it commercially,
still depending on Bar.
3. Company XYZ MUST now allow their product to be reverse engineered,
to resolve issues of upgrading of Bar by XYZ's customers.
4. Hence we must place the same Section 6 restriction on Foo, which is
against our policy.

Many (not all) commercial licenses prohibits reverse engineering of
the code, and Apache is all about allowing commercialization of our
codebases.

HTH

And the reason we basically allow optional dependencies on LGPL work
is because XYZ would then both have a choice. Such "optionality" also
has a tendency to make the Foo codebase modular, allowing XYZ to make
its own implementation of the troubled code.


Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java

I  live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I  work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug

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[Niclas Hedhman]

2009/10/29 Alexei Fedotov <alexei.fedotov@...>:

> 1. Anyone can distribute GPL-licensed binary, or LGPL-licensed
> library. The virus problems begin when you try to modify the source of
> the product. This always requires proper attributions in COPYRIGHT
> file, but anyway.

Correct (to a point), see separate mail.

> 2. Apache may have more strict guidelines on distributions. Nothing
> prevents us to write a small Apache-licensed Red5 installer and
> distribute it instead.

Not really necessary. Users can do the download themselves.

> 3. The truth is that currently Openmeetings is not built on pure
> Apache stack. I cannot see a problem here. Most Apache products used
> Sun's java when there was no Harmony, and Sun's vm was not even FOSS.

IMHO, and IANAL either, this is a case where;

1. I think it is Ok if the project lists "Red5" or "Adobe FMS" as
"System Requirements" as it is clearly very tied to this kind of
technology.

2. That this or new/separate project later develops such a server at Apache.



Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java

I  live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I  work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug

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[Noel J. Bergman]

Sounds very interesting.  In addition to the existing question related to
licening, can you also comment on the problem domain overlap with BlueSky?
It seems to me that there might be good synergies.

        --- Noel



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