[RFC] localechooser: template changes
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[RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Frans Pop-3
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Re: [RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Christian Perrier
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Quoting Frans Pop (elendil@...):
> The existing templates for the four main questions in localechooser all > have problems: they cause Lintian warnings and don't really help the > user with what he's doing. Thanks for working on this. It was on my TODO list for a while as I found quite strange to enfore some style improvements in many packages through Smith reviews...and omit to "correct" thos I use in D-I..:) > --- a/packages/localechooser/debian/localechooser.templates-in > +++ b/packages/localechooser/debian/localechooser.templates-in > @@ -11,9 +11,8 @@ Template: debian-installer/locale > Type: select > Choices: ${LOCALELIST} > # :sl2: > -_Description: Choose a locale: > - Based on your language and country choices, the following locale > - parameters are supported. > +_Description: System locale: > + Select the default locale for the installed system. push in dle reviews (avoid imperative form). Apart from that, fine by me. > > Template: debian-installer/fallbacklocale > Type: select > @@ -49,9 +48,9 @@ Choices-C: ${CODES} > Choices: ${NAMES_EN} > Choices-en.UTF-8: ${NAMES_BOTH} > Default: en > -Description: Choose a language: > - Please choose the language used for the installation process. This > - language will be the default language for the final system. > +Description: Language: > + Choose the language to be used for the installation process. The selected > + language will also be the default language for the installed system. > > Template: localechooser/translation/none-yet > Type: note > @@ -141,16 +140,25 @@ Type: select > # :sl1: > __Choices: ${SHORTLIST}, other > # :sl1: > -_Description: Choose a country, territory or area: > - Based on your language, you are probably located in one of these countries > - or regions. > +_Description: Country, territory or area: > + Select the country where you live. The selection will be used for example to > + select a default locale and time zone. > + . > + Choose "other" if your country is not listed. that the user installing the system is the one "owning" the machine, which is not well suited in all cases. Also, the user might be living somewhere but installing the machine elsewhere. Of course, what matters here is probably more the place where the machine is living..:-) The former template had the same "problem" of course. Please select the country where the installed system is used. The selection will set the default locale and time zone. Choose "other" to get the full list of countries. > Template: localechooser/supported-locales > Type: multiselect > Choices: ${LOCALELIST} > # :sl2: > -_Description: Choose other locales to be supported: > - You may choose additional locales to be installed from this list. > +_Description: Additional locales: > + A locale determines character encoding and contains information on e.g. > + currency, date format and alphabetical sort order. Based on the selected > + language and country, the default locale selected for the installed system > + is '${LOCALE}'. > + . > + If you wish to use a different default or to also have other locales available, > + you may choose additional locales to be installed. If you are unsure it is > + best to simply stick with the default. of course polluted by Latin) that "latin" abbreviations such as "e.g." are not highly wished in English. "such as" would then be recommended. Apart from that, everything is fine, except maybe the length of the two paragrpahs, that takes a lot of spaces and leaves few romm for the list on 80x25 systems. > --- a/packages/localechooser/mktemplates.continents > +++ b/packages/localechooser/mktemplates.continents > @@ -100,6 +100,9 @@ foreach my $region (@known_regions) { > print TOUT "#flag:partial\n"; > print TOUT "__Choices: ", join(", ", @countries), "\n"; > print TOUT "_Description: ", gettext("Choose a country, territory or area:"), "\n"; > + print TOUT " ", gettext("Select the country where you live. The selection will be used for example to select a default locale and time zone."), "\n"; > + print TOUT " .\n"; > + print TOUT " ", gettext("Choose \"other\" if your country is not listed."), "\n"; > print TOUT "\n"; > } else { > print STDERR "I: skipping region $region: no associated countries in $regionmap\n"; > @@ -111,8 +114,8 @@ print TOUT "Template: localechooser/continentlist\n"; > print TOUT "Type: select\n"; > print TOUT "#flag:partial\n"; > print TOUT "__Choices: ", join(", ", @regions), "\n"; > -print TOUT "_Description: ", gettext("Choose a continent or region:"), "\n"; > -print TOUT " ", gettext("The continent or region in which the desired country is located."), "\n"; > +print TOUT "_Description: ", gettext("Continent or region:"), "\n"; > +print TOUT " ", gettext("Select the continent or region in which the country where you live is located."), "\n"; "Please select the continent or region in which the country this system is used is located." |
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Re: [RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Frans Pop-3
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Re: [RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Christian Perrier
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Quoting Frans Pop (elendil@...):
> > I'd just recommend "Please select" which is the style we generally > > push in dle reviews (avoid imperative form). > > Using the imperative form is wrong in the *short* description (which was > the problem in the old version), but IMO in a lot of cases it's fine for > the *extended* description. I did not add the "please"s on purpose, > basically because they've started to annoy me. > > For the extended description we should distinguish between text that is a > *request* and text that provides *instruction*. In the first case > adding "please" is fine (even needed), in the second case it's IMO > redundant. the French translation... > > > Template: localechooser/translation/none-yet > > > Type: note > > > @@ -141,16 +140,25 @@ Type: select > > > # :sl1: > > > __Choices: ${SHORTLIST}, other > > > # :sl1: > > > -_Description: Choose a country, territory or area: > > > - Based on your language, you are probably located in one of these > > > countries - or regions. > > > +_Description: Country, territory or area: > > > + Select the country where you live. The selection will be used for > > > example to + select a default locale and time zone. > > > + . > > > + Choose "other" if your country is not listed. > > > > That one is more tricky. Using "where you live" implicitely assumes > > that the user installing the system is the one "owning" the machine, > > which is not well suited in all cases. Also, the user might be living > > somewhere but installing the machine elsewhere. Of course, what > > matters here is probably more the place where the machine is > > living..:-) > > > > The former template had the same "problem" of course. > > > > Please select the country where the installed system is used. > > This is a lot less clear. > > My proposed text is fine for the general case where users install their own > systems. People installing systems for others will know how to "translate" > the request for their situation (and even then the selection will be "the > country where they live" in >95% of cases). > > Saying "the country where you live" is IMO the simplest way to avoid the > reports from users that they did not get the correct time zone. > > It is also more logical for the situation where a user installs a portable > system while on holiday. And remember that portable systems can and will > be "used" all over the world. (please) Select the country that will be used, for example, to select a default locale and time zone. That would avoid the ambiguous "where you live". > > Choose "other" to get the full list of countries. > > Problem is that you don't get a "full list of countries", you get a list of > continents... We could turn this to "Choose "other" to choos a country that is not listed here." > > Apart from that, everything is fine, except maybe the length of the > > two paragrpahs, that takes a lot of spaces and leaves few romm for the > > list on 80x25 systems. > > It still leaves 10 lines for selection with vga=normal, so it's not that > bad. But I've now moved the first sentence to a separate "help" template; > this saves 2 lines, so now 12 lines are displayed. Yes. We should by the way make better use of these help templates, indeed. Could be useful for our country selection detailed instructions. |
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Re: [RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Frans Pop-3
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Re: [RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Christian Perrier
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Quoting Frans Pop (elendil@...):
> I've been uncomfortable with "please" for quite some time, but could never > really say why, so I did not make a point of it. For the Dutch translation > we mostly just drop them. Any attempt to preserve it makes the translation > sound artificial. You have some point here (particularly the cookbook example: nice catch) Actually, this began as an effort to drop the abuse of imperative form (I always learned that imperative is...what it's name says, a way to point something as "to be done" and "madatory"...up to "this is an order"). I agree that this turned out into an abuse of "please". I'll try to avoid exxagerating at this in English reviews (you should show up sometimes on dle, I'm sure you would help improving things even more). > > I'll use the polite form in the French translation... > > Of course you should do what's correct in French for your translation; > different languages have different requirements. But it may be worth > checking a few French cookery-books ;-) Most actually use the infinitive form (which is possible in French but not in English). But, yeah, I agree that very few (if any) use what I call the "polite" form as "Veuillez faire fondre le beurre". > > (please) Select the country that will be used, for example, to select > > a default locale and time zone. > > IMO that's a lot less clear for users. An instruction does not have to be > literally correct in 100% of cases. It has to convey the correct > intention. I'll apparently have hard times convincing you on that matter... > In the case of country selection it is IMO essential to make users > installing their own system (people not doing multiple installations, but > using the installer only once) pick the correct choice on the first > attempt in order to avoid incorrect locales (especially at default > priority) or time zones (especially as that is not even displayed at > default priority for countries that only have one). > > "The country where you live" is IMO by far the simplest, clearest and most > intuitive description to achieve that. Well, OK, I'm not entirely convinced but I apparently can't propose a sufficiently correct alternative to makje you change your mind..:-) Could we summarize on what we have now? |
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Re: [RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Frans Pop-3
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Re: [RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Christian Perrier
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Quoting Frans Pop (elendil@...):
> On Wednesday 04 November 2009, Christian Perrier wrote: > > Well, OK, I'm not entirely convinced but I apparently can't propose a > > sufficiently correct alternative to makje you change your mind..:-) > > Here's an alternative I could live with: That's fine by me. Thanks! |
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Re: [RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Frans Pop-3
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Re: [RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Christian Perrier
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Quoting Frans Pop (elendil@...):
> Here's a new overview of the proposed changes. Everything is fine by me, including: > NEW (same for shortlists and per-continent lists) > The country selected here will be used for example to select a default > locale and time zone. Normally this should be the country where you live. > > Choose "other" if your country is not listed. *) > > Country, territory or area: .../... > *) Should we for shortlists maybe change this line to: > This is a shortlist based on the language you selected. Choose "other" > if your country is not listed. I like that last option. That makes one additional string but it's certainly worth it. |
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Re: [RFC] localechooser: template changes
by Frans Pop-3
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