[Tapestry Central] Caught between Two IDEs

[Howard Lewis Ship]

I seem to be caught between two IDEs: Eclipse and IntelliJ. I abandoned
Eclipse a couple of years back, partly based on wide spread
recommendations from many different people, and partly because Eclipse
just stopped working for me (it crashed out).
After I got started with IntelliJ I started to appreciate its merits,
despite a generally clunky interface (with lots of modal windows),
truly awful documentation. Many things are streamlined and only a
ctrl-alt-shift-coke-bottle-touch-your-nose away.
However, over time, using IntelliJ got slower and slower and slower. It
also started running the Tapestry test suite horrifically slowly: 40
minutes and up (it should be about five). It would often go away, even
when memory wasn't tight. Indexing? Checking Repositories? Computing
primes? No way to tell.
Meanwhile, Eclipse has been moving forward, with Eclipse Galileo being
a Cocoa (not a Carbon) application. Critical plugins such as M2Eclipse
have gotten nice, and the Clojure plugin is mostly better than the
IntelliJ one (though both are very early).
For a while I was using IntelliJ when teaching Tapestry (as part of the
VMWare image I use when training) ... and I got a lot of resistance.
People were much happier with Eclipse on the last couple of go-rounds,
and I'm sticking with it.
Overall, I'm feeling that most of what I've grown used to in IntelliJ
is present in Eclipse, just handled a bit differently. The Clojure
plugins are a wash; IntelliJ has the edge on the Git plugin. I think
Subversion inside Eclipse is actually better.
I've even cranked up NetBeans but didn't find anything there compelling
enough to switch.
It seems like all my major tools (Firefox, Firebug, Eclipse, IntelliJ)
are in the habit of growing too complex, and doing too much stuff in
the background that I don't care about. All those intentions in
IntelliJ that you have to turn off (for performance reasons), and all
those extra plugins for Eclipse that you need to not download in the
first place ... they're all getting in my way.
I think a lot of this falls into the general category of accidental
complexity ... to address the limitations of the Java programming
language, all this extra stuff is coming into play: tools and wizards
and plugins and indexes and whatnot. I find it pretty pleasant to work
with Clojure instead, where the accidental complexity of Java is
managed and isolated and the IDE doesn't feel the need to be overly
ambitious. That's the Clojure concept right there ... grow the language
to your needs, rather than building up tools. I think that's the
Tapestry ethic as well.

--
Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 7/02/2009 01:10:00 PM

[Christian Edward Gruber-2]

I agree - I bounce back and forth as well, quite commonly.  I'm  
encouraged by Eclipse 3.5 for reasons you cite, but it's  
frustrating.   Every-so-often I seriously consider just a text editor  
and command-line, but things like re-factoring tools, etc, usually  
bring me back.

I'll tell you though, the one that gives me a NeXT-style  
InterfaceBuilder work-alike for Swing or SWT will probably win for  
me.  (And if someone let me build tapestry code that way... drag and  
drop GUIs... I'd definitely pay for that privilege)

Christian

On Jul 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Howard wrote:

> I seem to be caught between two IDEs: Eclipse and IntelliJ. I  
> abandoned
> Eclipse a couple of years back, partly based on wide spread
> recommendations from many different people, and partly because Eclipse
> just stopped working for me (it crashed out).
> After I got started with IntelliJ I started to appreciate its merits,
> despite a generally clunky interface (with lots of modal windows),
> truly awful documentation. Many things are streamlined and only a
> ctrl-alt-shift-coke-bottle-touch-your-nose away.
> However, over time, using IntelliJ got slower and slower and slower.  
> It
> also started running the Tapestry test suite horrifically slowly: 40
> minutes and up (it should be about five). It would often go away, even
> when memory wasn't tight. Indexing? Checking Repositories? Computing
> primes? No way to tell.
> Meanwhile, Eclipse has been moving forward, with Eclipse Galileo being
> a Cocoa (not a Carbon) application. Critical plugins such as M2Eclipse
> have gotten nice, and the Clojure plugin is mostly better than the
> IntelliJ one (though both are very early).
> For a while I was using IntelliJ when teaching Tapestry (as part of  
> the
> VMWare image I use when training) ... and I got a lot of resistance.
> People were much happier with Eclipse on the last couple of go-rounds,
> and I'm sticking with it.
> Overall, I'm feeling that most of what I've grown used to in IntelliJ
> is present in Eclipse, just handled a bit differently. The Clojure
> plugins are a wash; IntelliJ has the edge on the Git plugin. I think
> Subversion inside Eclipse is actually better.
> I've even cranked up NetBeans but didn't find anything there  
> compelling
> enough to switch.
> It seems like all my major tools (Firefox, Firebug, Eclipse, IntelliJ)
> are in the habit of growing too complex, and doing too much stuff in
> the background that I don't care about. All those intentions in
> IntelliJ that you have to turn off (for performance reasons), and all
> those extra plugins for Eclipse that you need to not download in the
> first place ... they're all getting in my way.
> I think a lot of this falls into the general category of accidental
> complexity ... to address the limitations of the Java programming
> language, all this extra stuff is coming into play: tools and wizards
> and plugins and indexes and whatnot. I find it pretty pleasant to work
> with Clojure instead, where the accidental complexity of Java is
> managed and isolated and the IDE doesn't feel the need to be overly
> ambitious. That's the Clojure concept right there ... grow the  
> language
> to your needs, rather than building up tools. I think that's the
> Tapestry ethic as well.
>
> --
> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 7/02/2009 01:10:00 PM

Christian Edward Gruber
christianedwardgruber@...
http://www.geekinasuit.com/


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[Angelo Chen]

I got two reasons not using Eclipse:

1) crashes, it just simply crashed even sitting there, probably it's getting better now.
2) don't know what to download, so many versions out there, and never find out which one is correct for me, in front of Eclipse I'm really a newbie:)

angelo

Christian Edward Gruber-2 wrote:

I agree - I bounce back and forth as well, quite commonly.  I'm  
encouraged by Eclipse 3.5 for reasons you cite, but it's  
frustrating.   Every-so-often I seriously consider just a text editor  
and command-line, but things like re-factoring tools, etc, usually  
bring me back.

I'll tell you though, the one that gives me a NeXT-style  
InterfaceBuilder work-alike for Swing or SWT will probably win for  
me.  (And if someone let me build tapestry code that way... drag and  
drop GUIs... I'd definitely pay for that privilege)

Christian

On Jul 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Howard wrote:

> I seem to be caught between two IDEs: Eclipse and IntelliJ. I  
> abandoned
> Eclipse a couple of years back, partly based on wide spread
> recommendations from many different people, and partly because Eclipse
> just stopped working for me (it crashed out).
> After I got started with IntelliJ I started to appreciate its merits,
> despite a generally clunky interface (with lots of modal windows),
> truly awful documentation. Many things are streamlined and only a
> ctrl-alt-shift-coke-bottle-touch-your-nose away.
> However, over time, using IntelliJ got slower and slower and slower.  
> It
> also started running the Tapestry test suite horrifically slowly: 40
> minutes and up (it should be about five). It would often go away, even
> when memory wasn't tight. Indexing? Checking Repositories? Computing
> primes? No way to tell.
> Meanwhile, Eclipse has been moving forward, with Eclipse Galileo being
> a Cocoa (not a Carbon) application. Critical plugins such as M2Eclipse
> have gotten nice, and the Clojure plugin is mostly better than the
> IntelliJ one (though both are very early).
> For a while I was using IntelliJ when teaching Tapestry (as part of  
> the
> VMWare image I use when training) ... and I got a lot of resistance.
> People were much happier with Eclipse on the last couple of go-rounds,
> and I'm sticking with it.
> Overall, I'm feeling that most of what I've grown used to in IntelliJ
> is present in Eclipse, just handled a bit differently. The Clojure
> plugins are a wash; IntelliJ has the edge on the Git plugin. I think
> Subversion inside Eclipse is actually better.
> I've even cranked up NetBeans but didn't find anything there  
> compelling
> enough to switch.
> It seems like all my major tools (Firefox, Firebug, Eclipse, IntelliJ)
> are in the habit of growing too complex, and doing too much stuff in
> the background that I don't care about. All those intentions in
> IntelliJ that you have to turn off (for performance reasons), and all
> those extra plugins for Eclipse that you need to not download in the
> first place ... they're all getting in my way.
> I think a lot of this falls into the general category of accidental
> complexity ... to address the limitations of the Java programming
> language, all this extra stuff is coming into play: tools and wizards
> and plugins and indexes and whatnot. I find it pretty pleasant to work
> with Clojure instead, where the accidental complexity of Java is
> managed and isolated and the IDE doesn't feel the need to be overly
> ambitious. That's the Clojure concept right there ... grow the  
> language
> to your needs, rather than building up tools. I think that's the
> Tapestry ethic as well.
>
> --
> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 7/02/2009 01:10:00 PM

Christian Edward Gruber
[e-mail]
http://www.geekinasuit.com/


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[Andy Pahne-6]

Angelo Chen schrieb:
> I got two reasons not using Eclipse:
>
> 1) crashes, it just simply crashed even sitting there, probably it's getting
> better now.
>  

I cannot confirm that. Eclipse works very stable for our little
development shop. When something screws up, maven is the culprit, at
least at our place.

I really like Mylyin and it's bugzilla integration, but must admit that
I don't know if InteliJ has something similar.




> 2) don't know what to download, so many versions out there, and never find
> out which one is correct for me, in front of Eclipse I'm really a newbie:)
>
>  


The "Eclipse IDE for Java developers" works quite well. But it is
annoying that some important plugins require extra effort to install
(like svn or RunJettyRun).

Andy


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[Craig St. Jean-4]

I haven't had Eclipse (or products based on it) crash in a LONG time.  I do
however have it lock up for a couple minutes at a time several times a day.
 Incredibly frustrating when you have unsaved files.

I remember I was using Eclipse 3.2 a couple of years ago and I timed it as
being locked up for literally 16 minutes, as I was trying to do a save
all... (though now its almost always less than 3 minutes)

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Angelo Chen <angelochen960@...>wrote:

>
> I got two reasons not using Eclipse:
>
> 1) crashes, it just simply crashed even sitting there, probably it's
> getting
> better now.
> 2) don't know what to download, so many versions out there, and never find
> out which one is correct for me, in front of Eclipse I'm really a newbie:)
>
> angelo
>
>
> Christian Edward Gruber-2 wrote:
> >
> > I agree - I bounce back and forth as well, quite commonly.  I'm
> > encouraged by Eclipse 3.5 for reasons you cite, but it's
> > frustrating.   Every-so-often I seriously consider just a text editor
> > and command-line, but things like re-factoring tools, etc, usually
> > bring me back.
> >
> > I'll tell you though, the one that gives me a NeXT-style
> > InterfaceBuilder work-alike for Swing or SWT will probably win for
> > me.  (And if someone let me build tapestry code that way... drag and
> > drop GUIs... I'd definitely pay for that privilege)
> >
> > Christian
> >
> > On Jul 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Howard wrote:
> >
> >> I seem to be caught between two IDEs: Eclipse and IntelliJ. I
> >> abandoned
> >> Eclipse a couple of years back, partly based on wide spread
> >> recommendations from many different people, and partly because Eclipse
> >> just stopped working for me (it crashed out).
> >> After I got started with IntelliJ I started to appreciate its merits,
> >> despite a generally clunky interface (with lots of modal windows),
> >> truly awful documentation. Many things are streamlined and only a
> >> ctrl-alt-shift-coke-bottle-touch-your-nose away.
> >> However, over time, using IntelliJ got slower and slower and slower.
> >> It
> >> also started running the Tapestry test suite horrifically slowly: 40
> >> minutes and up (it should be about five). It would often go away, even
> >> when memory wasn't tight. Indexing? Checking Repositories? Computing
> >> primes? No way to tell.
> >> Meanwhile, Eclipse has been moving forward, with Eclipse Galileo being
> >> a Cocoa (not a Carbon) application. Critical plugins such as M2Eclipse
> >> have gotten nice, and the Clojure plugin is mostly better than the
> >> IntelliJ one (though both are very early).
> >> For a while I was using IntelliJ when teaching Tapestry (as part of
> >> the
> >> VMWare image I use when training) ... and I got a lot of resistance.
> >> People were much happier with Eclipse on the last couple of go-rounds,
> >> and I'm sticking with it.
> >> Overall, I'm feeling that most of what I've grown used to in IntelliJ
> >> is present in Eclipse, just handled a bit differently. The Clojure
> >> plugins are a wash; IntelliJ has the edge on the Git plugin. I think
> >> Subversion inside Eclipse is actually better.
> >> I've even cranked up NetBeans but didn't find anything there
> >> compelling
> >> enough to switch.
> >> It seems like all my major tools (Firefox, Firebug, Eclipse, IntelliJ)
> >> are in the habit of growing too complex, and doing too much stuff in
> >> the background that I don't care about. All those intentions in
> >> IntelliJ that you have to turn off (for performance reasons), and all
> >> those extra plugins for Eclipse that you need to not download in the
> >> first place ... they're all getting in my way.
> >> I think a lot of this falls into the general category of accidental
> >> complexity ... to address the limitations of the Java programming
> >> language, all this extra stuff is coming into play: tools and wizards
> >> and plugins and indexes and whatnot. I find it pretty pleasant to work
> >> with Clojure instead, where the accidental complexity of Java is
> >> managed and isolated and the IDE doesn't feel the need to be overly
> >> ambitious. That's the Clojure concept right there ... grow the
> >> language
> >> to your needs, rather than building up tools. I think that's the
> >> Tapestry ethic as well.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 7/02/2009 01:10:00 PM
> >
> > Christian Edward Gruber
> > christianedwardgruber@...
> > http://www.geekinasuit.com/
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/-Tapestry-Central--Caught-between-Two-IDEs-tp24313658p24315185.html
> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>
>

[Norman Franke-2]

I've had periodic lockups as well. I generally suspect memory leaks  
and it's doing a garbage collection. I usually restart Eclipse when  
this happens, and my problems go away. However, I have to leave it  
running for weeks for this to happen. I've never had it crash. I'd add  
that it's updater mechanism, while getting better, still needs some  
work, and various updated mess stuff up. The latest J2EE perspective  
seems rather brain dead, hiding new files and refusing to refresh.  
Previous version't wouldn't sort new file properly, instead placing  
them in a random place. I've since moved back to the plain old Java  
perspective. All in all, I've been pretty happy with it.

Norman Franke
Answering Service for Directors, Inc.
www.myasd.com



On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:03 PM, Craig St. Jean wrote:

> I haven't had Eclipse (or products based on it) crash in a LONG  
> time.  I do
> however have it lock up for a couple minutes at a time several times  
> a day.
> Incredibly frustrating when you have unsaved files.
>
> I remember I was using Eclipse 3.2 a couple of years ago and I timed  
> it as
> being locked up for literally 16 minutes, as I was trying to do a save
> all... (though now its almost always less than 3 minutes)
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Angelo Chen <angelochen960@...
> >wrote:
>
>>
>> I got two reasons not using Eclipse:
>>
>> 1) crashes, it just simply crashed even sitting there, probably it's
>> getting
>> better now.
>> 2) don't know what to download, so many versions out there, and  
>> never find
>> out which one is correct for me, in front of Eclipse I'm really a  
>> newbie:)
>>
>> angelo
>>
>>
>> Christian Edward Gruber-2 wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree - I bounce back and forth as well, quite commonly.  I'm
>>> encouraged by Eclipse 3.5 for reasons you cite, but it's
>>> frustrating.   Every-so-often I seriously consider just a text  
>>> editor
>>> and command-line, but things like re-factoring tools, etc, usually
>>> bring me back.
>>>
>>> I'll tell you though, the one that gives me a NeXT-style
>>> InterfaceBuilder work-alike for Swing or SWT will probably win for
>>> me.  (And if someone let me build tapestry code that way... drag and
>>> drop GUIs... I'd definitely pay for that privilege)
>>>
>>> Christian
>>>
>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Howard wrote:
>>>
>>>> I seem to be caught between two IDEs: Eclipse and IntelliJ. I
>>>> abandoned
>>>> Eclipse a couple of years back, partly based on wide spread
>>>> recommendations from many different people, and partly because  
>>>> Eclipse
>>>> just stopped working for me (it crashed out).
>>>> After I got started with IntelliJ I started to appreciate its  
>>>> merits,
>>>> despite a generally clunky interface (with lots of modal windows),
>>>> truly awful documentation. Many things are streamlined and only a
>>>> ctrl-alt-shift-coke-bottle-touch-your-nose away.
>>>> However, over time, using IntelliJ got slower and slower and  
>>>> slower.
>>>> It
>>>> also started running the Tapestry test suite horrifically slowly:  
>>>> 40
>>>> minutes and up (it should be about five). It would often go away,  
>>>> even
>>>> when memory wasn't tight. Indexing? Checking Repositories?  
>>>> Computing
>>>> primes? No way to tell.
>>>> Meanwhile, Eclipse has been moving forward, with Eclipse Galileo  
>>>> being
>>>> a Cocoa (not a Carbon) application. Critical plugins such as  
>>>> M2Eclipse
>>>> have gotten nice, and the Clojure plugin is mostly better than the
>>>> IntelliJ one (though both are very early).
>>>> For a while I was using IntelliJ when teaching Tapestry (as part of
>>>> the
>>>> VMWare image I use when training) ... and I got a lot of  
>>>> resistance.
>>>> People were much happier with Eclipse on the last couple of go-
>>>> rounds,
>>>> and I'm sticking with it.
>>>> Overall, I'm feeling that most of what I've grown used to in  
>>>> IntelliJ
>>>> is present in Eclipse, just handled a bit differently. The Clojure
>>>> plugins are a wash; IntelliJ has the edge on the Git plugin. I  
>>>> think
>>>> Subversion inside Eclipse is actually better.
>>>> I've even cranked up NetBeans but didn't find anything there
>>>> compelling
>>>> enough to switch.
>>>> It seems like all my major tools (Firefox, Firebug, Eclipse,  
>>>> IntelliJ)
>>>> are in the habit of growing too complex, and doing too much stuff  
>>>> in
>>>> the background that I don't care about. All those intentions in
>>>> IntelliJ that you have to turn off (for performance reasons), and  
>>>> all
>>>> those extra plugins for Eclipse that you need to not download in  
>>>> the
>>>> first place ... they're all getting in my way.
>>>> I think a lot of this falls into the general category of accidental
>>>> complexity ... to address the limitations of the Java programming
>>>> language, all this extra stuff is coming into play: tools and  
>>>> wizards
>>>> and plugins and indexes and whatnot. I find it pretty pleasant to  
>>>> work
>>>> with Clojure instead, where the accidental complexity of Java is
>>>> managed and isolated and the IDE doesn't feel the need to be overly
>>>> ambitious. That's the Clojure concept right there ... grow the
>>>> language
>>>> to your needs, rather than building up tools. I think that's the
>>>> Tapestry ethic as well.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 7/02/2009 01:10:00 PM
>>>
>>> Christian Edward Gruber
>>> christianedwardgruber@...
>>> http://www.geekinasuit.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/-Tapestry-Central--Caught-between-Two-IDEs-tp24313658p24315185.html
>> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>>
>>

[Howard Lewis Ship]

Less is more with Eclipse.
At least it has a reasonable XML editor built in now, and RunJettyRun gets
the job done.  How much more do you need?  A better JavaScript and CSS
editor would also be nice, the question is how much bloat do I have to drag
in with those?

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Norman Franke <norman@...> wrote:

> I've had periodic lockups as well. I generally suspect memory leaks and
> it's doing a garbage collection. I usually restart Eclipse when this
> happens, and my problems go away. However, I have to leave it running for
> weeks for this to happen. I've never had it crash. I'd add that it's updater
> mechanism, while getting better, still needs some work, and various updated
> mess stuff up. The latest J2EE perspective seems rather brain dead, hiding
> new files and refusing to refresh. Previous version't wouldn't sort new file
> properly, instead placing them in a random place. I've since moved back to
> the plain old Java perspective. All in all, I've been pretty happy with it.
>
> Norman Franke
> Answering Service for Directors, Inc.
> www.myasd.com
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 9:03 PM, Craig St. Jean wrote:
>
>  I haven't had Eclipse (or products based on it) crash in a LONG time.  I
>> do
>> however have it lock up for a couple minutes at a time several times a
>> day.
>> Incredibly frustrating when you have unsaved files.
>>
>> I remember I was using Eclipse 3.2 a couple of years ago and I timed it as
>> being locked up for literally 16 minutes, as I was trying to do a save
>> all... (though now its almost always less than 3 minutes)
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Angelo Chen <angelochen960@...
>> >wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I got two reasons not using Eclipse:
>>>
>>> 1) crashes, it just simply crashed even sitting there, probably it's
>>> getting
>>> better now.
>>> 2) don't know what to download, so many versions out there, and never
>>> find
>>> out which one is correct for me, in front of Eclipse I'm really a
>>> newbie:)
>>>
>>> angelo
>>>
>>>
>>> Christian Edward Gruber-2 wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree - I bounce back and forth as well, quite commonly.  I'm
>>>> encouraged by Eclipse 3.5 for reasons you cite, but it's
>>>> frustrating.   Every-so-often I seriously consider just a text editor
>>>> and command-line, but things like re-factoring tools, etc, usually
>>>> bring me back.
>>>>
>>>> I'll tell you though, the one that gives me a NeXT-style
>>>> InterfaceBuilder work-alike for Swing or SWT will probably win for
>>>> me.  (And if someone let me build tapestry code that way... drag and
>>>> drop GUIs... I'd definitely pay for that privilege)
>>>>
>>>> Christian
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Howard wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  I seem to be caught between two IDEs: Eclipse and IntelliJ. I
>>>>> abandoned
>>>>> Eclipse a couple of years back, partly based on wide spread
>>>>> recommendations from many different people, and partly because Eclipse
>>>>> just stopped working for me (it crashed out).
>>>>> After I got started with IntelliJ I started to appreciate its merits,
>>>>> despite a generally clunky interface (with lots of modal windows),
>>>>> truly awful documentation. Many things are streamlined and only a
>>>>> ctrl-alt-shift-coke-bottle-touch-your-nose away.
>>>>> However, over time, using IntelliJ got slower and slower and slower.
>>>>> It
>>>>> also started running the Tapestry test suite horrifically slowly: 40
>>>>> minutes and up (it should be about five). It would often go away, even
>>>>> when memory wasn't tight. Indexing? Checking Repositories? Computing
>>>>> primes? No way to tell.
>>>>> Meanwhile, Eclipse has been moving forward, with Eclipse Galileo being
>>>>> a Cocoa (not a Carbon) application. Critical plugins such as M2Eclipse
>>>>> have gotten nice, and the Clojure plugin is mostly better than the
>>>>> IntelliJ one (though both are very early).
>>>>> For a while I was using IntelliJ when teaching Tapestry (as part of
>>>>> the
>>>>> VMWare image I use when training) ... and I got a lot of resistance.
>>>>> People were much happier with Eclipse on the last couple of go-rounds,
>>>>> and I'm sticking with it.
>>>>> Overall, I'm feeling that most of what I've grown used to in IntelliJ
>>>>> is present in Eclipse, just handled a bit differently. The Clojure
>>>>> plugins are a wash; IntelliJ has the edge on the Git plugin. I think
>>>>> Subversion inside Eclipse is actually better.
>>>>> I've even cranked up NetBeans but didn't find anything there
>>>>> compelling
>>>>> enough to switch.
>>>>> It seems like all my major tools (Firefox, Firebug, Eclipse, IntelliJ)
>>>>> are in the habit of growing too complex, and doing too much stuff in
>>>>> the background that I don't care about. All those intentions in
>>>>> IntelliJ that you have to turn off (for performance reasons), and all
>>>>> those extra plugins for Eclipse that you need to not download in the
>>>>> first place ... they're all getting in my way.
>>>>> I think a lot of this falls into the general category of accidental
>>>>> complexity ... to address the limitations of the Java programming
>>>>> language, all this extra stuff is coming into play: tools and wizards
>>>>> and plugins and indexes and whatnot. I find it pretty pleasant to work
>>>>> with Clojure instead, where the accidental complexity of Java is
>>>>> managed and isolated and the IDE doesn't feel the need to be overly
>>>>> ambitious. That's the Clojure concept right there ... grow the
>>>>> language
>>>>> to your needs, rather than building up tools. I think that's the
>>>>> Tapestry ethic as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 7/02/2009 01:10:00 PM
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Christian Edward Gruber
>>>> christianedwardgruber@...
>>>> http://www.geekinasuit.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>>
>>> http://www.nabble.com/-Tapestry-Central--Caught-between-Two-IDEs-tp24313658p24315185.html
>>> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

--
Howard M. Lewis Ship

Creator of Apache Tapestry
Director of Open Source Technology at Formos

[Ivan S. Dubrov]

Craig St. Jean wrote:
> I haven't had Eclipse (or products based on it) crash in a LONG time.  I do
> however have it lock up for a couple minutes at a time several times a day.
>  Incredibly frustrating when you have unsaved files.
>  
Concurrent collector may help remove those pauses. Something like
(eclipse.ini):

-XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC
-XX:+CMSIncrementalMode
-XX:+CMSIncrementalPacing
-XX:+CMSClassUnloadingEnabled

Though some plug-ins or Eclipse itself sometimes leak so you have to
restart it from time to time.

> I remember I was using Eclipse 3.2 a couple of years ago and I timed it as
> being locked up for literally 16 minutes, as I was trying to do a save
> all... (though now its almost always less than 3 minutes)
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Angelo Chen <angelochen960@...>wrote:
>
>  
>> I got two reasons not using Eclipse:
>>
>> 1) crashes, it just simply crashed even sitting there, probably it's
>> getting
>> better now.
>> 2) don't know what to download, so many versions out there, and never find
>> out which one is correct for me, in front of Eclipse I'm really a newbie:)
>>
>> angelo
>>
>>
>> Christian Edward Gruber-2 wrote:
>>    
>>> I agree - I bounce back and forth as well, quite commonly.  I'm
>>> encouraged by Eclipse 3.5 for reasons you cite, but it's
>>> frustrating.   Every-so-often I seriously consider just a text editor
>>> and command-line, but things like re-factoring tools, etc, usually
>>> bring me back.
>>>
>>> I'll tell you though, the one that gives me a NeXT-style
>>> InterfaceBuilder work-alike for Swing or SWT will probably win for
>>> me.  (And if someone let me build tapestry code that way... drag and
>>> drop GUIs... I'd definitely pay for that privilege)
>>>
>>> Christian
>>>
>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Howard wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>> I seem to be caught between two IDEs: Eclipse and IntelliJ. I
>>>> abandoned
>>>> Eclipse a couple of years back, partly based on wide spread
>>>> recommendations from many different people, and partly because Eclipse
>>>> just stopped working for me (it crashed out).
>>>> After I got started with IntelliJ I started to appreciate its merits,
>>>> despite a generally clunky interface (with lots of modal windows),
>>>> truly awful documentation. Many things are streamlined and only a
>>>> ctrl-alt-shift-coke-bottle-touch-your-nose away.
>>>> However, over time, using IntelliJ got slower and slower and slower.
>>>> It
>>>> also started running the Tapestry test suite horrifically slowly: 40
>>>> minutes and up (it should be about five). It would often go away, even
>>>> when memory wasn't tight. Indexing? Checking Repositories? Computing
>>>> primes? No way to tell.
>>>> Meanwhile, Eclipse has been moving forward, with Eclipse Galileo being
>>>> a Cocoa (not a Carbon) application. Critical plugins such as M2Eclipse
>>>> have gotten nice, and the Clojure plugin is mostly better than the
>>>> IntelliJ one (though both are very early).
>>>> For a while I was using IntelliJ when teaching Tapestry (as part of
>>>> the
>>>> VMWare image I use when training) ... and I got a lot of resistance.
>>>> People were much happier with Eclipse on the last couple of go-rounds,
>>>> and I'm sticking with it.
>>>> Overall, I'm feeling that most of what I've grown used to in IntelliJ
>>>> is present in Eclipse, just handled a bit differently. The Clojure
>>>> plugins are a wash; IntelliJ has the edge on the Git plugin. I think
>>>> Subversion inside Eclipse is actually better.
>>>> I've even cranked up NetBeans but didn't find anything there
>>>> compelling
>>>> enough to switch.
>>>> It seems like all my major tools (Firefox, Firebug, Eclipse, IntelliJ)
>>>> are in the habit of growing too complex, and doing too much stuff in
>>>> the background that I don't care about. All those intentions in
>>>> IntelliJ that you have to turn off (for performance reasons), and all
>>>> those extra plugins for Eclipse that you need to not download in the
>>>> first place ... they're all getting in my way.
>>>> I think a lot of this falls into the general category of accidental
>>>> complexity ... to address the limitations of the Java programming
>>>> language, all this extra stuff is coming into play: tools and wizards
>>>> and plugins and indexes and whatnot. I find it pretty pleasant to work
>>>> with Clojure instead, where the accidental complexity of Java is
>>>> managed and isolated and the IDE doesn't feel the need to be overly
>>>> ambitious. That's the Clojure concept right there ... grow the
>>>> language
>>>> to your needs, rather than building up tools. I think that's the
>>>> Tapestry ethic as well.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 7/02/2009 01:10:00 PM
>>>>        
>>> Christian Edward Gruber
>>> christianedwardgruber@...
>>> http://www.geekinasuit.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/-Tapestry-Central--Caught-between-Two-IDEs-tp24313658p24315185.html
>> Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>>
>>
>>    
>
>  

--
WBR,
Ivan S. Dubrov

[Ivano Luberti]

The 3.3 version was clearly bugged with a memory leak they have never
solved.
This is objective.
Now I use 3.4 and I'm an happy man: I don't know what I could ask more
from an IDE except for a useful Tapestry plugin ;-)


Angelo Chen ha scritto:

> I got two reasons not using Eclipse:
>
> 1) crashes, it just simply crashed even sitting there, probably it's getting
> better now.
> 2) don't know what to download, so many versions out there, and never find
> out which one is correct for me, in front of Eclipse I'm really a newbie:)
>
> angelo
>
>
> Christian Edward Gruber-2 wrote:
>  
>> I agree - I bounce back and forth as well, quite commonly.  I'm  
>> encouraged by Eclipse 3.5 for reasons you cite, but it's  
>> frustrating.   Every-so-often I seriously consider just a text editor  
>> and command-line, but things like re-factoring tools, etc, usually  
>> bring me back.
>>
>> I'll tell you though, the one that gives me a NeXT-style  
>> InterfaceBuilder work-alike for Swing or SWT will probably win for  
>> me.  (And if someone let me build tapestry code that way... drag and  
>> drop GUIs... I'd definitely pay for that privilege)
>>
>> Christian
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Howard wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> I seem to be caught between two IDEs: Eclipse and IntelliJ. I  
>>> abandoned
>>> Eclipse a couple of years back, partly based on wide spread
>>> recommendations from many different people, and partly because Eclipse
>>> just stopped working for me (it crashed out).
>>> After I got started with IntelliJ I started to appreciate its merits,
>>> despite a generally clunky interface (with lots of modal windows),
>>> truly awful documentation. Many things are streamlined and only a
>>> ctrl-alt-shift-coke-bottle-touch-your-nose away.
>>> However, over time, using IntelliJ got slower and slower and slower.  
>>> It
>>> also started running the Tapestry test suite horrifically slowly: 40
>>> minutes and up (it should be about five). It would often go away, even
>>> when memory wasn't tight. Indexing? Checking Repositories? Computing
>>> primes? No way to tell.
>>> Meanwhile, Eclipse has been moving forward, with Eclipse Galileo being
>>> a Cocoa (not a Carbon) application. Critical plugins such as M2Eclipse
>>> have gotten nice, and the Clojure plugin is mostly better than the
>>> IntelliJ one (though both are very early).
>>> For a while I was using IntelliJ when teaching Tapestry (as part of  
>>> the
>>> VMWare image I use when training) ... and I got a lot of resistance.
>>> People were much happier with Eclipse on the last couple of go-rounds,
>>> and I'm sticking with it.
>>> Overall, I'm feeling that most of what I've grown used to in IntelliJ
>>> is present in Eclipse, just handled a bit differently. The Clojure
>>> plugins are a wash; IntelliJ has the edge on the Git plugin. I think
>>> Subversion inside Eclipse is actually better.
>>> I've even cranked up NetBeans but didn't find anything there  
>>> compelling
>>> enough to switch.
>>> It seems like all my major tools (Firefox, Firebug, Eclipse, IntelliJ)
>>> are in the habit of growing too complex, and doing too much stuff in
>>> the background that I don't care about. All those intentions in
>>> IntelliJ that you have to turn off (for performance reasons), and all
>>> those extra plugins for Eclipse that you need to not download in the
>>> first place ... they're all getting in my way.
>>> I think a lot of this falls into the general category of accidental
>>> complexity ... to address the limitations of the Java programming
>>> language, all this extra stuff is coming into play: tools and wizards
>>> and plugins and indexes and whatnot. I find it pretty pleasant to work
>>> with Clojure instead, where the accidental complexity of Java is
>>> managed and isolated and the IDE doesn't feel the need to be overly
>>> ambitious. That's the Clojure concept right there ... grow the  
>>> language
>>> to your needs, rather than building up tools. I think that's the
>>> Tapestry ethic as well.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 7/02/2009 01:10:00 PM
>>>      
>> Christian Edward Gruber
>> christianedwardgruber@...
>> http://www.geekinasuit.com/
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>
>  

--
==================================================
dott. Ivano Mario Luberti
Archimede Informatica societa' cooperativa a r. l.
Sede Operativa
Via Gereschi 36 - 56126- Pisa
tel.: [phone]
tel/fax: [phone]
web: www.archicoop.it
==================================================


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[Ivano Luberti]

I'have really poor knowledge of javascript but have you evere tried Aptana ?
It seems huge but powerful.

Howard Lewis Ship ha scritto:
> Less is more with Eclipse.
> At least it has a reasonable XML editor built in now, and RunJettyRun gets
> the job done.  How much more do you need?  A better JavaScript and CSS
> editor would also be nice, the question is how much bloat do I have to drag
> in with those?
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Norman Franke <norman@...> wrote:
>  

--
==================================================
dott. Ivano Mario Luberti
Archimede Informatica societa' cooperativa a r. l.
Sede Operativa
Via Gereschi 36 - 56126- Pisa
tel.: [phone]
tel/fax: [phone]
web: www.archicoop.it
==================================================


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[Ulrich Stärk]

I'd already be happy with a Tapestry DTD file for use with Eclipse's XML Editor

On 03.07.2009 09:47 schrieb Ivano Luberti:

> The 3.3 version was clearly bugged with a memory leak they have never
> solved.
> This is objective.
> Now I use 3.4 and I'm an happy man: I don't know what I could ask more
> from an IDE except for a useful Tapestry plugin ;-)
>
>
> Angelo Chen ha scritto:
>> I got two reasons not using Eclipse:
>>
>> 1) crashes, it just simply crashed even sitting there, probably it's getting
>> better now.
>> 2) don't know what to download, so many versions out there, and never find
>> out which one is correct for me, in front of Eclipse I'm really a newbie:)
>>
>> angelo
>>
>>
>> Christian Edward Gruber-2 wrote:
>>  
>>> I agree - I bounce back and forth as well, quite commonly.  I'm  
>>> encouraged by Eclipse 3.5 for reasons you cite, but it's  
>>> frustrating.   Every-so-often I seriously consider just a text editor  
>>> and command-line, but things like re-factoring tools, etc, usually  
>>> bring me back.
>>>
>>> I'll tell you though, the one that gives me a NeXT-style  
>>> InterfaceBuilder work-alike for Swing or SWT will probably win for  
>>> me.  (And if someone let me build tapestry code that way... drag and  
>>> drop GUIs... I'd definitely pay for that privilege)
>>>
>>> Christian
>>>
>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Howard wrote:
>>>
>>>    
>>>> I seem to be caught between two IDEs: Eclipse and IntelliJ. I  
>>>> abandoned
>>>> Eclipse a couple of years back, partly based on wide spread
>>>> recommendations from many different people, and partly because Eclipse
>>>> just stopped working for me (it crashed out).
>>>> After I got started with IntelliJ I started to appreciate its merits,
>>>> despite a generally clunky interface (with lots of modal windows),
>>>> truly awful documentation. Many things are streamlined and only a
>>>> ctrl-alt-shift-coke-bottle-touch-your-nose away.
>>>> However, over time, using IntelliJ got slower and slower and slower.  
>>>> It
>>>> also started running the Tapestry test suite horrifically slowly: 40
>>>> minutes and up (it should be about five). It would often go away, even
>>>> when memory wasn't tight. Indexing? Checking Repositories? Computing
>>>> primes? No way to tell.
>>>> Meanwhile, Eclipse has been moving forward, with Eclipse Galileo being
>>>> a Cocoa (not a Carbon) application. Critical plugins such as M2Eclipse
>>>> have gotten nice, and the Clojure plugin is mostly better than the
>>>> IntelliJ one (though both are very early).
>>>> For a while I was using IntelliJ when teaching Tapestry (as part of  
>>>> the
>>>> VMWare image I use when training) ... and I got a lot of resistance.
>>>> People were much happier with Eclipse on the last couple of go-rounds,
>>>> and I'm sticking with it.
>>>> Overall, I'm feeling that most of what I've grown used to in IntelliJ
>>>> is present in Eclipse, just handled a bit differently. The Clojure
>>>> plugins are a wash; IntelliJ has the edge on the Git plugin. I think
>>>> Subversion inside Eclipse is actually better.
>>>> I've even cranked up NetBeans but didn't find anything there  
>>>> compelling
>>>> enough to switch.
>>>> It seems like all my major tools (Firefox, Firebug, Eclipse, IntelliJ)
>>>> are in the habit of growing too complex, and doing too much stuff in
>>>> the background that I don't care about. All those intentions in
>>>> IntelliJ that you have to turn off (for performance reasons), and all
>>>> those extra plugins for Eclipse that you need to not download in the
>>>> first place ... they're all getting in my way.
>>>> I think a lot of this falls into the general category of accidental
>>>> complexity ... to address the limitations of the Java programming
>>>> language, all this extra stuff is coming into play: tools and wizards
>>>> and plugins and indexes and whatnot. I find it pretty pleasant to work
>>>> with Clojure instead, where the accidental complexity of Java is
>>>> managed and isolated and the IDE doesn't feel the need to be overly
>>>> ambitious. That's the Clojure concept right there ... grow the  
>>>> language
>>>> to your needs, rather than building up tools. I think that's the
>>>> Tapestry ethic as well.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 7/02/2009 01:10:00 PM
>>>>      
>>> Christian Edward Gruber
>>> christianedwardgruber@...
>>> http://www.geekinasuit.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    
>>  
>

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[Michael Gentry-2]

C'mon, the Java world needs time to catch up!  Interface Builder has
only been around for 20 years.  It is still being used today (with a
few tweaks) to create OS X and iPhone applications.  I'm sure by 2010
the Java world will have a tool like this.  :-)

mrg


On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Christian
Gruber<christianedwardgruber@...> wrote:
> I'll tell you though, the one that gives me a NeXT-style InterfaceBuilder
> work-alike for Swing or SWT will probably win for me.  (And if someone let
> me build tapestry code that way... drag and drop GUIs... I'd definitely pay
> for that privilege)

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[Christian Edward Gruber-2]

It's what pisses me off - Java had all the opportunity to learn from  
the great advances and successes in the '90s and totally failed (as a  
community and industry segment).  We ended up re-learning all the same  
stupid mistakes.

Anyway, I do use IB for MacOS apps (and I'm irritated enough that I'm  
actually working on an IB-esque thing I'm calling Markup (framework)  
and MarkupBuilder (tool), but it's totally in my spare time, and if  
someone scoops me I'll give it up.  Anyway, this is now, officially,  
OT for the Tapestry list.

Christian.

On Jul 4, 2009, at 8:16 AM, Michael Gentry wrote:

> C'mon, the Java world needs time to catch up!  Interface Builder has
> only been around for 20 years.  It is still being used today (with a
> few tweaks) to create OS X and iPhone applications.  I'm sure by 2010
> the Java world will have a tool like this.  :-)
>
> mrg
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Christian
> Gruber<christianedwardgruber@...> wrote:
>> I'll tell you though, the one that gives me a NeXT-style  
>> InterfaceBuilder
>> work-alike for Swing or SWT will probably win for me.  (And if  
>> someone let
>> me build tapestry code that way... drag and drop GUIs... I'd  
>> definitely pay
>> for that privilege)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>

Christian Edward Gruber
christianedwardgruber@...
http://www.geekinasuit.com/


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[Joachim Van der Auwera (PROGS bvba)]

For IntelliJ IDEA, have you looked at the KnownIssues file? It contains
some possible causes of slowness which mey be worth looking at.

Kind regards,
Joachim

Howard wrote:

> I seem to be caught between two IDEs: Eclipse and IntelliJ. I abandoned
> Eclipse a couple of years back, partly based on wide spread
> recommendations from many different people, and partly because Eclipse
> just stopped working for me (it crashed out).
> After I got started with IntelliJ I started to appreciate its merits,
> despite a generally clunky interface (with lots of modal windows),
> truly awful documentation. Many things are streamlined and only a
> ctrl-alt-shift-coke-bottle-touch-your-nose away.
> However, over time, using IntelliJ got slower and slower and slower. It
> also started running the Tapestry test suite horrifically slowly: 40
> minutes and up (it should be about five). It would often go away, even
> when memory wasn't tight. Indexing? Checking Repositories? Computing
> primes? No way to tell.
> Meanwhile, Eclipse has been moving forward, with Eclipse Galileo being
> a Cocoa (not a Carbon) application. Critical plugins such as M2Eclipse
> have gotten nice, and the Clojure plugin is mostly better than the
> IntelliJ one (though both are very early).
> For a while I was using IntelliJ when teaching Tapestry (as part of the
> VMWare image I use when training) ... and I got a lot of resistance.
> People were much happier with Eclipse on the last couple of go-rounds,
> and I'm sticking with it.
> Overall, I'm feeling that most of what I've grown used to in IntelliJ
> is present in Eclipse, just handled a bit differently. The Clojure
> plugins are a wash; IntelliJ has the edge on the Git plugin. I think
> Subversion inside Eclipse is actually better.
> I've even cranked up NetBeans but didn't find anything there compelling
> enough to switch.
> It seems like all my major tools (Firefox, Firebug, Eclipse, IntelliJ)
> are in the habit of growing too complex, and doing too much stuff in
> the background that I don't care about. All those intentions in
> IntelliJ that you have to turn off (for performance reasons), and all
> those extra plugins for Eclipse that you need to not download in the
> first place ... they're all getting in my way.
> I think a lot of this falls into the general category of accidental
> complexity ... to address the limitations of the Java programming
> language, all this extra stuff is coming into play: tools and wizards
> and plugins and indexes and whatnot. I find it pretty pleasant to work
> with Clojure instead, where the accidental complexity of Java is
> managed and isolated and the IDE doesn't feel the need to be overly
> ambitious. That's the Clojure concept right there ... grow the language
> to your needs, rather than building up tools. I think that's the
> Tapestry ethic as well.
>
> --
> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 7/02/2009 01:10:00 PM
>  

--
Joachim Van der Auwera
PROGS bvba, progs.be


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[Marcus Veloso]

Hi Howard,

I agree with you, I think Java is an excellent "all-around-language", but
some times we have to deal with many tools.

Eclipse can be easily configured to support Tapestry 5.x. Just download *
Eclipse-SDK* (Ganimede or Galileo) and let the *Maven Integration plugin* do
the rest. (http://tapestry5.wikidot.com/ambiente)

Best regards,

Marcus Veloso