[Tapestry Central] Next Steps for Tapestry

[Howard Lewis Ship]

I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
intended.
This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
time.
As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
services out into the public APIs.
Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
up on.
So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
effort quite nicely.

--
Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM

[josete]

Book ! Book ! Book !

El 07/11/2009, a las 19:11, Howard escribió:

> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
> intended.
> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving  
> and
> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
> time.
> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
> services out into the public APIs.
> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a  
> bit
> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
> up on.
> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
> effort quite nicely.
>
> --
> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM

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[Carl Crowder]

Agreed: the main thing Tapestry is lacking is a book that explains not
just the basics but also concepts that it takes months of working with
Tapestry to discover. Things like shadow builders and so on. I don't
care who writes one as long as there's a definitive guide!

jose luis sanchez wrote:

> Book ! Book ! Book !
>
> El 07/11/2009, a las 19:11, Howard escribió:
>
>> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
>> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
>> intended.
>> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
>> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
>> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
>> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
>> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
>> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
>> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
>> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
>> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
>> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
>> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
>> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
>> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
>> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
>> time.
>> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
>> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
>> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
>> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
>> services out into the public APIs.
>> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
>> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
>> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
>> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
>> up on.
>> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
>> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
>> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
>> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
>> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
>> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
>> effort quite nicely.
>>
>> --
>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM
>
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[Ulrich Stärk]

There already is one - written by Igor - but unfortunately not (yet?)
available in English.

Uli

Carl Crowder schrieb:

> Agreed: the main thing Tapestry is lacking is a book that explains not
> just the basics but also concepts that it takes months of working with
> Tapestry to discover. Things like shadow builders and so on. I don't
> care who writes one as long as there's a definitive guide!
>
> jose luis sanchez wrote:
>> Book ! Book ! Book !
>>
>> El 07/11/2009, a las 19:11, Howard escribió:
>>
>>> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
>>> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
>>> intended.
>>> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
>>> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
>>> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
>>> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
>>> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
>>> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
>>> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
>>> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
>>> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
>>> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
>>> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
>>> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
>>> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
>>> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
>>> time.
>>> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
>>> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
>>> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
>>> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
>>> services out into the public APIs.
>>> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
>>> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
>>> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
>>> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
>>> up on.
>>> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
>>> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
>>> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
>>> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
>>> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
>>> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
>>> effort quite nicely.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM
>>
>>
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[Antonio Fernández]

+1 "Bible" Book :-)

Antonio

Carl Crowder escribió:

> Agreed: the main thing Tapestry is lacking is a book that explains not
> just the basics but also concepts that it takes months of working with
> Tapestry to discover. Things like shadow builders and so on. I don't
> care who writes one as long as there's a definitive guide!
>
> jose luis sanchez wrote:
>> Book ! Book ! Book !
>>
>> El 07/11/2009, a las 19:11, Howard escribió:
>>
>>> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
>>> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
>>> intended.
>>> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
>>> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
>>> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
>>> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
>>> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
>>> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
>>> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
>>> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
>>> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
>>> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
>>> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
>>> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
>>> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
>>> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
>>> time.
>>> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
>>> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
>>> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
>>> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
>>> services out into the public APIs.
>>> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
>>> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
>>> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
>>> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
>>> up on.
>>> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
>>> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
>>> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
>>> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
>>> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
>>> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
>>> effort quite nicely.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM
>>
>>
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[Piero Sartini-3]

> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
> books to others?

+1 for coding, as there already is a very good book available (written by
Igor). Why do it twice - what's lacking is just an english translation.

        Piero


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[cuartz]

I think both are necessary to make tapestry more popular, but i think would be better if you work on code, tapestry is already known by a lot of people, i’m a 24 years old Mexican and in my 3 years of experience i already have been part of 2 tapestry 5 big projects, the first last 10 months and i’m working on the second project 3 months ago, and today when there is a discussion of which framework to use at the start of a project, tapestry 5 is consider, so now there is a matter of which framework is better, i know this from myself and from the developers i know.
Also the book can be written by other people but you are the only one who can work in the code.
i think that any improvement you maid (faster requests or richer web apps) is going to be great and i can’t wait to see it.
cheers and sorry for my bad english.

[Michael Gerzabek]

Carl Crowder schrieb:
> Agreed: the main thing Tapestry is lacking is a book that explains not
> just the basics but also concepts that it takes months of working with
> Tapestry to discover. Things like shadow builders and so on. I don't
> care who writes one as long as there's a definitive guide!
+1

Michael Gerzabek

>
> jose luis sanchez wrote:
>> Book ! Book ! Book !
>>
>> El 07/11/2009, a las 19:11, Howard escribió:
>>
>>> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
>>> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
>>> intended.
>>> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
>>> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
>>> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
>>> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
>>> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
>>> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
>>> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
>>> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
>>> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
>>> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
>>> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
>>> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
>>> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
>>> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
>>> time.
>>> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
>>> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
>>> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
>>> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
>>> services out into the public APIs.
>>> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
>>> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
>>> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
>>> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
>>> up on.
>>> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
>>> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
>>> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
>>> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
>>> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
>>> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
>>> effort quite nicely.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
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[Ivano Luberti]

Howard, why don't collaborate with Igor to have the book in Engllish?
Instead of starting a new project for it you can try to have Igor book
as a starting point or even better a final point and only have to
translate a commonly reviewed version and publish it together .

I understand you want to have T5 up to date against the competition but
really the book is mandatory if you want to have people to use it
consciously and having it only in German means to exclude the great
majority of the web developers.

If you go ahead with it I could help in reviewing it and I also suggest
you try to use some list members as an help, like it was made for the
web site.





cuartz ha scritto:

> I think both are necessary to make tapestry more popular, but i think would
> be better if you work on code, tapestry is already known by a lot of people,
> i’m a 24 years old Mexican and in my 3 years of experience i already have
> been part of 2 tapestry 5 big projects, the first last 10 months and i’m
> working on the second project 3 months ago, and today when there is a
> discussion of which framework to use at the start of a project, tapestry 5
> is consider, so now there is a matter of which framework is better, i know
> this from myself and from the developers i know.
> Also the book can be written by other people but you are the only one who
> can work in the code.
> i think that any improvement you maid (faster requests or richer web apps)
> is going to be great and i can’t wait to see it.
> cheers and sorry for my bad english.
>
>
> -----
> Carlos Araham U. Bayona Smythe.
>  

--
==================================================
dott. Ivano Mario Luberti
Archimede Informatica societa' cooperativa a r. l.
Sede Operativa
Via Gereschi 36 - 56126- Pisa
tel.: [phone]
tel/fax: [phone]
web: www.archicoop.it
==================================================


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[Vjeran Marcinko-2]

I understand that book would be valuable addition to Tapestry, but I would
also prefer you to spend your time doing the coding, and if I may add, not
so much on new features (like Spring Web Flow), but more on improving
already present ideas since there are many places for improvement. One thing
that comes to my mind is - various ways of passing parameters between pages
(for example for search form criteria etc..), Javascript support that you
mentioned, etc... These things are pretty much needed in every web app out
there.

I just converted my first T4 app to T5, and although it was generaly better
experience, I have found few places where things became harder that it was
before, for eg  - no properly working submit button context, no easy option
to turn of sorting in grids, and similar bits and pieces...

Regards,
Vjeran

----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard" <hlship@...>
To: <users@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 7:11 PM
Subject: [Tapestry Central] Next Steps for Tapestry

> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
> intended.
> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
> time.
> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
> services out into the public APIs.
> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
> up on.
> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
> effort quite nicely.
>
> --
> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM

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[Tom Pfotzer]

Howard:

I agree with the posters that say "refine your code-base" as priority one, and I agree that writing the book is a very close priority two. So the question isn't really which should you do, as both are crucial to Tapestry the product and it's community of users.

The problem is how best to leverage your knowledge. You must delegate and direct, or you become Tapestry's main growth bottleneck. You already know this, of course, so the question is "how do I leverage me"?

Number one: find a book author that knows almost as much as you do. Maybe Igor's that person, since he both knows the product (I guess; haven't read his book) and has written a book. The question then is incentives. Writing a book is tough, and Tapestry's market is narrower (but not for long!) than other possible uses of book-writers' time. What can you do to make it economically worthwhile for that book-writer, or an existing book-writer's publisher, to write another? My next phone call would be to Igor's publisher, and say "Hey, you guys just wrote a book for the German market. You already sunk all those costs, now why not make a lot more revenue from your investment? How would you like to do a good translation, and sell into the vastly larger English market (~80Mil audience .vs. 500Mil)?" Tapestry is used in Europe, U.S., English-speaking Asia, Australia, U.K, etc

Find out if that publisher's ready to expand into U.S. - that may be on their mind. Also, see about electronic publishing instead of hard-bound. I bought an e-book on Tapestry a while back, and it was pretty helpful. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. That'll reduce the publisher's risk a LOT. Also, there's a good UK publisher that does e-books already, and does it well. I bought a Lucene book that way not long ago, and would use them again in a heartbeat. Think "reduced publisher risk", and "I.T. users are ideal e-book buyers".

Next: Think about the steps that the SpringSource people went through as they spun up their business. They added a consulting arm, and that generated enough revenue to do documentation - hiring a full-timer to do it right, did a really strong online reference, etc.

Consulting is an excellent revenue-producer. Can you replicate you in that capacity also? Would you want to? How do you see "growth" and "managing" stuff? Some people (very logically) run screaming from the room if the subject's brought up ;)

Another idea: ask your contributors here at the forum to consider writing documentation modules. Consider an annual subscription fee of $20-50 to be a member of a support system that has a bunch of contributed modules. Pro-rata distribute the subscription fee to the modules-writers based on hits. There are a number of people here that are capable, and if you provided the incentive...they might do it. If you can provide the money-channel and the set of next-most-needed topics, I bet you might find some takers.

The problem is centrally a one of incentives for the right people to step up and do the work. Why would someone want to write documentation? Credit, money, resume-stuffer, book-deal...what? OK, now find a way to get them what they want in order to remove info-flow bottlenecks that are impeding Tapestry's growth.

You may also consider moving away from the book format altogether and concentrate your writing onto your website. Make it a knowledge vending machine. Ask your forum of smart people this question:

"If I was to design a self-sustaining, revenue-producing mechanism that produced great on-line doc for Tapestry, leveraged all you brilliant people, and made it worth your while to do it, what would that design be like?"

I think the key is to leverage existing Tapestry knowledge, especially yours. How can that knowledge be replicated, extended, sub-classed...? How can the knowledge of your many very talented forum posters be captured, replicated, distributed...?

Good luck. We all wish for your continued success. I'll be in your neck of the woods 2nd week of Dec if you want to meet for a cuppa joe and discuss it further.

[Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo]

Couldn't it be a hybrid approach? One day or week coding Tapestry, then
the next writing the book?

By the way, I'd love write a Tapestry book. One company here at Belo
Horizonte, Brazil has just contracted me to have both introductory and
advanced Tapestry courses. My plans are to write the textbooks with the
target of being transformed in a book later, first in Portuguese, then
translated to English. The more Tapestry books, the better.

--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,  
and instructor
Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da  
Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br

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[Igor Drobiazko]

Well, I think you should do what you feel is best for you right now. If you
need a timeout from coding then write a book. If you feel a book will take
too much of your time then code again. I'm still hoping my publisher will
translate my book. So maybe there will be an english book even if you decide
not to write one. I asked the published several times but didn't get any
feedback yet. I suppose they are not ready to make a decision right now.

However, if you need some co-authors I'm ready. Not sure I'm allowed to but
I can check it. I remember some clause in my contract about writing
competing books.

Don't get me wrong but a 5.2.0.0 release without any single commit of Howard
would be something awful. :)
It would be a historical event and the final prove that Tapestry is no
longer a one men show. We have 29 fixed issues in current 5.2 trunk. The
both most popular issues will be fixed in the next days. I'm on the verge of
committing fix for  http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TAP5-138 . Robert
was going to provide a fix for
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TAP5-815 this weekend. JSR 303 support
is almost there.

On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Howard <hlship@...> wrote:

> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
> intended.
> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
> time.
> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
> services out into the public APIs.
> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
> up on.
> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
> effort quite nicely.
>
> --
> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM

--
Best regards,

Igor Drobiazko

[akochnev]

Igor : just an idea on the translation front. I know that the NetBeans
community already did two "community translated" books from German, so it
might be interesting if the same model is possible in the Tapestry
community. I think it was mostly a volunteer effort but it got two NetBeans
RCP books translated in no time. In other words, if there are half a dozen
to a dozen people in the community who know both German and English and are
willing to translate a chapter or two, then the publisher only needs an
editor to verify that the translation is good - much less effort on their
part, much faster to get the books selling in English speaking countries,
much faster way to get the books into the community.

On my part, although I can't offer any skills in doing the actual
translation, I can offer some of my time to proof read chapters that are
already translated. Luckily, code (usually) doesn't need much translating.

Cheers,

Alex K

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Igor Drobiazko <igor.drobiazko@...>wrote:

> Well, I think you should do what you feel is best for you right now. If you
> need a timeout from coding then write a book. If you feel a book will take
> too much of your time then code again. I'm still hoping my publisher will
> translate my book. So maybe there will be an english book even if you
> decide
> not to write one. I asked the published several times but didn't get any
> feedback yet. I suppose they are not ready to make a decision right now.
>
> However, if you need some co-authors I'm ready. Not sure I'm allowed to but
> I can check it. I remember some clause in my contract about writing
> competing books.
>
> Don't get me wrong but a 5.2.0.0 release without any single commit of
> Howard
> would be something awful. :)
> It would be a historical event and the final prove that Tapestry is no
> longer a one men show. We have 29 fixed issues in current 5.2 trunk. The
> both most popular issues will be fixed in the next days. I'm on the verge
> of
> committing fix for  http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TAP5-138 . Robert
> was going to provide a fix for
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TAP5-815 this weekend. JSR 303
> support
> is almost there.
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Howard <hlship@...> wrote:
>
> > I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
> > while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
> > intended.
> > This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
> > consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
> > preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
> > All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
> > extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
> > time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
> > road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
> > I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
> > I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
> > Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
> > In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
> > regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
> > all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
> > engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
> > time.
> > As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
> > edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
> > the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
> > smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
> > services out into the public APIs.
> > Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
> > temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
> > developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
> > of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
> > up on.
> > So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
> > actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
> > books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
> > book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
> > hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
> > there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
> > effort quite nicely.
> >
> > --
> > Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM
>
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Igor Drobiazko
>

[Igor Drobiazko]

Hi Alex,

I'll ask the publisher again and suggest your idea.

08.11.2009, в 17:41, Alex Kotchnev <akochnev@...> написал(а):

> Igor : just an idea on the translation front. I know that the NetBeans
> community already did two "community translated" books from German,  
> so it
> might be interesting if the same model is possible in the Tapestry
> community. I think it was mostly a volunteer effort but it got two  
> NetBeans
> RCP books translated in no time. In other words, if there are half a  
> dozen
> to a dozen people in the community who know both German and English  
> and are
> willing to translate a chapter or two, then the publisher only needs  
> an
> editor to verify that the translation is good - much less effort on  
> their
> part, much faster to get the books selling in English speaking  
> countries,
> much faster way to get the books into the community.
>
> On my part, although I can't offer any skills in doing the actual
> translation, I can offer some of my time to proof read chapters that  
> are
> already translated. Luckily, code (usually) doesn't need much  
> translating.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alex K
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Igor Drobiazko <igor.drobiazko@...
> >wrote:
>
>> Well, I think you should do what you feel is best for you right  
>> now. If you
>> need a timeout from coding then write a book. If you feel a book  
>> will take
>> too much of your time then code again. I'm still hoping my  
>> publisher will
>> translate my book. So maybe there will be an english book even if you
>> decide
>> not to write one. I asked the published several times but didn't  
>> get any
>> feedback yet. I suppose they are not ready to make a decision right  
>> now.
>>
>> However, if you need some co-authors I'm ready. Not sure I'm  
>> allowed to but
>> I can check it. I remember some clause in my contract about writing
>> competing books.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong but a 5.2.0.0 release without any single commit of
>> Howard
>> would be something awful. :)
>> It would be a historical event and the final prove that Tapestry is  
>> no
>> longer a one men show. We have 29 fixed issues in current 5.2  
>> trunk. The
>> both most popular issues will be fixed in the next days. I'm on the  
>> verge
>> of
>> committing fix for  http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TAP5-138 .  
>> Robert
>> was going to provide a fix for
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TAP5-815 this weekend. JSR 303
>> support
>> is almost there.
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:11 PM, Howard <hlship@...> wrote:
>>
>>> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
>>> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I  
>>> initially
>>> intended.
>>> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
>>> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
>>> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
>>> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been  
>>> improving and
>>> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
>>> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
>>> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry  
>>> training.
>>> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2  
>>> code,
>>> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring  
>>> Web
>>> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
>>> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients,  
>>> one
>>> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
>>> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
>>> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
>>> time.
>>> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the  
>>> "rough
>>> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those  
>>> in
>>> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
>>> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
>>> services out into the public APIs.
>>> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped  
>>> back
>>> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
>>> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite  
>>> a bit
>>> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to  
>>> keep
>>> up on.
>>> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
>>> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and  
>>> leave
>>> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to  
>>> write a
>>> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
>>> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an  
>>> evening
>>> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
>>> effort quite nicely.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Igor Drobiazko
>>

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[Kalle Korhonen-2]

Howard, you touch too many points to make a very concise reply, but I
agree with many others encouraging you to continue coding 5.2 before
you start writing a book. By now, you probably have a fairly good idea
how you could improve things and I'd hate to have the first book on
Tapestry5 to already become outdated right away if you start on T5.2
only after releasing the book. Yes, there are a few active committers
but the community still needs your direction and you have a superior
ability to generalize concepts and turn them into brilliant
implementations. I'm not sure the committers would be able to lay out
a release plan without you either - bug fixes and some pet
improvements yes, but coming up and deciding features for a new major
release is a different ballgame. Of course, it's always easy for
people like me who are sitting on the sidelines to tell what you
should and shouldn't do.

On the matter of new features, I'm more and more convinced that web
conversations can be simplified a lot if they stay on the same "page"
- as proven by my Tapestry-conversations module
(http://docs.codehaus.org/display/TRAILS/Conversations+in+Trails). As
good as Spring Web Flow is, it's cumbersome and unnecessarily heavy
for modern ajaxified web. A built-in conversational scope with a
better mechanism for dealing with different page context entry points
(I'm likely not the only one with long if-elses in my onActivate
methods) might be enough for 90% of the use cases.

Still, a book is badly needed. The inconvenient truth is there are
very very few users of Tapestry anymore, the popularity of Tapestry is
declining and new Java developers are not finding the framework (as
proven by http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=tapestry%20java%2C%20wicket%20java%2Cgrails%20java&cmpt=q
- by know T5 release should have made a bump in those graphs). And
don't get me wrong - I've never believed that popularity would make
anything better, but without a wide enough user base it's difficult to
make a living out of it even if you want to and a healthy user base is
needed for a project to alive and active. I'm sure you've gone out of
your way to evangelize Tapestry but I'm amazed by (and I bet you've
been equally amazed, even envious at times) how some other frameworks
such as RoR and Grails have been able to market themselves so well.
It's baffling as we all know that purely from technological
standpoint, T5 is easily on par with the rest out there and often
surpassing the competition on specific areas. Clearly, but sadly,
eye-candy and looks over substance plays a big part here even among
engineers and I'm sure Tapestry could do more there. Documentation is
an issue with new-comers and a book would help. The reference
documentation is great but what missing is the longer, more
descriptive tutorials on how to get started and a book would at least
partially address those needs. It's not really just Tapestry's fault,
just that modern Java is complex and there are various tools like
Maven and other frameworks that you need to know about compared to
lighter, but easier all-in-one frameworks. But when it comes down to
choosing between coding and writing (a book), I think most would agree
that your time is better spent improving the core framework and
pushing the envelope further, while letting somebody else fill the gap
for the book. If you start feeling like it's getting harder to find
new things that might be worthwhile to add to the framework, at that
point it may be the right time for you to write a book. Hopefully that
time is not yet.

Just my 2 cents,
Kalle



On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Howard <hlship@...> wrote:

> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
> intended.
> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
> time.
> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
> services out into the public APIs.
> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
> up on.
> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
> effort quite nicely.
>
> --
> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM

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[Newham, Cameron]

You need to write the book IMO.

We've seen several attempts to start a book* on here but it hasn't
happened and probably won't.

Others will contribute to the current code. 5.2 can wait, I'm sure.


* an English Tapestry 5 book, that is.

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard [mailto:hlship@...]
Sent: 07 November 2009 18:11
To: users@...
Subject: [Tapestry Central] Next Steps for Tapestry

I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
intended.
This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
time.
As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
services out into the public APIs.
Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
up on.
So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
effort quite nicely.

--
Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM

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[Inge Solvoll-2]

Book. Web site. Marketing. Strategy.

Just to make a statement here: THE TAPESTRY 5 CODE IS MORE THAN GOOD
ENOUGH!! The quality of the code and the framework just isn't the
bottleneck. I think we all can agree on that?

Who cares about Spring Web Flow or portlet support? Do we really think that
such features would generate exponential amounts of traffic to the T5
website? Because that's what we need. Exponential growth in the user base.
My fear is that T5 will simply die within a couple of years if we don't get
massive growth and popularity. So what can we do to achieve that? Exposing
internal services as public sounds like a great idea to me, but it sure
won't help much for the exponential growth.

I think the best way for Howard to spend his time would be to find more
people to delegate work to, and spend some quality time with those people.
And after that, focus on marketing and documentation.

Hope I didn't offend anyone with this rather brutal post. I want only the
best for this excellent framework and its very talented founder :)


On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:59 AM, Newham, Cameron <cameron.newham@...>wrote:

> You need to write the book IMO.
>
> We've seen several attempts to start a book* on here but it hasn't
> happened and probably won't.
>
> Others will contribute to the current code. 5.2 can wait, I'm sure.
>
>
> * an English Tapestry 5 book, that is.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard [mailto:hlship@...]
> Sent: 07 November 2009 18:11
> To: users@...
> Subject: [Tapestry Central] Next Steps for Tapestry
>
> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
> intended.
> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
> time.
> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
> services out into the public APIs.
> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
> up on.
> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
> effort quite nicely.
>
> --
> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM
>
> **************************************************************************
>
> Experience the British Library online at http://www.bl.uk/
>
> The British Library’s new interactive Annual Report and Accounts 2008/09 :
> http://www.bl.uk/knowledge
>
> Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book.
> http://www.bl.uk/adoptabook
>
> The Library's St Pancras site is WiFi - enabled
>
> *************************************************************************
>
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the
> intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the mailto:
> postmaster@... : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or
> copied without the sender's consent.
>
> The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the
> author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The
> British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the
> author.
>
> *************************************************************************
>
>
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>
>

[Andy Blower]

I think you should write the book, but only if there's going to be a T5.1.1.x set of releases with bugfixes - this is long overdue in my opinion. (we have too many 'temporary' tapestry fixes - it's annoying & embarrassing) I don't think there's any pressing need for T5.2 yet (IMHO) but there are a lot of bugs in JIRA and some of them are quite serious. You have a few good committers and a community who often submit patches when they enter bugs. What's missing is getting some momentum and getting the results out there in official releases!

Doing this would allow you to carry on your consulting, write the book (very important, although just having an English language version of Igor's might be enough, especially if you rounded out any areas you felt needed expanding - maybe a joint effort?) and spend a little time here & there on any bugfixes you feel need your personal attention. (if there are any)

Whether or not you're involved in the releases is up to you, but at the moment nothing's happening which is not good.

Cheers,

Andy Blower.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Howard [mailto:hlship@...]
> Sent: 07 November 2009 18:11
> To: users@...
> Subject: [Tapestry Central] Next Steps for Tapestry
>
> I've been consciously letting Tapestry 5.1 sit and stabilize for a
> while ... a time that's stretched a few months longer than I initially
> intended.
> This is due to a number of factors: my return to independent
> consulting, my desire to write a definitive Tapestry 5 book, and
> preparations for many trips and speaking engagements.
> All of these factors have worked on each other: I've been improving and
> extending my Tapestry Workshop training materials which can be quite
> time consuming. I've also (over the last several months) been on the
> road several times, talking about Tapestry or doing Tapestry training.
> I do want to write a book on Tapestry but if I start writing 5.2 code,
> I know I'll be sucked right in ... lots of code (that darn Spring Web
> Flow integration for sure this time) and bug fixes.
> In addition, I've had an embarassment of riches: two main clients, one
> regular part time, and the other requesting (but not always getting)
> all my remaining time. I also have additional clients and training
> engagements waiting in the wings. I simply have a lot of draws on my
> time.
> As usual, working on real-world projects lets me experience the "rough
> edges" of Tapestry and fills me with ideas on how to address those in
> the next release ... often by splitting up Tapestry services into
> smaller, more easily overridden chunks and carefully moving internal
> services out into the public APIs.
> Finally, I've been very pleased by the fact that as I've stepped back
> temporarily from my normal stream of commits, the other Tapestry
> developers have stepped in and filled the gap. There's been quite a bit
> of activity especially from Igor that I've barely had a chance to keep
> up on.
> So the question is: do I wait and see if time opens up in Q1 to
> actually start on a T5 book ... or do I jump into 5.2 coding and leave
> books to others? It's much, much easier to write code than to write a
> book ... a book is a large amount of concentrated effort. It's very
> hard to accomplish anything on a book using an hour here or an evening
> there ... whereas Tapestry's code base lends itself to that kind of
> effort quite nicely.
>
> --
> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 11/07/2009 10:11:00 AM

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[Vjeran Marcinko-2]

> I think you should write the book, but only if there's going to be a
> T5.1.1.x set of releases with bugfixes - this is long overdue in my
> opinion. (we have too many 'temporary' tapestry fixes - > it's annoying &
> embarrassing) I don't think there's any pressing need for T5.2 yet (IMHO)
> but there are a lot of bugs in JIRA and some of them are quite serious.

Spot on. There are definetly many areas that need to be polished in 5.1.x,
and JIRA is flooded with issues, quie of few of them with patches pending.

BR,
Vjeran


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