[VOTE] Moving to SF.net?

[Flashrider]

Hi all,

I've been thinking of going away from GNOME for a long time now.

Since we already host your tarballs on SF.net why not using it for all?
(all = GIT, BugTracker, ML, blah, but not HP), so (almost) everything
from one source. Additionally, I can add accounts and stuff on my own,
no need for waiting for the GNOME guys and such.

I would like to move by the middle of October.

What do you think?

Chris

[Daniel Fetchinson]

> I've been thinking of going away from GNOME for a long time now.
>
> Since we already host your tarballs on SF.net why not using it for all?
> (all = GIT, BugTracker, ML, blah, but not HP), so (almost) everything
> from one source. Additionally, I can add accounts and stuff on my own,
> no need for waiting for the GNOME guys and such.
>
> I would like to move by the middle of October.
>
> What do you think?

I think almost anything will be better than sourceforge :)

Github, gitorious, code.google are all superior in my opinion (the
potential problem with code.google might be that with them git always
goes through svn but maybe that's not a big problem actually).

Cheers,
Daniel


--
Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown

[Jose A. Ortega Ruiz-2]

[I've never contributed to Sawfish, so i guess you shouldn't pay much
attention to my opinions below. I thought of chiming in nevertheless
because i regularly follow its development and i use its repository.]


Daniel Fetchinson <fetchinson@...> writes:

[...]

> I think almost anything will be better than sourceforge :)

FWIW, i wholeheartedly agree. IMHO, sf's interface is just awful.

> Github, gitorious, code.google are all superior in my opinion (the
> potential problem with code.google might be that with them git always
> goes through svn but maybe that's not a big problem actually).

One very nice thing about Github and Gitorious is that they allow very
easy repository cloning, encouraging contributions. Although i favour
Gitorious because it's open source, if a bug tracker is needed one would
have to go for Github (which is pretty good too, IMO).

Cheers,
jao
--
I always pass on good advice. It's the only thing to do with it. It is
never any use to oneself.
 -Oscar Wilde

[Flashrider]

Am Sonntag, den 27.09.2009, 01:32 +0200 schrieb Jose A. Ortega Ruiz:

> [I've never contributed to Sawfish, so i guess you shouldn't pay much
> attention to my opinions below. I thought of chiming in nevertheless
> because i regularly follow its development and i use its repository.]
>
>
> Daniel Fetchinson <fetchinson@...> writes:
>
> [...]
>
> > I think almost anything will be better than sourceforge :)
>
> FWIW, i wholeheartedly agree. IMHO, sf's interface is just awful.
>
> > Github, gitorious, code.google are all superior in my opinion (the
> > potential problem with code.google might be that with them git always
> > goes through svn but maybe that's not a big problem actually).
>
> One very nice thing about Github and Gitorious is that they allow very
> easy repository cloning, encouraging contributions. Although i favour
> Gitorious because it's open source, if a bug tracker is needed one would
> have to go for Github (which is pretty good too, IMO).
>
> Cheers,
> jao

Actually we need a GIT, BugTracker, DL-Section and a ML atleast, I
haven't checked wether github or gitorious provide *all* 4. Either way
tuxfamily.org might be an alternative, too.

It features:

- CVS, SVN, GIT (can choose one)
- Webarea (we only would need it for a bugtracker or a forum or x)
- Mail domains
- Mailing list
- MySQL, PostGreSQL DB (so we can install a bugtracker)
- Download Repos
- Domain names
- Jabber (? is on the list of supported, but I can't see it)
- Support Forum where WE can ask the admins

Well they use their selfmade VHFFS (www.vhffs.org) (GPL'ed) for all
stuff, so it also fits the little Richie in us :) additionally they say
that more will be comming, due to active contributors.

I really like those frenchies, I for a long time believed their
"Iceland-April-Fool" haha ^_^;

Chris

[Wang Lei-13]

Not contribute to sawfish yet, but have been following a long time. I
don't like sf.net, because it's slow to me.

Hope to do some coding work in sawfish soon ;)

On 9/27/09, Christopher Roy Bratusek <zanghar@...> wrote:

> Am Sonntag, den 27.09.2009, 01:32 +0200 schrieb Jose A. Ortega Ruiz:
>> [I've never contributed to Sawfish, so i guess you shouldn't pay much
>> attention to my opinions below. I thought of chiming in nevertheless
>> because i regularly follow its development and i use its repository.]
>>
>>
>> Daniel Fetchinson <fetchinson@...> writes:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > I think almost anything will be better than sourceforge :)
>>
>> FWIW, i wholeheartedly agree. IMHO, sf's interface is just awful.
>>
>> > Github, gitorious, code.google are all superior in my opinion (the
>> > potential problem with code.google might be that with them git always
>> > goes through svn but maybe that's not a big problem actually).
>>
>> One very nice thing about Github and Gitorious is that they allow very
>> easy repository cloning, encouraging contributions. Although i favour
>> Gitorious because it's open source, if a bug tracker is needed one would
>> have to go for Github (which is pretty good too, IMO).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> jao
>
> Actually we need a GIT, BugTracker, DL-Section and a ML atleast, I
> haven't checked wether github or gitorious provide *all* 4. Either way
> tuxfamily.org might be an alternative, too.
>
> It features:
>
> - CVS, SVN, GIT (can choose one)
> - Webarea (we only would need it for a bugtracker or a forum or x)
> - Mail domains
> - Mailing list
> - MySQL, PostGreSQL DB (so we can install a bugtracker)
> - Download Repos
> - Domain names
> - Jabber (? is on the list of supported, but I can't see it)
> - Support Forum where WE can ask the admins
>
> Well they use their selfmade VHFFS (www.vhffs.org) (GPL'ed) for all
> stuff, so it also fits the little Richie in us :) additionally they say
> that more will be comming, due to active contributors.
>
> I really like those frenchies, I for a long time believed their
> "Iceland-April-Fool" haha ^_^;
>
> Chris
>

--
Regards,
Lei

[GSR - FR]

Hi,
zanghar@... (2009-09-26 at 1336.46 +0200):

> Hi all,
>
> I've been thinking of going away from GNOME for a long time now.
>
> Since we already host your tarballs on SF.net why not using it for all?
> (all = GIT, BugTracker, ML, blah, but not HP), so (almost) everything
> from one source. Additionally, I can add accounts and stuff on my own,
> no need for waiting for the GNOME guys and such.
>
> I would like to move by the middle of October.
>
> What do you think?

That you will win about adding accounts, but reliability seems to be a
different story if they have not improved. Also the SF mail list
archive has been rather crappy in the past (I prefer ones that give a
mbox archive, so you can still get local working copies), and never
liked *forge bugtrackers. Now even less, I found out you have to click
to expand the contents of a report, uh?

Is there no other place where to move, except SF? Something stable and
more targeted at being used than following the web trend of year. I
have asked around and maybe we could get a virtual host.

GSR
 

[Flashrider]

Am Sonntag, den 27.09.2009, 19:43 +0200 schrieb GSR - FR:

> Hi,
> zanghar@... (2009-09-26 at 1336.46 +0200):
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've been thinking of going away from GNOME for a long time now.
> >
> > Since we already host your tarballs on SF.net why not using it for all?
> > (all = GIT, BugTracker, ML, blah, but not HP), so (almost) everything
> > from one source. Additionally, I can add accounts and stuff on my own,
> > no need for waiting for the GNOME guys and such.
> >
> > I would like to move by the middle of October.
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> That you will win about adding accounts, but reliability seems to be a
> different story if they have not improved. Also the SF mail list
> archive has been rather crappy in the past (I prefer ones that give a
> mbox archive, so you can still get local working copies), and never
> liked *forge bugtrackers. Now even less, I found out you have to click
> to expand the contents of a report, uh?
>
> Is there no other place where to move, except SF? Something stable and

I wrote about Tuxfamily in a previous mail today.

> more targeted at being used than following the web trend of year. I
> have asked around and maybe we could get a virtual host.
>
> GSR
>  

[GSR - FR]

Hi,
zanghar@... (2009-09-27 at 2025.31 +0200):
> > Is there no other place where to move, except SF? Something stable and
> I wrote about Tuxfamily in a previous mail today.

Just saw it, and checked their page a bit. If it allows installing
anything, I see no problem (that is too what we would had to do with
the offer I got). I do not like their mail archives... is really
needed to move everything? Maybe only just git (and bugs?) should
move, I think wiki and mailing list seem to be going fine as they are
(does bugzilla require something to force a change? Last time I tried
the accounts were automatic).

GSR
 

[Teika Kazura]

Hi.

1. We should stick to the current ML, since many silent readers are
there. We've seen many times they sometimes pop out, and do tremendous
contributions. By changing ML, we're likely to cut off, or at least
reduce much this potential.

2. One good thing Gnome has is translation. This must be difficult to
get elsewhere. At least in this point we need contact with Gnome,
rather than saying final farewell.

3.
On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:43:09 +0200, GSR - FR wrote:
> That you will win about adding accounts,

True.

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:09:41 +0200, GSR - FR wrote:
> is really needed to move everything? Maybe only just git (and bugs?)
> should move [...]

I think so too. I see account issue. Chris, you don't like current
bugzilla? How?

For me, the Gnome bugzilla is slow, but transition labor to other
bug-tracking hosts terrifies me more than to stay.

4. Github vs Gitorious
I have only two-day experience in gitorious, but it seems to me that
github has far more help pages than gitorious. I chose gitorious
because I like to de-centralize. Today github is so popular. (So I
hate google, though it's the only search engine I use.)

じゃ (Japanese: bye. pronunciation: jar in English is ok.)
Teika (Teika kazura)

[Flashrider]

First of all, this is not a must-have, if you decide to not move, then
we won't.

Am Dienstag, den 29.09.2009, 16:28 +0900 schrieb Teika Kazura:
> Hi.
>
> 1. We should stick to the current ML, since many silent readers are
> there. We've seen many times they sometimes pop out, and do tremendous
> contributions. By changing ML, we're likely to cut off, or at least
> reduce much this potential.

Hmm you're right here, but wouldn't it be possible to auto-subscribe
everyone who's here to the new one (if one)? I think that should be
doable.

> 2. One good thing Gnome has is translation. This must be difficult to
> get elsewhere. At least in this point we need contact with Gnome,
> rather than saying final farewell.
>

Sawfish is in `Others' section and since 2007 only 3 translations have
been modified. So I won't count that as benefit, since the time MetaCity
got the default GNOME-WM.

> 3.
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:43:09 +0200, GSR - FR wrote:
> > That you will win about adding accounts,
>
> True.
>
> On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:09:41 +0200, GSR - FR wrote:
> > is really needed to move everything? Maybe only just git (and bugs?)
> > should move [...]
>
> I think so too. I see account issue. Chris, you don't like current
> bugzilla? How?
>
> For me, the Gnome bugzilla is slow, but transition labor to other
> bug-tracking hosts terrifies me more than to stay.

Well, transistion is maybe not needed, most (60%) are plans John had,
30% are invalid/closed/fixed meanwhile and the other 10% are mostly
feature-requests and a very few bugreports. And if we use BZ it should
be possible to "simply" copy the librep/rep-gtk/sawfish entries from the
old to the new DB, though Christian Kirbach or someone would have to do
that, as we don't have access to BGOs DB.

> 4. Github vs Gitorious
> I have only two-day experience in gitorious, but it seems to me that
> github has far more help pages than gitorious. I chose gitorious
> because I like to de-centralize. Today github is so popular. (So I
> hate google, though it's the only search engine I use.)
>
> じゃ (Japanese: bye. pronunciation: jar in English is ok.)
> Teika (Teika kazura)

You may ask why?

- GNOME has dropped Sawfish for a very long time and does not support it
in any way anymore (We only have those GIT/BugZilla-Acc/ML as every
project on their server got them, those 3 translations (of which 2 are
outdated again) don't really make a difference) -- This is the major
reason, to leave the "old world" behind and life on our own.

- Sawfish is currently split:

ML/GIT/BZ: GNOME
Downloads: SF
HP: Wikia

I've thought it would be better to have everything in one place. About
the Wiki: shouldn't it be possible to install MediaWiki (or whatever)
on, say, sawfish.tuxfamily.org and simply copy the content of
sawfish.wikia.com to it? I guess that would be the easiest.

Well as I said it's YOUR decision.

Regards,
Chris

[Janek Kozicki]

well, I would stay status-quo. Don't change something that works....

Though having a backup in case if gnome server melts is a good idea.
And if gnome servers died we would recover backup into sf.net or
something else.

--
Janek Kozicki                                                         |

[Mihai Călin Bazon]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Christopher Roy Bratusek <zanghar@...> wrote:

> 2. One good thing Gnome has is translation. This must be difficult to

 

Sawfish is in `Others' section and since 2007 only 3 translations have
been modified.

Perhaps that's because nothing significant changed in Sawfish in the last few years? :-p

Anyway, adding my negative vote, though it shouldn't count much as I'm not involved in development: SF is just too slow and bulky.

Cheers,
-Mihai

[Alexey I. Froloff-4]

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 01:36:46PM +0200, Christopher Roy Bratusek wrote:
> Since we already host your tarballs on SF.net why not using it for all?
SF sux :-(  What about Savannah, http://savannah.nongnu.org/ ?

--
Regards,
Sir Raorn.

[Teika Kazura]

Hi.

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:33:08 +0300, Mihai Călin Bazon wrote:
>> > 2. One good thing Gnome has is translation.
>
>> since 2007 only 3 translations have been modified.
>
> Perhaps that's because nothing significant changed in Sawfish in the last
> few years? :-p

If it is true that Gnome team doesn't work much on sawfish, then we
lose translated strings, little by little, each time improving
existent docstrings. This point needs verification, and more
consideration.

Regards,
Teika (Teika kazura)

[Flashrider]

Am Donnerstag, den 08.10.2009, 17:20 +0900 schrieb Teika Kazura:

> Hi.
>
> On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:33:08 +0300, Mihai Călin Bazon wrote:
> >> > 2. One good thing Gnome has is translation.
> >
> >> since 2007 only 3 translations have been modified.
> >
> > Perhaps that's because nothing significant changed in Sawfish in the last
> > few years? :-p
>
> If it is true that Gnome team doesn't work much on sawfish, then we
> lose translated strings, little by little, each time improving
> existent docstrings. This point needs verification, and more
> consideration.
>
> Regards,
> Teika (Teika kazura)

Well the issue that currently sawfish doesn't like (_ "string") anywhere
else than in list/alist widgets, therefore I can't mark the strings to
translate and the gnome translation team doesn't know about them, more:
the gnome-i18n-team uses intltool to create pot/po files, all strings
not marked (_ ) aren't recognised, so they end up as #~ in the .po files
after the gnome-i18n-team have updated a po file (latest one is de), so
they won't be included in the final .mo file. That's why I run

./update.sh de

and such, to keep the old strings in, since they are in most cases
valid. I'm posting a copy of this mail to the gnome-i18n mailing-list,
to let the peeps from there know the issue. And I want to kill it before
1.6.0.

Chri

[Christian Rose]

On 10/18/09, Christopher Roy Bratusek <zanghar@...> wrote:

> Am Donnerstag, den 08.10.2009, 17:20 +0900 schrieb Teika Kazura:
>  > Hi.
>  >
>  > On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:33:08 +0300, Mihai Călin Bazon wrote:
>  > >> > 2. One good thing Gnome has is translation.
>  > >
>  > >> since 2007 only 3 translations have been modified.
>  > >
>  > > Perhaps that's because nothing significant changed in Sawfish in the last
>  > > few years? :-p
>  >
>  > If it is true that Gnome team doesn't work much on sawfish, then we
>  > lose translated strings, little by little, each time improving
>  > existent docstrings. This point needs verification, and more
>  > consideration.
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  > Teika (Teika kazura)
>
>  Well the issue that currently sawfish doesn't like (_ "string") anywhere
>  else than in list/alist widgets, therefore I can't mark the strings to
>  translate and the gnome translation team doesn't know about them, more:
>  the gnome-i18n-team uses intltool to create pot/po files, all strings
>  not marked (_ ) aren't recognised, so they end up as #~ in the .po files
>  after the gnome-i18n-team have updated a po file (latest one is de), so
>  they won't be included in the final .mo file. That's why I run
>
>  ./update.sh de
>
>  and such, to keep the old strings in, since they are in most cases
>  valid. I'm posting a copy of this mail to the gnome-i18n mailing-list,
>  to let the peeps from there know the issue. And I want to kill it before
>  1.6.0.

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't the proper fix to make Sawfish
use intltool properly, and/or if necessary extend intltool to support
whatever special tricks Sawfish is using?


Christian