[mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)

[Arturus Magi]

On 7/27/06, Beth <imbethers@...> wrote:
>
> [beth] Nikki, sorry, you have extreme knowledge on the Japanese artists,
> many of us don't. In my opinion your instance here is looking at this in the
> same light many of us see the Japanese guidelines. I believe this was
> specifically speaking in terms of the active voters in the active artists,
> and it is, I feel the same reason the Japanese guidelines were created as
> they were.[/beth]
>

Japanese is a different situation, though.  There is a consistent set
of rules which are widely supported, and these rules are supported by
the Japanese government.  The rules happen to be somewhat
contradictory, but cases where that is an issue are rare.  They may
not be official in the literary sense, simply because the language's
native script doesn't have a concept of capitalization, but they are
just as valid as those for languages with internal rules.

The same is true of Latin, in a different manner.  There is no
consistent rule when using classical Latin because there were no such
things as capital letters (or rather, all letters were of the form we
now call capital) in the language during that era.  They were
developed incosistently in different areas of the Roman Empire after
the fact.  There is, however, consistent rules for modern usage in
specific fields, and a general consensus in literary usage.

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[Olivier-10]

2006/7/27, Bogdan Butnaru <bogdanb@...>:

> On 7/27/06, Beth <imbethers@...> wrote:
> > I think it Is a mistake to simplify if there are standard rules known. [...]
> > I think we need to respect the language and artist for each demographic
> > and culture if infact we are going to respect any.
>
> I absolutely agree with this. The problem is that this particular case
> there is no single set of rules.
>
> I just read through most of the French wiki pages on the subject, and
> this comes very clearly from the discussion pages: there is no single

Definitely, I stressed that in the wiki discussion: there isn't one
clear consensus.

> standard. The several authorities in the matter simply don't agree on
> the matter. Some systems are even impossible to correctly represent
> with our software (for example, one system calls for "the Noun" in a
> sentence and "The Noun" when the same title starts the sentence). I've
> even seen systems calling for the capitalization of all nouns in
> French too.
>
> In such cases I think we do have to think hard and pick one system.

Yes :p

> And when we have that oportunity, I think the only justified choice is
> to pick the simple one.

Making a decision based on the simplicity argument really bugs me.
It's also a fact some/most people today have problem even with
properly spelling french.
That does't mean we should drop grammar and correction, and simply
choose the simple solution (letting people write french
"Instant-Message" style)...

>
> (I'll say that again: I don't advocate simplifying anything. I
> advocate simplifying whenever there is no good reason to do it the
> hard way.

The good reason to do it the hard way is that it's common practice
with books, especially with the well known La Pléiade collection (I
repeat: common, not universal, as stated by MLL, there are other
editors that use different rules).
Some other editors don't do it, true, and there are other schemes, but
I think the simple "sentence mode" is simply the bad choice.

I for one think our current set of rules is elegant while not being
outrageously complex, and if it's not the full shebang set of rules,
it's enough to have something decently close to typographic usage.

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[Olivier-10]

2006/7/27, Nikki <nikki@...>:
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:13:00AM +0200, Mangled wrote:
> > >Personally I much prefer standard sentence case because it's much
> > >simpler
> >
> > Being "simpler" doesn't make it "good", or even "better".  Argument
> > discarded, says the prosecutor :D
>
> When did I say that it makes it good or better? I simply stated my
> preference.

Hey! Don't bite me :D
If it's your preference, then you think it's better, don't you? ;)

> I didn't say that the rules are wrong. However, there is no point in
> deciding on rules that nobody except a couple of people use.

There are only a couple of active native french editors anyhow.
Let's just ignore them ;)

>
> > I would say most of them are entered English-style, and 90% of the time
> > are simply murdered (accents are the first victim).
>
> I had a look through 50 recent French albums, there were 30 sentence caps,
> 17 English style and 3 with just the important words capitalised. The only
> ones added using the current guidelines were a couple by you and azertus.
> Are you planning on editing every single French album that gets added?

Why not?
Me, davitof, azertus, MLL, so on.
We need to do so *ANYHOW*, as most of them are mispelled in the first place.
That's routine: most add albums (except by "serious/experienced"
editors) need extra work (release, annots, spelling, caps, etc)

>
> > >Also, because of its complexity,
> >
> > Once again: I don't see any complexity in them, and everybody I asked
> > (including these wanting to remove them) perfectly understand them.  So I
> > think this point is moot: they are *not* complex.
>
> and who did you ask? You didn't ask me and I don't perfectly understand them.

Hey! You bite me again :p
Yes, I didn't ask you, true... coz you're not a native, even if you do
understand french (I don't know exactly how much).

Now, your argument about the fact one can edit without understanding
the language is silly IMO.

I for one is completely incompetent with asian/non-latin languages.
Now, about simply english, how are you supposed to properly cap:
I Got It Bad (and That Ain't Good)
if you don't understand it?

And I never understood why:
Just A-Sittin' and A-Rollin'
(and not Just a-Sittin' and a-Rollin')


>
> Of course you don't find them hard, you're a native speaker and you like
> these rules. They're still complex in that they require knowledge of the
> language and its grammar. When deciding whether a word is capitalised
> depends on its function and position in a sentence, whether the title
> starts with specific words and whether it conains verbs or not. That's a
> lot of things to consider when nearly all the others are simply "is this a
> name? if yes, capitalise it" or "is this a word from a short list of
> joining words? if yes, lowercase it".

See my english example above.
English cap is not always completely trivial either.
Please also remember we never sorted out: 'round Midnight versus
'Round Midnight. (but that's another can of worms)

>
> > Don't cap if it's a verbal phrase.  If it match one of the two simple
> > schemes, and you can identify grammar function of the words, just cap'em
> > ;)
> >
> > Oh, well, forget about it - just drop me a mail when you need some :p
>
> Guess I won't bother fixing any French titles then. Oh well, more work for
> you.

Please do continue to. Sentence mode is right most time.

>
> I really think we should be choosing something sensible, in that people are
> likely to actually use it. You already know that many French albums are a
> mess, but by choosing these guidelines we're making it so that everything
> except what a couple of people have edited is a mess.

They are a mess anyhow. Most releases are not even spelled right.
I stress it again: the fact people can't/don't want to bother even
spelling french right doesn't mean we should accept this situation...

And don't bite me, that hurts :D

- Olivier

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[Olivier-10]

>
> Except there are only 150 albums marked as Latin and over 5000 as French.
> The capitalisation of French titles is already a big problem. It seems to
> be a roughly half and half split between sentence and English, so why would
> we choose a system that the *vast* majority of people don't use? It seems

The vast majority of people use guess case and are not even aware
french has a different system.

> to me that hardly anyone expects titles to be capitalised as they are, and
> when you also consider that MusicBrainz has a constant flow of new people,
> it's much easier all round to use one of the capitalisation systems people
> expect. It's easier to teach 50% of people to use sentence case and fix
> 2500 albums than it is to teach 99% of people to use the current French
> guidelines and fix 5000 albums.

*sigh*
Stressing it again: any native french can understand the rules I sumed
up in two lines.
They present difficulties to non-natives, true, but to natives, there
is hardly any teaching required.

>
> But the situation is completely different. Japanese non-standardness is
> widely supported by people who listen to Japanese music and they tend to
> defend it fiercely. There is no consensus about the French guidelines and
> even many French people themselves aren't using our current ones. How are
> we supposed to get people to use the guidelines when even people who are
> native speakers aren't even using them? The burden of keeping 5000 and
> growing albums in order will be on a just few people, that just won't work.

No time for hypocrisy: MB stays organised thanks to the work of a
handfull of people (most of them are autoeditors), who are constantly
doing cleanup / documentation work.
Add-albums (hitting my subscriptions) 90% of the time require 1-10
more edits before looking good to me. This is not different.

And yes, in order to know all the styleguidelines, you have to read a
lot of stuff, and some are not completely trivial.

And I'm a native speaker, and I use the french s.g., don't I?


And ho, btw, azertus, what about speaking up? :D


- Olivier

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/7/27, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> > Personally I much prefer standard sentence case because it's much simpler
> Being "simpler" doesn't make it "good", or even "better".
> Argument discarded, says the prosecutor :D

It doesn't MAKE it good, but it is a factor. Prosecutor should beware:
he has worked too long with computers, he is starting to think binary
;-)


> > [1] to use and is more consistent; capitalising half of the sentence and not the other half
>
> The so-called "exceptions" do not apply to sentences, but only to non
> verbal phrases.

So to apply the rule, one has to know what is a non-verbal sentence
and recognize one asdsuch in french. I feel this is dangerous. Only
french-speaking users will be able to enter french titles. Imagine a
rule of the same complexity was used for english in MB!


> > looks really strange to me
>
> So I guess you are not very familiar with french books (which is not a
> problem, and is perfectly understandable given you're not a native).
>
> To me, it looks perfectly natural.

Remember, french data is actually entered by non french speaking users.


> > and I don't understand why
> > 'le' makes words capitalised and not 'un'.
>
> Because definite articles are not indefinite articles.

Remember, La Palice was french. To anyone who doesn't understand what
I am refering to, this is a typical french joke. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_la_Palice&e=10401

> > Furthermore, I don't recall
> > seeing any new add release edits where the capitalisation was correct by
> > our current guidelines
>
> Me neither, as I don't enter french releases, and I don't vote a lot.
> Still, I know I fixed quite a few, and I know there are other
> moderators actually fixing them.
>
> Again, to me, the fact some/most people don't read/understand/follow
> guidelines doesn't proove these rules are essentially wrong.

To me it does. Rules are meant to be followed. If too many people
don't follow them because they don't understand them, then you must
change the rules.


> > -- the vast majority seem to be either sentence case
> > or English-style most/every word capitalised.
>
> I would say most of them are entered English-style, and 90% of the
> time are simply murdered (accents are the first victim).

I agree here. Removing accents is a very bad idea because it can
change the meaning.


> > Also, because of its
> > complexity,
>
> Once again: I don't see any complexity in them, and everybody I asked
> (including these wanting to remove them) perfectly understand them.
> So I think this point is moot: they are *not* complex.

No. They are moderately complex (granted, there are more complex rules
in french, but remember, french is our native language, we should not
judge from our point of view alone).

> > we can't develop a guess case mode for it.
>
> Who says that? Keschte? (*ping* Keschte)
> And no, it's not because of its (supposed) complexity, but because
> Guess Case doesn't understand grammar.
> The fact computer are bad at dealing with grammar (or semantic) is not
> an argument IMO.
>
> There are a lot of things computers are bad at doing.
>
> That's why we need human editors.

I couldn't disagree more.


> > --Nikki, who isn't a native French speaker and also still doesn't
> > understand when to capitalise words in French.
>
> Don't cap if it's a verbal phrase.
> If it match one of the two simple schemes, and you can identify
> grammar function of the words, just cap'em ;)
>
> Oh, well, forget about it - just drop me a mail when you need some :p

Right, call Olivier/Mangled, but only call me as a last resort. I'd
rather not spend time on correcting titles following a rule I don't
like.


> > 1: Out of our 25 capitalisation standards, 19 are normal sentence case
> > (i.e. first letter and all proper nouns capitalised), 4 are every word
> > capitalised except for a short list of conjunctions etc. and just French
> > and German are complex enough to require the editor to understand the
> > language.
>
> Mmmm, so I guess the next victim will be german? hey, Shep! ;)

I wouldn't give any opinion about German because I would be unable to
see the true importance of the rules. Fact is, in french, wether you
write everything in upper case, lower case or a (logical) mix of them,
the meaning will be the same. So apart from proper nouns and special
cases such as !eXistenZ et amaroK, I think anything could be
acceptable, as long as it is understandable.

Now, let us look at the problem from another point of view, Olivier.
What would you do if a similar system was chosen for a widely used
language (english, german, italian, spanish...) which you don't
understand but you will want to enter titles in? Will you
1-enter the tracks wrongly, hoping another user will correct them afterwards
2-call a reference user to help you
3-learn the language
4-...?
And what would be the state of the database? Once again, what is the
use of a rule if there aren't enough users to enforce it?

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[Olivier-10]

Summing up arguments, with answers:

a - the "exceptions" are complex to understand

Only to non native.
Natives have no problem understanding them.
And I disagree with nikki: you *do* *need* to understand a language to
be able to edit/cap it.

b - ambiguous

Example?

c - counter-intuitive

To some people. To others, they are intuitive.

d - silly

Probably.
French is.
At least, I prefer to be silly with La Pléiade, rather than be
sensible with the Reader's Digest.
Elitism? :D

e - most people don't use them, as they don't understand them

Most people don't use them coz they don't want to be bothered reading
them, like with most styleguides.
Most french people who do read them have no problem understanding them
(in fact, *all* french people I met on MB).

f - there has been some discussion at wikipedia about them, so they
are not really a consensus

Which is not an argument for either system.

g - so we should choose the simple one

I strongly disagree with this argument (see the answer in previous mail).

h - MB french releases are in such a bad state, there's no point in
keeping our current rules, as the proposed simplification will make
the bad shape looks a bit better

That's not a solution.
We could also drop other SG to address problems.
We don't.

i - if only a handful of editors understand them (== french editors),
it won't work, as they won't be able manage the flow

5 editors.
3 albums fixing a day.
365 days in a year.



Hey, who said this discussion would only fire a few posts? :)

- Olivier

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:

> 2006/7/27, Bogdan Butnaru <bogdanb@...>:
> > On 7/27/06, Beth <imbethers@...> wrote:
> > > I think it Is a mistake to simplify if there are standard rules known. [...]
> > > I think we need to respect the language and artist for each demographic
> > > and culture if infact we are going to respect any.
> >
> > I absolutely agree with this. The problem is that this particular case
> > there is no single set of rules.
> >
> > I just read through most of the French wiki pages on the subject, and
> > this comes very clearly from the discussion pages: there is no single
>
> Definitely, I stressed that in the wiki discussion: there isn't one
> clear consensus.
>
> > standard. The several authorities in the matter simply don't agree on
> > the matter. Some systems are even impossible to correctly represent
> > with our software (for example, one system calls for "the Noun" in a
> > sentence and "The Noun" when the same title starts the sentence). I've
> > even seen systems calling for the capitalization of all nouns in
> > French too.
> >
> > In such cases I think we do have to think hard and pick one system.
>
> Yes :p
>
> > And when we have that oportunity, I think the only justified choice is
> > to pick the simple one.
>
> Making a decision based on the simplicity argument really bugs me.
> It's also a fact some/most people today have problem even with
> properly spelling french.
> That does't mean we should drop grammar and correction, and simply
> choose the simple solution (letting people write french
> "Instant-Message" style)...

I agree about grammar and spelling. But grammar and spelling are quite
different. Rules aren't much contested and any user with an european
keyboard won't have much problems following those rules while entering
a track: he'll just have to copy the characters. The fault (if there
is one) will fall on the artist or the editor not on the user.
Capitalization rules are specific in that they require that the user
transforms what is printed.

> > (I'll say that again: I don't advocate simplifying anything. I
> > advocate simplifying whenever there is no good reason to do it the
> > hard way.
>
> The good reason to do it the hard way is that it's common practice
> with books, especially with the well known La Pléiade collection (I
> repeat: common, not universal, as stated by MLL, there are other
> editors that use different rules).
> Some other editors don't do it, true, and there are other schemes, but
> I think the simple "sentence mode" is simply the bad choice.

I have much respect for La Pléiade, but I happen to have a few books
from them. I took the first one, Dante's Divine Comedy, and here is
what I found: "Le passeur, Charon" (should have been "Le Passeur,
Charon") and later: "La tempête infernale". So your champions don't
seem to understand the rules. Or the rules are actually more complex.


> I for one think our current set of rules is elegant while not being
> outrageously complex, and if it's not the full shebang set of rules,
> it's enough to have something decently close to typographic usage.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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[Thomas Tholén-2]

> Now, let us look at the problem from another point of view, Olivier.
> What would you do if a similar system was chosen for a widely used
> language (english, german, italian, spanish...) which you don't
> understand but you will want to enter titles in? Will you
> 1-enter the tracks wrongly, hoping another user will correct them afterwards
> 2-call a reference user to help you
> 3-learn the language
> 4-...?

Any one of those will work I suppose. There's not really much meaning to have
caps rules that works for people having no clue whatsoever about the language
in question. They wouldn't even know which words are names, so they couldn't
ever do anything better that just blindly guess anyway.

//[bnw]

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> Summing up arguments, with answers:
>
> a - the "exceptions" are complex to understand
>
> Only to non native.
> Natives have no problem understanding them.

Educated natives.


> And I disagree with nikki: you *do* *need* to understand a language to
> be able to edit/cap it.

You currently need. You should not need.


> b - ambiguous
>
> Example?

I don't think they are ambiguous either. Rather complex, but not ambiguous


> c - counter-intuitive
>
> To some people. To others, they are intuitive.

Understandable (I definitely wouldn't say intuitive) to people who
understand french. Meaningless to others.


> d - silly
>
> Probably.
> French is.
> At least, I prefer to be silly with La Pléiade, rather than be
> sensible with the Reader's Digest.
> Elitism? :D

I can understand defending tradition. But you must remember this has a
cost. So I would be 100% on your side, Olivier, if MB was a community
about literature. But it is about music.


> e - most people don't use them, as they don't understand them
>
> Most people don't use them coz they don't want to be bothered reading
> them, like with most styleguides.
> Most french people who do read them have no problem understanding them
> (in fact, *all* french people I met on MB).

Remember, except me and mll.


> f - there has been some discussion at wikipedia about them, so they
> are not really a consensus
>
> Which is not an argument for either system.

Quite.


> g - so we should choose the simple one
>
> I strongly disagree with this argument (see the answer in previous mail).

I do agree. Traditions have their limits.


> h - MB french releases are in such a bad state, there's no point in
> keeping our current rules, as the proposed simplification will make
> the bad shape looks a bit better
>
> That's not a solution.
> We could also drop other SG to address problems.
> We don't.

I agree.


> i - if only a handful of editors understand them (== french editors),
> it won't work, as they won't be able manage the flow
>
> 5 editors.
> 3 albums fixing a day.
> 365 days in a year.

Don't count me. I don't even fix 1 album a day, anyhow :-(


> Hey, who said this discussion would only fire a few posts? :)

Discussion involving frenchies?.Discussion is our preferred sport.
Even better than football.


--
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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/7/28, Thomas Tholén <Thomas.Tholen.0851@...>:

> > Now, let us look at the problem from another point of view, Olivier.
> > What would you do if a similar system was chosen for a widely used
> > language (english, german, italian, spanish...) which you don't
> > understand but you will want to enter titles in? Will you
> > 1-enter the tracks wrongly, hoping another user will correct them afterwards
> > 2-call a reference user to help you
> > 3-learn the language
> > 4-...?
>
> Any one of those will work I suppose. There's not really much meaning to have
> caps rules that works for people having no clue whatsoever about the language
> in question. They wouldn't even know which words are names, so they couldn't
> ever do anything better that just blindly guess anyway.

I disagree. I don't know the rules for Spanish or Italian (I don't
know Italian at all), but If these languages use only Sentence Case, I
feel I would be able to enter titles more or less correctly in them.
Actually, I did enter tracks in Italian. This of course is not true
for German.

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[Olivier-10]

> I have much respect for La Pléiade, but I happen to have a few books
> from them. I took the first one, Dante's Divine Comedy, and here is
> what I found: "Le passeur, Charon" (should have been "Le Passeur,
> Charon") and later: "La tempête infernale". So your champions don't
> seem to understand the rules. Or the rules are actually more complex.

Heyhey :p
Yes, they are.
And La Pléiade also use different cap depending on where the title is
printed (front cover, top of the page).
I don't have (Dante) at hand, but I think I remember my "champions"
didn't betrayed me with Kafka ;).
Anyhow, La Pléiade is just an example amongst others.
And as previously stated, it's a known fact there's no consensus
(still it's my feeling our current set of rules is decently close to
what I think is common practice).

- Olivier

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[bogdanb]

On 7/28/06, Mangled <viapanda@...> wrote:

> 2006/7/27, Bogdan Butnaru <bogdanb@...>:
> > (I'll say that again: I don't advocate simplifying anything. I
> > advocate simplifying whenever there is no good reason to do it the
> > hard way.
>
> The good reason to do it the hard way is that it's common practice
> with books, especially with the well known La Pléiade collection (I
> repeat: common, not universal, as stated by MLL, there are other
> editors that use different rules).
> Some other editors don't do it, true, and there are other schemes, but
> I think the simple "sentence mode" is simply the bad choice.

I'm still not getting through to you: the reason you gave is not
really a "good reason":

1) the first thing, we're not a books database, but a music database.
Even the fact that _all_ we do is titles (as opposed to a title every
several thousand words, as in a book), is a _very_ good argument for
simplicity.

2) you said it yourself "it's common practice with [...] especially
the well known La Pléiade collection" — that's a really bad argument,
because the same can be said about sentence case, for example. That
one is common too, I'm quite sure. Even so, I really doubt we use the
exact same rules as them.

> I for one think our current set of rules is elegant while not being
> outrageously complex, and if it's not the full shebang set of rules,
> it's enough to have something decently close to typographic usage.

The claim of being elegant is very disputable. First of all, it's a
personal prefference. Second, what's elegant on a leather-bound book
cover or as a chapter heading is not necessarily elegant as a
tracklisting or in a discography, for everyone else.

(Just for the record, I think the 'complex' version of the rules is
very ugly when applied to musicbrainz; that's a personal prefference.
It's not why I advocate changing the rules. The reason I advocate
changing the rules is that they're unfounded (only a relatively small
section of French users agree with them, as opposed to the
near-universality of English or German capitalization rules), and in
such a situation we should pick the simplest correct version. Note
that spelling is totally different: the correct French spelling is
accepted near-universally among the French users; even though some ask
for a reform, there is a nearly universally accepted set of existing
rules. This is decidedly not true for capitalization.)

-- Bogdan Butnaru — bogdanb@...
"I think I am a fallen star, I should wish on myself." – O.

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[Olivier-10]

> It doesn't MAKE it good, but it is a factor. Prosecutor should beware:
> he has worked too long with computers, he is starting to think binary
> ;-)

Caught red-handed :D

> So to apply the rule, one has to know what is a non-verbal sentence
> and recognize one asdsuch in french. I feel this is dangerous. Only
> french-speaking users will be able to enter french titles. Imagine a
> rule of the same complexity was used for english in MB!

As I stated in another mail, you have to understand english to cap it
properly in some cases (granted, they are rare, but they exist).


> Remember, La Palice was french. To anyone who doesn't understand what
> I am refering to, this is a typical french joke. See
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_la_Palice&e=10401

Ha! So somebody noticed :D

> >
> > Who says that? Keschte? (*ping* Keschte)
> > And no, it's not because of its (supposed) complexity, but because
> > Guess Case doesn't understand grammar.
> > The fact computer are bad at dealing with grammar (or semantic) is not
> > an argument IMO.
> >
> > There are a lot of things computers are bad at doing.
> >
> > That's why we need human editors.
>
> I couldn't disagree more.

Can you explain a bit?

> the meaning will be the same. So apart from proper nouns and special
> cases such as !eXistenZ et amaroK, I think anything could be
> acceptable, as long as it is understandable.

And looks good ;).

> Now, let us look at the problem from another point of view, Olivier.
> What would you do if a similar system was chosen for a widely used
> language (english, german, italian, spanish...) which you don't
> understand but you will want to enter titles in? Will you
> 1-enter the tracks wrongly, hoping another user will correct them afterwards
> 2-call a reference user to help you
> 3-learn the language
> 4-...?
> And what would be the state of the database? Once again, what is the
> use of a rule if there aren't enough users to enforce it?

What I'm already doing.
For german, I always drop on irc and ping Shepard.
For spanish/portuguese, I have an agreement with another editor, and I
just drop him a mail, I know he will look at it usually in 24-48
hours.

For english problems, I have a lot of choices, but nikki/Beth/Joan
usually are there to help.

Except english, I don't feel like editing alone (even on spanish I
understand a bit).

- Olivier

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:

> > I have much respect for La Pléiade, but I happen to have a few books
> > from them. I took the first one, Dante's Divine Comedy, and here is
> > what I found: "Le passeur, Charon" (should have been "Le Passeur,
> > Charon") and later: "La tempête infernale". So your champions don't
> > seem to understand the rules. Or the rules are actually more complex.
>
> Heyhey :p
> Yes, they are.
> And La Pléiade also use different cap depending on where the title is
> printed (front cover, top of the page).
> I don't have (Dante) at hand, but I think I remember my "champions"
> didn't betrayed me with Kafka ;).
> Anyhow, La Pléiade is just an example amongst others.
> And as previously stated, it's a known fact there's no consensus
> (still it's my feeling our current set of rules is decently close to
> what I think is common practice).

Well, maybe the rules vary depending on the original language? No,
just joking :-D

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[Olivier-10]

Ok, so now that our apetite for our favorite sport is satisfied, what do we do?

I have to admit my dear contradictors have made a few points, although
some of them are just silly native english just wishing to override us
again :D

All in all, this all boils down to personnal preference...
So, do we vote or something?

/me now goes creating a few "friends" in preparation of the vote :D


- Olivier

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[Olivier-10]

Mangled now takes an aspirin and handles one also to davitof :D

2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:

> 2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> > > I have much respect for La Pléiade, but I happen to have a few books
> > > from them. I took the first one, Dante's Divine Comedy, and here is
> > > what I found: "Le passeur, Charon" (should have been "Le Passeur,
> > > Charon") and later: "La tempête infernale". So your champions don't
> > > seem to understand the rules. Or the rules are actually more complex.
> >
> > Heyhey :p
> > Yes, they are.
> > And La Pléiade also use different cap depending on where the title is
> > printed (front cover, top of the page).
> > I don't have (Dante) at hand, but I think I remember my "champions"
> > didn't betrayed me with Kafka ;).
> > Anyhow, La Pléiade is just an example amongst others.
> > And as previously stated, it's a known fact there's no consensus
> > (still it's my feeling our current set of rules is decently close to
> > what I think is common practice).
>
> Well, maybe the rules vary depending on the original language? No,
> just joking :-D
>
> --
> Frederic Da Vitoria
>
> _______________________________________________
> Musicbrainz-style mailing list
> Musicbrainz-style@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:

> > It doesn't MAKE it good, but it is a factor. Prosecutor should beware:
> > he has worked too long with computers, he is starting to think binary
> > ;-)
>
> Caught red-handed :D
>
> > So to apply the rule, one has to know what is a non-verbal sentence
> > and recognize one asdsuch in french. I feel this is dangerous. Only
> > french-speaking users will be able to enter french titles. Imagine a
> > rule of the same complexity was used for english in MB!
>
> As I stated in another mail, you have to understand english to cap it
> properly in some cases (granted, they are rare, but they exist).
>
>
> > Remember, La Palice was french. To anyone who doesn't understand what
> > I am refering to, this is a typical french joke. See
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_la_Palice&e=10401
>
> Ha! So somebody noticed :D
>
> > >
> > > Who says that? Keschte? (*ping* Keschte)
> > > And no, it's not because of its (supposed) complexity, but because
> > > Guess Case doesn't understand grammar.
> > > The fact computer are bad at dealing with grammar (or semantic) is not
> > > an argument IMO.
> > >
> > > There are a lot of things computers are bad at doing.
> > >
> > > That's why we need human editors.
> >
> > I couldn't disagree more.
>
> Can you explain a bit?

Well, maybe I worked too long with computers too, but I tend to prefer
when a computer can do the checking automatically. It feels much
safer. For example, in English, it would be possible to design a
script that would browse all English titles and extract all the titles
that don't seem to comply to the rules.


> > the meaning will be the same. So apart from proper nouns and special
> > cases such as !eXistenZ et amaroK, I think anything could be
> > acceptable, as long as it is understandable.
>
> And looks good ;).

I agree, but I agree with mll, "Le Bon, la brute et le truand" does
not look good at all. This is quite silly. For non french-speaking
users, this means: "The Good, the bad and the ugly".

> > Now, let us look at the problem from another point of view, Olivier.
> > What would you do if a similar system was chosen for a widely used
> > language (english, german, italian, spanish...) which you don't
> > understand but you will want to enter titles in? Will you
> > 1-enter the tracks wrongly, hoping another user will correct them afterwards
> > 2-call a reference user to help you
> > 3-learn the language
> > 4-...?
> > And what would be the state of the database? Once again, what is the
> > use of a rule if there aren't enough users to enforce it?
>
> What I'm already doing.
> For german, I always drop on irc and ping Shepard.
> For spanish/portuguese, I have an agreement with another editor, and I
> just drop him a mail, I know he will look at it usually in 24-48
> hours.
>
> For english problems, I have a lot of choices, but nikki/Beth/Joan
> usually are there to help.
>
> Except english, I don't feel like editing alone (even on spanish I
> understand a bit).

Because you care. And you use IRC. What about the user who has just
bought a french album and wants to tag it for his mp3 device? Do you
think he will wait 24 hours for your answer about capitalization? I
don't think so. I am not even sure I would do it. I think I would
enter it the best I could in MB and say "If someone cares more, let
him find about it and edit it". That is exactly what I do with
Italian. Or Portuguese. Or English (though I have a feeling I have
understood the rules, here).

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

Thanks for the aspirin :-)

Frankly; if there is only two of us wishing to change the rules,
please spare us the shame of a vote ;-)

2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:

> Mangled now takes an aspirin and handles one also to davitof :D
>
> 2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
> > 2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> > > > I have much respect for La Pléiade, but I happen to have a few books
> > > > from them. I took the first one, Dante's Divine Comedy, and here is
> > > > what I found: "Le passeur, Charon" (should have been "Le Passeur,
> > > > Charon") and later: "La tempête infernale". So your champions don't
> > > > seem to understand the rules. Or the rules are actually more complex.
> > >
> > > Heyhey :p
> > > Yes, they are.
> > > And La Pléiade also use different cap depending on where the title is
> > > printed (front cover, top of the page).
> > > I don't have (Dante) at hand, but I think I remember my "champions"
> > > didn't betrayed me with Kafka ;).
> > > Anyhow, La Pléiade is just an example amongst others.
> > > And as previously stated, it's a known fact there's no consensus
> > > (still it's my feeling our current set of rules is decently close to
> > > what I think is common practice).
> >
> > Well, maybe the rules vary depending on the original language? No,
> > just joking :-D
> >
> > --
> > Frederic Da Vitoria
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Musicbrainz-style mailing list
> > Musicbrainz-style@...
> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Musicbrainz-style mailing list
> Musicbrainz-style@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[Olivier-10]

2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
> Thanks for the aspirin :-)
>
> Frankly; if there is only two of us wishing to change the rules,
> please spare us the shame of a vote ;-)

Heee, well, if I count these silly english people, you are at least
four, and I feel pretty lonely :)

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[Beth-2]

Oh, I just think you two need to wait for the next wave. ;) <ding ding> back
to your corners. :) no, seriously I don't feel I can say anything about
this.. I mean, it's you two I always go to for French.. so. :) I probably
should've kept out of the whole thing, though I did want to say don't close
it so fast, others are certain to respond later, or on the 'morrow.

-----Original Message-----
From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
[mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
Frederic Da Vitoria
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:16 AM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)

Thanks for the aspirin :-)

Frankly; if there is only two of us wishing to change the rules,
please spare us the shame of a vote ;-)

2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> Mangled now takes an aspirin and handles one also to davitof :D
>
> 2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
> > 2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> > > > I have much respect for La Pléiade, but I happen to have a few books
> > > > from them. I took the first one, Dante's Divine Comedy, and here is
> > > > what I found: "Le passeur, Charon" (should have been "Le Passeur,
> > > > Charon") and later: "La tempête infernale". So your champions don't
> > > > seem to understand the rules. Or the rules are actually more
complex.

> > >
> > > Heyhey :p
> > > Yes, they are.
> > > And La Pléiade also use different cap depending on where the title is
> > > printed (front cover, top of the page).
> > > I don't have (Dante) at hand, but I think I remember my "champions"
> > > didn't betrayed me with Kafka ;).
> > > Anyhow, La Pléiade is just an example amongst others.
> > > And as previously stated, it's a known fact there's no consensus
> > > (still it's my feeling our current set of rules is decently close to
> > > what I think is common practice).
> >
> > Well, maybe the rules vary depending on the original language? No,
> > just joking :-D
> >
> > --
> > Frederic Da Vitoria
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Musicbrainz-style mailing list
> > Musicbrainz-style@...
> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Musicbrainz-style mailing list
> Musicbrainz-style@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>

--
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