[mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)

[Olivier-10]

2006/7/28, Beth <imbethers@...>:
> Oh, I just think you two need to wait for the next wave. ;) <ding ding> back
> to your corners. :) no, seriously I don't feel I can say anything about
> this.. I mean, it's you two I always go to for French.. so. :) I probably
> should've kept out of the whole thing, though I did want to say don't close
> it so fast, others are certain to respond later, or on the 'morrow.

No problem :) (although the point is somewhat beaten to death)

Anyhow, I'm off again for a few days :(.
I'll try to check the ML, though.

And don't vote without me :D

Regards to you all, ttyl

- Olivier

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

Yes, you are right, Beth. See, just 5 minutes and I found a question
to ask to Olivier :-D

Apart from following the example of La Pléiade, what arguments do you
bring in favor of the (in)famous exception (which you don't want to
call an exception, but humor me)? Or would rather, how would you
explain that MB must enforce this rule? Could we not just say: "both
ways are acceptable"?

Since we agree there are several rules

2006/7/28, Beth <imbethers@...>:

> Oh, I just think you two need to wait for the next wave. ;) <ding ding> back
> to your corners. :) no, seriously I don't feel I can say anything about
> this.. I mean, it's you two I always go to for French.. so. :) I probably
> should've kept out of the whole thing, though I did want to say don't close
> it so fast, others are certain to respond later, or on the 'morrow.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
> Frederic Da Vitoria
> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:16 AM
> To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)
>
> Thanks for the aspirin :-)
>
> Frankly; if there is only two of us wishing to change the rules,
> please spare us the shame of a vote ;-)
>
> 2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> > Mangled now takes an aspirin and handles one also to davitof :D
> >
> > 2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
> > > 2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> > > > > I have much respect for La Pléiade, but I happen to have a few books
> > > > > from them. I took the first one, Dante's Divine Comedy, and here is
> > > > > what I found: "Le passeur, Charon" (should have been "Le Passeur,
> > > > > Charon") and later: "La tempête infernale". So your champions don't
> > > > > seem to understand the rules. Or the rules are actually more
> complex.
> > > >
> > > > Heyhey :p
> > > > Yes, they are.
> > > > And La Pléiade also use different cap depending on where the title is
> > > > printed (front cover, top of the page).
> > > > I don't have (Dante) at hand, but I think I remember my "champions"
> > > > didn't betrayed me with Kafka ;).
> > > > Anyhow, La Pléiade is just an example amongst others.
> > > > And as previously stated, it's a known fact there's no consensus
> > > > (still it's my feeling our current set of rules is decently close to
> > > > what I think is common practice).
> > >
> > > Well, maybe the rules vary depending on the original language? No,
> > > just joking :-D
> > >
> > > --
> > > Frederic Da Vitoria
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Musicbrainz-style mailing list
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> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Musicbrainz-style@...
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> >
>
>
> --
> Frederic Da Vitoria
>
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--
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[Nikki-12]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 01:35:51PM +0200, Thomas Tholén wrote:
> Any one of those will work I suppose. There's not really much meaning to have
> caps rules that works for people having no clue whatsoever about the language
> in question. They wouldn't even know which words are names, so they couldn't
> ever do anything better that just blindly guess anyway.

Well, it's not black and white! There are people like me who know some
French. In Britain, a lot of people do French in school. They probably
understand a little bit and can perhaps pick out names, but they wouldn't
have a good grasp on the grammar. Sentence case wouldn't be difficult,
although they might accidentally miss some of the names, but the current
guidelines would be too hard. While non-native speakers can fairly
confidently use sentence case, they can't, assuming they understand them in
the first place, use the current guidelines with anywhere near as much
confidence.

I'm not trying to say that we should write guidelines in favour of
non-native speakers, but the current guidelines have been like that for
ages and still hardly anyone uses them. On the other hand, plenty of
people, French or not, are using sentence case.

--Nikki

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[azertus]

Mangled schreef:

>>
>> Except there are only 150 albums marked as Latin and over 5000 as French.
>> The capitalisation of French titles is already a big problem. It seems to
>> be a roughly half and half split between sentence and English, so why
>> would
>> we choose a system that the *vast* majority of people don't use? It seems
>
> The vast majority of people use guess case and are not even aware
> french has a different system.
>
>> to me that hardly anyone expects titles to be capitalised as they are,
>> and
>> when you also consider that MusicBrainz has a constant flow of new
>> people,
>> it's much easier all round to use one of the capitalisation systems
>> people
>> expect. It's easier to teach 50% of people to use sentence case and fix
>> 2500 albums than it is to teach 99% of people to use the current French
>> guidelines and fix 5000 albums.
>
> *sigh*
> Stressing it again: any native french can understand the rules I sumed
> up in two lines.
> They present difficulties to non-natives, true, but to natives, there
> is hardly any teaching required.
>
>>
>> But the situation is completely different. Japanese non-standardness is
>> widely supported by people who listen to Japanese music and they tend to
>> defend it fiercely. There is no consensus about the French guidelines and
>> even many French people themselves aren't using our current ones. How are
>> we supposed to get people to use the guidelines when even people who are
>> native speakers aren't even using them? The burden of keeping 5000 and
>> growing albums in order will be on a just few people, that just won't
>> work.
>
> No time for hypocrisy: MB stays organised thanks to the work of a
> handfull of people (most of them are autoeditors), who are constantly
> doing cleanup / documentation work.
> Add-albums (hitting my subscriptions) 90% of the time require 1-10
> more edits before looking good to me. This is not different.
>
> And yes, in order to know all the styleguidelines, you have to read a
> lot of stuff, and some are not completely trivial.
>
> And I'm a native speaker, and I use the french s.g., don't I?
>
>
> And ho, btw, azertus, what about speaking up? :D

I really didn't have the energy for such a long, little bit heated,
discussion right now.

I will suggest *a compromise* though...

The CapitalizationStandardFrench used to say (and probably still says in
the English part) that the exceptions _may_ be used. This statement is
to be reinserted/kept. (possibly the page is a bit rewritten to look
less daunting)

We then only have to agree not to change track titles back from the most
elegant form (:p, couldn't resist it) to the simpler form.

Would it be unreasonable to request that the titles formatted using the
exceptions are left alone? The argument being a lot more thought went
into them?

PS: Perhaps using TaggerScript, capitalized titles could be simplified?
<<If followed by L', Le or La, decapitalize the 2nd [and 3rd ]word?>>

azertus

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[Beth-2]

I think you would have to add an annotation to help people identify that
this is indeed the way it should be. (considering not everyone looks at past
editor notes.)

-----Original Message-----
From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
[mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
azertus
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 8:24 AM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)

Mangled schreef:

>>
>> Except there are only 150 albums marked as Latin and over 5000 as French.
>> The capitalisation of French titles is already a big problem. It seems to
>> be a roughly half and half split between sentence and English, so why
>> would
>> we choose a system that the *vast* majority of people don't use? It seems
>
> The vast majority of people use guess case and are not even aware
> french has a different system.
>
>> to me that hardly anyone expects titles to be capitalised as they are,
>> and
>> when you also consider that MusicBrainz has a constant flow of new
>> people,
>> it's much easier all round to use one of the capitalisation systems
>> people
>> expect. It's easier to teach 50% of people to use sentence case and fix
>> 2500 albums than it is to teach 99% of people to use the current French
>> guidelines and fix 5000 albums.
>
> *sigh*
> Stressing it again: any native french can understand the rules I sumed
> up in two lines.
> They present difficulties to non-natives, true, but to natives, there
> is hardly any teaching required.
>
>>
>> But the situation is completely different. Japanese non-standardness is
>> widely supported by people who listen to Japanese music and they tend to
>> defend it fiercely. There is no consensus about the French guidelines and
>> even many French people themselves aren't using our current ones. How are
>> we supposed to get people to use the guidelines when even people who are
>> native speakers aren't even using them? The burden of keeping 5000 and
>> growing albums in order will be on a just few people, that just won't
>> work.
>
> No time for hypocrisy: MB stays organised thanks to the work of a
> handfull of people (most of them are autoeditors), who are constantly
> doing cleanup / documentation work.
> Add-albums (hitting my subscriptions) 90% of the time require 1-10
> more edits before looking good to me. This is not different.
>
> And yes, in order to know all the styleguidelines, you have to read a
> lot of stuff, and some are not completely trivial.
>
> And I'm a native speaker, and I use the french s.g., don't I?
>
>
> And ho, btw, azertus, what about speaking up? :D

I really didn't have the energy for such a long, little bit heated,
discussion right now.

I will suggest *a compromise* though...

The CapitalizationStandardFrench used to say (and probably still says in
the English part) that the exceptions _may_ be used. This statement is
to be reinserted/kept. (possibly the page is a bit rewritten to look
less daunting)

We then only have to agree not to change track titles back from the most
elegant form (:p, couldn't resist it) to the simpler form.

Would it be unreasonable to request that the titles formatted using the
exceptions are left alone? The argument being a lot more thought went
into them?

PS: Perhaps using TaggerScript, capitalized titles could be simplified?
<<If followed by L', Le or La, decapitalize the 2nd [and 3rd ]word?>>

azertus

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[azertus]

Fine. I have done this already on several releases. [1] We could perhaps
add something like that to that wikipage of pre-written annotations...

[1] http://musicbrainz.org/release/fd14a4e3-f39a-4fef-afba-36ab8d22902b.html

azertus

Beth schreef:
> I think you would have to add an annotation to help people identify that
> this is indeed the way it should be. (considering not everyone looks at past
> editor notes.)

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[Nikki-12]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 04:24:04PM +0200, azertus wrote:
> The CapitalizationStandardFrench used to say (and probably still says in
> the English part) that the exceptions _may_ be used. This statement is
> to be reinserted/kept. (possibly the page is a bit rewritten to look
> less daunting)
>
> We then only have to agree not to change track titles back from the most
> elegant form (:p, couldn't resist it) to the simpler form.

How is that any different from using the current rules in the first
place? People would just use sentence or English case until one of the few
people who support the current rules comes and makes it immutable.

> Would it be unreasonable to request that the titles formatted using the
> exceptions are left alone? The argument being a lot more thought went
> into them?

But apparently the capitalisation is simple for French speakers... does it
really need so much thought if it is?

> PS: Perhaps using TaggerScript, capitalized titles could be simplified?
> <<If followed by L', Le or La, decapitalize the 2nd [and 3rd ]word?>>

What about the 4th and 5th words? Are they ever capitalised? How do you
know that those words won't be names?

--Nikki

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[bogdanb]

On 7/28/06, azertus <azertus@...> wrote:
> Mangled schreef:
> > *sigh*
> > Stressing it again: any native french can understand the rules I sumed
> > up in two lines.
> > They present difficulties to non-natives, true, but to natives, there
> > is hardly any teaching required.

I didn't mention this, and I think I should, even though I'm against
the current "complex" rules: the current rules are not hard to
understand (though the "verbal phrase" formula has a couple of issues,
they can be solved). My French is execrable, but even a bit of French
is enough to tell a noun from a verb. One may need perhaps a
dictionary _sometimes_, but that's true sometimes even for your mother
tongue.

I don't have a problem with being hard to understand; not even with
being hard to apply: I just think that they're _unjustifiably_ more
complex than they could be.

> I will suggest *a compromise* though...
>
> The CapitalizationStandardFrench used to say (and probably still says in
> the English part) that the exceptions _may_ be used. This statement is
> to be reinserted/kept. (possibly the page is a bit rewritten to look
> less daunting)
>
> We then only have to agree not to change track titles back from the most
> elegant form (:p, couldn't resist it) to the simpler form.
>
> Would it be unreasonable to request that the titles formatted using the
> exceptions are left alone? The argument being a lot more thought went
> into them?

Well, they did say the "exceptions" are optional, and I did follow
that (I tried to only change completely wrong titles) until someone
changed the wiki a couple weeks ago to "must" instead of "may". (I
think that triggered this discussion.)

If the "optionality" of the exception would be made very clear, it
would work just fine. Actually, it would work a just a bit better than
it would before: only people who actually care to read the rule would
give a damn. But that "lock release" RFE would be very handy to make
sure people don't "fix" things that aren't "broken".

(I imagine it's not very straightforward, but is anyone working on that?)

> PS: Perhaps using TaggerScript, capitalized titles could be simplified?
> <<If followed by L', Le or La, decapitalize the 2nd [and 3rd ]word?>>

That would work just fine, except we can't tell if a track's name is
in French. Until we have per-track language setting, it'll be
half-guess work. (For example, you forgot "les", we'd have to think
about "Du", and I'm sure "L'..." is used in some other languages.)

-- Bogdan Butnaru — bogdanb@...
"I think I am a fallen star, I should wish on myself." – O.

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[bogdanb]

On 7/28/06, Nikki <nikki@...> wrote:
> > PS: Perhaps using TaggerScript, capitalized titles could be simplified?
> > <<If followed by L', Le or La, decapitalize the 2nd [and 3rd ]word?>>
>
> What about the 4th and 5th words? Are they ever capitalised? How do you
> know that those words won't be names?

Oh yes, I forgot about that too: "The Very Great Thing" must become
"The very great thing", but the "The Very Great Johnny" must become
"The very great Johnny"...


-- Bogdan Butnaru — bogdanb@...
"I think I am a fallen star, I should wish on myself." – O.

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[Nikki-12]

On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 01:10:48PM +0200, Mangled wrote:

> >But the situation is completely different. Japanese non-standardness is
> >widely supported by people who listen to Japanese music and they tend to
> >defend it fiercely. There is no consensus about the French guidelines and
> >even many French people themselves aren't using our current ones. How are
> >we supposed to get people to use the guidelines when even people who are
> >native speakers aren't even using them? The burden of keeping 5000 and
> >growing albums in order will be on a just few people, that just won't work.
>
> No time for hypocrisy: MB stays organised thanks to the work of a
> handfull of people (most of them are autoeditors), who are constantly
> doing cleanup / documentation work.
> Add-albums (hitting my subscriptions) 90% of the time require 1-10
> more edits before looking good to me. This is not different.

The French rules have been like that for over a year, yet the French
releases in the database are largely not following them. Either not enough
people care about fixing them (which I don't think is really true) or it's
just too much work for the people with the knowledge and will to fix them
to actually do so.

--Nikki

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I think the only things that would have to be fixed are when word
capitalization is used on all the album tracks, because it's really
ugly when it's French. Pure sentence capitalization is always better
than that.

On 7/28/06, Nikki <nikki@...> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 01:10:48PM +0200, Mangled wrote:
> > >But the situation is completely different. Japanese non-standardness is
> > >widely supported by people who listen to Japanese music and they tend to
> > >defend it fiercely. There is no consensus about the French guidelines and
> > >even many French people themselves aren't using our current ones. How are
> > >we supposed to get people to use the guidelines when even people who are
> > >native speakers aren't even using them? The burden of keeping 5000 and
> > >growing albums in order will be on a just few people, that just won't work.
> >
> > No time for hypocrisy: MB stays organised thanks to the work of a
> > handfull of people (most of them are autoeditors), who are constantly
> > doing cleanup / documentation work.
> > Add-albums (hitting my subscriptions) 90% of the time require 1-10
> > more edits before looking good to me. This is not different.
>
> The French rules have been like that for over a year, yet the French
> releases in the database are largely not following them. Either not enough
> people care about fixing them (which I don't think is really true) or it's
> just too much work for the people with the knowledge and will to fix them
> to actually do so.
>
> --Nikki
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

I Agree, It Is Ugly :-D

2006/7/28, pankkake <pankkake@...>:

> I think the only things that would have to be fixed are when word
> capitalization is used on all the album tracks, because it's really
> ugly when it's French. Pure sentence capitalization is always better
> than that.
>
> On 7/28/06, Nikki <nikki@...> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 01:10:48PM +0200, Mangled wrote:
> > > >But the situation is completely different. Japanese non-standardness is
> > > >widely supported by people who listen to Japanese music and they tend to
> > > >defend it fiercely. There is no consensus about the French guidelines and
> > > >even many French people themselves aren't using our current ones. How are
> > > >we supposed to get people to use the guidelines when even people who are
> > > >native speakers aren't even using them? The burden of keeping 5000 and
> > > >growing albums in order will be on a just few people, that just won't work.
> > >
> > > No time for hypocrisy: MB stays organised thanks to the work of a
> > > handfull of people (most of them are autoeditors), who are constantly
> > > doing cleanup / documentation work.
> > > Add-albums (hitting my subscriptions) 90% of the time require 1-10
> > > more edits before looking good to me. This is not different.
> >
> > The French rules have been like that for over a year, yet the French
> > releases in the database are largely not following them. Either not enough
> > people care about fixing them (which I don't think is really true) or it's
> > just too much work for the people with the knowledge and will to fix them
> > to actually do so.
> >
> > --Nikki
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Musicbrainz-style mailing list
> > Musicbrainz-style@...
> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[Olivier-10]

2006/7/28, azertus <azertus@...>:
> I really didn't have the energy for such a long, little bit heated,
> discussion right now.

Yeah, sure, nikki bite me a bit (where's the first aid by the way?),
but it wasn't heated.
Passion, though, is nice in debate, otherwise debates are consensus,
which are pretty boring :D

I sincerely hope everybody took these bits with a joyfull heart.

- Olivier

PS (slightly unrelated): english natives, when you'll be done messing
french :D, what about giving me some clues about the good choices for
(english) jazz titling variants? coz I'm feeling lonely there ;)

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[Olivier-10]

2006/7/28, Nikki <nikki@...>:
> The French rules have been like that for over a year, yet the French
> releases in the database are largely not following them. Either not enough
> people care about fixing them (which I don't think is really true) or it's
> just too much work for the people with the knowledge and will to fix them
> to actually do so.

This sounds like some kind of crazy (not so?) exciting challenge :p

- Olivier

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[Olivier-10]

2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
> Yes, you are right, Beth. See, just 5 minutes and I found a question
> to ask to Olivier :-D
>
> Apart from following the example of La Pléiade, what arguments do you
> bring in favor of the (in)famous exception (which you don't want to
> call an exception, but humor me)? Or would rather, how would you
> explain that MB must enforce this rule? Could we not just say: "both
> ways are acceptable"?

Speaking about bookshelves, which are pretty subjective (and MB is not
about litterature anyway, as it was cleverly pointed out previously
[was it by bogdan?]):
no french publisher right in their mind would *ever* just follow
*sentence case*.
They follow different schemes, true, there is debate (our national
sport), true, there is no consensus (a consensus, in France? is it a
joke? :D), true.

So my main arguments (and as a newcomer in MB I'm taking somewhat a
jazzy responsability in defending these rules I didn't wrote), are:
- flatening all to sentence case is just the *worse* choice, and is
deeply inelegant
- current rules we have, while being *far* from the complex and
controversial typographic rules we are used to in the publishing
industry, still provide us with something reasonnably simple, and
reasonnably close to the (non) consensual way we capitalize titles

As to adress another mail about bookshelves, I gathered a random
selection on my own - Gallimard (when they hire a decent typographer),
Minuit (when they are not on crack), Seuil, Fayard, L'Arche, Folio, Le
Livre de poche, Garnier-Flammarion, L'Esprit des péninsules, and many
other publishers all have titles matching our rules. (and I won't
bother everybody with the full title list, especially because
publishers are internally inconsistent, exact list by mail on demand
:D).



Now, as this was confusing, I'll try to address your question:

> Apart from following the example of La Pléiade,

Trying to have rules looking decent.

> what arguments do you
> bring in favor of the (in)famous exception (which you don't want to
> call an exception, but humor me)?

Simple sentence case really hurt the eyes :D

> Or would rather, how would you
> explain that MB must enforce this rule?

Should ;).
Because MB is about high quality documentation, in every language/circonstance.
How do you actually explain we have so many silly, contradictory
guidelines for each and every stuff, including rules for latin (this
is utterly silly :p)?

> Could we not just say: "both
> ways are acceptable"?

No :)




... Now I give up and join the traitor azertus.

Let's be pragmatic.

I just want to have the extended rules preserved as an option for
these who want to.

Anyhow, as nikki said, that's just the way it is now...


- Olivier

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[bogdanb]

On 7/30/06, Mangled <viapanda@...> wrote:
> So my main arguments (and as a newcomer in MB I'm taking somewhat a
> jazzy responsability in defending these rules I didn't wrote), are:
> - flatening all to sentence case is just the *worse* choice
Absolutely not. We have "ThIs VeRsIoN" too, which I'm sure you'll
agree is worse, and I think I can find others even worse.

> and is deeply inelegant [...] Simple sentence case really hurt the eyes :D
This is very subjective. I think there's elegance in simplicity, and
"The Long Titles like this imaginary one" really hurt my eyes.

> > Or would rather, how would you
> > explain that MB must enforce this rule?
>
> Should ;).
> Because MB is about high quality documentation, in every language/circonstance.
> How do you actually explain we have so many silly, contradictory
> guidelines for each and every stuff, including rules for latin (this
> is utterly silly :p)?
Even agreeing that we have many silly rules (:-/), I don't see how
that's a feature. We have rules that we think are useful (we may be
wrong about some, but we try not to be). This system of rules however
seems to be mostly useful to enforce some aesthetic ideal.

> Let's be pragmatic.
> I just want to have the extended rules preserved as an option for
> these who want to.
> Anyhow, as nikki said, that's just the way it is now...

Since our arguments are mostly based on personal taste (I know it's
hard to admit, it is for me too), I doubt we'll reach a better
agreement than this. But I ask we make this very explicit in the
guideline.

And while we're at it, I do have a question: I'm not clear on what
"phrase verbale" means in  French, I have a feeling it's different
than English. For instance, should we apply the 'exceptions' to a
title that _contains_ a verbal phrase (but not in the initial schema),
or to a sentence? Examples: "The man riding a bicycle", or "The man
rides a bicycle". I've seen examples on Wikipedia that seemed
contradictory.

-- Bogdan Butnaru — bogdanb@...
"I think I am a fallen star, I should wish on myself." – O.

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/7/30, Mangled <viapanda@...>:

> 2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
> > Yes, you are right, Beth. See, just 5 minutes and I found a question
> > to ask to Olivier :-D
> >
> > Apart from following the example of La Pléiade, what arguments do you
> > bring in favor of the (in)famous exception (which you don't want to
> > call an exception, but humor me)? Or would rather, how would you
> > explain that MB must enforce this rule? Could we not just say: "both
> > ways are acceptable"?
>
> Speaking about bookshelves, which are pretty subjective (and MB is not
> about litterature anyway, as it was cleverly pointed out previously
> [was it by bogdan?]):
> no french publisher right in their mind would *ever* just follow
> *sentence case*.
> They follow different schemes, true, there is debate (our national
> sport), true, there is no consensus (a consensus, in France? is it a
> joke? :D), true.
>
> So my main arguments (and as a newcomer in MB I'm taking somewhat a
> jazzy responsability in defending these rules I didn't wrote), are:
> - flatening all to sentence case is just the *worse* choice, and is
> deeply inelegant
> - current rules we have, while being *far* from the complex and
> controversial typographic rules we are used to in the publishing
> industry, still provide us with something reasonnably simple, and
> reasonnably close to the (non) consensual way we capitalize titles
>
> As to adress another mail about bookshelves, I gathered a random
> selection on my own - Gallimard (when they hire a decent typographer),
> Minuit (when they are not on crack), Seuil, Fayard, L'Arche, Folio, Le
> Livre de poche, Garnier-Flammarion, L'Esprit des péninsules, and many
> other publishers all have titles matching our rules. (and I won't
> bother everybody with the full title list, especially because
> publishers are internally inconsistent, exact list by mail on demand
> :D).
>
> Now, as this was confusing, I'll try to address your question:
>
> > Apart from following the example of La Pléiade,
>
> Trying to have rules looking decent.
>
> > what arguments do you
> > bring in favor of the (in)famous exception (which you don't want to
> > call an exception, but humor me)?
>
> Simple sentence case really hurt the eyes :D

Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it "hurts your
eyes". In other words, you are so used to seeing things written that
way that writing it in another way seems wrong to you. Ok I can
understand this, although you will have to grant me that this is
hardly an argument that can appeal to users who don't speak french.
And I find the lack of a rational argument from someone born in the
same country as Descartes... a little disappointing.

> > Or would rather, how would you
> > explain that MB must enforce this rule?
>
> Should ;).
> Because MB is about high quality documentation, in every language/circonstance.
> How do you actually explain we have so many silly, contradictory
> guidelines for each and every stuff, including rules for latin (this
> is utterly silly :p)?
>
> > Could we not just say: "both
> > ways are acceptable"?
>
> No :)
>
> ... Now I give up and join the traitor azertus.
>
> Let's be pragmatic.
>
> I just want to have the extended rules preserved as an option for
> these who want to.
>
> Anyhow, as nikki said, that's just the way it is now...

Ok, those who capitalize thus shouldn't be blamed for it. Fair enough.

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[buz]

Hello everyone,
I didn't read everything as it's far too much so forgive me if I say again things that have been said many times.
I am French so I’m a native French speaker. However, I discovered these "rules" for French titles only when they appeared on the wikidocs. Well, I don't think there are rules in French for titling otherwise you should hear about them at least once during the years you spend at school/university...
The only reason I can find to have such rules is when you want to sort books (or something else) by alphabetical order. You wouldn’t want the 'L' section to be half of the library, if not more. Musicbrainz not being a library (tracks usually have a defined order and albums have a chronological order), these capitalisation rules don't fit here at all. But as always, why make things simple when you can make them complicated?
My proposition: sentence case. that's what every French person would do naturally, except the 0.1% that know those "rules", understand them, and still want to follow them.
By the way, I will never fix an album with correct sentence case capitalisation to match the guidelines, even though I do understand those guidelines, simply because most of the time I find the result so ugly i can't get myself to do it.
To sum up, yes i think those rules are silly, well, at least using them in Musicbrainz.

buz

ps: 0.1% is a totally invented figure. And it still seems quite high to me. I doubt there are that many people in France working in the book industry, the only place that can decently use those rules, (full stop here maybe?) that know about the "rules" given that loads of them tend to forget about spelling and grammar.

[mll]

-checking mails while on holidays-
Hello everyone,

I've read all your contributions. Wow. Does every subject stir such a
volume of mails usually ? :)

Anyway, I've read very interesting thoughts, and frankly, few arguments
in favor of the wiki rules.

Whatever, you know my vote.

See you later (will check mails in a couple of days).

MLL, from the french Alps. :)


Frederic Da Vitoria a écrit :

> Yes, you are right, Beth. See, just 5 minutes and I found a question
> to ask to Olivier :-D
>
> Apart from following the example of La Pléiade, what arguments do you
> bring in favor of the (in)famous exception (which you don't want to
> call an exception, but humor me)? Or would rather, how would you
> explain that MB must enforce this rule? Could we not just say: "both
> ways are acceptable"?
>
> Since we agree there are several rules
>
> 2006/7/28, Beth <imbethers@...>:
>> Oh, I just think you two need to wait for the next wave. ;) <ding
>> ding> back
>> to your corners. :) no, seriously I don't feel I can say anything about
>> this.. I mean, it's you two I always go to for French.. so. :) I
>> probably
>> should've kept out of the whole thing, though I did want to say don't
>> close
>> it so fast, others are certain to respond later, or on the 'morrow.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
>> [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
>> Frederic Da Vitoria
>> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:16 AM
>> To: MusicBrainz style discussion
>> Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization
>> rules)
>>
>> Thanks for the aspirin :-)
>>
>> Frankly; if there is only two of us wishing to change the rules,
>> please spare us the shame of a vote ;-)
>>
>> 2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
>> > Mangled now takes an aspirin and handles one also to davitof :D
>> >
>> > 2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
>> > > 2006/7/28, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
>> > > > > I have much respect for La Pléiade, but I happen to have a
>> few books
>> > > > > from them. I took the first one, Dante's Divine Comedy, and
>> here is
>> > > > > what I found: "Le passeur, Charon" (should have been "Le
>> Passeur,
>> > > > > Charon") and later: "La tempête infernale". So your champions
>> don't
>> > > > > seem to understand the rules. Or the rules are actually more
>> complex.
>> > > >
>> > > > Heyhey :p
>> > > > Yes, they are.
>> > > > And La Pléiade also use different cap depending on where the
>> title is
>> > > > printed (front cover, top of the page).
>> > > > I don't have (Dante) at hand, but I think I remember my
>> "champions"
>> > > > didn't betrayed me with Kafka ;).
>> > > > Anyhow, La Pléiade is just an example amongst others.
>> > > > And as previously stated, it's a known fact there's no consensus
>> > > > (still it's my feeling our current set of rules is decently
>> close to
>> > > > what I think is common practice).
>> > >
>> > > Well, maybe the rules vary depending on the original language? No,
>> > > just joking :-D
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Frederic Da Vitoria
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Musicbrainz-style mailing list
>> > > Musicbrainz-style@...
>> > > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Musicbrainz-style mailing list
>> > Musicbrainz-style@...
>> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Frederic Da Vitoria
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>

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[Gecks]

On 30/07/06, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> wrote:
> Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it "hurts your
> eyes".

well, isn't that the argument for any capitalisation rule? language is
a tricky subject and i doubt any has a nice set of rules agreed upon
by all who speak it. certainly not a lot of english people capilise
properly, but there is a (largely) recognised way of doing it, if you
care.

> In other words, you are so used to seeing things written that
> way that writing it in another way seems wrong to you. Ok I can
> understand this, although you will have to grant me that this is
> hardly an argument that can appeal to users who don't speak french.

we had the same problem at discogs.com - currently, Ever First Letter
Must Be Capitilised, which is great in that everyone can easily follow
it, but crap in that it just looks wrong to me (i'm English) - i mean
totally wrong! so i can entirely sympathise with Mangled here.

the way I see it, the rules should be such that those who know the
language are able to capitilise 'correctly', no matter how complex
those rules may be. however it should be anticipated that others will
just capitilise as they see fit, but they certainly shouldn't
're-crapify' the text once it's been fixed by someone with The
Knowledge. personally i don't think there's anything wrong with this,
and if you think about it, that's pretty much the entire MBz process
summed up :)

i mean, ultimately it would be easiest if WE JUST TYPED EVERYTHING IN
UPPERCASE but that's not ideal, is it?

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