[mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/7/31, Chris Bransden <chris@...>:

> On 30/07/06, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> wrote:
> > Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it "hurts your
> > eyes".
>
> well, isn't that the argument for any capitalisation rule? language is
> a tricky subject and i doubt any has a nice set of rules agreed upon
> by all who speak it. certainly not a lot of english people capilise
> properly, but there is a (largely) recognised way of doing it, if you
> care.
>
> > In other words, you are so used to seeing things written that
> > way that writing it in another way seems wrong to you. Ok I can
> > understand this, although you will have to grant me that this is
> > hardly an argument that can appeal to users who don't speak french.
>
> we had the same problem at discogs.com - currently, Ever First Letter
> Must Be Capitilised, which is great in that everyone can easily follow
> it, but crap in that it just looks wrong to me (i'm English) - i mean
> totally wrong! so i can entirely sympathise with Mangled here.
>
> the way I see it, the rules should be such that those who know the
> language are able to capitilise 'correctly', no matter how complex
> those rules may be. however it should be anticipated that others will
> just capitilise as they see fit, but they certainly shouldn't
> 're-crapify' the text once it's been fixed by someone with The
> Knowledge. personally i don't think there's anything wrong with this,
> and if you think about it, that's pretty much the entire MBz process
> summed up :)
>
> i mean, ultimately it would be easiest if WE JUST TYPED EVERYTHING IN
> UPPERCASE but that's not ideal, is it?

Good point :-)

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[bogdanb]

On 7/31/06, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> wrote:

> 2006/7/31, Chris Bransden <chris@...>:
> > On 30/07/06, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> wrote:
> > > Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it "hurts your
> > > eyes".
> >
> > well, isn't that the argument for any capitalisation rule? language is
> > a tricky subject and i doubt any has a nice set of rules agreed upon
> > by all who speak it.  [...]
> > the way I see it, the rules should be such that those who know the
> > language are able to capitilise 'correctly', no matter how complex
> > those rules may be. Personally i don't think there's anything wrong with this,
> > and if you think about it, that's pretty much the entire MBz process
> > summed up :)
> >
> > i mean, ultimately it would be easiest if WE JUST TYPED EVERYTHING IN
> > UPPERCASE but that's not ideal, is it?
>
> Good point :-)

Not really. First, it would be easier to type everything in lowercase
(no pesky shift or caps lock). Second, it's easiest to just type
everything the way you want.

Third, "the rules should be such that those who know the language are
able to capitalise correctly" does not define "correctly". In English
there is a _widely_ accepted standard for what "correct
capitalization" means, while in French there isn't. There are some
"main currents of thought", and we need to choose one of them.

None of the points apply to this choice, in my opinion. I mean, I
wouldn't have anything against rules that say "you should only
capitalize attributes of nouns in the genitive case, and only if they
are of Latin etymology, except if they are the last word in the title"
(which is ridiculous, but I have seen orthography and even
capitalization rules containing most of those criteria), _if_ that was
the _correct_ way of capitalizing song and album titles in the
respective language. In French there just is no set of rules about
capitalization that can be simply considered correct.

-- Bogdan Butnaru — bogdanb@...
"I think I am a fallen star, I should wish on myself." – O.

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[bogdanb]

On 7/31/06, Ludovic d'Anchald <webmll@...> wrote:
> -checking mails while on holidays-
> I've read all your contributions. Wow. Does every subject stir such a
> volume of mails usually ? :)

Not every, but often :)

-- Bogdan Butnaru — bogdanb@...
"I think I am a fallen star, I should wish on myself." – O.

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[Nikki-12]

On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 04:08:14PM +0100, Chris Bransden wrote:
> we had the same problem at discogs.com - currently, Ever First Letter
> Must Be Capitilised, which is great in that everyone can easily follow
> it, but crap in that it just looks wrong to me (i'm English) - i mean
> totally wrong! so i can entirely sympathise with Mangled here.

and yet it looks fine to me, for English. :)

> the way I see it, the rules should be such that those who know the
> language are able to capitilise 'correctly', no matter how complex those
> rules may be. however it should be anticipated that others will just
> capitilise as they see fit, but they certainly shouldn't 're-crapify' the
> text once it's been fixed by someone with The Knowledge. personally i
> don't think there's anything wrong with this, and if you think about it,
> that's pretty much the entire MBz process summed up :)

Well, of course. The argument here is that there are two ways of doing it.
People entering data in MusicBrainz largely use one style (excluding the
completely wrong English-style ones) and the wiki has the other style.

I don't think either are *wrong*, they're both accepted. However, I still
don't see the benefit of choosing the one that the majority of people don't
use, other than that it won't hurt panda's eyes.

--Nikki

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[Gecks]

On 31/07/06, Bogdan Butnaru <bogdanb@...> wrote:

> On 7/31/06, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> wrote:
> > 2006/7/31, Chris Bransden <chris@...>:
> > > On 30/07/06, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> wrote:
> > > > Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it "hurts your
> > > > eyes".
> > >
> > > well, isn't that the argument for any capitalisation rule? language is
> > > a tricky subject and i doubt any has a nice set of rules agreed upon
> > > by all who speak it.  [...]
> > > the way I see it, the rules should be such that those who know the
> > > language are able to capitilise 'correctly', no matter how complex
> > > those rules may be. Personally i don't think there's anything wrong with this,
> > > and if you think about it, that's pretty much the entire MBz process
> > > summed up :)
> > >
> > > i mean, ultimately it would be easiest if WE JUST TYPED EVERYTHING IN
> > > UPPERCASE but that's not ideal, is it?
> >
> > Good point :-)
>
> Not really. First, it would be easier to type everything in lowercase
> (no pesky shift or caps lock). Second, it's easiest to just type
> everything the way you want.

well i think that is still essentially my point (that no/simple rules
are the 'easiest' rules), but anyway...

> Third, "the rules should be such that those who know the language are
> able to capitalise correctly" does not define "correctly". In English
> there is a _widely_ accepted standard for what "correct
> capitalization" means,

i'd strongly contest that! there's many - see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization

if anything, sentence case is more popular these days, for english.
not that i'd argue for us to change to that, mind, but it completely
comes down to personal preference.

> while in French there isn't. There are some
> "main currents of thought", and we need to choose one of them.

exactly the same as english, then :)

> None of the points apply to this choice, in my opinion. I mean, I
> wouldn't have anything against rules that say "you should only
> capitalize attributes of nouns in the genitive case, and only if they
> are of Latin etymology, except if they are the last word in the title"
> (which is ridiculous, but I have seen orthography and even
> capitalization rules containing most of those criteria), _if_ that was
> the _correct_ way of capitalizing song and album titles in the
> respective language. In French there just is no set of rules about
> capitalization that can be simply considered correct.

right, so i think the fairest way to choose would be a vote, but i
would say that:
- only native/v good french speakers should vote (it's impossible to
say what looks best if you aren't either)
- their vote should be on the aesthetic quality of the capitilsation,
not the ease of application (as before, keeping it simple is easy, but
if it looks crap then whats the point?)
such a vote would be difficult to implement, though. i'd hope the
discussion reaches a conclusion instead :)

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[Gecks]

On 31/07/06, Nikki <nikki@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 04:08:14PM +0100, Chris Bransden wrote:
> > we had the same problem at discogs.com - currently, Ever First Letter
> > Must Be Capitilised, which is great in that everyone can easily follow
> > it, but crap in that it just looks wrong to me (i'm English) - i mean
> > totally wrong! so i can entirely sympathise with Mangled here.
>
> and yet it looks fine to me, for English. :)

weirdo :P but yes there are many english people who feel the same. i'm
just glad the decision went my way here :)

> > the way I see it, the rules should be such that those who know the
> > language are able to capitilise 'correctly', no matter how complex those
> > rules may be. however it should be anticipated that others will just
> > capitilise as they see fit, but they certainly shouldn't 're-crapify' the
> > text once it's been fixed by someone with The Knowledge. personally i
> > don't think there's anything wrong with this, and if you think about it,
> > that's pretty much the entire MBz process summed up :)
>
> Well, of course. The argument here is that there are two ways of doing it.
> People entering data in MusicBrainz largely use one style (excluding the
> completely wrong English-style ones) and the wiki has the other style.
>
> I don't think either are *wrong*, they're both accepted. However, I still
> don't see the benefit of choosing the one that the majority of people don't
> use, other than that it won't hurt panda's eyes.

well, the majority of people seem to do the wrong thing in a lot of
other areas, else i wouldn't have to look through my subscribed
artists every day :) if people do the wrong thing that's fine, but
then i think there should be style guide support for native french
speakers to put it into the most aesthetically pleasing format.

personally i doubt that people really put much thought into the
capitlisation of titles when entering them into here of freedb or
wherever - mostly it's just about speed, so i wouldn't neccesarily
take the format that the majority are in to be an indication of real
preference.

eg, i never knew english capitilsation fully until i started using
MBz, but my own format was near identical anyway, so i liked it :)

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[bogdanb]

On 8/1/06, Chris Bransden <chris@...> wrote:
> On 31/07/06, Bogdan Butnaru <bogdanb@...> wrote:
> > Third, "the rules should be such that those who know the language are
> > able to capitalise correctly" does not define "correctly". In English
> > there is a _widely_ accepted standard for what "correct
> > capitalization" means,
>
> i'd strongly contest that! there's many - see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization

You didn't read that page carefully enough. It enumerates
capitalization rules in general (like "I" or "February" should always
be capitalized). Also, it has a special section that enumerates
"conventions [...] used for capitalizing words in publication titles
and headlines, including chapter and section headings". It doesn't say
anything about song titles. There is exactly one reference to song
titles, an external link at the bottom of the page. (It doesn't seem
very authoritative, but as it happens, it has about the same rules as
we have.)

Incidentally, songs in the English Wikipedia seem to use guidelines
like ours, though I can't find the guidelines that say that
specifically.

> if anything, sentence case is more popular these days, for english.
> not that i'd argue for us to change to that, mind, but it completely
> comes down to personal preference.

I really didn't notice that :)

> right, so i think the fairest way to choose would be a vote.
> - only native/v good french speakers should vote (it's impossible to
> say what looks best if you aren't either)
No, it's not :)

> - their vote should be on the aesthetic quality of the capitilsation,
> not the ease of application (as before, keeping it simple is easy, but
> if it looks crap then whats the point?)

Nothing prevents us from a trade-off. Remember, we do use the "standard" way
of English capitalization, _with simplifications_, and the
simplifications were chosen
specifically to make automatic capitalization possible.

I don't really contradict my previous argument: there is a standard
way of capitalizing English (everything capitalized, except
unimportant words), but there is indeed a lot of variation with
specific details (what are unimportant words: closed class,
prepositions, articles, etc.), and we chose among them one that's easy
to automatize.

In a way, we could say the same thing about French: the standard way
is "capitalize only initial words", with a lot of variation about what
are initial words. We should chose the one that's easiest to
automatize, i.e. just the first one.

Note that proper nouns (names) can't really be automatically
capitalized. We could make a big fat list of names, but that wouldn't
cover all cases, no matter how much we try. (In particular because
there are names that are also simple nouns.)

-- Bogdan Butnaru — bogdanb@...
"I think I am a fallen star, I should wish on myself." – O.

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[Gecks]

On 01/08/06, Bogdan Butnaru <bogdanb@...> wrote:

> On 8/1/06, Chris Bransden <chris@...> wrote:
> > On 31/07/06, Bogdan Butnaru <bogdanb@...> wrote:
> > > Third, "the rules should be such that those who know the language are
> > > able to capitalise correctly" does not define "correctly". In English
> > > there is a _widely_ accepted standard for what "correct
> > > capitalization" means,
> >
> > i'd strongly contest that! there's many - see
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization
>
> You didn't read that page carefully enough

au contraire!

> It enumerates
> capitalization rules in general (like "I" or "February" should always
> be capitalized). Also, it has a special section that enumerates
> "conventions [...] used for capitalizing words in publication titles
> and headlines, including chapter and section headings". It doesn't say
> anything about song titles. There is exactly one reference to song
> titles, an external link at the bottom of the page. (It doesn't seem
> very authoritative, but as it happens, it has about the same rules as
> we have.)

exactly! publication titles is essentially the same thing (a song
title is no different from a chapter title, really), and there is no
'standard' beyond the basic general rules for writing (but that's
different from capitalising - ie changing a sentence/phrase into a
heading/title). there is no single standard for capitalising in
english.

> > if anything, sentence case is more popular these days, for english.
> > not that i'd argue for us to change to that, mind, but it completely
> > comes down to personal preference.
>
> I really didn't notice that :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/ is one notable user of sentence case, if anyone cares.

> > right, so i think the fairest way to choose would be a vote.
> > - only native/v good french speakers should vote (it's impossible to
> > say what looks best if you aren't either)
> No, it's not :)

in my experience most people just use what would look good in their
own language, which i don't think helps.

> > - their vote should be on the aesthetic quality of the capitilsation,
> > not the ease of application (as before, keeping it simple is easy, but
> > if it looks crap then whats the point?)
>
> Nothing prevents us from a trade-off. Remember, we do use the "standard" way
> of English capitalization, _with simplifications_, and the
> simplifications were chosen
> specifically to make automatic capitalization possible.
>
> I don't really contradict my previous argument: there is a standard
> way of capitalizing English (everything capitalized, except
> unimportant words), but there is indeed a lot of variation with
> specific details (what are unimportant words: closed class,
> prepositions, articles, etc.), and we chose among them one that's easy
> to automatize.

well i guess i completely disagree! like i said, if anything sentence
case is the standard (and i believe there's some kind of push for it
to be recognised as such, although obviously there's no official
language group or anything like that to do such a thing, just
busybodies :P).

> In a way, we could say the same thing about French: the standard way
> is "capitalize only initial words", with a lot of variation about what
> are initial words. We should chose the one that's easiest to
> automatize, i.e. just the first one.

i find the argument as to which is most aesthitically desirable to be
much stronger. but if there were 2 competing standards with equal
support, and one was automatable and the other wasn't, then yeah it
could be the clincher, but only if the initial support for the
standards was based on aesthetic quality alone, IMO.

ultimately there are a lot of things in MBz which aren't
automated/automatable - that's why we are here, no?

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[Nikki-12]

On Tue, Aug 01, 2006 at 12:30:02AM +0100, Chris Bransden wrote:
> well, the majority of people seem to do the wrong thing in a lot of other
> areas, else i wouldn't have to look through my subscribed artists every
> day :) if people do the wrong thing that's fine, but then i think there
> should be style guide support for native french speakers to put it into
> the most aesthetically pleasing format.

Firstly, my point is that I *never* see anyone, other than panda and
azertus use the current style. It would be like applying German rules to
English (i.e. capitalise just the nouns), people just don't do that.
Whenever I look through the new add release edits, about half are using
sentence case (and the rest are either English style or just plain
strange). I've even seen French people changing titles considered correct
by our current rules back to sentence case.

Secondly, the one which is considered more aesthetically pleasing won't
work. Some French speakers say the current rules, others say sentence case.
If all the French speakers had the same opinion, we wouldn't be having this
discussion.

> personally i doubt that people really put much thought into the
> capitlisation of titles when entering them into here of freedb or
> wherever - mostly it's just about speed, so i wouldn't neccesarily take
> the format that the majority are in to be an indication of real
> preference.

I'm not taking it as real preference (as I know that some people prefer
sentence case and others prefer the current rules), but trying to minimise
the work required to fix them. Given that Guess Case can't handle French
titles, each release's capitalisation has to be fixed manually. That's a
lot of work when practically every new add release uses some other style of
capitalisation.

--Nikki

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/8/1, Chris Bransden <chris@...>:

> On 31/07/06, Bogdan Butnaru <bogdanb@...> wrote:
> > On 7/31/06, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> wrote:
> > > 2006/7/31, Chris Bransden <chris@...>:
> > > > On 30/07/06, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...> wrote:
> > > > > Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it "hurts your
> > > > > eyes".
> > > >
> > > > well, isn't that the argument for any capitalisation rule? language is
> > > > a tricky subject and i doubt any has a nice set of rules agreed upon
> > > > by all who speak it.  [...]
> > > > the way I see it, the rules should be such that those who know the
> > > > language are able to capitilise 'correctly', no matter how complex
> > > > those rules may be. Personally i don't think there's anything wrong with this,
> > > > and if you think about it, that's pretty much the entire MBz process
> > > > summed up :)
> > > >
> > > > i mean, ultimately it would be easiest if WE JUST TYPED EVERYTHING IN
> > > > UPPERCASE but that's not ideal, is it?
> > >
> > > Good point :-)
> >
> > Not really. First, it would be easier to type everything in lowercase
> > (no pesky shift or caps lock). Second, it's easiest to just type
> > everything the way you want.
>
> well i think that is still essentially my point (that no/simple rules
> are the 'easiest' rules), but anyway...
>
> > Third, "the rules should be such that those who know the language are
> > able to capitalise correctly" does not define "correctly". In English
> > there is a _widely_ accepted standard for what "correct
> > capitalization" means,
>
> i'd strongly contest that! there's many - see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalization
>
> if anything, sentence case is more popular these days, for english.
> not that i'd argue for us to change to that, mind, but it completely
> comes down to personal preference.
>
> > while in French there isn't. There are some
> > "main currents of thought", and we need to choose one of them.
>
> exactly the same as english, then :)
>
> > None of the points apply to this choice, in my opinion. I mean, I
> > wouldn't have anything against rules that say "you should only
> > capitalize attributes of nouns in the genitive case, and only if they
> > are of Latin etymology, except if they are the last word in the title"
> > (which is ridiculous, but I have seen orthography and even
> > capitalization rules containing most of those criteria), _if_ that was
> > the _correct_ way of capitalizing song and album titles in the
> > respective language. In French there just is no set of rules about
> > capitalization that can be simply considered correct.
>
> right, so i think the fairest way to choose would be a vote, but i
> would say that:
> - only native/v good french speakers should vote (it's impossible to
> say what looks best if you aren't either)
> - their vote should be on the aesthetic quality of the capitilsation,
> not the ease of application (as before, keeping it simple is easy, but
> if it looks crap then whats the point?)
> such a vote would be difficult to implement, though. i'd hope the
> discussion reaches a conclusion instead :)

I disagree. And I am French :-) I'd gladly take into account the votes
of non-natives. And I do think ease of use should be taken into
account (although I agree it should be only one component of the final
decision, not the only one). Remember, difficult rules mean
inconsistent data in MB. I know, Olivier did propose to correct
entries. I didn't and I won't. I would try to comply, but I will
definitely not correct the entries of others. And no other french MB
user did offer the same thing. So maybe Olivier will end up the only
user maintaining consistency here. Portuguese is an example of a
language which has chosen at one point to simplify a few (spelling,
not capitalization) important rules. There have been a few decisions
to make french spelling easier (although I am not sure these decisions
were always justified), which means that even French people feel
something should be done about french complexity.

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[Olivier-10]

Unfortunately as I said, I'm a bit off these days. So a few lagging answers.

2006/7/30, Bogdan Butnaru <bogdanb@...>:
> On 7/30/06, Mangled <viapanda@...> wrote:
> > So my main arguments (and as a newcomer in MB I'm taking somewhat a
> > jazzy responsability in defending these rules I didn't wrote), are:
> > - flatening all to sentence case is just the *worse* choice
> Absolutely not. We have "ThIs VeRsIoN" too, which I'm sure you'll
> agree is worse, and I think I can find others even worse.

Right.
I just excluded thAt VeRSioN from my thoughts, and was speaking only
about the alternatives with some meaning. :)

> "The Long Titles like this imaginary one" really hurt my eyes.

Yes, but I don't think your eyes would like *more complex* cap rules either :P

> Even agreeing that we have many silly rules (:-/), I don't see how
> that's a feature. We have rules that we think are useful (we may be
> wrong about some, but we try not to be). This system of rules however
> seems to be mostly useful to enforce some aesthetic ideal.

I must agree :).

> Since our arguments are mostly based on personal taste (I know it's
> hard to admit, it is for me too), I doubt we'll reach a better
> agreement than this. But I ask we make this very explicit in the
> guideline.

I'm not such a nasty person :) If most people feels "sentence case",
I'll bow myself to it (yeah, I'll scream a bit at first).

>
> And while we're at it, I do have a question: I'm not clear on what
> "phrase verbale" means in  French, I have a feeling it's different
> than English.

I think english and french has the same conception.

Forgive the rough english on my side, though.

A verbal phrase is a phrase organized around one or more verbs; such a
phrase has two fundamental components, a subject and a predicate (?)
(prédicat).
A sentence with a subordinate proposition containing a verb of course
doesn't qualify as a verbal phrase.

> For instance, should we apply the 'exceptions' to a
> title that _contains_ a verbal phrase (but not in the initial schema),
> or to a sentence? Examples: "The man riding a bicycle", or "The man
> rides a bicycle". I've seen examples on Wikipedia that seemed
> contradictory.

Ok. We are diving into grammar and linguistic I guess.
Please ask again if I'm not clear, as I reach my english incompetence point.
And I feel much better with french examples, if you don't mind.

"L'homme murmurait à l'oreille des chevaux" is clearly a verbal phrase
(subject, predicate).
"L'Homme qui murmurait à l'oreille des chevaux" is not.
The principal proposition is not organized around a verb (it contains
a subordinate, though, but that doesn't make it a verbal phrase)


Regards

- Olivier

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[Olivier-10]

2006/7/30, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
>
> Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it "hurts your
> eyes". In other words, you are so used to seeing things written that
> way that writing it in another way seems wrong to you. Ok I can
> understand this, although you will have to grant me that this is
> hardly an argument that can appeal to users who don't speak french.
> And I find the lack of a rational argument from someone born in the
> same country as Descartes... a little disappointing.

You gather wrong.
And ad hominem blows doesn't help your argument.

I'm responsible for your confusion as I thought you knew what we were
talking about, and incorrectly thought a bit humor would help.

Back to serious, so:
(a) there *are* typographic *conventions* used in the *publishing
industry* specifying how to capitalize titles
(b) while these conventions are not a *consensus*, and while
publishers (eg: typographers working for publishers) tend to each
prefer their own way to capitalize, I don't recall *anybody* in the
industry *seriously* thinking about sentence mode capitalization as
the way to go
(c) we are no longer (at least since 50 messages) talking about what
is the proper way to capitalize titles in french, and I don't think
there's a point arguing about this (as nobody here is qualified to
decide about that)
(d) what we are talking about is:
(i) should MB try to follow common typographic usage, as used for
books? Or should it not, as MB is not about litterature (argument by
bogdan)
(ii) if MB is to follow/choose a *decent* (decent according to *french
typographic conventions*) capitalization method, is it even
manageable? (argument by nikki)

I do think our current set of rules is decent (while IMO *not*
complicated *enough*, and not close enough to *my* preference, and
still sometimes hurting my eyes - as an example, we should made
exceptions for titles built around a symetrical scheme, as in "Le Bon,
la Brute et le Truand", but I'm sure everybody will scream "too
complex!!!").

I don't think we should try to enforce something nobody would understand.

I'm disturb by french moderators who perfectly understand rules,
*deliberately* ignoring them.

I myself will accept any rules reaching a pragmatic consensus, and follow them.
Even (and I think it's pretty clear now) if we simply drop proper
french capitalization (yes, even if our set of rules was just an
*attempt* at proper capitalization).



- Olivier

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/8/3, Mangled <viapanda@...>:

> 2006/7/30, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
> >
> > Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it "hurts your
> > eyes". In other words, you are so used to seeing things written that
> > way that writing it in another way seems wrong to you. Ok I can
> > understand this, although you will have to grant me that this is
> > hardly an argument that can appeal to users who don't speak french.
> > And I find the lack of a rational argument from someone born in the
> > same country as Descartes... a little disappointing.
>
> You gather wrong.
> And ad hominem blows doesn't help your argument.
>
> I'm responsible for your confusion as I thought you knew what we were
> talking about, and incorrectly thought a bit humor would help.

I often wonder at how difficult it is to discuss when both
participants have the same mother language (French) but use another
language (English) to discuss.

> Back to serious, so:
> (a) there *are* typographic *conventions* used in the *publishing
> industry* specifying how to capitalize titles
> (b) while these conventions are not a *consensus*, and while
> publishers (eg: typographers working for publishers) tend to each
> prefer their own way to capitalize, I don't recall *anybody* in the
> industry *seriously* thinking about sentence mode capitalization as
> the way to go
> (c) we are no longer (at least since 50 messages) talking about what
> is the proper way to capitalize titles in french, and I don't think
> there's a point arguing about this (as nobody here is qualified to
> decide about that)
> (d) what we are talking about is:
> (i) should MB try to follow common typographic usage, as used for
> books? Or should it not, as MB is not about litterature (argument by
> bogdan)
> (ii) if MB is to follow/choose a *decent* (decent according to *french
> typographic conventions*) capitalization method, is it even
> manageable? (argument by nikki)
>
> I do think our current set of rules is decent (while IMO *not*
> complicated *enough*, and not close enough to *my* preference, and
> still sometimes hurting my eyes - as an example, we should made
> exceptions for titles built around a symetrical scheme, as in "Le Bon,
> la Brute et le Truand", but I'm sure everybody will scream "too
> complex!!!").

I'd prefer this to the current rules. It does make sense and it may
even be scriptable. Actually, "Le Bon, la brute et le truand" was my
main objection to the current rules. And it seems I was not the only
one.


> I don't think we should try to enforce something nobody would understand.
>
> I'm disturb by french moderators who perfectly understand rules,
> *deliberately* ignoring them.
>
> I myself will accept any rules reaching a pragmatic consensus, and follow them.
> Even (and I think it's pretty clear now) if we simply drop proper
> french capitalization (yes, even if our set of rules was just an
> *attempt* at proper capitalization).

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[Olivier-10]

2006/8/3, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
>
> I often wonder at how difficult it is to discuss when both
> participants have the same mother language (French) but use another
> language (English) to discuss.

Somewhere between "moderatly difficult" and "rather difficult" :p
Fortunately, you were clever enough to avoid flaming me while my
answer to your (not so friendly previous) message wasn't really kind
:p
Forgive me that last one, would you? T'was definitely too hot in Paris
these days...

> > I do think our current set of rules is decent (while IMO *not*
> > complicated *enough*, and not close enough to *my* preference, and
> > still sometimes hurting my eyes - as an example, we should made
> > exceptions for titles built around a symetrical scheme, as in "Le Bon,
> > la Brute et le Truand", but I'm sure everybody will scream "too
> > complex!!!").
>
> I'd prefer this to the current rules. It does make sense and it may
> even be scriptable. Actually, "Le Bon, la brute et le truand" was my
> main objection to the current rules. And it seems I was not the only
> one.

Definitely, and IMO this is the sane choice for typographers.
Although, I don't think this is scriptable, and I'm sure non natives
will object to it (with reason) as it introduces way more complexity.

Now, I really want something to come out of all this, and I really
want a consensus to the satisfaction of everybody (err... most-body
:p).

Can we start with reaching a consensus out of these two questions:

> > (i) should MB try to follow common typographic usage, as used for
> > books? Or should it not, as MB is not about litterature (argument by
> > bogdan)
> > (ii) if MB is to follow/choose a *decent* (decent according to *french
> > typographic conventions*) capitalization method, is it even
> > manageable? (argument by nikki)
> >

Then we may move to a rehaul of the current cap rules (and
discussion), if needed?

Regards,

- Olivier

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[Olivier-10]

And I still don't know if french is silly, but I know frenchs are -
from my own humble confession :p

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/8/7, Mangled <viapanda@...>:

> 2006/8/3, Frederic Da Vitoria <davitofrg@...>:
> >
> > I often wonder at how difficult it is to discuss when both
> > participants have the same mother language (French) but use another
> > language (English) to discuss.
>
> Somewhere between "moderatly difficult" and "rather difficult" :p
> Fortunately, you were clever enough to avoid flaming me while my
> answer to your (not so friendly previous) message wasn't really kind
> :p
> Forgive me that last one, would you? T'was definitely too hot in Paris
> these days...

No problem. I was wondering what got to you in my mail :-)

> > > I do think our current set of rules is decent (while IMO *not*
> > > complicated *enough*, and not close enough to *my* preference, and
> > > still sometimes hurting my eyes - as an example, we should made
> > > exceptions for titles built around a symetrical scheme, as in "Le Bon,
> > > la Brute et le Truand", but I'm sure everybody will scream "too
> > > complex!!!").
> >
> > I'd prefer this to the current rules. It does make sense and it may
> > even be scriptable. Actually, "Le Bon, la brute et le truand" was my
> > main objection to the current rules. And it seems I was not the only
> > one.
>
> Definitely, and IMO this is the sane choice for typographers.
> Although, I don't think this is scriptable, and I'm sure non natives
> will object to it (with reason) as it introduces way more complexity.
>
> Now, I really want something to come out of all this, and I really
> want a consensus to the satisfaction of everybody (err... most-body
> :p).
>
> Can we start with reaching a consensus out of these two questions:
>
> > > (i) should MB try to follow common typographic usage, as used for
> > > books? Or should it not, as MB is not about litterature (argument by
> > > bogdan)
> > > (ii) if MB is to follow/choose a *decent* (decent according to *french
> > > typographic conventions*) capitalization method, is it even
> > > manageable? (argument by nikki)
> > >
>
> Then we may move to a rehaul of the current cap rules (and
> discussion), if needed?

OK. Apart from the rule above which I still can't understand (but we
obviously agree on this), I don't have real objections. Definite
article must be followed by upper case: OK, I don't exactly love it,
but if some users actually like this one, why not. It seems not too
difficult to explain even to users who barely understand french.

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/8/7, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> And I still don't know if french is silly, but I know frenchs are -
> from my own humble confession :p

I wouldn't be the one to throw you the stone (not sure if this is the
right translation to English :-/). And I have a hunch this is not
specific to French :-)

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[mll]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Frederic Da Vitoria
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:50 PM
> To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
> capitalization rules)
>
> 2006/8/7, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> > And I still don't know if french is silly, but I know frenchs are -
> > from my own humble confession :p
>
> I wouldn't be the one to throw you the stone (not sure if
> this is the right translation to English :-/). And I have a
> hunch this is not specific to French :-)

Yet we do love to make simple things complicated.


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[mll]

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Mangled
> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 9:59 PM
> To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
> capitalization rules)
>
> Can we start with reaching a consensus out of these two questions:
>
> > > (i) should MB try to follow common typographic usage, as used for
> > > books? Or should it not, as MB is not about litterature
> (argument by
> > > bogdan)
> > > (ii) if MB is to follow/choose a *decent* (decent according to
> > > *french typographic conventions*) capitalization method,
> is it even
> > > manageable? (argument by nikki)
> > >

Objection, your Honor (should the h be in caps ? :P ). In the real world,
there is no common typographic usage, as discussed before. So the proposal
is biased.

MLL

>
> Then we may move to a rehaul of the current cap rules (and
> discussion), if needed?
>
> Regards,
>
> - Olivier
>
> _______________________________________________
> Musicbrainz-style mailing list
> Musicbrainz-style@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>

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[Olivier-10]

2006/8/8, MLL <webmll@...>:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> > [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On
> > Behalf Of Mangled
> > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 9:59 PM
> > To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> > Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
> > capitalization rules)
> >
> > Can we start with reaching a consensus out of these two questions:
> >
> > > > (i) should MB try to follow common typographic usage, as used for
> > > > books? Or should it not, as MB is not about litterature
> > (argument by
> > > > bogdan)
> > > > (ii) if MB is to follow/choose a *decent* (decent according to
> > > > *french typographic conventions*) capitalization method,
> > is it even
> > > > manageable? (argument by nikki)
> > > >
>
> Objection, your Honor (should the h be in caps ? :P ). In the real world,
> there is no common typographic usage, as discussed before. So the proposal
> is biased.
>

Please, don't honor your french nationality by complicating this more.
Copying the mail from the 3rd:

"(a) there *are* typographic *conventions* used in the *publishing
industry* specifying how to capitalize titles
(b) while these conventions are not a *consensus*, and while
publishers (eg: typographers working for publishers) tend to each
prefer their own way to capitalize, I don't recall *anybody* in the
industry *seriously* thinking about sentence mode capitalization as
the way to go
(c) we are no longer (at least since 50 messages) talking about what
is the proper way to capitalize titles in french, and I don't think
there's a point arguing about this (as nobody here is qualified to
decide about that)"

Now, can we move ahead and needle these two questions (i) and (ii)? :P

Regards,

- Olivier

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