[mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)

[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/8/8, Mangled <viapanda@...>:

> 2006/8/8, MLL <webmll@...>:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> > > [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On
> > > Behalf Of Mangled
> > > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 9:59 PM
> > > To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> > > Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
> > > capitalization rules)
> > >
> > > Can we start with reaching a consensus out of these two questions:
> > >
> > > > > (i) should MB try to follow common typographic usage, as used for
> > > > > books? Or should it not, as MB is not about litterature
> > > (argument by
> > > > > bogdan)
> > > > > (ii) if MB is to follow/choose a *decent* (decent according to
> > > > > *french typographic conventions*) capitalization method,
> > > is it even
> > > > > manageable? (argument by nikki)
> > > > >
> >
> > Objection, your Honor (should the h be in caps ? :P ). In the real world,
> > there is no common typographic usage, as discussed before. So the proposal
> > is biased.
> >
>
> Please, don't honor your french nationality by complicating this more.
> Copying the mail from the 3rd:
>
> "(a) there *are* typographic *conventions* used in the *publishing
> industry* specifying how to capitalize titles
> (b) while these conventions are not a *consensus*, and while
> publishers (eg: typographers working for publishers) tend to each
> prefer their own way to capitalize, I don't recall *anybody* in the
> industry *seriously* thinking about sentence mode capitalization as
> the way to go
> (c) we are no longer (at least since 50 messages) talking about what
> is the proper way to capitalize titles in french, and I don't think
> there's a point arguing about this (as nobody here is qualified to
> decide about that)"
>
> Now, can we move ahead and needle these two questions (i) and (ii)? :P
>
> Regards,
>
> - Olivier

I agree. I guess you will have to decide without me, though. I am
about to leave on holidays :-)

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[mll]

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Frederic Da Vitoria
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 8:38 PM
> To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
> capitalization rules)
>
> 2006/8/8, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> > 2006/8/8, MLL <webmll@...>:
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> > > >
> [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On Behalf
> > > > Of Mangled
> > > > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 9:59 PM
> > > > To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> > > > Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
> capitalization
> > > > rules)
> > > >
> > > > Can we start with reaching a consensus out of these two
> questions:
> > > >
> > > > > > (i) should MB try to follow common typographic
> usage, as used
> > > > > > for books? Or should it not, as MB is not about litterature
> > > > (argument by
> > > > > > bogdan)
> > > > > > (ii) if MB is to follow/choose a *decent* (decent
> according to
> > > > > > *french typographic conventions*) capitalization method,
> > > > is it even
> > > > > > manageable? (argument by nikki)
> > > > > >
> > >
> > > Objection, your Honor (should the h be in caps ? :P ). In
> the real
> > > world, there is no common typographic usage, as discussed
> before. So
> > > the proposal is biased.
> > >
> >
> > Please, don't honor your french nationality by complicating
> this more.
> > Copying the mail from the 3rd:
> >
> > "(a) there *are* typographic *conventions* used in the *publishing
> > industry* specifying how to capitalize titles
> > (b) while these conventions are not a *consensus*, and while
> > publishers (eg: typographers working for publishers) tend to each
> > prefer their own way to capitalize, I don't recall *anybody* in the
> > industry *seriously* thinking about sentence mode capitalization as
> > the way to go
> > (c) we are no longer (at least since 50 messages) talking
> about what
> > is the proper way to capitalize titles in french, and I don't think
> > there's a point arguing about this (as nobody here is qualified to
> > decide about that)"
> >
> > Now, can we move ahead and needle these two questions (i)
> and (ii)? :P
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > - Olivier
>
> I agree. I guess you will have to decide without me, though.
> I am about to leave on holidays :-)

I still don't agree, sorry. I didn't react at the time, but I said on July
27th:

"- as WP says (read header of
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typographiques),
these are no rules, and I'll add they're widely unused (and very
controversial and complex, read
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typograph
iques#TITRES).
I just looked at my bookshelves, the very rarely apply these rules. Most of
the time it's either all caps "AU PLAISIR DE DIEU", Gallimard / "Le cri de
la mouette", Laffont / Even a Goncourt and Medicis prize like "Le testament
français", Mercure de France". I can provide plenty of other examples. The
Wikipedia rules are rarely met (about 4% of my books)"

Then mangled tried to save his point advancing la Pléiade rules, that didn't
stand as you reminded him you found a sentence case example.

I maintain that we should apply what is used in the *reality*, and it's
either all caps - but who would want this ? - or sentence mode. Now I'm just
a newcomer, so if you want to ignore this, fine, it's surely that there's
something I didn't manage to understand. I guess I'll live with these weird
capitalised titles.

MLL

>
> --
> Frederic Da Vitoria
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Musicbrainz-style@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>


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[Jan van Thiel-2]

Hi,

I've read al 82 (!) previous messages with this subject, and came to
the conclusion that

a) we need a simpler guideline for French capitalization;
b) Sentence Case is more in line with the general idea on French capitalization.

This is all my personal opinion, as a Dutch native who can read and
write some French.

Regards,
--
Jan (zout)

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Musicbrainz-style@...
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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/8/8, MLL <webmll@...>:

>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> > [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On
> > Behalf Of Frederic Da Vitoria
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 8:38 PM
> > To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> > Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
> > capitalization rules)
> >
> > 2006/8/8, Mangled <viapanda@...>:
> > > 2006/8/8, MLL <webmll@...>:
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> > > > >
> > [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On Behalf
> > > > > Of Mangled
> > > > > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 9:59 PM
> > > > > To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> > > > > Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
> > capitalization
> > > > > rules)
> > > > >
> > > > > Can we start with reaching a consensus out of these two
> > questions:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > (i) should MB try to follow common typographic
> > usage, as used
> > > > > > > for books? Or should it not, as MB is not about litterature
> > > > > (argument by
> > > > > > > bogdan)
> > > > > > > (ii) if MB is to follow/choose a *decent* (decent
> > according to
> > > > > > > *french typographic conventions*) capitalization method,
> > > > > is it even
> > > > > > > manageable? (argument by nikki)
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Objection, your Honor (should the h be in caps ? :P ). In
> > the real
> > > > world, there is no common typographic usage, as discussed
> > before. So
> > > > the proposal is biased.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Please, don't honor your french nationality by complicating
> > this more.
> > > Copying the mail from the 3rd:
> > >
> > > "(a) there *are* typographic *conventions* used in the *publishing
> > > industry* specifying how to capitalize titles
> > > (b) while these conventions are not a *consensus*, and while
> > > publishers (eg: typographers working for publishers) tend to each
> > > prefer their own way to capitalize, I don't recall *anybody* in the
> > > industry *seriously* thinking about sentence mode capitalization as
> > > the way to go
> > > (c) we are no longer (at least since 50 messages) talking
> > about what
> > > is the proper way to capitalize titles in french, and I don't think
> > > there's a point arguing about this (as nobody here is qualified to
> > > decide about that)"
> > >
> > > Now, can we move ahead and needle these two questions (i)
> > and (ii)? :P
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > - Olivier
> >
> > I agree. I guess you will have to decide without me, though.
> > I am about to leave on holidays :-)
>
> I still don't agree, sorry. I didn't react at the time, but I said on July
> 27th:

If you thought a little more before answering, you would have
understood that I was agreeing with "Now, can we move ahead and needle
these two questions". I was definitely not agreeing (nor disagreeing)
with you or Olivier, here.

> "- as WP says (read header of
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typographiques),
> these are no rules, and I'll add they're widely unused (and very
> controversial and complex, read
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion_Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typograph
> iques#TITRES).
> I just looked at my bookshelves, the very rarely apply these rules. Most of
> the time it's either all caps "AU PLAISIR DE DIEU", Gallimard / "Le cri de
> la mouette", Laffont / Even a Goncourt and Medicis prize like "Le testament
> français", Mercure de France". I can provide plenty of other examples. The
> Wikipedia rules are rarely met (about 4% of my books)"
>
> Then mangled tried to save his point advancing la Pléiade rules, that didn't
> stand as you reminded him you found a sentence case example.

mll, please, let us try to keep these kind of highly subjective and
arguable considerations out of this list. I feel this is exactly the
kind of remarks that could lead to flames, which seldom lead anywhere
useful.


> I maintain that we should apply what is used in the *reality*, and it's
> either all caps - but who would want this ? - or sentence mode. Now I'm just
> a newcomer, so if you want to ignore this, fine, it's surely that there's
> something I didn't manage to understand. I guess I'll live with these weird
> capitalised titles.

All caps, ouch. I would veto it (if I wasn't away from internet). But
we all know that we all agree on this, anyway.


--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/8/9, Jan van Thiel <zout@...>:

> Hi,
>
> I've read al 82 (!) previous messages with this subject, and came to
> the conclusion that
>
> a) we need a simpler guideline for French capitalization;
> b) Sentence Case is more in line with the general idea on French capitalization.
>
> This is all my personal opinion, as a Dutch native who can read and
> write some French.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Jan (zout)

Well, at least, it doesn't really hurt my eyes. And I feel it has a
simple logic that I like. But I am a french working with computers, so
do I like it because I am french (remember Descartes and Boileau) or
because I work with computers?

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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Musicbrainz-style@...
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[mll]

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Frederic Da Vitoria
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 2:05 PM
> To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
> capitalization rules)
>

>
> mll, please, let us try to keep these kind of highly
> subjective and arguable considerations out of this list. I
> feel this is exactly the kind of remarks that could lead to
> flames, which seldom lead anywhere useful.

OK, sorry about the tone. I just meant that some things told like evidences
are not such.


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[Frederic Da Vitoria]

2006/8/9, MLL <webmll@...>:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: musicbrainz-style-bounces@...
> > [mailto:musicbrainz-style-bounces@...] On
> > Behalf Of Frederic Da Vitoria
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 2:05 PM
> > To: MusicBrainz style discussion
> > Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
> > capitalization rules)
> >
>
> >
> > mll, please, let us try to keep these kind of highly
> > subjective and arguable considerations out of this list. I
> > feel this is exactly the kind of remarks that could lead to
> > flames, which seldom lead anywhere useful.
>
> OK, sorry about the tone. I just meant that some things told like evidences
> are not such.

I understand and you are right about this. But still, I believe
Olivier has a point: let us from now on forget about existing rules
(we will never agree on wether these rules exist or not) and
concentrate on what we should do for MB. But I suggest we wait until
the beginning of september. All of know that France forgets all about
technology in summer, especially during august's first fortnight. You
won't see many laptops on the beaches ;-) So I suggest (but I believe
this was already suggested by you a few days ago) we let this sleep
until the beginning of september. The vote will be more meaningful
then.

--
Frederic Da Vitoria

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