[mina] Refactoring MINA IoFilterChain (Was: IoFilters: DIRMINA-121 / 122)

[Maarten Bosteels-6]

+1  MINA should become its own TLP at Apache

Maarten

Alex Karasulu wrote:

> Looks like the traffic is picking up on MINA and things are heating up
> as we approach 1.0.  Initially my thought was to get a separate list
> for MINA however I'm thinking it might be best to just see if we can
> promote MINA to a TLP.  It has out grown its place in directory and
> many projects will depend on it.  It makes sense to me to see it
> acquire a life of its own.
>
> There's a good sized community brewing around MINA.  I'd like to see
> more people come forth as committers then see if we can get a proposal
> before the ASF board on budding off the MINA project.  IMHO this is
> better than creating a separate mailing list.
>
> Right now it would be good to see who favorrs this?  Any comments or
> for or against this idea?
>
> How about a little poll:
>
> [ ] +1 MINA should become its own TLP at Apache
> [ ] +0/0/-0 Maybe later, or let's get a separate mailing list for now
> etc.
> [ ] -1 MINA should remain at Directory as is
>
> Alex
>
>
>

[Enrique Rodriguez-2]

Alex Karasulu wrote:
...
> Right now it would be good to see who favorrs this?  Any comments or for
> or against this idea?
>
> How about a little poll:

[X] +1 MINA should become its own TLP at Apache
[ ] +0/0/-0 Maybe later, or let's get a separate mailing list for now etc.
[ ] -1 MINA should remain at Directory as is

Enrique

[Justin Rudd]

> [ ] +1 MINA should become its own TLP at Apache
> [ ] +0/0/-0 Maybe later, or let's get a separate mailing list for now etc.
> [ ] -1 MINA should remain at Directory as is

+1

--
Justin Rudd
"Get the facts first.  You can distort them later."
   - Mark Twain
http://seagecko.org/thoughts/

[Brett Porter]

+1 to a separate list.

-0 to a TLP. I don't quite understand the scope of MINA or its
potential for growth, so I'm not sure how viable it is in the long
term to support itself as a project and will leave that judgement to
others. But in the short term, there is no hope of this happening,
with one particular vital statistic:

$ svn log --xml | grep author | sort | uniq -c
     15 <author>akarasulu</author>
      5 <author>brett</author>
      1 <author>elecharny</author>
      1 <author>erodriguez</author>
      1 <author>noel</author>
    323 <author>trustin</author>

It needs more people. I know that's what Trustin desires to do, and I
think a separate list will help and also make it more apparent what
the community is around it.

Cheers,
Brett

On 11/16/05, Alex Karasulu <aok123@...> wrote:

> Looks like the traffic is picking up on MINA and things are heating up
> as we approach 1.0.  Initially my thought was to get a separate list for
> MINA however I'm thinking it might be best to just see if we can promote
> MINA to a TLP.  It has out grown its place in directory and many
> projects will depend on it.  It makes sense to me to see it acquire a
> life of its own.
>
> There's a good sized community brewing around MINA.  I'd like to see
> more people come forth as committers then see if we can get a proposal
> before the ASF board on budding off the MINA project.  IMHO this is
> better than creating a separate mailing list.
>
> Right now it would be good to see who favorrs this?  Any comments or for
> or against this idea?
>
> How about a little poll:
>
> [ ] +1 MINA should become its own TLP at Apache
> [ ] +0/0/-0 Maybe later, or let's get a separate mailing list for now etc.
> [ ] -1 MINA should remain at Directory as is
>
> Alex
>
>

[Stefan Zoerner-3]

Alex Karasulu wrote:
...
> How about a little poll:
>
[ ] +1 MINA should become its own TLP at Apache
[X] +0/0/-0 Maybe later, or let's get a separate mailing list for now etc.
[ ] -1 MINA should remain at Directory as is

Greetings from Munich,
     Stefan

[Trustin Lee]

Hi,

2005/11/16, Brett Porter <brett.porter@...>:

+1 to a separate list.

-0 to a TLP. I don't quite understand the scope of MINA or its
potential for growth, so I'm not sure how viable it is in the long
term to support itself as a project and will leave that judgement to
others. But in the short term, there is no hope of this happening,
with one particular vital statistic:

$ svn log --xml | grep author | sort | uniq -c
     15 <author>akarasulu</author>
      5 <author>brett</author>
      1 <author>elecharny</author>
      1 <author>erodriguez</author>
      1 <author>noel</author>
    323 <author>trustin</author>

It needs more people. I know that's what Trustin desires to do, and I
think a separate list will help and also make it more apparent what
the community is around it.

You're right.  I'm the only one who is checking in code to MINA now.  But this painful situation is going to change in the very near future.  People started to keep submitting patches and I've been really busy to apply the patches and participating to the community discussion these days.  So I believe we'll get a few healthy committers soon and the community will grow up so fast.

I think this vote was a little bit earlier than I thought, so I expect many '-1' casts. :)

Thanks Brett for your thoughtful advice.

Cheers,
Trustin

--
what we call human nature is actually human habit
--
http://gleamynode.net/

[Stephane Bailliez]

Alex Karasulu wrote:

> Looks like the traffic is picking up on MINA and things are heating up
> as we approach 1.0.  Initially my thought was to get a separate list
> for MINA however I'm thinking it might be best to just see if we can
> promote MINA to a TLP.  It has out grown its place in directory and
> many projects will depend on it.  It makes sense to me to see it
> acquire a life of its own.
>
> There's a good sized community brewing around MINA.  I'd like to see
> more people come forth as committers then see if we can get a proposal
> before the ASF board on budding off the MINA project.  IMHO this is
> better than creating a separate mailing list.
>
> Right now it would be good to see who favorrs this?  Any comments or
> for or against this idea?

I agree with Brett that a TLP might be a bit premature. If going out it
would be fine to me under the commons umbrella for example.

Fact is that as of now, Trustin is to MINA what Brett is to Maven
(without the situation to be really comparable due to past history), but
to me this is the same, it is clear that without them, their respective
project will fall to a more than noticeable halt and users will be left
in the dark for some time until someone steps up.

But it would be better I think to have MINA mail traffic outside Directory.
And it's a first step for the project as well.

[Trustin Lee]

Hello Stephane,

2005/11/16, Stephane Bailliez <sbailliez@...>:

I agree with Brett that a TLP might be a bit premature. If going out it
would be fine to me under the commons umbrella for example.

I know that you mentioned commons umbrella just 'for example', but I'd like to talk about the vision of MINA project a little bit here.

MINA is just a network application framework for now, but I don't think it will be forever.  My aim is to make MINA a full featured network application platform which features:

* Visual protocol designer based on various encodings such as ASN.1
* Unified administrative view based on JMX and web that all MINA application will get administrative benifit from
* High-performance server implementations (both standalone and embedded) for popular protocols based on MINA
** HTTP
** SMTP
** NFS / CIFS
** DNS
** NTP
* Integration with existing communication technologies:
** SOAP
** XML-HTTP

So going under commons umbrella is like moving to another Directory project IMHO because MINA won't fit well with commons eventually.

Fact is that as of now, Trustin is to MINA what Brett is to Maven
(without the situation to be really comparable due to past history), but
to me this is the same, it is clear that without them, their respective
project will fall to a more than noticeable halt and users will be left
in the dark for some time until someone steps up.

But it would be better I think to have MINA mail traffic outside Directory.
And it's a first step for the project as well.

You're right, and I already mentioned about our community plan here:

http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Yall-need-your-own-list-%28was%3A-Re%3A-mina-Refactoring-MINA-IoFilterChain-%28Was%3A-IoFilters%3A-DIRMINA-121-122%29%29-p1504779.html

Cheers,
Trustin
--
what we call human nature is actually human habit
--
http://gleamynode.net/

[Brett Porter]

How about SSH and FTP?

The reason I ask...

I was thinking a good way to start growing would be to look within
Apache for people who you could work with, beyond those already
involved from Directory. commons-net and commons-httpclient spring to
mind, as does the incubating FTPServer.

Your mention of XML-HTTP and SOAP widens that a whole lot too :)

For SSH, we currently depend on Jsch on the client side pretty
heavily. It's BSD licensed, but from what I can tell there are not
many developers on it (maybe just 1) and there is no server side
offering which would be really handy. If it makes sense, I know of
others who'd be interested in collaborating on that including myself,
though interested != has available time, of course :(

Just some additional thoughts.

Cheers,
Brett

On 11/16/05, Trustin Lee <trustin@...> wrote:

> Hello Stephane,
>
> 2005/11/16, Stephane Bailliez <sbailliez@...>:
> > I agree with Brett that a TLP might be a bit premature. If going out it
> > would be fine to me under the commons umbrella for example.
>
> I know that you mentioned commons umbrella just 'for example', but I'd like
> to talk about the vision of MINA project a little bit here.
>
> MINA is just a network application framework for now, but I don't think it
> will be forever.  My aim is to make MINA a full featured network application
> platform which features:
>
> * Visual protocol designer based on various encodings such as ASN.1
> * Unified administrative view based on JMX and web that all MINA application
> will get administrative benifit from
> * High-performance server implementations (both standalone and embedded) for
> popular protocols based on MINA
> ** HTTP
> ** SMTP
> ** NFS / CIFS
> ** DNS
> ** NTP
> * Integration with existing communication technologies:
> ** SOAP
> ** XML-HTTP
>
> So going under commons umbrella is like moving to another Directory project
> IMHO because MINA won't fit well with commons eventually.
>
> > Fact is that as of now, Trustin is to MINA what Brett is to Maven
> > (without the situation to be really comparable due to past history), but
> > to me this is the same, it is clear that without them, their respective
> > project will fall to a more than noticeable halt and users will be left
> > in the dark for some time until someone steps up.
> >
> > But it would be better I think to have MINA mail traffic outside
> Directory.
> > And it's a first step for the project as well.
>
> You're right, and I already mentioned about our community plan here:
>
> http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Yall-need-your-own-list-%28was%3A-Re%3A-mina-Refactoring-MINA-IoFilterChain-%28Was%3A-IoFilters%3A-DIRMINA-121-122%29%29-p1504779.html
>
> Cheers,
> Trustin
> --
> what we call human nature is actually human habit
> --
> http://gleamynode.net/

[Brett Porter]

On 11/16/05, Stephane Bailliez <sbailliez@...> wrote:
> Fact is that as of now, Trustin is to MINA what Brett is to Maven
> (without the situation to be really comparable due to past history), but
> to me this is the same, it is clear that without them, their respective
> project will fall to a more than noticeable halt and users will be left
> in the dark for some time until someone steps up.

Ha! I'm flattered, but that's not entirely true. I'd hope they'd at
least miss me a little though :)

I'm probably just the one most obnoxiously rambling on about it elsewhere.

- Brett

[Trustin Lee]

2005/11/16, Brett Porter <brett.porter@...>:

How about SSH and FTP?

They are the protocol I just forgot to mention. ;)

The reason I ask...

I was thinking a good way to start growing would be to look within
Apache for people who you could work with, beyond those already
involved from Directory. commons-net and commons-httpclient spring to
mind, as does the incubating FTPServer.

Your mention of XML-HTTP and SOAP widens that a whole lot too :)

Exactly.  I'd like to cooperate with FTPServer team and many other ppl in Apache to make this happen.

For SSH, we currently depend on Jsch on the client side pretty
heavily. It's BSD licensed, but from what I can tell there are not
many developers on it (maybe just 1) and there is no server side
offering which would be really handy. If it makes sense, I know of
others who'd be interested in collaborating on that including myself,
though interested != has available time, of course :(

That's great!  It would be really great! Any help will be appreciated definitely. :)

Regards,
Trustin
--
what we call human nature is actually human habit
--
http://gleamynode.net/

[Stephane Bailliez]

Trustin Lee wrote:

> I know that you mentioned commons umbrella just 'for example', but I'd
> like to talk about the vision of MINA project a little bit here.
>
> MINA is just a network application framework for now, but I don't
> think it will be forever.  My aim is to make MINA a full featured
> network application platform which features:
> [...]
> So going under commons umbrella is like moving to another Directory
> project IMHO because MINA won't fit well with commons eventually.

I agree, 'commons' is maybe not the best example..'Jakarta' probably is
more suited to what I meant.

My point was simply to say that it needs to be more apparent that MINA
is not really related to Directory but is a *real* project on its own,
like if you go to the Apache web page, user can see it listed without
needing to go to directory.

At the same time a TLP really is supposed to be for a very mature
project and means that whatever happens the project can auto-feed itself
which is very challenging and should remain like that.

For the records, originally, (Brett wasn't there yet but he can ask
Jason for history :), Maven was under Turbine.
The beginning though, was a bit more ...hem...frantic, but if I remember
well it started in with a [maven] tag in turbine mailing list in January
or February 2002 (maybe even december 2001) and by April it had its own
mailing list and was flooded by commits.

[Trustin Lee]

2005/11/16, Stephane Bailliez <sbailliez@...>:

My point was simply to say that it needs to be more apparent that MINA
is not really related to Directory but is a *real* project on its own,
like if you go to the Apache web page, user can see it listed without
needing to go to directory.

At the same time a TLP really is supposed to be for a very mature
project and means that whatever happens the project can auto-feed itself
which is very challenging and should remain like that.

This is a great and clear definition for 'TLP'.  I agree with you totally.

For the records, originally, (Brett wasn't there yet but he can ask
Jason for history :), Maven was under Turbine.
The beginning though, was a bit more ...hem...frantic, but if I remember
well it started in with a [maven] tag in turbine mailing list in January
or February 2002 (maybe even december 2001) and by April it had its own
mailing list and was flooded by commits.

I see your point. :)

Cheers,
Trustin
--
what we call human nature is actually human habit
--
http://gleamynode.net/

[Vinod Panicker]

In the long run, I definitely see MINA as a TLP.  I have a lot of
interest in the project and network apps are one of my favourites.  It
is unfortunate that I havent been able to devote much time in terms of
feature development on MINA primarily due to other commitments. A lot
of ASF projects can benefit from MINA - it is unfortunate that there
are no full-time committers other than Trustin.

+1 for TLP (after committers come aboard)
+1 for mailing list (right away)

Regards,
Vinod.

On 11/15/05, Alex Karasulu <aok123@...> wrote:
> Looks like the traffic is picking up on MINA and things are heating up
> as we approach 1.0.

[Vinod Panicker]

Yes, as Stephane said, visibility is extremely important for project
growth.  Right now, people are stumbling upon MINA, rather than coming
via apache.org.  Who would think that a network app framework would be
hidden inside a directory server project?

Currently as I said before, MINA needs more committers to become a
TLP, but what it needs today is visibility.

Commons is again a set of utility projects and MINA tends to act more
as a cornerstone than as a simple utility.

Regards,
Vinod.

[Emmanuel Lecharny]

> [ ] +1 MINA should become its own TLP at Apache

Even if Trustin is the main contributor of this project, I think that
TLPing it will favor a gain of popularity, driving to more participation
from other people.

However, this is a long process, so creating a separate ML is probably
an urgent move to do. (coming back from hollidays, more than half out of
the 300 messages received are mina related :)

-- Emmanuel

[Alex Karasulu-4]

Brett Porter wrote:

>+1 to a separate list.
>
>-0 to a TLP. I don't quite understand the scope of MINA or its
>potential for growth, so I'm not sure how viable it is in the long
>term to support itself as a project and will leave that judgement to
>others. But in the short term, there is no hope of this happening,
>with one particular vital statistic:
>
>$ svn log --xml | grep author | sort | uniq -c
>     15 <author>akarasulu</author>
>      5 <author>brett</author>
>      1 <author>elecharny</author>
>      1 <author>erodriguez</author>
>      1 <author>noel</author>
>    323 <author>trustin</author>
>
>It needs more people. I know that's what Trustin desires to do, and I
>think a separate list will help and also make it more apparent what
>the community is around it.
>  
>

Yep this is what I pointed out.  I'm very interested to see some
community building around MINA.  MINA has the potential for use across
ASF projects and can stand on it's own if it has more committers.  This
was a poll to see what people think about the potential for the
project.  We can work on these statistics and have several users that
will soon be getting involved with the project.  Keep in mind Trustin
himself has been applying user patches for a year now: these statistics
overlooks user contributions.

IMHO *really* building the committer base will not be hard to do with so
many userss out there needing changes. This is a matter of time.

Alex

[Alex Karasulu-4]

>
> I think this vote was a little bit earlier than I thought, so I expect
> many '-1' casts. :)

Dudes this is not a VOTE!!!! It's a poll.  Just wondering what people
think.  Please please understand that MINA is not ready.  However I
think MINA should become a TLP as opposed to being a part of the
Directory project in the *future*.  Really MINA has more to offer the
community at large than to Directory alone which is really it's first
user.  Yes it's our network layer however any project can use it.  It is
going to provide the server side framework people have been looking for
for many years.

Thing to do is to keep an eye out.  Let's make sure the community grows
steadily so TLP-age becomes an imminent possibility.

Alex

[Alex Karasulu-4]

Brett Porter wrote:

>How about SSH and FTP?
>
>The reason I ask...
>
>I was thinking a good way to start growing would be to look within
>Apache for people who you could work with, beyond those already
>involved from Directory. commons-net and commons-httpclient spring to
>mind, as does the incubating FTPServer.
>
>Your mention of XML-HTTP and SOAP widens that a whole lot too :)
>
>For SSH, we currently depend on Jsch on the client side pretty
>heavily. It's BSD licensed, but from what I can tell there are not
>many developers on it (maybe just 1) and there is no server side
>offering which would be really handy.
>

Oooooohhhh yeah definately.  Would be nice also to be able to ssh into
Felix console to do stuff ;).

>If it makes sense, I know of
>others who'd be interested in collaborating on that including myself,
>though interested != has available time, of course :(
>
>  
>
LOL that's the biggest problem for us all. :(.

Alex

[Ersin Er-3]

Alex Karasulu wrote:

> How about a little poll:

[x] +1 MINA should become its own TLP at Apache
[ ] +0/0/-0 Maybe later, or let's get a separate mailing list for now etc.
[ ] -1 MINA should remain at Directory as is

--
Ersin