[other] High Resistance mode?

[Jiri Kovalsky]

Hello Thomas and Anuradha,

Anuradha G wrote:

> Developers and Managers need solid stable release add they don't mind
> any delays to make it stable.

Of course people like stable products. Unfortunately, the definition of "stable" is problematic. Do you mean that stable means zero P1-P5 bugs? This can also mean that nobody was testing the product i.e. there are many many hidden and unknown bugs. So it is certainly better to agree on certain distribution of open bugs across priorities _in advance_ and test&fix like crazy during stabilization period. That's why we have you! NetCAT team of selected community members to help us with this task. We said that we will release only if:

- there are 0 P1 bugs
- P2 bugs must be all fixed or waived
- there are 4700 or less P3 bugs (target is 3350)

Do you question this goal?

Thomas Börkel wrote:

>> you are right but also don't forget to take into account how many
>> features were added to NetBeans 6.0. For example count number of modules
>> in 5.5 and compare the number with 6.0. Obviously, the more lines of
>> code, the bigger chance to introduce a bug.
>
> Right. And I do not question this nor do I say that this is not
> understandable. It's just a fact. The question is: Will you accept a
> high number of bugs for a release?

Yes, if we meet given quality criteria and CA survey will not discover any showstopper we can release.

-Jirka

[Thomas Börkel-2]

HI!

Jiri Kovalsky wrote:

> NetCAT team of selected community members to help us with this task. We
> said that we will release only if:
>
> - there are 0 P1 bugs
> - P2 bugs must be all fixed or waived
> - there are 4700 or less P3 bugs (target is 3350)
>
> Do you question this goal?

P1/P2 is OK. But >3000 P3 bugs sounds heavy to me. How many P3 bugs had
NB 5.0 and 5.5 at release time?

Thomas

[Anuradha G]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

HI Jiri,

- there are 0 P1 bugs  
- P2 bugs must be all fixed or waived
- there are 4700 or less P3 bugs (target is 3350)

You are right we can fix zero P1-P5 .Quality criteria  is ok BUT there are some annoying bug that affect IDE Quality.
Ex : http://www.netbeans.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=118784 Error badges feature unusable if  you cannot believe to tha badges
      http://www.netbeans.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=118783 Generating code which triggers a hint looks dumb.

     

On 10/17/07, Jiri Kovalsky <Jiri.Kovalsky@...> wrote:

Hello Thomas and Anuradha,

Anuradha G wrote:

> Developers and Managers need solid stable release add they don't mind
> any delays to make it stable.

Of course people like stable products. Unfortunately, the definition of "stable" is problematic. Do you mean that stable means zero P1-P5 bugs? This can also mean that nobody was testing the product i.e. there are many many hidden and unknown bugs. So it is certainly better to agree on certain distribution of open bugs across priorities _in advance_ and test&fix like crazy during stabilization period. That's why we have you! NetCAT team of selected community members to help us with this task. We said that we will release only if:

- there are 0 P1 bugs
- P2 bugs must be all fixed or waived
- there are 4700 or less P3 bugs (target is 3350)

Do you question this goal?

Thomas Börkel wrote:

>> you are right but also don't forget to take into account how many
>> features were added to NetBeans 6.0. For example count number of modules
>> in 5.5 and compare the number with 6.0. Obviously, the more lines of
>> code, the bigger chance to introduce a bug.
>
> Right. And I do not question this nor do I say that this is not
> understandable. It's just a fact. The question is: Will you accept a
> high number of bugs for a release?

Yes, if we meet given quality criteria and CA survey will not discover any showstopper we can release.

-Jirka

--
Anuradha G

[Anuradha G]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Typo :You are right we can't fix zero P1-P5

On 10/17/07, Anuradha G <theanuradha@...> wrote:

HI Jiri,

- there are 0 P1 bugs  
- P2 bugs must be all fixed or waived
- there are 4700 or less P3 bugs (target is 3350)

You are right we can fix zero P1-P5 .Quality criteria  is ok BUT there are some annoying bug that affect IDE Quality.
Ex : http://www.netbeans.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=118784 Error badges feature unusable if  you cannot believe to tha badges
      http://www.netbeans.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=118783 Generating code which triggers a hint looks dumb.

     

On 10/17/07, Jiri Kovalsky <Jiri.Kovalsky@...> wrote:

Hello Thomas and Anuradha,

Anuradha G wrote:

> Developers and Managers need solid stable release add they don't mind
> any delays to make it stable.

Of course people like stable products. Unfortunately, the definition of "stable" is problematic. Do you mean that stable means zero P1-P5 bugs? This can also mean that nobody was testing the product i.e. there are many many hidden and unknown bugs. So it is certainly better to agree on certain distribution of open bugs across priorities _in advance_ and test&fix like crazy during stabilization period. That's why we have you! NetCAT team of selected community members to help us with this task. We said that we will release only if:

- there are 0 P1 bugs
- P2 bugs must be all fixed or waived
- there are 4700 or less P3 bugs (target is 3350)

Do you question this goal?

Thomas Börkel wrote:

>> you are right but also don't forget to take into account how many
>> features were added to NetBeans 6.0. For example count number of modules
>> in 5.5 and compare the number with 6.0. Obviously, the more lines of
>> code, the bigger chance to introduce a bug.
>
> Right. And I do not question this nor do I say that this is not
> understandable. It's just a fact. The question is: Will you accept a
> high number of bugs for a release?

Yes, if we meet given quality criteria and CA survey will not discover any showstopper we can release.

-Jirka

--
Anuradha G

--
Anuradha G

[sunbiz_3000]

I think the goal is perfect. You cant fix all the bugs...and some of them will not be found/reported until the product is released. But we do not want in the face P2 bugs to be waived or left alone!!

>> Yes, if we meet given quality criteria and CA survey will not discover any showstopper we can release.

I totally agree with the above statement from Jiri !! Thats how it should be done!!

--
Regards,
Saptarshi PURKAYASTHA
My Tech Blog:  http://sunnytalkstech.blogspot.com

You Live by CHOICE, Not by CHANCE

On 17/10/2007, Jiri Kovalsky <Jiri.Kovalsky@...> wrote:

Hello Thomas and Anuradha,

Anuradha G wrote:

> Developers and Managers need solid stable release add they don't mind
> any delays to make it stable.

Of course people like stable products. Unfortunately, the definition of "stable" is problematic. Do you mean that stable means zero P1-P5 bugs? This can also mean that nobody was testing the product i.e. there are many many hidden and unknown bugs. So it is certainly better to agree on certain distribution of open bugs across priorities _in advance_ and test&fix like crazy during stabilization period. That's why we have you! NetCAT team of selected community members to help us with this task. We said that we will release only if:

- there are 0 P1 bugs
- P2 bugs must be all fixed or waived
- there are 4700 or less P3 bugs (target is 3350)

Do you question this goal?

Thomas Börkel wrote:

>> you are right but also don't forget to take into account how many
>> features were added to NetBeans 6.0. For example count number of modules
>> in 5.5 and compare the number with 6.0. Obviously, the more lines of
>> code, the bigger chance to introduce a bug.
>
> Right. And I do not question this nor do I say that this is not
> understandable. It's just a fact. The question is: Will you accept a
> high number of bugs for a release?

Yes, if we meet given quality criteria and CA survey will not discover any showstopper we can release.

-Jirka

[Vano Beridze]

Jiri Kovalsky wrote:

> Hi Thomas,
>
> Thomas Börkel wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Hmm, there are lots of P3 bugs open. Shouldn't the date be pushed back
>> further?
>
> We unfortunately can't fix all P1, P2 and even P3 bugs before
> releasing NetBeans 6.0. When planning 6.0 release we set up a Quality
> Criteria [1] that must be met for FCS.
> [1] http://wiki.netbeans.org/wiki/view/NB6QualityCriteria
>

I have a dream to have a NetBeans release containing no new features,
just a big bundle of bug fixes
and making things work right. I understand that every release brings
some major rewrite of some part
of IDE that was not working as expected, but that process can be infinite.
We got New Windowing System, New Project Management system, New
Refactorings, New Editor, New version control management system, New
Matisse builder, New Visual JSF Designer. I should have missed something.
Many bugs have been collected after these new features have been
introduced. During past netcat programs
we got the situation where some bugs were critical for me but they were
waved because they were not critical for the release. The result is that
We've always got IDE that has really cool features but with the
introduction of that cool features usability goes down. I'm afraid that
NetBeans 6.0 will have to many bugs
because the release date is really close.

> We believe that this is an ambitious while realistic goal in terms of
> quality. If we lower the total bug counts it would automatically
> postpone the release. Original planned FCS date was October 15th and
> already now it slipped to December 3rd (already 7 weeks delay) because
> of bug fixing problems. We can't do this forever.
>
> Does it makes sense?
> -Jirka
>
>

--
Vano Beridze
Software Developer
Silk Road Group

[Piero Sartini-3]

Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 13:04:43 schrieb Vano Beridze:
> We've always got IDE that has really cool features but with the
> introduction of that cool features usability goes down. I'm afraid that
> NetBeans 6.0 will have to many bugs
> because the release date is really close.

That is my oppinion as well. Maybe we should open a bug thats named "change
release criteria" and vote on it? Don't know.

The last 2 days I got 3 Nullpointer Exceptions when doing normal JSP editing.
I really think nb6 is not ready for release yet.

        Piero

[Anuradha G]

Count me in

On 10/17/07, Piero Sartini <lists@...> wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 13:04:43 schrieb Vano Beridze:
> We've always got IDE that has really cool features but with the
> introduction of that cool features usability goes down. I'm afraid that
> NetBeans 6.0 will have to many bugs
> because the release date is really close.

That is my oppinion as well. Maybe we should open a bug thats named "change
release criteria" and vote on it? Don't know.

The last 2 days I got 3 Nullpointer Exceptions when doing normal JSP editing.
I really think nb6 is not ready for release yet.

        Piero

--
Anuradha G

[Thomas Börkel-2]

HI!

Piero Sartini wrote:

> That is my oppinion as well. Maybe we should open a bug thats named "change
> release criteria" and vote on it? Don't know.
>
> The last 2 days I got 3 Nullpointer Exceptions when doing normal JSP editing.
> I really think nb6 is not ready for release yet.

It is not meant to be released today. ;-)

We still have Beta 2 and RCs to come. I just wanted to say that no more
fixing of P3 bugs in high resistance mode and having >3000 P3 bugs in
the release can be critical. These P3 bugs may not be show stoppers but
they can be very annoying to the user.

Thomas

[Anuradha G]

hese P3 bugs may not be show stoppers but
they can be very annoying to the user.

 I totally agree with you 

On 10/17/07, Thomas Börkel <thomas@...> wrote:

HI!

Piero Sartini wrote:

> That is my oppinion as well. Maybe we should open a bug thats named "change
> release criteria" and vote on it? Don't know.
>
> The last 2 days I got 3 Nullpointer Exceptions when doing normal JSP editing.
> I really think nb6 is not ready for release yet.

It is not meant to be released today. ;-)

We still have Beta 2 and RCs to come. I just wanted to say that no more
fixing of P3 bugs in high resistance mode and having >3000 P3 bugs in
the release can be critical. These P3 bugs may not be show stoppers but
they can be very annoying to the user.

Thomas

--
Anuradha G

[Rachad Honein]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

I think having P3 and above bugs is bad too, but this will never keep a developer from working, no bug will keep us out of working,  like suddenly delete his unsaved code or will recommend some extra work.

But, the BIG problem is the competitive market, where other IDE fans will be criticizing Netbeans for having these random pop up bugs, claiming that it is still unstable etc... Anyway, it all depends on Netbeans strategy for that realease...

----- Original Message ----
From: Piero Sartini <lists@...>
To: netcat@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:13:17 AM
Subject: Re: [60cat] [other] High Resistance mode?

Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 13:04:43 schrieb Vano Beridze:
> We've always got IDE that has really cool features but with the
> introduction of that cool features usability goes down. I'm afraid that
> NetBeans 6.0 will have to many bugs
> because the release date is really close.

That is my oppinion as well. Maybe we should open a bug thats named "change
release criteria" and vote on it? Don't know.

The last 2 days I got 3 Nullpointer Exceptions when doing normal JSP editing.
I really think nb6 is not ready for release yet.

    Piero

---

Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Jiri Kovalsky]

Hello Piero,

Piero Sartini wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 13:04:43 schrieb Vano Beridze:
>
>> I have a dream to have a NetBeans release containing no new
>> features, just a big bundle of bug fixes and making things work right.

NetBeans evangelists keep us reminding that we miss many features like background compilation, ClearCase support, Spring, PHP, JavaScript, freeform projects improvements etc. that block people from using NetBeans. I think it's useless to say that we want more people to use our IDE. :-) Of course, the quality is also a feature but if we stop adding new features we will shortly stay behind.

>> I'm afraid that NetBeans 6.0 will have to many bugs because
>> the release date is really close.
>
> That is my oppinion as well. Maybe we should open a bug thats named "change
> release criteria" and vote on it? Don't know.

I think such vague issue would not help. :-) Thomas suggested to set the goal of 3000 open P3 bugs. I don't understand why this is THE number that will make sure that NetBeans becomes stable. What if there is a P3 bug that is critical for somebody?

> The last 2 days I got 3 Nullpointer Exceptions when doing normal JSP editing.

Fine, did you report it into Issuezilla? The sooner you NetCAT participants report a bug the bigger chance it gets fixed before High Resistance. And that's why we are very grateful for your help!

Hope this helps,
-Jirka

[Anuradha G]

HI Jiri ,
Don't get me wrong,To me  3000 is better than 3350 ( 350 bugs better than nothing :) )  

On 10/17/07, Jiri Kovalsky <Jiri.Kovalsky@...> wrote:

Hello Piero,

Piero Sartini wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 13:04:43 schrieb Vano Beridze:
>
>> I have a dream to have a NetBeans release containing no new
>> features, just a big bundle of bug fixes and making things work right.

NetBeans evangelists keep us reminding that we miss many features like background compilation, ClearCase support, Spring, PHP, JavaScript, freeform projects improvements etc. that block people from using NetBeans. I think it's useless to say that we want more people to use our IDE. :-) Of course, the quality is also a feature but if we stop adding new features we will shortly stay behind.

>> I'm afraid that NetBeans 6.0 will have to many bugs because
>> the release date is really close.
>
> That is my oppinion as well. Maybe we should open a bug thats named "change
> release criteria" and vote on it? Don't know.

I think such vague issue would not help. :-) Thomas suggested to set the goal of 3000 open P3 bugs. I don't understand why this is THE number that will make sure that NetBeans becomes stable. What if there is a P3 bug that is critical for somebody?

> The last 2 days I got 3 Nullpointer Exceptions when doing normal JSP editing.

Fine, did you report it into Issuezilla? The sooner you NetCAT participants report a bug the bigger chance it gets fixed before High Resistance. And that's why we are very grateful for your help!

Hope this helps,
-Jirka

--
Anuradha G

[Thomas Börkel-2]

HI!

Jiri Kovalsky wrote:

> I think such vague issue would not help. :-) Thomas suggested to set the
> goal of 3000 open P3 bugs. I don't understand why this is THE number
> that will make sure that NetBeans becomes stable. What if there is a P3
> bug that is critical for somebody?

Wait a moment. I did not suggest this goal. There was a number from you
(3350?) as the goal for release. And I said >3000 open bugs is very heavy.

I even think >1000 bugs is heavy.

Thomas

[Piero Sartini-3]

Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 13:50:46 schrieb Jiri Kovalsky:
> I think such vague issue would not help. :-) Thomas suggested to set the
> goal of 3000 open P3 bugs. I don't understand why this is THE number that
> will make sure that NetBeans becomes stable. What if there is a P3 bug that
> is critical for somebody?

So - what does help?

> > The last 2 days I got 3 Nullpointer Exceptions when doing normal JSP
> > editing.
>
> Fine, did you report it into Issuezilla? The sooner you NetCAT participants
> report a bug the bigger chance it gets fixed before High Resistance. And
> that's why we are very grateful for your help!

Of course I did. And they are all P3 - I just mentioned to show you that until
now, it is very likely there occurs about one NPE per day when doing everyday
(web)work with NB6. And this is, in my humble oppinion, way too much.

        Piero

[Petr Nejedly]

Piero Sartini wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 13:50:46 schrieb Jiri Kovalsky:
>
>>I think such vague issue would not help. :-) Thomas suggested to set the
>>goal of 3000 open P3 bugs. I don't understand why this is THE number that
>>will make sure that NetBeans becomes stable. What if there is a P3 bug that
>>is critical for somebody?
>
>
> So - what does help?
>
>
>>>The last 2 days I got 3 Nullpointer Exceptions when doing normal JSP
>>>editing.
>>
>>Fine, did you report it into Issuezilla? The sooner you NetCAT participants
>>report a bug the bigger chance it gets fixed before High Resistance. And
>>that's why we are very grateful for your help!
>
>
> Of course I did. And they are all P3 - I just mentioned to show you that until
> now, it is very likely there occurs about one NPE per day when doing everyday
> (web)work with NB6. And this is, in my humble oppinion, way too much.

Well, FCS may have the exceptions dialog turned off (as we did it in few
previous releases) and if the NPE doesn't really break something visibly,
you won't even notice most of the time. I'm not sure you'll sleep better after
knowing this, though.

--
Petr "Nenik" Nejedly, NetBeans/Sun Microsystems, http://www.netbeans.org
355/113 -- Not the famous irrational number PI, but an incredible simulation!

[Jiri Kovalsky]

Hi Piero,

Piero Sartini wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 13:50:46 schrieb Jiri Kovalsky:
>
>> I think such vague issue would not help. :-) Thomas suggested to set the
>> goal of 3000 open P3 bugs. I don't understand why this is THE number that
>> will make sure that NetBeans becomes stable. What if there is a P3 bug that
>> is critical for somebody?
>
> So - what does help?

If we talk about quality i.e. decreasing malfunctions in the product, I am convinced that programs like this help to achieve this big goal. I for one consider NetCAT 6.0 very successful so far.

If you think some problem is very annoying, why don't you ask your NetCAT colleagues at this list and vote for the issue? That's what I suggested two weeks ago. Votes help us distinguish which P3 bugs are more serious than the others. Sometimes we might even consider upgrading priority.

Finally, you will be able to rate quality of the main release drivers during the Community Acceptance survey. If you don't know what it is, take a look at the NetCAT 5.0 CA survey [1] for example.

[1] http://qa.netbeans.org/processes/cat/50/survey_preview.html

Thanks for your understanding and feedback!
-Jirka

[Glenn Holmer]

On Wednesday 17 October 2007 06:50, Jiri Kovalsky wrote:
> Piero Sartini wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 13:04:43 schrieb Vano Beridze:
> >> I have a dream to have a NetBeans release containing no new
> >> features, just a big bundle of bug fixes and making things work
> >> right.

We should live so long :)

> NetBeans evangelists keep us reminding that we miss many features
> like background compilation, ClearCase support, Spring, PHP,
> JavaScript, freeform projects improvements etc. that block people
> from using NetBeans. I think it's useless to say that we want more
> people to use our IDE. :-) Of course, the quality is also a feature
> but if we stop adding new features we will shortly stay behind.

I agree, nothing must stop NetBeans world domination!  On the other
hand, maybe every other release should be a maintenance release, with
new features held until that is out the door.  Maintenance releases
could probably be done on a quicker schedule than adding the ability to
give the user a haircut and a shave.

--
____________________________________________________________
Glenn Holmer                          gholmer@...
Software Engineer                        phone: [phone]
Weyco Group, Inc.                          fax: [phone]

[Vano Beridze]

Glenn Holmer wrote:
> I agree, nothing must stop NetBeans world domination!  On the other
> hand, maybe every other release should be a maintenance release, with
> new features held until that is out the door.  Maintenance releases
> could probably be done on a quicker schedule than adding the ability to
> give the user a haircut and a shave.
>
>  
I totally agree. I remember having such a release. 3.5.1. Some <100 bugs
have been selected and fixed.
Would not mind having 6.1 or something after 3-4 months from 6.0.
I'm pretty sure it's off this topic but the root of the problem lies in
the community. It would be interesting
to know how many netbeans users are actually contributing code. Sun
alone can not provide all the requested features or provides but with
limited functionality. Somehow during so long period NetBeans community
is not giving back to the project like this is done in case of Mozilla,
Eclipse, Apache and many other successful OpenSource projects.

--
Vano Beridze
Software Developer
Silk Road Group

[tetsu.soh]

So do I.
nb6 is not ready, at least for my team.

"Anuradha G" <theanuradha@...> wrote on 2007/10/17 20:24:59:

> Count me in

> On 10/17/07, Piero Sartini <lists@...> wrote:
> >
> > Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 13:04:43 schrieb Vano Beridze:
> > > We've always got IDE that has really cool features but with the
> > > introduction of that cool features usability goes down. I'm afraid
that

> > > NetBeans 6.0 will have to many bugs
> > > because the release date is really close.
> >
> > That is my oppinion as well. Maybe we should open a bug thats named
> > "change
> > release criteria" and vote on it? Don't know.
> >
> > The last 2 days I got 3 Nullpointer Exceptions when doing normal JSP
> > editing.
> > I really think nb6 is not ready for release yet.
> >
> >         Piero
> >

>
> --
> Anuradha G
> [attachment "C.htm" deleted by Tetsu Soh/O/RICOH]