[tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?

[Robert-329]

Hello,

We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other ways
with many trees nearby.

I found here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row
alley=left/right/both

I think the tag “alley” is a mistranslation (false friends) and
1. avenue
or
2. tree-lined road
is better for roads marked by trees.

The tag alley is already used for highway=service; service=alley for
narrow ways.

I think the second version “tree-lined” or ”tree_lined” is better than
“avenue”.
With this key we can use it for other lines of trees, for example near
railways, rivers and so on.

At the moment this tag is probably only mainly used in Germany:
http://osmdoc.com/de/tag/alley/#values
comparison: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Germany/De/tags.html
key alley with values: both (251), right (27), left (26), yes (8)

My questions:
Would we like to change this tag?


Robert

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[John F. Eldredge]

Speaking as a non-German, I find "tree-lined" more specific.  In American usage, "avenue" is just a synonym for "street" or "road", with no connotation of tree-lined or not tree-lined.  An "alley" in American usage is a narrow service road, generally only one lane wide, used for low-speed access to the side or back of properties.  It is distinguished from a driveway in that a driveway is on private land and generally gives access to just one property; an alley is on public property and generally gives access to multiple properties.

--
John F. Eldredge -- john@...
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert <ropino@...>
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:54:32
To: Talk Openstreetmap<talk@...>
Subject: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?

Hello,

We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other ways
with many trees nearby.

I found here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row
alley=left/right/both

I think the tag “alley” is a mistranslation (false friends) and
1. avenue
or
2. tree-lined road
is better for roads marked by trees.

The tag alley is already used for highway=service; service=alley for
narrow ways.

I think the second version “tree-lined” or ”tree_lined” is better than
“avenue”.
With this key we can use it for other lines of trees, for example near
railways, rivers and so on.

At the moment this tag is probably only mainly used in Germany:
http://osmdoc.com/de/tag/alley/#values
comparison: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Germany/De/tags.html
key alley with values: both (251), right (27), left (26), yes (8)

My questions:
Would we like to change this tag?


Robert

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Hillsman, Edward]

>Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:54:32 +0000
>From: Robert <ropino@...>
>Subject: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
>
>Hello,
>
>We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other ways
>with many trees nearby.
>
>I found here:
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row
>alley=left/right/both
>
>I think the tag ?alley? is a mistranslation (false friends) and
>1. avenue
>or
>2. tree-lined road
>is better for roads marked by trees.
>
>The tag alley is already used for highway=service; service=alley for
>narrow ways.
>
>I think the second version ?tree-lined? or ?tree_lined? is better than
>?avenue?.
>With this key we can use it for other lines of trees, for example near
>railways, rivers and so on.
>
>At the moment this tag is probably only mainly used in Germany:
>http://osmdoc.com/de/tag/alley/#values
>comparison: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Germany/De/tags.html
>key alley with values: both (251), right (27), left (26), yes (8)
>
>My questions:
>Would we like to change this tag?
>
>
>Robert

Hi Robert,

I posted the following on the tagging listserv last Friday, as part of a longer discussion. I would like to see the tagging separate the attribute (shade) from the feature itself (highway, footway, etc.). Most of what I wrote would apply more to sidewalks/footways than to streets, but the =trees option clearly would apply to streets as well. I want to get some photos to illustrate the application, and then post it as a proposal for comment. But I would welcome your suggestions before then

we want to develop a walking-route finder for students using
wheelchairs. I've been considering proposing a tag shade=*, intended
to apply to a sidewalk or street (mostly sidewalks, though), with the  
following values based on midday shading:

=trees, if the way is heavily shaded by trees (not intended for areas  
on a way shaded a single tree, but for a length of way with shade  
covering a substantial part of the length)
=pergola, if the way is covered by a pergola or similar trellis with  
plantings dense enough to provide shade
=roof if the way is covered by an awning or similar roof impervious to  
rain. Intended for a free-standing structure built for the purpose of  
covering the sidewalk
=building if the way hugs the north side of a building and is shaded  
by it (this would apply in latitudes farther north than here--in  
midsummer the sun is too high)
=portico if the way runs beneath a canopy, colonnade, or similar  
projection of the building that provides shade and shelter but,  
depending on the orientation of the way, might provide shade at noon  
and in the morning, but not in the afternoon (or vice versa). This is  
the value that I have been considering for the second case above  
(building on one side, grass on the other, second level overhead.  
Older parts of some European cities are full of these. Better-designed  
commercial developments also have extended awnings/canopies attached  
to the front of the buildings, shading the sidewalk that runs along  
the front of the shops.
=none would be the implied value if shade=* is not coded, although I  
would understand if a mapper coded it to make a point during a hot  
shadeless afternoon walk.
Maybe other values, but these are the ones I've encountered here, or  
thought about. shade=trees could apply to older streets as well as  
sidewalks, but I doubt the other values would apply to streets very  
often. Shade=trees would also apply to stretches of hiking paths  
(below treeline, obviously) and cycle paths, distinguishing them from  
stretches through meadow, rockfields, talus, etc. Useful for planning  
a hike.

Knowing about shade would allow the eventual routing application to  
trade off using a slightly longer shady route vs a shorter one without  
shade. Because of trees, we can't just tag shade in association with a  
building or architectural element.

Edward L. Hillsman, Ph.D.
Senior Research Associate
Center for Urban Transportation Research
University of South Florida
4202 Fowler Ave., CUT100
Tampa, FL  33620-5375
813-974-2977 (tel)
813-974-5168 (fax)
hillsman@...  
http://www.cutr.usf.edu



_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Mario Salvini]

tree_lined=yes

Robert schrieb:

> Hello,
>
> We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other ways
> with many trees nearby.
>
> I found here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row
> alley=left/right/both
>
> I think the tag “alley” is a mistranslation (false friends) and
> 1. avenue
> or
> 2. tree-lined road
> is better for roads marked by trees.
>
> The tag alley is already used for highway=service; service=alley for
> narrow ways.
>
> I think the second version “tree-lined” or ”tree_lined” is better than
> “avenue”.
> With this key we can use it for other lines of trees, for example near
> railways, rivers and so on.
>
> At the moment this tag is probably only mainly used in Germany:
> http://osmdoc.com/de/tag/alley/#values
> comparison: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Germany/De/tags.html
> key alley with values: both (251), right (27), left (26), yes (8)
>
> My questions:
> Would we like to change this tag?
>
>
> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk@...
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>  

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Peter Childs-5]

2009/11/3 Hillsman, Edward <hillsman@...>

>Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:54:32 +0000

>From: Robert <ropino@...>

>Subject: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
>

>Hello,
>
>We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other ways
>with many trees nearby.
>
>I found here:
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row
>alley=left/right/both
>
>I think the tag ?alley? is a mistranslation (false friends) and
>1. avenue
>or
>2. tree-lined road
>is better for roads marked by trees.
>

Nice Idea, 

Participially if the trees overhang the road, and may get in the way of Busses (that often have to brush past them) and other high sided vehicles. Perhaps there should be a way to mark if this may be a problem for such vehicles.

Peter. 

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Mike Harris-10]

Having lived in England, America and Germany ...

In British English and avenue is usually used for a road (or sometimes another way - e.g. in a park) that is lined with trees.
I agree with John's definition of the American English usage.
In German I agree with Robert that "alley" is a mistranslation ('false friend') for "Allee", which I would normally translate into (British) English as "avenue" - just as I would "puistotie" from Finnish (which is a more descriptive term anyway - 'park road').
To confuse matters further, my feeling is that in French the word "allée" can be translated - according to context - into the British English "avenue", the American English "avenue" or the English "alley"!
Not quite sure about Chinese or Arabic (:>)

I don't especially like "tree-lined" - but at least it says what it means and avoids the linguistic mess!

Mike Harris
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John F. Eldredge [mailto:john@...]
> Sent: 03 November 2009 13:40
> To: Open Street Map mailing list
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
>
> Speaking as a non-German, I find "tree-lined" more specific.  
> In American usage, "avenue" is just a synonym for "street" or
> "road", with no connotation of tree-lined or not tree-lined.  
> An "alley" in American usage is a narrow service road,
> generally only one lane wide, used for low-speed access to
> the side or back of properties.  It is distinguished from a
> driveway in that a driveway is on private land and generally
> gives access to just one property; an alley is on public
> property and generally gives access to multiple properties.
>
> --
> John F. Eldredge -- john@...
> "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is
> better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert <ropino@...>
> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:54:32
> To: Talk Openstreetmap<talk@...>
> Subject: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?
>
> Hello,
>
> We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and
> other ways with many trees nearby.
>
> I found here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row
> alley=left/right/both
>
> I think the tag “alley” is a mistranslation (false friends)
> and 1. avenue or 2. tree-lined road is better for roads
> marked by trees.
>
> The tag alley is already used for highway=service;
> service=alley for narrow ways.
>
> I think the second version “tree-lined” or ”tree_lined” is
> better than “avenue”.
> With this key we can use it for other lines of trees, for
> example near railways, rivers and so on.
>
> At the moment this tag is probably only mainly used in Germany:
> http://osmdoc.com/de/tag/alley/#values
> comparison: http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Germany/De/tags.html
> key alley with values: both (251), right (27), left (26), yes (8)
>
> My questions:
> Would we like to change this tag?
>
>
> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk@...
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Morten Kjeldgaard]

On 03/11/2009, at 16.53, Mike Harris wrote:

> I don't especially like "tree-lined" - but at least it says what it  
> means and avoids the linguistic mess!


Although most allée's have trees lining both left and right sides, the  
tagging should provide for those instances where trees are only on one  
side of the street. Therefore, we might want:

   tree_lined=right
   tree_lined=left
   tree_lined=yes (meaning both left & right)

This is a bit different though, from cycle tracks, that are often  
tagged e.g.

   bicycle:right = track
   bicycle:left = lane

so perhaps it would make sense to stay within that nomenclature. That  
implies something like:

   trees:right = lined
   trees:left = lined
   trees=yes

It might also be of interest to specify the number of trees, in which  
case you might imagine:

trees:right = 29

Just some food for thought :-)

Cheers,
Morten




_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Liz-25]

On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Morten Kjeldgaard wrote:

> On 03/11/2009, at 16.53, Mike Harris wrote:
> > I don't especially like "tree-lined" - but at least it says what it
> > means and avoids the linguistic mess!
>
> Although most allée's have trees lining both left and right sides, the
> tagging should provide for those instances where trees are only on one
> side of the street. Therefore, we might want:
>
>    tree_lined=right
>    tree_lined=left
>    tree_lined=yes (meaning both left & right)
>

>
> Just some food for thought :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Morten
>

left and right compared to what??
I'm going to go one way down the street and mark the trees on the left, and
you are going to go the other way down the street and mark the trees on the
right.


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Tobias Knerr]

Liz wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Morten Kjeldgaard wrote:
>>    tree_lined=right
>>    tree_lined=left
>>    tree_lined=yes (meaning both left & right)

I don't like it that much (don't like the cycleway:left/right tags
either, though). I'd prefer an integration into a generally usable lane
model with information about lane ordering. Then I could also map that
road with tree lines *between* pavement and car lanes properly.

I guess it's ok as a temporary solution ...

> left and right compared to what??
> I'm going to go one way down the street and mark the trees on the left, and
> you are going to go the other way down the street and mark the trees on the
> right.

As with all left/right tags (as well as forward/backward, up/down,
oneway, incline, etc.), this would certainly refer on the way's
direction in the OSM database.

Tobias Knerr

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Kenneth Gonsalves-2]

On Tuesday 03 Nov 2009 8:12:55 pm Peter Childs wrote:
> Participially if the trees overhang the road, and may get in the way of
> Busses (that often have to brush past them) and other high sided vehicles.
> Perhaps there should be a way to mark if this may be a problem for such
> vehicles.
>

very useful - trees and pavements have been driving me crazy
--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Senior Project Officer
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Andrew Errington-2]

On Wed, November 4, 2009 10:25, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> On Tuesday 03 Nov 2009 8:12:55 pm Peter Childs wrote:
>
>> Participially if the trees overhang the road, and may get in the way of
>>  Busses (that often have to brush past them) and other high sided
>> vehicles. Perhaps there should be a way to mark if this may be a problem
>> for such vehicles.
>>
>
> very useful - trees and pavements have been driving me crazy --

Probably this should be handled with a height restriction:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxheight

Generally, if it's a main thoroughfare the local authority will trim the
trees to allow all traffic to pass (including buses and lorries).

Andrew


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Peter Childs-5]

2009/11/4 Andrew Errington <a.errington@...>

On Wed, November 4, 2009 10:25, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> On Tuesday 03 Nov 2009 8:12:55 pm Peter Childs wrote:
>
>> Participially if the trees overhang the road, and may get in the way of
>>  Busses (that often have to brush past them) and other high sided
>> vehicles. Perhaps there should be a way to mark if this may be a problem
>> for such vehicles.
>>
>
> very useful - trees and pavements have been driving me crazy --

Probably this should be handled with a height restriction:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxheight

Generally, if it's a main thoroughfare the local authority will trim the
trees to allow all traffic to pass (including buses and lorries).

True, but always nice to know what causes the height restriction, and where the trees are that might need trimming, or may cause high sided vehicles to run closer to the centre of the road to avoid the trees. (partically if a bus lane is present but can't be used due to said trees) 

Peter. 

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Ed Avis-2]

Agreed, 'avenue' is a tree-lined road, but in US usage it often just means
'street'.

--
Ed Avis <eda@...>


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[malenki-2]

Robert wrote:

>We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other
>ways with many trees nearby.
>
>I found here:
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row
>alley=left/right/both

As I explained at talk-de a new tag for $way_with_trees_beside is
suberfluous. Why not to use the existing natural= tag at existing ways
(railways, waterways, highways) like this:
highway=tertiary
surface=asphalt
natural:trees=left(/right/both)
name:botanical=Tilia tomentosa

Regards
malenki


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[malenki-2]

Tobias Knerr wrote:

>Liz wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Morten Kjeldgaard wrote:
>>>    tree_lined=right
>>>    tree_lined=left
>>>    tree_lined=yes (meaning both left & right)
>
>I don't like it that much (don't like the cycleway:left/right tags
>either, though). I'd prefer an integration into a generally usable lane
>model with information about lane ordering. Then I could also map that
>road with tree lines *between* pavement and car lanes properly.

Maybe you want to have a look at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/lane_and_lane_group

Regards
malenki


_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Cohan]

+1
Adding a new value to the highway tag does not seem to fit with the
current view of highway-tag usage. This suggestion keeps the
"importance" of the roads intact (and thus helps routing software
calculate the best route - should a tree-lined road be preferred over
a tertiary? Over a unclassified?)
And both a residential and tertiary can have trees on the sides.

Konrad


2009/11/4 malenki <osm_@...>:

>
> As I explained at talk-de a new tag for $way_with_trees_beside is
> suberfluous. Why not to use the existing natural= tag at existing ways
> (railways, waterways, highways) like this:
> highway=tertiary
> surface=asphalt
> natural:trees=left(/right/both)
> name:botanical=Tilia tomentosa
>
> Regards
> malenki
>

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[John F. Eldredge]

Unless you include a definition of how close the trees have to be to the roadway, almost every roadway in areas with enough rainfall to support trees would be classified as tree-lined.

--
John F. Eldredge -- john@...
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

-----Original Message-----
From: Konrad Skeri <konrad@...>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 22:14:56
Cc: <talk@...>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] alley - for tree-lined roads?

+1
Adding a new value to the highway tag does not seem to fit with the
current view of highway-tag usage. This suggestion keeps the
"importance" of the roads intact (and thus helps routing software
calculate the best route - should a tree-lined road be preferred over
a tertiary? Over a unclassified?)
And both a residential and tertiary can have trees on the sides.

Konrad


2009/11/4 malenki <osm_@...>:

>
> As I explained at talk-de a new tag for $way_with_trees_beside is
> suberfluous. Why not to use the existing natural= tag at existing ways
> (railways, waterways, highways) like this:
> highway=tertiary
> surface=asphalt
> natural:trees=left(/right/both)
> name:botanical=Tilia tomentosa
>
> Regards
> malenki
>

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Tobias Knerr]

malenki wrote:
> Tobias Knerr wrote:
>> I don't like it that much (don't like the cycleway:left/right tags
>> either, though). I'd prefer an integration into a generally usable lane
>> model with information about lane ordering. Then I could also map that
>> road with tree lines *between* pavement and car lanes properly.
>
> Maybe you want to have a look at
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/lane_and_lane_group

I know that proposal, I have created it myself. :) However, it might be
too complex to be useable without massive tool support. Maybe relations
should be avoided entirely for something as ubiquitous as lanes.

Currently, I'm considering pure tag-based approaches - even if those
would require a numeric(?) index on tags to group information belonging
to the same lane. This would be more easy to deal with in primitive
editors as well as changeset diff views and similar tools.

There's still a lot of discussion (as well as implementation and mapping
effort) ahead until we have a working and established solution for the
lane issue. Therefore, short-term partial solutions - such as the ones
proposed for tree lines - are a valid choice right now.

Tobias "Tordanik" Knerr

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2009/11/4 malenki <osm_@...>

Robert wrote:

>We are discussing in talk-de (German board) just streets and other
>ways with many trees nearby.
>
>I found here:
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/tree_row
>alley=left/right/both

As I explained at talk-de a new tag for $way_with_trees_beside is
suberfluous. Why not to use the existing natural= tag at existing ways
(railways, waterways, highways) like this:
highway=tertiary
surface=asphalt
natural:trees=left(/right/both)
name:botanical=Tilia tomentosa

is it really necessary to attach the trees to the highway? We could simply map the trees as such ( maybe starting with a way but in a further progressing map we could arrive even at a point where every single tree is mapped with a node, allowing for entering more details (like perimeter of the trunk or species for every tree in mixed occurences). It might be more difficult to check the db for avenues that way (as you would have to check for proximity) but this could be overcome by a relation (guess this is what my preposters suggested for lane-groups).

cheers,
Martin

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk@...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk