11 seconds to load admin pages. Do we really need XForms there?

[thomas.0007]

I am so exited about the myriad of new features in the new release. Great
job everyone!

We all want to make eXist better, faster and more efficient. It seams in one
small area we went astray.

The latest version of the admin pages loads noticeable slower. It actually
takes between 11.5 and 13.5 seconds to update the page after a click on a
link or a button in the page. And it is not because every page loads almost
890kB JavaScript and CSS files. This is the time that takes to generate the
HTML page.

I can understand the excitement about using new technologies and I love to
do this myself. But do we really need these very simple pages to be done in
complicated and slow way using XForm, just because we can? The result speaks
for itself - pages that use to be rendered in a fraction of a second, now
take more then 11 seconds.

To me this is painfully slow and I would like to propose to restore the
previous simple, fast and efficient version of the admin pages. We can still
keep the XForm implementation under examples, for those of us who prefer to
use it.

I loveXForms don't get me wrong, but some times the way we use it, reminds
me the story about the boy who just received a brand new Philips screwdriver
and he started looking around for anything already assembled with normals
screws, that can unsrewed and replaced with Philips screws just because it
is fun to use the new tool. :-)

Kind regards,
Thomas






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[Wolfgang Meier-2]

Question: why do you think it is xforms which makes the pages slow?

Wolfgang

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[Wolfgang Meier-2]

> Question: why do you think it is xforms which makes the pages slow?

I ask because I also had the feeling that the admin webapp could be a
bit snappier. However, I did not suspect xsltforms to be causing this.
But it seems you might be right. I don't have anymore time to work on
this, but I can certainly deactivate xforms for all admin pages except
the one which needs it.

The main reason for using xforms is this: I'm always planning into the
future and the admin webapp will certainly need an overhaul. Using
xforms allows for much faster prototyping, so I planned to use it
throughout the app. I thus took the chance to prepare the app when I
had to extend it last time. This has nothing to do with "excitement",
it's just practical considerations.

I guess many users here would be skilled enough to write a real good
admin interface using whatever technology is best. Please help. I'd
love to concentrate on other stuff.

Wolfgang

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[thomas.0007]

Wolfgang,

I think I can help. Next two weeks I am very busy, but after that I will be
able to dedicate some more time and come up with a new version of the admin
webapp.

Kind regards,
Thomas




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[thomas.0007]

Wolfgang,

 

I really appreciate your work and I deeply regret if anything I wrote was in any way, shape or form offencive to you. 

It was not intentional.

 

Kind regards,

Thomas


------

Thomas White

Mobile:[phone]
Skype: thomaswhite
gTalk: thomas.0007
Linked-In:http://www.linkedin.com/in/thomaswhite0007
facebook: http://www.facebook.com/thomas.0007

2009/11/10 Wolfgang Meier <wolfgang@...>

> Question: why do you think it is xforms which makes the pages slow?

I ask because I also had the feeling that the admin webapp could be a
bit snappier. However, I did not suspect xsltforms to be causing this.
But it seems you might be right. I don't have anymore time to work on
this, but I can certainly deactivate xforms for all admin pages except
the one which needs it.

The main reason for using xforms is this: I'm always planning into the
future and the admin webapp will certainly need an overhaul. Using
xforms allows for much faster prototyping, so I planned to use it
throughout the app. I thus took the chance to prepare the app when I
had to extend it last time. This has nothing to do with "excitement",
it's just practical considerations.

I guess many users here would be skilled enough to write a real good
admin interface using whatever technology is best. Please help. I'd
love to concentrate on other stuff.

Wolfgang

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[Wolfgang Meier-2]

Thomas,

please excuse me as well. I'm currently uploading the release for
about the 100th time. Whenever I think it is ready, there's a new
problem which makes it obsolete ;-)

Wolfgang

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[Dmitriy Shabanov]

On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 13:30 +0000, Thomas White wrote:
> Wolfgang,
>
> I think I can help. Next two weeks I am very busy, but after that I will be
> able to dedicate some more time and come up with a new version of the admin
> webapp.

+1 for that job, not me ;) Amir working under theme API (xquery based),
next will be admin page.

Wolfgang, don't panic, we WILL have more releases, 1.4 WILL NOT be
last ... !!! upload as it & let's start next one (1.6) ;)

--
Cheers,

Dmitriy Shabanov



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[Vyacheslav Sedov]

why we need xsltforms for *admin* page? XForms plugin for Firefox and
no problem at all

2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:

> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 13:30 +0000, Thomas White wrote:
>> Wolfgang,
>>
>> I think I can help. Next two weeks I am very busy, but after that I will be
>> able to dedicate some more time and come up with a new version of the admin
>> webapp.
>
> +1 for that job, not me ;) Amir working under theme API (xquery based),
> next will be admin page.
>
> Wolfgang, don't panic, we WILL have more releases, 1.4 WILL NOT be
> last ... !!! upload as it & let's start next one (1.6) ;)
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Dmitriy Shabanov
>
>
>
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[Adam Retter-3]

2009/11/10 Vyacheslav Sedov <vyacheslav.sedov@...>:
> why we need xsltforms for *admin* page? XForms plugin for Firefox and
> no problem at all

It is unrealistic to expect people to have the XForms plugin for Firefox.

> 2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:
>> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 13:30 +0000, Thomas White wrote:
>>> Wolfgang,
>>>
>>> I think I can help. Next two weeks I am very busy, but after that I will be
>>> able to dedicate some more time and come up with a new version of the admin
>>> webapp.
>>
>> +1 for that job, not me ;) Amir working under theme API (xquery based),
>> next will be admin page.
>>
>> Wolfgang, don't panic, we WILL have more releases, 1.4 WILL NOT be
>> last ... !!! upload as it & let's start next one (1.6) ;)
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dmitriy Shabanov
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Adam Retter

eXist Developer
{ United Kingdom }
adam@...
irc://irc.freenode.net/existdb

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[Vyacheslav Sedov]

even if this people is admin of eXist-db?


2009/11/10 Adam Retter <adam@...>:

> 2009/11/10 Vyacheslav Sedov <vyacheslav.sedov@...>:
>> why we need xsltforms for *admin* page? XForms plugin for Firefox and
>> no problem at all
>
> It is unrealistic to expect people to have the XForms plugin for Firefox.
>
>
>> 2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:
>>> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 13:30 +0000, Thomas White wrote:
>>>> Wolfgang,
>>>>
>>>> I think I can help. Next two weeks I am very busy, but after that I will be
>>>> able to dedicate some more time and come up with a new version of the admin
>>>> webapp.
>>>
>>> +1 for that job, not me ;) Amir working under theme API (xquery based),
>>> next will be admin page.
>>>
>>> Wolfgang, don't panic, we WILL have more releases, 1.4 WILL NOT be
>>> last ... !!! upload as it & let's start next one (1.6) ;)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Dmitriy Shabanov
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
>>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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>>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Adam Retter
>
> eXist Developer
> { United Kingdom }
> adam@...
> irc://irc.freenode.net/existdb
>

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[thomas.0007]

Vyacheslav,

There are many organizations where one can not install what they want just
like that.

Tom




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[Loren Cahlander]

There are working environments where the systems are locked down and people are not allowed to install anything that is not officially sanctioned.  Some people are still stuck with IE6, because of some bad decisions when IE6 was out.

We want to allow for as many people to take up eXist as possible.

On Nov 10, 2009, at 09:07 AM, Vyacheslav Sedov wrote:

> even if this people is admin of eXist-db?
>
>
> 2009/11/10 Adam Retter <adam@...>:
>> 2009/11/10 Vyacheslav Sedov <vyacheslav.sedov@...>:
>>> why we need xsltforms for *admin* page? XForms plugin for Firefox and
>>> no problem at all
>>
>> It is unrealistic to expect people to have the XForms plugin for Firefox.


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[Dmitriy Shabanov]

I don't have FF, what should I do???

--
Cheers,

Dmitriy Shabanov

On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 17:54 +0300, Vyacheslav Sedov wrote:

> why we need xsltforms for *admin* page? XForms plugin for Firefox and
> no problem at all
>
> 2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:
> > On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 13:30 +0000, Thomas White wrote:
> >> Wolfgang,
> >>
> >> I think I can help. Next two weeks I am very busy, but after that I will be
> >> able to dedicate some more time and come up with a new version of the admin
> >> webapp.
> >
> > +1 for that job, not me ;) Amir working under theme API (xquery based),
> > next will be admin page.
> >
> > Wolfgang, don't panic, we WILL have more releases, 1.4 WILL NOT be
> > last ... !!! upload as it & let's start next one (1.6) ;)

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[Vyacheslav Sedov]

you want to say that you can install eXist but can`t install FF with plugin?

if company use IE6 it probably use MS SQL 2000 server instead eXist

at least we can use option in configuration (use native XForms or use xsltforms)

2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:

> I don't have FF, what should I do???
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Dmitriy Shabanov
>
> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 17:54 +0300, Vyacheslav Sedov wrote:
>> why we need xsltforms for *admin* page? XForms plugin for Firefox and
>> no problem at all
>>
>> 2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:
>> > On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 13:30 +0000, Thomas White wrote:
>> >> Wolfgang,
>> >>
>> >> I think I can help. Next two weeks I am very busy, but after that I will be
>> >> able to dedicate some more time and come up with a new version of the admin
>> >> webapp.
>> >
>> > +1 for that job, not me ;) Amir working under theme API (xquery based),
>> > next will be admin page.
>> >
>> > Wolfgang, don't panic, we WILL have more releases, 1.4 WILL NOT be
>> > last ... !!! upload as it & let's start next one (1.6) ;)
>
>
>

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[Andrew Hart CEMS Staff]

I use sparc processor and the plugin option wasn't working for me last
time I tried.  So even though I do use firefox and I can't use msie the
xslt way is better.

Vyacheslav Sedov wrote:

> you want to say that you can install eXist but can`t install FF with plugin?
>
> if company use IE6 it probably use MS SQL 2000 server instead eXist
>
> at least we can use option in configuration (use native XForms or use xsltforms)
>
> 2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:
>  
>> I don't have FF, what should I do???
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dmitriy Shabanov
>>
>> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 17:54 +0300, Vyacheslav Sedov wrote:
>>    
>>> why we need xsltforms for *admin* page? XForms plugin for Firefox and
>>> no problem at all
>>>
>>> 2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:
>>>      
>>>> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 13:30 +0000, Thomas White wrote:
>>>>        
>>>>> Wolfgang,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I can help. Next two weeks I am very busy, but after that I will be
>>>>> able to dedicate some more time and come up with a new version of the admin
>>>>> webapp.
>>>>>          
>>>> +1 for that job, not me ;) Amir working under theme API (xquery based),
>>>> next will be admin page.
>>>>
>>>> Wolfgang, don't panic, we WILL have more releases, 1.4 WILL NOT be
>>>> last ... !!! upload as it & let's start next one (1.6) ;)
>>>>        
>>
>>    
>
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[claud108]

Vox populi, vox Dei:


Please let us XForms in admin page of eXist, as I am sure that this is lightweight!

Let's go forward, not backward.

We are working here with XML, let's use it even for UI!


My two cents,
Claudius Teodorescu


     

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[FraserHore]

I have been using the firefox plugin for a long time and it's great, but it's a major limitation to be restricted to one browser and have users install a plugin.  It's also a major limitation to have to serialize to application/xml and not text/html.  For example because many javascripts it won't work in an xhtml page because xhtml doesn't allow .write.  I love xforms but I have become very frustrated with these limitations so I'm praying that Ubiquity Xforms will provide a solid cross-browser solution.  XSLTForms also seems like a great approach and if it can reach compliance with the xforms 1.1 spec then it will also be a great option.

On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Andrew Hart CEMS Staff <Andrew2.Hart@...> wrote:

I use sparc processor and the plugin option wasn't working for me last
time I tried.  So even though I do use firefox and I can't use msie the
xslt way is better.

Vyacheslav Sedov wrote:
> you want to say that you can install eXist but can`t install FF with plugin?
>
> if company use IE6 it probably use MS SQL 2000 server instead eXist
>
> at least we can use option in configuration (use native XForms or use xsltforms)
>
> 2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:
>
>> I don't have FF, what should I do???
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Dmitriy Shabanov
>>
>> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 17:54 +0300, Vyacheslav Sedov wrote:
>>
>>> why we need xsltforms for *admin* page? XForms plugin for Firefox and
>>> no problem at all
>>>
>>> 2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 13:30 +0000, Thomas White wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wolfgang,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I can help. Next two weeks I am very busy, but after that I will be
>>>>> able to dedicate some more time and come up with a new version of the admin
>>>>> webapp.
>>>>>
>>>> +1 for that job, not me ;) Amir working under theme API (xquery based),
>>>> next will be admin page.
>>>>
>>>> Wolfgang, don't panic, we WILL have more releases, 1.4 WILL NOT be
>>>> last ... !!! upload as it & let's start next one (1.6) ;)
>>>>
>>
>>
>
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[Dmitriy Shabanov]

Funny, but servers usually linux based. Workstations are windows,
because it users' decision & NOBODY in the world can force them to use
something else. That is freedom price :-)

I did try to have regulation in the field of "users' laptop software".
After several week I can say, it much more simple to create XSLTForms
than apply such rules in any company.

--
Cheers,

Dmitriy Shabanov

On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 18:39 +0300, Vyacheslav Sedov wrote:
> you want to say that you can install eXist but can`t install FF with plugin?
>
> if company use IE6 it probably use MS SQL 2000 server instead eXist
>
> at least we can use option in configuration (use native XForms or use xsltforms)
>
> 2009/11/10 Dmitriy Shabanov <shabanovd@...>:
> > I don't have FF, what should I do???



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[Peter Crowther]

2009/11/10 Vyacheslav Sedov <vyacheslav.sedov@...>:
> you want to say that you can install eXist but can`t install FF with plugin?

In many organisations I've worked with, it's possible to be fairly
flexible with server software but the desktop builds are nailed shut.
So I could install eXist, Firefox and a plugin on the server, and
manage eXist from the server.  But I couldn't install Firefox on a
client, let alone a plugin.

This would mean the sysadmins managing eXist via a remote desktop, not
via a browser.  It doesn't seem like the appropriate way to go.

- Peter

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[Wolfgang Meier-2]

Well, I'm sure the XForms issue can be sorted out. We just need more
time to look into it. Right now, it seems like the additional
transformation step takes a considerable amount of time. This could be
due to the xslt engine used (XSLTForms was originally designed to be
transformed on the client) or the way eXist calls it? Anyway, we have
to see.

I'd like to leave the final choice of an XForms engine to the user
(there are many good implementations), but the admin interface
certainly has to work without requiring plugins and should be
lightweight.

Wolfgang

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