219 vs BS05 chain specs

[Michael Moore-3]

Does anyone know what the difference is?

I've seen KZ1000 Kawasaki cam chains listed as being both 219H as on
many older Honda twins and BS05.  I've got some dimensions for 219H
but I can't find anything on a BS05 chain.  If people can run either one
on the same sprockets I'm thinking that perhaps the BS05 is a thicker
side plate as it would seem like it has to be something that doesn't
directly interface with the sprocket, like roller OD or pitch.

cheers,
Michael

[Ian D-2]

>I've seen KZ1000 Kawasaki cam chains listed as being both 219H as on
>many older Honda twins and BS05. I've got some dimensions for 219H
>but I can't find anything on a BS05 chain.


Go-Kart drive chain is the same roller diameter and 7.774mm pitch as 219H,
but is much heavier in the side-plates.

I have heard people advise against using Go-Kart chain in engines though,
not sure of the reason.



Cheers                 IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

[Arthur Middleton home]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

 

Ian wrote:

I've seen KZ1000 Kawasaki cam chains listed as being both 219H as on
many older Honda twins and BS05. I've got some dimensions for 219H
but I can't find anything on a BS05 chain.
    

Go-Kart drive chain is the same roller diameter and 7.774mm pitch as 219H,
but is much heavier in the side-plates.

I have heard people advise against using Go-Kart chain in engines though,
not sure of the reason.



Cheers                 IAN
  

Maybe because BS05 is 8mm pitch?

Arthur.

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[Ian D-2]

>>Go-Kart drive chain is the same roller diameter and 7.774mm pitch as 219H,
>>but is much heavier in the side-plates.
>Maybe because BS05 is 8mm pitch?


First thing that crossed my mind was that the "05" was an old
British standard that referred to pitch in 1/16ths - i.e. - 5/16"
( 7.938mm ).   However, I can't find any reference to support
this theory.

I've asked the question many times but never got an answer, if
anyone has any idea how the bizarre 7.774mm pitch came about,
I'd be interested to hear it.   It's not imperial ( neither fraction nor
in thou ), and certainly not metric, pretty well everything in
engineering has a historical reason; but this one has me mystified.



Cheers             IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

[Michael Moore-3]

Ian, 219H is used as a drive chain on a number of karts.  Are you
thinking of the bigger #35 kart chain not being recommended for
camchains?

Looking at cam chain fitment lists I find that CB160, XL175, XL250,
CB350, CB77, CB450 , CB550 , CB750 , Z1 , GS400/450/500 , GS650 ,
GS1000, XJ650, XS750 and XS1100 use 219H

Almost all small Japanese singles 0-125cc and XR200 (except the
XL175 which seems to have been designed more around the XL250
specs than the CB100/125) use 25H

There's also some camchains that are BF05M, BF05MA, BF05T
(XS650, SR250, KZ250).  

This morning I had better luck on searching with the BF prefix and that
appears to be a metric standard.  This is also used as a drive chain on
pocket bikes.  

http://www.fancyscooter.com/Images/chainDiagram_400.jpg
http://www.chinaenlin.com/cpjs06.htm

25H   6.35mm pitch, 3.3mm OD roller, 3.18mm wide roller.
219H 7.774mm pitch, 4.59mm OD roller, 5mm wide roller
05T    8mm pitch  4.71mm OD rollers x 4.61mm wide roller  

How 05T is considered interchangeable with 219H escapes me.

Bear with me while I convert to inches so the small sizes mean
something to me:

219H:  .306 pitch x .1807" OD roller x .1968" wide roller
BF05T: .315" pitch x .1854" OD roller x .1815" wide roller

The 05T has a higher strength than regular 219 but less than 219H
according to

 so that's why some people have grabbed on to it as an racing
"upgrade" from 219.

I suppose the BF just rides a little higher up on the teeth when used on
a 219H sprocket.


Whilst searching I found a draft of a Malaysian standard on m/c chain
and I've put a copy of that Word document on my website:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/chainstandard.doc

That's sure a lot more than I knew about small chains yesterday.

cheers,
Michael

[Ian D-2]

>219H 7.774mm pitch, 4.59mm OD roller, 5mm wide roller
>05T 8mm pitch 4.71mm OD rollers x 4.61mm wide roller
>
>How 05T is considered interchangeable with 219H escapes me.


Seems odd, 0.226 ( 9 thou ) / link seems a big difference, especially
around a typical 30 / 32T cam sprocket.


><http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/chainstandard.doc>http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/chainstandard.doc


That's going straight to the pool room.



Cheers          IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

[Ian D-2]

>I've put a copy of that Word document on my website:
>
><http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/chainstandard.doc>http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/chainstandard.doc



I can't open it Michael, and I've got a .docx convertor ??

Anyone else having problems ?



Cheers           IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

[Michael Moore-3]

Ian, it opens OK for me with Word 97.

I enquired about the 219/05 chain with a firm that makes
adjustable cam sprockets for a bike that originally had 219 and
yet sells the 05 chain, and I was told "If you measure the 219H
and the BSo5 chain, they will measure the same.  Both chains
fit the sprocket perfectly."

Maybe the 05 with bigger rollers/more pitch rides far enough out
to where it works out just right?

cheers,
Michael

[Jim Schneider-4]

I got it to open with Word 2002.
 
Swiss
 
-----Original Message-----
From: mc-engine@... [mailto:mc-engine@...] On
Behalf Of Ian
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 3:39 PM
To: mc-engine@...
Subject: Re: 219 vs BS05 chain specs


 


>I've put a copy of that Word document on my website:
>
><http://www.eurospar
<http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/chainstandard.doc>
es.com/graphics/chassis/chainstandard.doc>http://www.eurospar
<http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/chassis/chainstandard.doc>
es.com/graphics/chassis/chainstandard.doc

I can't open it Michael, and I've got a .docx convertor ??

Anyone else having problems ?

Cheers IAN

See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

[Ian D-2]

>I got it to open with Word 2002.


Actually, seems my computer wouldn't open any word document
for a couple of hours, then it came good - bug maybe ?

One kind hearted soul felt sorry for me passed it on in PDF format,
thanks.


Cheers              IAN


See www.drysdalev8.com for :
- Drysdale 750-V8 Sports & 1000-V8 Cruiser
- DRYVTECH 2x2x2 Experimental
- Carberry Enfield 1000cc V-Twin
- Drysdale Hillclimb Open Wheeler

[bateman147]

BS05M and BS05T are two different sizes.  I don't recall off the top of my
head which one is the same as 219H.  I discovered that ordering cam chains
for 160/175 racers.  Now I just use the 219 gold DID kart chain, but could
probably find which one is the match if you want.  I think you can figure it
out from the K&L catalog too - they list cam chains for CB750 in BS05, and I
think perhaps 350 too.

 

Michael

 

I enquired about the 219/05 chain with a firm that makes
adjustable cam sprockets for a bike that originally had 219 and
yet sells the 05 chain, and I was told "If you measure the 219H
and the BSo5 chain, they will measure the same. Both chains
fit the sprocket perfectly."

Maybe the 05 with bigger rollers/more pitch rides far enough out
to where it works out just right?

cheers,
Michael

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14:33:00

[Michael Moore-3]

Hi Michael,

The K&L catalog is where I usually start with comparisons like this.  My
2007 catalog shows 219H for the CB750s and CB350s

That lists BF05M, BF05MA and BF05T but of course doesn't give any
dimensions.  No mention is made of the BS05MH, that's from the
aftermarket performance-parts suppliers in a Tsubaki chain.  The
BF05M is used on just a few bikes like the SR500, the BF05T on a
larger number of mostly smaller engines (250/300 Kawasaki ATVs).  
"05T" is in the standards document with no information about the
differences in prefix or suffix letter codes.

I've also seen BF05MU and BF04MA Tsubaki cam chain listed but no
specs are given.  

FWIW, the main Tsubaki sites are just the industrial products.  I found
their mc-chain site but it only lists the rear drive chains, nothing about
the smaller cam chains.

I did find some stuff on the tsubaki.eu site

http://tsubaki.eu/assets/BS%20folder%20engels.pdf

lists an RS05B chain which is also 8mm pitch.  Nothing about the Bx05
chains though.

http://www.jml.dk/JML/grafik/sider/pdf/Tsubaki%20MC%20Timing%20Ch
ain%20Applications.pdf

That's a list of Tsubaki mc timing chain applications.  Now that shows a
CB750 SOHC as using the BF05MA chain but the Z1 with a BS05MH
chain.  Both of those are shown in other references as using 219H.  
Unfortunately no dimensions are given.

Maybe Tsubaki is taking the 05 standard and modifying it?  Otherwise I
don't see how chains with .009" pitch difference are going to measure
the same.

cheers,
Michael

[bateman147]

 
It must the be Sudco catalog then that you can see the difference in.


It's BF05M that matches with 219.  If I had to guess I'd say the modifier after the M or T probably has to do with sideplate shape or thickness, or something like that.  BF05T is the different pitch chain.  I tried quite a bit to find solid data like you have - even trying to call the chain companies engineering departments but found a rather large lack of information available on these size chains.


I finally just ordered both chains and compared them.  The BF05T won't come close to wrapping around a sprocket - the pitch is way too far off for that.  They're clearly different chains.  No idea what standard they're built to, but I know if I order a BF05M from Sudco it'll work.


Now however - I just use the kart chain.  I'm really sold on it.  DID gold-on-gold kart chain - I don't recall exactly the ident- it's something like HTH.  They make one callled gold-on-gold, then there's another one that's more expensive and fancier - better anti-wear coatings.  Not necessary in our case - the gold-on-gold is fine.  It's slightly heavier than the stock chain but lighter than the Tsubaki full sideplate chain which we've up 'til now taken as being the gold standard.  These DID chains blow the Tsubaki into the weeds - after a full season of TimO thrashing on his 175 I laid the chain next to a brand new one, and there's no apparent wear or stretch at all.  


Michael


  -------------- Original message from "Michael Moore" <mmoore@...>: --------------

 
 
   
                  Hi Michael,

The K&L catalog is where I usually start with comparisons like this.  My
2007 catalog shows 219H for the CB750s and CB350s

That lists BF05M, BF05MA and BF05T but of course doesn't give any
dimensions.  No mention is made of the BS05MH, that's from the
aftermarket performance-parts suppliers in a Tsubaki chain.  The
BF05M is used on just a few bikes like the SR500, the BF05T on a
larger number of mostly smaller engines (250/300 Kawasaki ATVs).  
"05T" is in the standards document with no information about the
differences in prefix or suffix letter codes.

I've also seen BF05MU and BF04MA Tsubaki cam chain listed but no
specs are given.  

FWIW, the main Tsubaki sites are just the industrial products.  I found
their mc-chain site but it only lists the rear drive chains, nothing about
the smaller cam chains.

I did find some stuff on the tsubaki.eu site

http://tsubaki.eu/assets/BS%20folder%20engels.pdf

lists an RS05B chain which is also 8mm pitch.  Nothing about the Bx05
chains though.

http://www.jml.dk/JML/grafik/sider/pdf/Tsubaki%20MC%20Timing%20Ch
ain%20Applications.pdf

That's a list of Tsubaki mc timing chain applications.  Now that shows a
CB750 SOHC as using the BF05MA chain but the Z1 with a BS05MH
chain.  Both of those are shown in other references as using 219H.  
Unfortunately no dimensions are given.

Maybe Tsubaki is taking the 05 standard and modifying it?  Otherwise I
don't see how chains with .009" pitch difference are going to measure
the same.

cheers,
Michael
                 
 

[Michael Moore-3]

Michael, I'm not seeing any dimensions in my Sudco catalog though it
shows the Tsubaki BF05M for the CB750.  However, in their RK chain
section they list a generic 219RZ race cam chain which is a suffix I'd
not seen before.  FWIW, I also saw a 219V kart chain.

I'm not contesting that the 219H kart chain is the one to use (and that I'll
use).  It just annoys me when standards don't stay standard.  

Q: When is a standard 8mm 05 cam chain not a standard 8mm 05 cam
chain?  
A:  When it is a something else pitch standard 05 cam chain.

:-)


cheers,
Michael

[bateman147]

 
I'm not trying to imply either catalog has any dimensions listed - just that you can sort of suss out that BF05M is the same as 219 pitch wise by knowing that the CB750 uses a 219 pitch chain, and seeing it listed as BF05M in the catalog.  Though I did end up having to order both to be sure in the long run.


You're preachin' to the choir on the standards issue.  I finally gave up.  Sorta like trying to figure out why the city council thinks/votes the way they do.  Defies all common sense and you'll drive yourself batty trying to figure it out.
 
Mike's XS lists both DID 219FTS and Tsubaki BF05T as there's a chain pitch difference between early and later XS650s for some unknown reason.  Why would Yamaha make such a change to a chain that's essentially identical except just enough difference to not match, and require retooling both cranks and cams?  Perhaps they needed the chain just <slightly> longer?  The BF05T x 102 used on the earlier bikes  is .3166" shorter than the 219FTS x 106 used on the later ones.  


The DID 219FTS chain will work fine to replace any 219 chain but having used one I wouldn't recommend it for racing - the pins are significantly smaller in diameter than stock 219 camchains.  There is an advantage in the availability of master links though.


They do clearly state that the BF05T is 8mm (.315") pitch and the 219 is 7.774mm (.3061") pitch on the website, though they don't say where that information comes from.


Wacky.


Michael




Michael, I'm not seeing any dimensions in my Sudco catalog though it
shows the Tsubaki BF05M for the CB750.  However, in their RK chain
section they list a generic 219RZ race cam chain which is a suffix I'd
not seen before.  FWIW, I also saw a 219V kart chain.

I'm not contesting that the 219H kart chain is the one to use (and that I'll
use).  It just annoys me when standards don't stay standard.  

Q: When is a standard 8mm 05 cam chain not a standard 8mm 05 cam
chain?  
A:  When it is a something else pitch standard 05 cam chain.

:-)

cheers,
Michael