4.6: new windows now start on bottom

[Grant Edwards-6]

After upgrading to 4.6, new application windows always seem to
start on the bottom of the stack (underneath existing windows).
It's obnoxious having to go digging for new windows. After 20+
years of using X, this is the first time I've seen a window
manager do this -- and it's hard to describe how annoying it
is.  I've looked in window manger settings and in window
manager tweaks, and I don't see any new options that look
relevent.

What was the reasoning behind this change?

How can I get back the old behavior (new windows start on top)?
Failing that, can anybody recommend a good window manager to
replace the XFCE 4.6 one?

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow! I want a WESSON OIL
                                  at               lease!!
                               visi.com            
_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Tony Annen]

Settings-> Window Manager-> Focus tab, under "New window focus" tick
"Automatically give focus to newly created windows"


On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:32:45 -0500
Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@...> wrote:

>
> After upgrading to 4.6, new application windows always seem to
> start on the bottom of the stack (underneath existing windows).
> It's obnoxious having to go digging for new windows. After 20+
> years of using X, this is the first time I've seen a window
> manager do this -- and it's hard to describe how annoying it
> is.  I've looked in window manger settings and in window
> manager tweaks, and I don't see any new options that look
> relevent.
>
> What was the reasoning behind this change?
>
> How can I get back the old behavior (new windows start on top)?
> Failing that, can anybody recommend a good window manager to
> replace the XFCE 4.6 one?
>

_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[John Altstatt]

Grant Edwards wrote:

> After upgrading to 4.6, new application windows always seem to
> start on the bottom of the stack (underneath existing windows).
> It's obnoxious having to go digging for new windows. After 20+
> years of using X, this is the first time I've seen a window
> manager do this -- and it's hard to describe how annoying it
> is.  I've looked in window manger settings and in window
> manager tweaks, and I don't see any new options that look
> relevent.
>
> What was the reasoning behind this change?
>
> How can I get back the old behavior (new windows start on top)?
> Failing that, can anybody recommend a good window manager to
> replace the XFCE 4.6 one?
>
>  

4.4.3
_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-06-16, Tony Annen <soul@...> wrote:

>> How can I get back the old behavior (new windows start on top)?

> Settings-> Window Manager-> Focus tab, under "New window focus" tick
> "Automatically give focus to newly created windows"

Perhaps I wasn't clear.

I want new windows to start on top of existing windows rather
than underneath them.

I don't want to give focus to newly created windows.

It's got nothing to do with focus.

--
Grant

_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-06-16, John Altstatt <jea@...> wrote:

> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> After upgrading to 4.6, new application windows always seem to
>> start on the bottom of the stack (underneath existing windows).
>> It's obnoxious having to go digging for new windows. After 20+
>> years of using X, this is the first time I've seen a window
>> manager do this -- and it's hard to describe how annoying it
>> is.  I've looked in window manger settings and in window
>> manager tweaks, and I don't see any new options that look
>> relevent.
>>
>> What was the reasoning behind this change?
>>
>> How can I get back the old behavior (new windows start on top)?
>> Failing that, can anybody recommend a good window manager to
>> replace the XFCE 4.6 one?
>
> 4.4.3

Can one safely mix versions within an XFCE installation?  There
are new signal-handling features for panel plugins that I'd
really like to use, but having new windows starting behind
existing ones is driving me nuts.  Why would anybody think
that's a good idea?

--
Grant




_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 05:02:15 +0000 (UTC)
Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@...> wrote:

> There
> are new signal-handling features for panel plugins that I'd
> really like to use, but having new windows starting behind
> existing ones is driving me nuts.  Why would anybody think
> that's a good idea?

I'm not sure the same is available on 4.6 (still at 4.4 here), but there
is an option 'Raise the window on focus'. Wouldn't that do the job?

John
_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[David Mohr-8]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:42 PM, John Coppens<john@...> wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 05:02:15 +0000 (UTC)
> Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@...> wrote:
>
>> There
>> are new signal-handling features for panel plugins that I'd
>> really like to use, but having new windows starting behind
>> existing ones is driving me nuts.  Why would anybody think
>> that's a good idea?
>
> I'm not sure the same is available on 4.6 (still at 4.4 here), but there
> is an option 'Raise the window on focus'. Wouldn't that do the job?

That option still exists in 4.6, but for what it is worth, my windows
come up on top even with "Raise on focus" disabled.

Although randomly at times I have observed windows appearing at the
bottom of the stack - it's a rare occurrence for me though.

~David
_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-06-16, David Mohr <squisher@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:42 PM, John Coppens<john@...> wrote:

>> I'm not sure the same is available on 4.6 (still at 4.4 here),
>> but there is an option 'Raise the window on focus'. Wouldn't
>> that do the job?
>
> That option still exists in 4.6, but for what it is worth, my
> windows come up on top even with "Raise on focus" disabled.

That's good -- I hate "raise on focus" almost as much as I hate
"click to focus".  As you can imagine, I find the stock MS-Windows
configuration rather difficult.

> Although randomly at times I have observed windows appearing
> at the bottom of the stack - it's a rare occurrence for me
> though.

For whatever reason, new windows pretty much always appear at
the bottom of the stack for me.

Is a "new feature", or is it a bug?

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow! Do you have exactly
                                  at               what I want in a plaid
                               visi.com            poindexter bar bat??

_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Yves-Alexis Perez-2]

On mar, 2009-06-16 at 08:43 -0600, David Mohr wrote:
> Although randomly at times I have observed windows appearing at the
> bottom of the stack - it's a rare occurrence for me though.

If those are dbus-activated (like Terminal or Thunar) it's known :)
--
Yves-Alexis

_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-06-16, Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@...> wrote:
> On mar, 2009-06-16 at 08:43 -0600, David Mohr wrote:
>
>> Although randomly at times I have observed windows appearing at the
>> bottom of the stack - it's a rare occurrence for me though.
>
> If those are dbus-activated (like Terminal or Thunar) it's known :)

What is known?

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow! FEELINGS are cascading
                                  at               over me!!!
                               visi.com            

_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Yves-Alexis Perez-2]

On mar, 2009-06-16 at 15:52 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > If those are dbus-activated (like Terminal or Thunar) it's known :)
>
> What is known?

That they won't be on top.
--
Yves-Alexis

_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[g-29]

Hi,


 >Perhaps I wasn't clear.
 >I want new windows to start on top of existing windows rather
 >than underneath them.
 >I don't want to give focus to newly created windows.>
 >It's got nothing to do with focus.

That was not possible, when i last looked for it and as i understand, it's
intended to be that way. As a workaround i use devilspie for the window
raising now.

Guido
_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-06-16, g <gmeyer1de@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>>Perhaps I wasn't clear. I want new windows to start on top of
>>existing windows rather than underneath them. I don't want to
>>give focus to newly created windows. It's got nothing to do
>>with focus.
>
> That was not possible, when i last looked for it and as i
> understand, it's intended to be that way.

That sucks.  It's a major behavior change from 4.4 (and from
all other window managers I've ever used). Can anybody explain
the reasoning behind the decision to change the default
behavior such that new windows should go on the bottom?

And for the decision not to allow it to be configured to do
something more useful?

> As a workaround i use devilspie for the window raising now.

Seems pretty lame when you've got to run something like
devilspie to get basic functionality to work right.

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow! Maybe I should have
                                  at               asked for my Neutron Bomb
                               visi.com            in PAISLEY --

_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-06-16, g <gmeyer1de@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> >Perhaps I wasn't clear.
> >I want new windows to start on top of existing windows rather
> >than underneath them.
> >I don't want to give focus to newly created windows.>
> >It's got nothing to do with focus.
>
> That was not possible, when i last looked for it and as i
> understand, it's intended to be that way. As a workaround i
> use devilspie for the window raising now.

Can you provide a hint on how to do that?  I've set up
devilspie to raise new windows (as long as they're not the
desktop window), but now the panels are broken:

 * When I put a window at the edge of the desktop, the edge is
   no longer sensitive.

 * When a panel un-hides, it's below other windows, and often
   can't be seen.  

How did the 4.6 window manager get released while it was still
so broken?

Here's my .devilspie config:

(if (not (is (application_name) "xfdesktop"))
    (begin
     (print "window_name:" (window_name))
     (println "       application_name:" (application_name))
     (above)))



--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow! I'm a fuschia bowling
                                  at               ball somewhere in Brittany
                               visi.com            

_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Yves-Alexis Perez-2]

On mer, 2009-06-17 at 17:01 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
> How did the 4.6 window manager get released while it was still
> so broken?

Come on, it's only broken for you. It works for everybody else, and you
didn't provide any indication on how to reproduce it.

Cheers,
--
Yves-Alexis


_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Ingo Arndt]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:44:26 +0200
Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@...> wrote:

> On mer, 2009-06-17 at 17:01 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> >
> > How did the 4.6 window manager get released while it was still
> > so broken?
>
> Come on, it's only broken for you. It works for everybody else, and you
> didn't provide any indication on how to reproduce it.
>

On my system (archlinux 64bit,nvidia geforce 8600gt with nvidia 180.51, xfce4.6) only the windows of panda3d applications
spawn below other windows and this only happens when I have another window on a "layer"(stack) above
the terminal window I invoke the panda3d application from.
But I haven't xfce < 4.6 available to test if it is only since xfce 4.6 and I use panda3d since a couple of days.

Maybe this information is of any help.. else just ignore my mail.

Regards,
Ingo
_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-06-17, Yves-Alexis Perez <corsac@...> wrote:
> On mer, 2009-06-17 at 17:01 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>> How did the 4.6 window manager get released while it was still
>> so broken?
>
> Come on, it's only broken for you. It works for everybody else,

Oh.  Well I guess that explains the other poster who reported
setting up devilspie to work around the problem and also the
postings in the forum complaining about it.

> and you didn't provide any indication on how to reproduce it.

I wasn't aware anybody wanted to try.  So far, I haven't been
able to find out whether this is the intended behavior or not.

What do you want to know?

Window manager config:

  [Style]

           Theme: Galaxy
      Title font: Sans Bold 9
 Title alignment: Center
   Button Layout: <greyed-out>

  [Keyboard]

      <default settings>

  [Focus]

           Focus model: Focus follows mouse
    Delay before focus: <slider at about 10%>
      New window focus: <not checked>
        Raise on focus: <not checked>
    Delay before raise: <slider at about 15%>
        Raise on click: <not checked>

  [Advanced]

     Snap windows to border: <checked>
    Snap windows to windows: <not checked>
                   Distance: <slider at 10%>

       Wrap ... screen edge: <not checked>
   Wrap ... drag off screen: <checked>
            Edge resistance: <slider at 10%>

  Hide content ... resizing: <checked>
    Hide content ... moving: <checked>

        Double click action: Maxmimize window
 
Window manager tweaks:

  [Cycling]

   Skip windows that have skip properties: <checked>
                   Include hidden windows: <checked>
             Cycle through all workspaces: <not checked>
               Draw frame around selected: <checked>

  [Focus]

      Active focus stealing prevention: <not checked>
       Honor standard ICCCM focus hint: <checked>
           When a window raises itself: Do nothing

  [Accessibility]

            Key used to grab and move windows: Alt
            Raise when any mouse button press: <not checked>
                    Hide frame when maximized: <checked>
     Restore orig size of maximized when move: <checked>
      Use edge resistance instead of snapping: <not checked>
                      Notify of urgency/blink: <not checked>
                          Keep urget blinking: <greyed out>

  [Workspaces]

             Use mouse wheel to switch: <checked>
      Remember and recall .. shortcuts: <not checked>
         Wrap depend on desktop layout: <checked>
                  Wrap when first/last: <checked>

  [Placement]

     Minimum size to trigger smart: <slider at 10%>
         By default, place windows: At the center of the screen

  [Compositor]

     Enable display compositing: <not checked>
     <remaining items all greyed>    

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow! Hold the MAYO & pass
                                  at               the COSMIC AWARENESS ...
                               visi.com            

_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Yves-Alexis Perez-2]

On mer, 2009-06-17 at 20:34 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > Come on, it's only broken for you. It works for everybody else,
>
> Oh.  Well I guess that explains the other poster who reported
> setting up devilspie to work around the problem and also the
> postings in the forum complaining about it.

I don't follow the forums, sorry. But nobody else complained on the
mailing list. xfwm 4.6 has seen releases since one year, so I ~guess~ it
could have been known before…
>
> > and you didn't provide any indication on how to reproduce it.
>
> I wasn't aware anybody wanted to try.  So far, I haven't been
> able to find out whether this is the intended behavior or not.
>
> What do you want to know?

Which apps do that. I already told not to care about Terminal and
Thunar, and some apps might have the same behaviour. But definitely the
default behavior, with default config *is* correct. How do you start the
apps and if you use startup notification.

Ho, and ranting on a mailing list (or worse, on a forum) won't lead you
anywhere. If you have the strong feeling there's a bug somewhere, the
correct place is bugzilla.xfce.org.

Cheers,
--
Yves-Alexis


_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[Joost Kremers-2]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:40:14PM +0200, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> Which apps do that. I already told not to care about Terminal and
> Thunar, and some apps might have the same behaviour. But definitely the
> default behavior, with default config *is* correct. How do you start the
> apps and if you use startup notification.

I can reproduce this behaviour, with about any app I try. With the focus
model set to "Focus follows mouse" and "Automatically give focus to newly
created windows" *unset*, new windows appear behind existing windows. Not
just Terminal, Unison does it, Freemind, Emdros, ELAN (a java app),
OpenOffice, GQview. Only exception I've found is Acrobat Reader and the
GIMP, which puts its main window on top, but any others it opens at startup
behind other windows.

This doesn't happen when "Automatically give focus to newly created
windows" is set.

IMHO I tend to agree with Grant and consider this a bug, or at least a lack
of a feature... raising and focusing (new) windows are two different things
and should be configured separately.


--
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments
_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org

[g-29]

Hi,

sorry, i forgot i made a change to devilspie.

diff src/actions.c ../devilspie-0.22_selbs/src/actions.c
556,557c556,557
<                         TRUE,
<                         my_wnck_atom_get ("_NET_WM_STATE_BELOW"),
---
 >                         FALSE,
 >                         my_wnck_atom_get ("_NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE"),

It replaces the below-action with an unabove-action.
This solves the panel problem. The other one i don't know about, because
i don't use sensitive edges.
my .devilspie/all.ds is:
(if
   (and
   (not is (window_name) "rootterm")
   (not is (window_class) "Xfdesktop")
   )
        (begin
             (above)
             (below)
        )
)

Guido

 >
 > Can you provide a hint on how to do that?  I've set up
 > devilspie to raise new windows (as long as they're not the
 > desktop window), but now the panels are broken:
 >
 >  * When I put a window at the edge of the desktop, the edge is
 >    no longer sensitive.
 >
 >  * When a panel un-hides, it's below other windows, and often
 >    can't be seen.
_______________________________________________
Xfce mailing list
Xfce@...
http://foo-projects.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
http://www.xfce.org