4.6: new windows now start on bottom

[Mike McNally-3]

> What is the most sensitive choice? What do you think the vast majority
> of users would expect?

I don't feel qualified really to make this point, but hey it's the
Internet :-)  Why is it necessary to pick a particular choice as
opposed to making it an option? Well, I guess I'll answer my own
question: as a developer, I know that every checkbox is another
problem waiting to happen. So without in an way meaning to dismiss
that legitimate concern, are there any design reasons why that
behavior choice couldn't be exposed (even via a very thoroughly-buried
setting)?

By "that behavior choice", I mean whether new unfocused windows should
appear raised or not.

Again, I'm in no way a window manager designer; I'm just somebody who
has used a lot of window managers over the past 20 years and I know
what behaviors I like. That doesn't make me right; I'm just a data
point.

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[Yves-Alexis Perez-2]

On jeu, 2009-07-09 at 13:32 -0700, Brian J. Tarricone wrote:
> On a side note (please bear with me; I don't use focus-follows-mouse, so
> I'm not familiar with all the various behaviors), xfwm4 does have a
> "raise new windows" option.  Doesn't turning that on/off do what you'd
> expect, even if you're using focus-follows-mouse?  Or does turning that
> on also focus it?

Here, using focus follow mouse on a crowded desktop:

* automatically give focus top newly created window -> xlogo is on top
and focused
* automatically give focus top newly created window unchecked -> xlogo
is on bottom and unfocused.

This is with or without “automatically raise windows when they receive
focus“. I guess this checkbox only matters when the focus is given by a
mouse/keyboard action?

But i don't think there's a “raise new window” option.

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[Chris G-6]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 01:32:13PM -0700, Brian J. Tarricone wrote:

> On 2009/07/09 13:00, Chris G wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 08:48:47PM +0100, Olivier Fourdan wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 8:10 PM, Mike McNally<emmecinque@...>  wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> I've written lots of throwaway GUI applications that show something in
>>>> a window but take all their input from a console.  For such a case,
>>>> again, I definitely want my console (xterm) command to launch that
>>>> window such that I can see it, but I also want to keep typing in my
>>>> xterm.  Another thing: I  don't necessarily raise my xterms when I
>>>> type in them - I may want to type a command in a window but keep
>>>> another window in front, because what I'm typing may affect it.
>>> But that's still a corner case. Turn it this way, if you have to
>>> choose between the two possibilities:
>>>
>>> a. Obscure the focused terminal where you are entering data with the
>>> output window (unfocused)
>>>
>>> b. Keep the focused window above the unfocused window, so you can see
>>> the data you enter
>>>
>>> What is the most sensitive choice? What do you think the vast majority
>>> of users would expect?
>>>
>> Neither!  :-)
>>
>> Open the other window overlapping but *not* totally obscuring the
>> terminal window where you are typing.  The terminal window retains
>> focus because the cursor is positioned over the still visible part of
>> the terminal window,
>
> That effectively reduces to (a).  You can't guarantee that there will be  
> room to open the other window overlapping but not totally obscuring  
> (what if the window opens maximized, or just takes up too much room). So
> what do you do then?  Completely obscure the focused window?  Well,  
> then, now your new window is focused anyway because the mouse is  
> probably over it now.
>

Yes, that's OK by me, if the new window happens to get the cursor in
it then it gets focus.


> And what happens when the new window is large enough that there's no way  
> to place it without putting a part of it under the mouse cursor?  So the  
> new window will get focus anyway and you're stuck moving your mouse back  
> to the other window.
>
That's what I'd expect to happen.


> On a side note (please bear with me; I don't use focus-follows-mouse, so  
> I'm not familiar with all the various behaviors), xfwm4 does have a  
> "raise new windows" option.  Doesn't turning that on/off do what you'd  
> expect, even if you're using focus-follows-mouse?  Or does turning that  
> on also focus it?
>
I *think* I already get what I expect, it seemed that things might be
changing such that it no longer works as it did in 4.4 (and 4.6?).

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[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-07-09, Olivier Fourdan <fourdan@...> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:16 PM, Grant Edwards<grant.b.edwards@...> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> So I filed a bug. ?A number of other people have also
>> complained about the same problem. ?We've all been told that we
>> are "wrong", the old behavior was "wrong", all other window
>> managers are "wrong" (and have been for 20 years) -- that
>> staring new windows on top doesn't "make sense".
>>
>> We're told that the new behavior (starting all new windows on
>> the bottom of the stack instead of the top) is "right", and we
>> better just shut up and be happy while the change is shoved
>> down our throats.
>
> Why don't you point the bug, And let people judge by themselves?
>
>     http://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5479
>
>
> And I can repeast it, covering the focused window with an unfocused
> one does not make sense from a usability stand.
>
> No matter that you'been using window managers for 20 years, tell me a
> single reason why covering the focused window with an unfocused one is
> a desirable behaviour.

Because it used to behave that way, users wanted it to behave
that, and they way and still do.

> Stop ranting and be _factual_

So you think there is only one true correct way for a desktop
to behave and everybody who had different preferences than you
do is being "non factual"?

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[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-07-09, Brian J. Tarricone <brian@...> wrote:

> On 2009/07/09 11:12, Mike McNally wrote:
>>
>> Here's a concrete example: I want to open up my X server so
>> that I can run from a remote machine (via SSH and port
>> forwarding) some X application. To see if things are working,
>> from a local terminal window I ssh to the remote machine, set
>> DISPLAY, and run "xlogo." Now, as soon as I see that xlogo
>> window, I know it works, and I want to hit ^C in my terminal
>> window.
>>
>> If I give new windows focus, well now I see my "xlogo" but I
>> have to re-focus in my xterm window in order to get rid of it.
>> (Well I guess I could mouse to it and click it's titlebar "X"
>> but that'd be even harder).  If I don't give new windows
>> focus, then I don't see my xlogo at all unless I go hunting
>> for it.
>
> Wouldn't this set of conditions work?
>
> 1.  New windows in focus-follows-mouse aren't raised all the
>     way, but are placed in the stacking order directly underneath
>     the focused window.

If the desire is to have the new window placed on top of the
stack [as has been stated], then placing it somewhere that's
not the top of the stack won't "work".

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[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-07-09, Chris G <cl@...> wrote:

>> I've written lots of throwaway GUI applications that show something in
>> a window but take all their input from a console.  For such a case,
>> again, I definitely want my console (xterm) command to launch that
>> window such that I can see it, but I also want to keep typing in my
>> xterm.  Another thing: I  don't necessarily raise my xterms when I
>> type in them - I may want to type a command in a window but keep
>> another window in front, because what I'm typing may affect it.
>
> That sounds very much what I want from a Window Manager/GUI.  I very
> often type into a terminal window which is underneath another window
> where I am seeing what results from the typing.  If the cursor is on
> the terminal window I want it to keep focus but I also want another
> window to be able to overlay parts of that terminal window.

I do that a lot as well.

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[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-07-09, Brian J. Tarricone <brian@...> wrote:

> On a side note (please bear with me; I don't use focus-follows-mouse, so
> I'm not familiar with all the various behaviors), xfwm4 does have a
> "raise new windows" option.

Where?

> Doesn't turning that on/off do what you'd expect, even if
> you're using focus-follows-mouse?  Or does turning that on
> also focus it?

That's the option we've been asking for.

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[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-07-09, Net Llama! <netllama@...> wrote:

> I just got afflicted by this after upgrading from Fedora10 to
> 11.  I can't quite figure out from the thread below who is
> advocating what, however I find it very annoying that new
> windows now appear *under*/behind pre-existing windows.

Welcome to being "wrong", making "no sense", and being non
"factual".

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[Net Llama!]

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 7:51 AM, Grant Edwards<grant.b.edwards@...> wrote:

> On 2009-07-09, Net Llama! <netllama@...> wrote:
>
>> I just got afflicted by this after upgrading from Fedora10 to
>> 11.  I can't quite figure out from the thread below who is
>> advocating what, however I find it very annoying that new
>> windows now appear *under*/behind pre-existing windows.
>
> Welcome to being "wrong", making "no sense", and being non
> "factual".
>

*sigh*  Everything related to Fedora11 has been a complete
disappointment for me.



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[Joost Kremers-2]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 06:57:25PM +0100, Olivier Fourdan wrote:
> No matter that you'been using window managers for 20 years, tell me a
> single reason why covering the focused window with an unfocused one is
> a desirable behaviour.

oh, i do this all the time. i keep the programs that i use a lot maximised (each
on its own desktop) and it happens all the time that i want another program
(often but not always a utility of some sort) to remain visible even if i focus
the maximised window behind it.

skype would be a typical example, but also something like a character map or a
text editor that contains some notes. or an mp3 player, an xterm with showing
some log file, etc. etc.
 

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[Brian J. Tarricone-3]

On 07/13/2009 07:51 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2009-07-09, Net Llama!<netllama@...>  wrote:
>
>> I just got afflicted by this after upgrading from Fedora10 to
>> 11.  I can't quite figure out from the thread below who is
>> advocating what, however I find it very annoying that new
>> windows now appear *under*/behind pre-existing windows.
>
> Welcome to being "wrong", making "no sense", and being non
> "factual".

This discussion is going nowhere, and will continue to go nowhere as
long as you adopt this hostile attitude.  I suggest you clean up your
act, or, better yet, just use another window manager and quit being a
nuisance.

Whatever you may believe, no one is under any obligation to change their
software to behave in any particular way.

        -brian
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[Net Llama!]

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Brian J. Tarricone<brian@...> wrote:

> On 07/13/2009 07:51 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>> On 2009-07-09, Net Llama!<netllama@...>  wrote:
>>
>>> I just got afflicted by this after upgrading from Fedora10 to
>>> 11.  I can't quite figure out from the thread below who is
>>> advocating what, however I find it very annoying that new
>>> windows now appear *under*/behind pre-existing windows.
>>
>> Welcome to being "wrong", making "no sense", and being non
>> "factual".
>
> This discussion is going nowhere, and will continue to go nowhere as long as
> you adopt this hostile attitude.  I suggest you clean up your act, or,
> better yet, just use another window manager and quit being a nuisance.

Wow.  So your request to anyone who isn't happy with changes to XFCE
is to stop using it?



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[Brian J. Tarricone-3]

On 07/13/2009 11:04 AM, Net Llama! wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Brian J. Tarricone<brian@...>  wrote:
>> On 07/13/2009 07:51 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2009-07-09, Net Llama!<netllama@...>    wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just got afflicted by this after upgrading from Fedora10 to
>>>> 11.  I can't quite figure out from the thread below who is
>>>> advocating what, however I find it very annoying that new
>>>> windows now appear *under*/behind pre-existing windows.
>>> Welcome to being "wrong", making "no sense", and being non
>>> "factual".
>> This discussion is going nowhere, and will continue to go nowhere as long as
>> you adopt this hostile attitude.  I suggest you clean up your act, or,
>> better yet, just use another window manager and quit being a nuisance.
>
> Wow.  So your request to anyone who isn't happy with changes to XFCE
> is to stop using it?

Please learn how to read.  After you've done so, come back, and we can
have a useful discussion.

        -brian
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[Net Llama!]

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Brian J. Tarricone<brian@...> wrote:

> On 07/13/2009 11:04 AM, Net Llama! wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Brian J. Tarricone<brian@...>
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 07/13/2009 07:51 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 2009-07-09, Net Llama!<netllama@...>    wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I just got afflicted by this after upgrading from Fedora10 to
>>>>> 11.  I can't quite figure out from the thread below who is
>>>>> advocating what, however I find it very annoying that new
>>>>> windows now appear *under*/behind pre-existing windows.
>>>>
>>>> Welcome to being "wrong", making "no sense", and being non
>>>> "factual".
>>>
>>> This discussion is going nowhere, and will continue to go nowhere as long
>>> as
>>> you adopt this hostile attitude.  I suggest you clean up your act, or,
>>> better yet, just use another window manager and quit being a nuisance.
>>
>> Wow.  So your request to anyone who isn't happy with changes to XFCE
>> is to stop using it?
>
> Please learn how to read.  After you've done so, come back, and we can have
> a useful discussion.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Do let me know when you're finished going off on a tirade and
insulting your userbase.


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[Brian J. Tarricone-3]

On 07/13/2009 11:11 AM, Net Llama! wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Brian J. Tarricone<brian@...>  wrote:
>> On 07/13/2009 11:04 AM, Net Llama! wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Brian J. Tarricone<brian@...>
>>>   wrote:
>>>> On 07/13/2009 07:51 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>>> On 2009-07-09, Net Llama!<netllama@...>      wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I just got afflicted by this after upgrading from Fedora10 to
>>>>>> 11.  I can't quite figure out from the thread below who is
>>>>>> advocating what, however I find it very annoying that new
>>>>>> windows now appear *under*/behind pre-existing windows.
>>>>> Welcome to being "wrong", making "no sense", and being non
>>>>> "factual".
>>>> This discussion is going nowhere, and will continue to go nowhere as long
>>>> as
>>>> you adopt this hostile attitude.  I suggest you clean up your act, or,
>>>> better yet, just use another window manager and quit being a nuisance.
>>> Wow.  So your request to anyone who isn't happy with changes to XFCE
>>> is to stop using it?
>> Please learn how to read.  After you've done so, come back, and we can have
>> a useful discussion.
>
> Pot. Kettle. Black.

My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you.

> Do let me know when you're finished going off on a tirade and
> insulting your userbase.

I only insult those who poison the mailing lists and community, and
waste the valuable time of our contributors.

I'll say it again: this discussion will continue to go nowhere if
certain participants insist on adopting an attitude of entitlement.  If
you don't like how something works, that's fine!  It happens all the
time.  But repeatedly asserting "that sucks" and "that's pretty lame"
and responding to people with messages laced with sarcasm won't get you
what you want (as has occurred several times in this thread).  I can
understand that a new behavior that doesn't fit with your workflow can
be disconcerting and frustrating to get used to.  And maybe sometimes
the change isn't the right way to go.  But insisting that your way is
right and demanding changes or new options isn't going to get you what
you want.  If you're fine with that and are only here because you want
to vent, I'm here to inform you that this is not the place for it.

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[Grant Edwards-6]

On 2009-07-13, Net Llama! <netllama@...> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Brian J. Tarricone<brian@...> wrote:
>> On 07/13/2009 07:51 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2009-07-09, Net Llama!<netllama@...> ??wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just got afflicted by this after upgrading from Fedora10 to
>>>> 11. ??I can't quite figure out from the thread below who is
>>>> advocating what, however I find it very annoying that new
>>>> windows now appear *under*/behind pre-existing windows.
>>>
>>> Welcome to being "wrong", making "no sense", and being non
>>> "factual".
>>
>> This discussion is going nowhere,

Obviously.  All the related bug reports have been marked
"duplicate" and "invalid", the decision has been made that they
aren't going to be fixed, and those of us who filed the bug
reports have been told we were wrong and that we work in
a nonsensical manner.

>> and will continue to go nowhere as long as you adopt this
>> hostile attitude.

My hostile attitude?  I was just adopting the attitude I was
shown.

>> I suggest you clean up your act, or, better yet, just use
>> another window manager and quit being a nuisance.
>
> Wow.  So your request to anyone who isn't happy with changes
> to XFCE is to stop using it?

In a word? Yes.

Can anybody could recommend other window managers that work
well with XFCE desktop and panel?

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[Net Llama!]

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Brian J. Tarricone<brian@...> wrote:

> On 07/13/2009 11:11 AM, Net Llama! wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Brian J. Tarricone<brian@...>
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 07/13/2009 11:04 AM, Net Llama! wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Brian J.
>>>> Tarricone<brian@...>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 07/13/2009 07:51 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2009-07-09, Net Llama!<netllama@...>      wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just got afflicted by this after upgrading from Fedora10 to
>>>>>>> 11.  I can't quite figure out from the thread below who is
>>>>>>> advocating what, however I find it very annoying that new
>>>>>>> windows now appear *under*/behind pre-existing windows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Welcome to being "wrong", making "no sense", and being non
>>>>>> "factual".
>>>>>
>>>>> This discussion is going nowhere, and will continue to go nowhere as
>>>>> long
>>>>> as
>>>>> you adopt this hostile attitude.  I suggest you clean up your act, or,
>>>>> better yet, just use another window manager and quit being a nuisance.
>>>>
>>>> Wow.  So your request to anyone who isn't happy with changes to XFCE
>>>> is to stop using it?
>>>
>>> Please learn how to read.  After you've done so, come back, and we can
>>> have
>>> a useful discussion.
>>
>> Pot. Kettle. Black.
>
> My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you.

Clearly not based on your attacks on me.

>
>> Do let me know when you're finished going off on a tirade and
>> insulting your userbase.
>
> I only insult those who poison the mailing lists and community, and waste
> the valuable time of our contributors.

Thus far today, you're the only one who has poisoned anything, and
you're choosing to waste your own time attacking multiple users who
are attempting to provide feedback.

>
> I'll say it again: this discussion will continue to go nowhere if certain
> participants insist on adopting an attitude of entitlement.  If you don't
> like how something works, that's fine!  It happens all the time.  But
> repeatedly asserting "that sucks" and "that's pretty lame" and responding to
> people with messages laced with sarcasm won't get you what you want (as has
> occurred several times in this thread).  I can understand that a new
> behavior that doesn't fit with your workflow can be disconcerting and
> frustrating to get used to.  And maybe sometimes the change isn't the right
> way to go.  But insisting that your way is right and demanding changes or
> new options isn't going to get you what you want.  If you're fine with that
> and are only here because you want to vent, I'm here to inform you that this
> is not the place for it.

At no time did I insist my way was right, nor did I demand changes or
new options.  And for the record, I've likely been on this list before
you were even an XFCE developer, so no I'm not here to vent.

To refresh your memory, here's my original contribution to this thread:
http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce/2009-July/025538.html

No demands, no attacks, no poison. A simple comment, which went
ignored by the developers until your attack on me this morning.

I can also go and point out the other threads in which I've
contributed recently which have also failed to receive any response
from anyone.  The evidence indicates that all you seem interested in
doing is attacking anyone who doesn't agree with you, and ignoring
everyone else.

Its sad that XFCE has lost interest in its userbase if this is deemed
acceptable behavior.  I've been using XFCE for over 10 years, but
clearly no one cares about that.


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[Net Llama!]

On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Grant
Edwards<grant.b.edwards@...> wrote:
> Can anybody could recommend other window managers that work
> well with XFCE desktop and panel?


I'll second that request.


--
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L. Friedman                                    netllama@...
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[Mike McNally-3]

> I'll say it again: this discussion will continue to go nowhere if certain
> participants insist on adopting an attitude of entitlement.

That's certainly true, and it's clearly true that nobody deserves
anything for nothing. Speaking for myself I'm grateful to have this
stuff at all, and that's something I think about a lot.

At the same time, it's a little off-putting to hear that explanations
- solicited explanations, at that - of why a particular behavior is
personally desirable represent "corner cases" or "doing it wrong."
Those statements may be true, but it's like a bar has to be reached in
order for something to be a valid need.  That too is OK - it'd help
however to know how interesting a use case has to be in order for it
not to be dismissed.



--
Turtle, turtle, on the ground,
Pink and shiny, turn around.
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[Jannis Pohlmann-3]

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:50:31 -0700
"Net Llama!" <netllama@...> wrote:

> Its sad that XFCE has lost interest in its userbase if this is deemed
> acceptable behavior.

I'm sorry, but this is complete bullshit. Guys, don't get involved in
this too personally, this helps nobody. Calm down and do something more
useful with your time. I'm pretty sure this topic will be discussed
again at some point, but right now, with all the heat, is not the
right time to continue this discussion.

  - Jannis


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