Nabble - 4D

Re: 4D Insider

2009-11-12T06:11:48Z

Thanks for the tip! I'll try that.

On Nov 12, 2009, at 9:00 AM, Mike Placko wrote:

> Drag and Drop them from one to the other, only works with 2 v11
> databases.
> Most of insiders functionality is available in the standard 4D
> application
> now.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> Mike Placko
> NowData Corporation
> 2970 Judicial Rd. Suite 210
> Burnsville, MN 55337
> 952-808-0504 ext. 208
> mike@...
> http://www.nowdata.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 4DBasics@... [mailto:4DBasics@...] On Behalf
> Of Daniel
> Child
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:57 PM
> To: 4D Basics List
> Subject: 4D Insider
>
> Hi All,
>
> I used to use 4D Insider in Mac OS 9. Has it been phased out for 4D
> SQL? If you want to copy tables from one database to another, what do
> you use now?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Daniel
>
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From forum: 4D Basics

RE: 4D Insider

2009-11-12T06:00:46Z

Drag and Drop them from one to the other, only works with 2 v11 databases.
Most of insiders functionality is available in the standard 4D application
now.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike Placko
NowData Corporation
2970 Judicial Rd. Suite 210
Burnsville, MN 55337
952-808-0504 ext. 208
mike@...
http://www.nowdata.com

-----Original Message-----
From: 4DBasics@... [mailto:4DBasics@...] On Behalf Of Daniel
Child
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:57 PM
To: 4D Basics List
Subject: 4D Insider

Hi All,

I used to use 4D Insider in Mac OS 9. Has it been phased out for 4D
SQL? If you want to copy tables from one database to another, what do
you use now?

Thanks.

Daniel

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From forum: 4D Basics

Re: Testing if two lines or vectors intersect/overlap

2009-11-12T05:00:18Z

Aha, now I can see what type of scheduling you are talking about.

Yours is a scheduler for Events plus multiple resources on each event
(rooms, people, material, ...).

There many types of 'scheduling' applications. I've done a couple and
each has its own needs and requirements. Hard to have a 'generic'
scheduler.
You have 'appointment schedulers', iCal type applications, where you
have 1 single resource (the calendar) and you book time on that
resource (events).
Sometimes that is all you have. Events basically have a description
and some metadata, but link to no other Entity.
For that type of 'agenda scheduler' you have essentially one entity,
Events. If you allow multiple calendars then you need an extra one
(Calendars). Data model here is simple Calendar->Event, or more
generically Resource->Event.
Usually no need for conflict resolution here, as that can be easily
accomplished by not allowing double-booking.

One other type allows for tracking of who/what is referred to/
responsible for an Event. Most of the time People. Here each Event is
linked to another Entity representing who/what is being booked.
Typical example is a Doctor's appointment book, where you have the
need to track the Patient booked for an Event.
Here you basically have a Event->Patient data model, or if you track
multiple Calendars (Doctors), you'd have Doctor->Event->Patient.
Same as above conflict resolution is usually accomplished by avoiding
the creation of overlapping events (not entirely true in real life as
dr's tend to book multiple patients at the same time and let conflict
resolution be handled by front desk, shuffling patients in multiple
rooms).

A third type covers the case where you need to track multiple
resources linked to each Event. It can be rooms, people, people in
different roles (chair/teacher & attendants), material (projector,
computer,..). Or courses, class rooms, teachers & students, etc.
In that situation I like to look at it as an expanded version of type
one above, where you treat each 'resource' as a "calendar", thus you
can look at all Events for "room 123", or all Events for David as
teacher, or all Events for David as attendant, or all Events for
"projector 123".
That requires a variation on the data model to allow for multiple
'resources' sharing/referring to the same Event. Thus we would have
Resource <- ResourceEvents -> Event.
Of course you usually need a very different set of metadata for each
type of resource and that implies the need to break down Resource &
ResourceEvents into multiple Entities, e.g., People & PeopleEvents,
Room & RoomEvents, etc.
Yours seems the be this latest case. Here conflict resolution can be
tricky (reason why you started this thread :)). In this case the
simple collision avoidance is not enough as you are dealing with
conflicts amongst multiple Calendars (resources). Rules for double
booking are different for each resource type, you can double book
attendants to an event, but each attendant cannot be double booked to
multiple events.
So, I'd suggest you review your data model to allow for nXn
relationship between Events and resources. That would make it easy to
implement generic validation and conflict resolution rules/algorithms.

Besides all that, in each type/class of scheduling app you may have
the need for 'recurring events'. How do you handle those? Do you have
a single Event record and generate 'virtual events' as needed for
validation/display/report? In that case, how do you deal with conflict
resolution?
Or you may generate 'real' Events for each occurrence? How do you
limit them in time, you need a finite # of records?
What if you want to make changes to the events? Do you allow changes
to a single occurrence? Do you allow changes to all occurrences?
This is probably a topic for another book :-)

And there is still one fourth type, exemplified by TV program
scheduling (of which I have a bit of experience ;-)). This is sort of
a variation on the second type with the difference that you have
Channel->Event->Program, but there you have a ton of business rules
governing how/when programs are/can/must be scheduled. And those
business rules vary according to the type of 'program' being scheduled
(sitcom episode, movie, commercial, promos, etc).

cheers,
julio

On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:17 PM, David Adams wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 6:19 AM, Alan Chan <alan@...> wrote:
>
>> Depends on how far your scheduling application would go, I think the
>> design of the structure will affect your query algorithm.
>
> I'm sorting out algorithms first. What I'm imagining now is a
> generalized [Event] table with something like this:
>
> Event_ID
> Start_Date
> Start_Time
> Start_Signature ` 2009-11-15-23250
> End_Date
> End_Time
> End_Signature
> Room_ID
>
> ...and a bunch of other fields for GUI-specific and possibly
> logic-related stuff. For example:
>
> Event_Is_Locked_to_Changes
> Event_Lasts_All_Day
>
> ...and I'll assume I'll need some sort of a scheme for blocking out
> holidays/building closure days of one sort or another.
>
> I'm imagining linking to other people like so:
>
>
> [Event] ---> [Room]
>
> An [Event] occurs in a specific room.
>
> [Event] <--> [Person]
>
> An event may have many people, a person may participate in many
> events.
>
> I'm imagining building out events as actual records. So, if a meeting
> happens ever Tuesday for the next year, there will be 52 records.
>
> Again, none of this is coded now - I'm sorting through options before
> building the structure or code.
>
>
>> 3) Resources such as "meeting room with capacity (require a meeting
>> room
>> that could accomodate 12 persons)"
>
> The most important conflicts to avoid are
>
> meeting room - can't have double-booking
> meeting facilitator - the chair of the meeting can't be double-
> booked.
>
> Meeting attendees can look after themselves - it won't stop a meeting
> from being scheduled. All I want for attendee conflicts is to be able
> to detect such conflicts in their schedules easily.
>
>> 4) Resources such as travelling arrangement - require a Van for 12
>> persons
>> or 3 cars for 4 persons each ... etc?
>
> Nope, none such.
>
>> 5) Resources required such as "projector required" - need to check
>> available projector
> Nope. The only resources are the chair/facilitator and the room
> itself.
>
>> 6) Will the system require to register cost automatically for event
>> that
>> requires all these resources? Will the system alert you if total
>> cost of
>> the even exceed predefined budget?
> This doesn't matter to us.
>
>> Will the system popup list to allow users to select available
>> Resources,
>> any available group member ... etc during entry? Will this be
>> optimised to
>> work over the Internet?
> Internet is possible some day, primarily for display. I'm expecting to
> use hmCal for the user interface.
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From forum: 4D Tech

SVG Charts

2009-11-12T04:31:01Z

I did not attend the summit and I'm trying to wrap my head around creating SVG charts.

So far I've read about 3 ways (I think) to go about producing SVG charts:

1) 4D SVG Component
2) Creating the SVG XML on the fly
3) Store an SVG XML template and use PROCESS HTML TAGS to customize the chart on the fly

I have many forms in a database that consist of an AreaList and a graph below it. The user navigates the AreaList rows (sometimes rather quickly) and the chart area is updated automatically with each new row selection. I currently use 4D Chart, not the GRAPH command.

My question is, which would be the most efficient way of creating these charts using SVG? Also, if producing the SVG XML on the fly is the best approach, which mode, DOM or SAX? I'm assuming DOM, since most will hold minimal XML data.

Lastly, will 4D Chart eventually be phased out?

Many Thanks,
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: Developer Wanted for Small Project Mid 201

2009-11-12T02:49:15Z

Peter, hi there.
I am an Auckland based 4D developer.
Although I am currently fully committed for the foreseeable future on
a large project, feel free to contact me if you need to ask something
(although the 4D NUG is the best place to ask almost anything :-).
I hope you get many replies, and I wish you every success in your
venture.
Cheers, Keith
There are 3 kinds of mathematician. Those who can count, and those
who can't.

On 12/11/2009, at 11:40 AM, 4d_tech-request@... wrote:

> From: Peter Burgess <peter.burgess.4dlist@...>
> Date: 12 November 2009 10:31:00 AM
> To: 4D iNug Tech <4d_tech@...>
> Subject: Developer Wanted for Small Project Mid 2010
> Reply-To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@...>
>
>
> Hi people.
> I am requesting expressions of interest from 4D Developers for a small
> project that is possibly going to hit our company mid 2010.
> It will involve the transformation of a small database currently
> running in
> dBase IV, into one that operates in 4D. Probably as a component,
> that can
> interface to our existing 4D Client-Server setup.
> We are presently running 4D 2004 but are looking to upgrade to v11
> before
> the project hits.
> I anticipate approximately 250 hours of work to enable the existing
> database
> to be transformed.
> Could probably be done completely off-site, but as a site visit would
> undoubtedly be highly beneficial this project would suit a
> developer in the
> Australasian area. We are a New Zealand company.
> Please e-mail me off-list if you have an interest in working on this
> project.
>
> Regards,
> Pete

From forum: 4D Tech

Re: 4Dv11.5 MC3 -> Integer 64 bits field -> string() -> output blank -> only if compiled

2009-11-12T02:46:44Z

Thank you very much. I do appreciate you valiant efforts to reproduce and
file a bug report. I will wait for the fix to implement a generic function
In the mean time I have done just a few tables function using CAST which
does work:

Begin SQL
SELECT id,CAST(timestamp_created AS VARCHAR) FROM table WHERE ....

End SQL

Balinder - www.tenthmatrix.co.uk

2009/11/12 miyako <miyako@...>

> ...and notified engineering of the problem.
>
> miyako
>
> ACI0063948: The String function does not accept pointer to Integer 64bits
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: New behavior cause data corruption in v11

2009-11-12T00:08:25Z

Alan Chan wrote:

> When making a delivery, what the trigger would check to following to see
> if the delivery is allowed to be done or not:
>
> 1) is the item available in inventory
> 2) if the inventory is available, if the inventory was booked by someone
> else
> 3) after the delivery, would this customer exceed its credit limit
> 4) If it exceed credit limit, if the user who does the entry have the
> authority to override it
> 5) if it does exceed credit limit, does this customer has delinquent
> payment
> 5) if this delivery would exceed its ordered qty, if it does, does it
> exceed allowable overshipment qty.
> 6) if all passed, update all related tables
> 7) if any of above failed, it roll back and return predefined error code
> that user know exactly why the delivery is rejected.
>
> The above is example of what our trigger does. It is simplified for the
> sake of illustration. It would be more complex if it involves warehouse
> location, batch control and serial numbers.
>
> If all of the above was done over slow WAN, it would be infeasible. Using
> trigger, it is instant. Not much difference from a busy LAN.

Well, you could make this fast on a WAN even without triggers.
I am working on a very old database that is now in 4D 2004. Some operations like the above take a looong time if executed over a WAN (or even a LAN).
What I´m thinking about to do is, to let the server handle all the work, so that no records would have to be sent to the client.
I have a "tools"-process running on the server that is accepting requests from clients. So in the above case a client would call that "tool"-process and ask "Can the delivery be made?". The "tool"-process would then check all the above and return the appropriate answer to the client without the need to transfer a single record.
I have to admit that I don´t have a large userbase like you do, but I think it should work in your case as well.

Please don´t get me wrong: I don´t want to imply that you should rewrite your whole application, nor do I want to excuse 4D for changes in trigger behaviour. All I want to say is, that the above case can be handled in a timely manner without the use of triggers.

Greetings from Germany,
Bernd Fröhlich
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From forum: 4D Tech

RE: New behavior cause data corruption in v11

2009-11-11T23:47:39Z

> It's a shame that 4D seems to hate triggers now

I am working since 21 years for 4D in a leading position, please excuse me if I would like to disagree.

Triggers in 4D v11 SQL are faster than any time before. There was several improvements done to speed them up. While in v2004 and before an executed trigger was blocking other trigger, this is not the case anymore.

While triggers don't 'scale' to several CPU's, please excuse me, but that does not mean they cannot run simultanly.

For many many years computers had had one CPU. We had customers with up to 100 clients (some even more) - while the server had only one CPU. And german business applications have strong rules and heavy coding.

So if for many years all this was running in one single CPU/core - and we now are able to scale/move many many operations to other cores, why does that now makes it impossible to write strong business apps?

If you create records, there are huge (internal) tasks to do. The record must be kept in cache, cache flushed to disk, inserted in address tables, check sums must be calculated. Index pages must be updated, index address tables reorganised - and I guess you have several indexes per table.
And in most business apps (there are enough statistics to find in the web about this) uses 10 x more reads then writes.

All these operations - starting with v11 - are using other cores - and so making the ONE core used from Triggers free - only used from 4D code running on the server. A small part is kept on that core - while many other tasks are moved to other cores.

This improves the speed drastically.

> I guess you haven't tested performance on operation with 4D SQL and 4D
languages on real world loading:-)

I did. I spend most part of my live with large 4D applications in real world situations, working with large german OEM customers to improve their apps.

If your application does not run in a real world environment (benchmarks can prove anything - check your app in live) faster than v2004 there is something wrong.

We had cases on bad hardware (no fun, customer was using a server with 512 MB RAM to run 20 clients) where it was slower, but I guess this is not your case?

Contact your local tech support to track that down so it can be fixed.

Use the network log to check if it is related to network transfer time/jobs. It shows number and size of each package transferred from/to 4D Server.
Use the debug log to check code running on the server. It shows what is executed and how long it needed.

Compare that with v2004 values, should be easy to identify the bottleneck.

Don't simply say "it must be triggers" or "it must be that". That's a guess - and will not help to do anything useful. Track it down - to allow us to fix it.

If you are still on v2003 it will be harder to compare, as v2003 did not supported writing a debug log. You would need to do that yourself to compare and find the issue.

>From my experience: there is nothing only good or bad.
Triggers are not just good or bad.
Server Procedures are not good or bad.
Running code on the server is not good or bad.

It is great/perfect/fantastic in some cases - and not in others.

If a trigger needs 2 seconds to execute I guess it is not good and will hurt the application.

Triggers in 4D are not designed to run the whole application. That is a fact. 4D allows to run code on Client and on Server and is designed for that mix.

But working since 20 years with top 4D developers in Germany/Austria helping them to speed up their application and increase their business, I rarely have seen a full featured successful business application without triggers.

Thomas Maul
4D Germany
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: Extended characters in a web service result

2009-11-11T22:49:19Z

Tank you Miyako

Johan Braun, Senior consultant and partner.

Generera Datautveckling AB
j.braun@...
+46705932264

12 nov 2009 kl. 06.30 skrev miyako:

> Johan,
>
> here is link to the w3c documentation on "soap:VersionMismatch"
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-soap12-part1-20011002/#faultcodes
>
> meanwhile the problem is reported to engineering as;
>
> ACI0063949: GET WEB SERVICE RESULT (Web Service Manual) changes
> extended characters
>
> Regards,
>
> miyako
>
> On 2009/11/11, at 18:35, Johan Braun wrote:
>
>> <faultcode>soap:VersionMismatch</faultcode><faultstring>"http://main.accounts.alfamoving.se/
>> ", the namespace on the "getShortInfoInternal" element, is not a
>> valid SOAP version.</faultstring>
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: Outlook Addin Plugin (Owen Watson)

2009-11-11T22:48:43Z

Owen,

>What issues are you having? I'm interested in the plugin for
appointment import/export.

Firstly, my environment is v11.4 with unicode mode on. When I first
tried to use the plug-in there was very little that actually worked.
This was over a year ago and Climbway responded very quickly to
release a new version which involved upgrading not only the plug-in
but the Outlook component and the VB.net framework that it uses.
Since then I have only been using it for email transfer. Both sending
emails from 4D through Outlook and receiving emails into 4D from
Outlook.

This works well although we took a decision early on to not collect
everything coming in from Outlook and simply have the user push the
items they want to over to 4D. Picking up all traffic simply
overloads the connection between the two and we were getting crashes.
I geuss we could have been more sophisticated by setting up filters in
Outlook then checking specific folders for transfer but the client was
happy with the push.

So a year down the line and start thinking that I would like to do
appointments, tasks and notes. All of which I had the framework
structure for and the code written but not tested r implemented. What
I found was that details sent between 4D and Outlook on Appointments,
Tasks and Notes were being truncated to a single character rendering
it completely useless. I have reported this and had the response on a
number of occasions the developer is busy we will get back to you. I
got a slightly more positive response in the last few days but no
solution yet.

The other issue I am having is that at another client site who want
this solution when testing I found that I could not install it on the
computers without admin rights. Also once installed it seems to need
admin rights to stay present and run. So I have asked what specific
admin rights I need to ask my clients IT company to enable and I am
still awaiting a response.

It is a very powerful tool if I can ever get it fully working.

Regards, Dougie

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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: Extended characters in a web service result

2009-11-11T21:29:36Z

Johan,

here is link to the w3c documentation on "soap:VersionMismatch"

http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/WD-soap12-part1-20011002/#faultcodes

meanwhile the problem is reported to engineering as;

ACI0063949: GET WEB SERVICE RESULT (Web Service Manual) changes extended characters

Regards,

miyako

On 2009/11/11, at 18:35, Johan Braun wrote:

> <faultcode>soap:VersionMismatch</faultcode><faultstring>"http://main.accounts.alfamoving.se/", the namespace on the "getShortInfoInternal" element, is not a valid SOAP version.</faultstring>
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From forum: 4D Tech

4D Insider

2009-11-11T02:24:44Z

Hi All,

I used to use 4D Insider in Mac OS 9. Has it been phased out for 4D
SQL? If you want to copy tables from one database to another, what do
you use now?

Thanks.

Daniel

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From forum: 4D Basics

Re: Scheduling: Comparing every appointment to every other appointment time efficiently

2009-11-11T20:55:37Z

David,

I should have said log 2 of N (or log e of N- not sure which). In computer
algorithm terms, N log N (or N*N, or whatever) will be pretty imprecise for
calculating exact numbers of operations. Generally, discussion of computer
algorithm times are prefaced with "on the order of". So, with N=1000, your
computation time is "on the order of" 10,000 operations. Still-
much better than
N*N which is on the order of 1,000,000 operations.

>On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Doug Cottrill <dkc@...> wrote:
>> David,
>>
>> I think the best you'll be able to do is N*(log(N)). In some cases this
>> will be N*2, but not in the general case.
>
>N * (Log(N)) would be good enough, I'd say. That should make it cost
>about 3,000 comparisons for a 1,000 starting selection - I can deal
>with that kind of ratio.

--
Doug Cottrill
PTM Software, LLC

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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: Scheduling: Comparing every appointment to every other appointment time efficiently

2009-11-11T20:17:58Z

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Doug Cottrill <dkc@...> wrote:
> David,
>
> I think the best you'll be able to do is N*(log(N)). In some cases this
> will be N*2, but not in the general case.

N * (Log(N)) would be good enough, I'd say. That should make it cost
about 3,000 comparisons for a 1,000 starting selection - I can deal
with that kind of ratio.

> General Idea:
> sort the list by start date/time first
> For each record:
> use an intelligent search (log N) to find the first record after
> your selected record with a start time before your selected record
> end time. if no record is found, you are done. If a record is found
> you have your first conflict and the subsequent conflicts will be
> sequentially after this one until the start time of the next record
> is after your selected end time.

Yeah, you look like you're onto something here. Certainly ordering and
filtering could help. I'll have to think about how to do this without
having to reorder things over and over.

> Hope this makes sense. Also, it's been a while since I was in my
> CS books, so remember what you paid for my advice :-)

Double my money back if it doesn't work? ;-)

Thanks!
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: Scheduling: Comparing every appointment to every other appointment time efficiently

2009-11-11T19:55:06Z

David,

I think the best you'll be able to do is N*(log(N)). In some cases this
will be N*2, but not in the general case.

General Idea:
sort the list by start date/time first
For each record:
use an intelligent search (log N) to find the first record after
your selected record with a start time before your selected record
end time. if no record is found, you are done. If a record is found
you have your first conflict and the subsequent conflicts will be
sequentially after this one until the start time of the next record
is after your selected end time.

Hope this makes sense. Also, it's been a while since I was in my
CS books, so remember what you paid for my advice :-)

>I'm back with more on my scheduling question. Now I'm sorting out how
>to exhaustively compare all appointments in a selection for overlaps.
>If I have ten appointments, I need to check each one against each
>other one in the selection. The problem here is that a naive
>implemention requires events.count^2 comparisons. If you've got 10
>records, you've got 100 comparison pairs and if you've got 100 records
>you got 10,000 comparison pairs. Ouch.
>
>Now, given pretty well any exhaustive comparison situation you can
>normally cut down the comparison pairs by half or slightly better 'for
>free':
>
>* A data point doesn't ever need to be compared to itself. ("Bob's
>Meeting" doesn't need to be compared to "Bob's Meeting".)
>
>* A pair doesn't have to be compared redundantly ("Bob's Meeting" is
>compared with "Mary's Meeting" so "Mary's Meeting" doesn't then need
>to be compared to "Bob's Meeting").
>
>This reduces the number of comparisons by a bit better than half:
>
> (Events - 1) * (Events / 2)
>
>So, if you have 10 events, you need 45 comparison pairs and if you
>have 100 events, you need 4,950 comparison pairs. That's a good deal
>better than the naive exponential exploration - but it's still sloping
>up way too fast. To make the scope of the problem clearer, below are a
>few numbers for the comparison pairs (searches in this case) for a
>staring number of events.
>
>Events Naive Half Off
> 10 100 45
> 100 10,000 4,950
>1,000 1,000,000 499,500
>
>So, "half-off" is better but it's still not good enough past a very
>small starting set. Does anyone have a solution that is much better?
>I'm really hoping for something that is roughly (Events * 2)
>comparisons or not so far off of that. At lest something that doesn't
>have a rocket-tail shaped curve up. Such a sharp curve is frightening
>as the behavior of the program may change dramatically given only
>slightly different initial conditions. For example, using the "half
>off" approach, a starting selection of 20 records takes 190
>comparisons while a starting selection of 60 records takes 1,770
>comparisons - more than 9 times as many for 3 times the starting
>selection. That's a risky sort of solution.

--
Doug Cottrill
PTM Software, LLC

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From forum: 4D Tech

Scheduling: Comparing every appointment to every other appointment time efficiently

2009-11-11T19:29:23Z

I'm back with more on my scheduling question. Now I'm sorting out how
to exhaustively compare all appointments in a selection for overlaps.
If I have ten appointments, I need to check each one against each
other one in the selection. The problem here is that a naive
implemention requires events.count^2 comparisons. If you've got 10
records, you've got 100 comparison pairs and if you've got 100 records
you got 10,000 comparison pairs. Ouch.

Now, given pretty well any exhaustive comparison situation you can
normally cut down the comparison pairs by half or slightly better 'for
free':

* A data point doesn't ever need to be compared to itself. ("Bob's
Meeting" doesn't need to be compared to "Bob's Meeting".)

* A pair doesn't have to be compared redundantly ("Bob's Meeting" is
compared with "Mary's Meeting" so "Mary's Meeting" doesn't then need
to be compared to "Bob's Meeting").

This reduces the number of comparisons by a bit better than half:

(Events - 1) * (Events / 2)

So, if you have 10 events, you need 45 comparison pairs and if you
have 100 events, you need 4,950 comparison pairs. That's a good deal
better than the naive exponential exploration - but it's still sloping
up way too fast. To make the scope of the problem clearer, below are a
few numbers for the comparison pairs (searches in this case) for a
staring number of events.

Events Naive Half Off
10 100 45
100 10,000 4,950
1,000 1,000,000 499,500

So, "half-off" is better but it's still not good enough past a very
small starting set. Does anyone have a solution that is much better?
I'm really hoping for something that is roughly (Events * 2)
comparisons or not so far off of that. At lest something that doesn't
have a rocket-tail shaped curve up. Such a sharp curve is frightening
as the behavior of the program may change dramatically given only
slightly different initial conditions. For example, using the "half
off" approach, a starting selection of 20 records takes 190
comparisons while a starting selection of 60 records takes 1,770
comparisons - more than 9 times as many for 3 times the starting
selection. That's a risky sort of solution.

By the way, for anyone that has such a situation and wants the code
for the "half-off" solution, the loops below are just a shell of this.
All they do is accumulate some text showing the pairs compared. The
clipboard runs out of space if you set the number of items in the test
array very far up. In any case, even the starting case of five
elements used below is enough to see the code at work.

C_LONGINT($events_count)
$events_count:=5

ARRAY LONGINT($eventIDs_al;$events_count)
C_LONGINT($event_index)
For ($event_index;1;$events_count)
$eventIDs_al{$event_index}:=$event_index
End for

C_TEXT($results_text)
$results_text:=""

C_LONGINT($outer_index)
For ($outer_index;1;$events_count)
C_LONGINT($baseID_l)
$baseID_l:=$eventIDs_al{$outer_index}

C_LONGINT($startInnerLoop_l)
$startInnerLoop_l:=$outer_index+1

C_LONGINT($inner_index)
For ($inner_index;$startInnerLoop_l;$events_count)
C_LONGINT($comparisonID_l)
$comparisonID_l:=$eventIDs_al{$inner_index}

$results_text:=$results_text+String($baseID_l)
$results_text:=$results_text+" : "
$results_text:=$results_text+String($comparisonID_l)
$results_text:=$results_text+Char(Carriage return )
End for

End for

SET TEXT TO CLIPBOARD($results_text)

Below is the output, showing that every element is compared to every
other element (but not itself) once and only once:

1 : 2
1 : 3
1 : 4
1 : 5
2 : 3
2 : 4
2 : 5
3 : 4
3 : 5
4 : 5
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: Scheduling algorithms (Was: Testing if two lines or vectors intersect/overlap)

2009-11-11T19:11:07Z

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Walt Nelson <walt@...> wrote:
> David,
>
> I once did a 4D Web based scheduling app, and I came to the same conclusion you did: a "Master" record for the event, with an "Occurrence" record for each instance. The Master record has all the details, and the Occurrence record has the master I'd, occurrence I'd, date, and time.
>
> So when the name (for example) of the event was changed, I didn't have to update a ton of Occurrence records, since that info was being displayed from the master event record.

Glad to hear you've been down this road and it works well enough. It
seems like the right way to go.

Thanks,

-- David
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: Scheduling algorithms (Was: Testing if two lines or vectors intersect/overlap)

2009-11-11T18:34:30Z

David,

I once did a 4D Web based scheduling app, and I came to the same conclusion you did: a "Master" record for the event, with an "Occurrence" record for each instance. The Master record has all the details, and the Occurrence record has the master I'd, occurrence I'd, date, and time.

So when the name (for example) of the event was changed, I didn't have to update a ton of Occurrence records, since that info was being displayed from the master event record.

Walt Nelson - Guam

David Adams said:
>There's a master record that defines the event (there are
a ton of details for each event that have not much to do with the
schedule itself.) I'm planning, from there, to build out every single
event.
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: New behavior cause data corruption in v11

2009-11-11T18:21:57Z

Kevin,

With all due respect: I would not classify this as a "4D bug" but as a "Required Technique Adjustment."

Triggers and Transactions are two of the most specialized areas in 4D: many things work differently in them than in normal operations. Therefore, we have to use them sparingly, and with special care. Using 4D's Sequence Number or Record Number to find records inside a transaction is never a good idea, IMHO. You need to set up your own numbering scheme, and use that number to query for a specific record while inside a Transaction - especially when also inside a Trigger.

If I have misunderstood what you are doing, I stand corrected.

Walt Nelson - Guam

Kevin wrote
>Yes, it is inside transaction and trigger.

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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: 4Dv11.5 MC3 -> Integer 64 bits field -> string() -> output blank -> only if compiled

2009-11-11T18:20:01Z

...and notified engineering of the problem.

miyako

ACI0063948: The String function does not accept pointer to Integer 64bits compiled**********************************************************************
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: 4Dv11.5 MC3 -> Integer 64 bits field -> string() -> output blank -> only if compiled

2009-11-11T17:58:42Z

Hi,

Hi,

I have posted on the forums a quick workaround;

http://forums.4d.fr/4DBB_Main/x_User/298210/files/3099896.zip

miyako

ALERT(String($p->))`NG compiled
ALERT(StringEx ($p))`OK

where StringEx reads,

$formula_t:=Command name(10) `String/Chaine
$formula_t:=$formula_t+"("+eval ($1)+")"

$code_t:=""
PROCESS HTML TAGS($code_t;$code_t)

$0:=$code_t

and eval reads;

C_TEXT($vn)
C_LONGINT($tn;$fn)
RESOLVE POINTER($1;$vn;$tn;$fn)

Case of
: ($fn#0) `is a field
$0:="["+Table name($tn)+"]"+Field name($tn;$fn)
: ($vn="")
If ($tn=0) `is NIL
Else `is a table
$0:="["+Table name($tn)+"]"
End if
Else
If ($tn=-1) `is a variable or array
$0:=$vn
Else `is an array element
$0:=$vn+"{"+String($tn)+"}"
End if
End case

On 2009/11/12, at 10:35, miyako wrote:

> as well as look for a workaround (if any...I can imagine EXECUTE FORMULA but maybe something else)

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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: 4Dv11.5 MC3 -> Integer 64 bits field -> string() -> output blank -> only if compiled

2009-11-11T17:35:52Z

Hi,

it seems like the -> expression itself is quite compatible with integer 64,
as the following line did work compiled;

C_TEXT($vn)
C_LONGINT($tn;$fn)
RESOLVE POINTER($p;$vn;$tn;$fn)
ALERT(String(Type(Field($tn;$fn)->)))

however,
there seems to be an omission in the compiler due to the
multi-purpose nature of String (not that it is an excuse)...

I will file a bug report as soon as I nail down the exact problem,
as well as look for a workaround (if any...I can imagine EXECUTE FORMULA but maybe something else)

miyako

On 2009/11/12, at 10:16, Balinder Walia wrote:

> You know what that means? I can't write a generic method to pull data from
> any table in JSON format as easily I envisaged.
>
> like JSON_Encode_Selection(->[aTable])
>
> what else do it?
>
> Balinder
>
> 2009/11/12 miyako <miyako@...>
>>
>> ALERT(String($p->))
>> ALERT(String([Table_1]int64))
>>
>> however,
>> the second line does function so its not as if String can't handle Integer
>> 64; it's resolving the $p-> that fails.

From forum: 4D Tech

Re: 4Dv11.5 MC3 -> Integer 64 bits field -> string() -> output blank -> only if compiled

2009-11-11T17:16:30Z

You know what that means? I can't write a generic method to pull data from
any table in JSON format as easily I envisaged.

like JSON_Encode_Selection(->[aTable])

what else do it?

Balinder

2009/11/12 miyako <miyako@...>

> HI,
>
> it seems the String function (or maybe functions in general, have to test
> more)
> can't resolve pointers to Integer 64.
>
> I wrote a method,
>
> $p:=new int64
> $p->:=1
>
> ALERT(String($p->))
> ALERT(String([Table_1]int64))
>
> where the subroutine int64 reads,
>
> C_POINTER($0)
>
> CREATE RECORD([Table_1])
> $0:=->[Table_1]int64
>
> both alerts show "1" interpreted,
> but the first is blank when compiled.
>
> however,
> the second line does function so its not as if String can't handle Integer
> 64;
> it's resolving the $p-> that fails.
>
> miyako
>
> On 2009/11/12, at 3:00, Balinder Walia wrote:
>
> > Another thing is baffling me a little, I have a function which returns
> time
> > stamp and it is returning $0 C_LONGINT but field is of type int 64.
> > Does it mean I can actually process int 64 bits data using variable and
> > arrays?
> > I suppose I use type casting to convert into alpha.
> >
> > Am I on the right track for a scalable large system?
> >
> > Bal
> >
> > 2009/11/10 Balinder Walia <balinder.walia@...>
> >
> >> ...running Mac Snow Leopard
> >>
> >> I have a loop which outputs table rows into JSON format. Interpreted
> mode
> >> all works fine, example
> >>
> >>
> [{"t9_f1_id":"AAA000000000000000000000000000015517","t9_f2_timestamp_created":1257892195,"t9_f3_timestamp_modified"
> >> :1257892196,,"t9_f30_Prefix":"AAA"},...
> >>
> >> When I switch to compiled mode the integer 64 bit fields output blank
> >> values, example
> >>
> >>
> [{"t9_f1_id":"AAA000000000000000000000000000015517","t9_f2_timestamp_created":,"t9_f3_timestamp_modified"
> >> :,,"t9_f30_Prefix":"AAA"},...
> >>
> >> Only integer 64 bits are effected...code which outputs data ( into array
> >> first and then into JSON blob ) looks like:
> >>
> >> APPEND TO ARRAY($2->;String($pFieldPtr->)) where pFieldPtr points to
> field
> >> of type integer 64 bit
> >>
> >> I added result of to String($pFieldPtr->) pasteboard and it seems to be
> >> failing to output data just after String($pFieldPtr->) so nothing wrong
> with
> >> Arrays or JSON encoder etc.
> >>
> >> Have a just found a bug? Or did I miss something crucial from 4Dv11 The
> >> missing manual/Summit
> >>
> >> Balinder
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: 4Dv11.5 MC3 -> Integer 64 bits field -> string() -> output blank -> only if compiled

2009-11-11T17:04:57Z

HI,

it seems the String function (or maybe functions in general, have to test more)
can't resolve pointers to Integer 64.

I wrote a method,

$p:=new int64
$p->:=1

ALERT(String($p->))
ALERT(String([Table_1]int64))

where the subroutine int64 reads,

C_POINTER($0)

CREATE RECORD([Table_1])
$0:=->[Table_1]int64

both alerts show "1" interpreted,
but the first is blank when compiled.

however,
the second line does function so its not as if String can't handle Integer 64;
it's resolving the $p-> that fails.

miyako

On 2009/11/12, at 3:00, Balinder Walia wrote:

> Another thing is baffling me a little, I have a function which returns time
> stamp and it is returning $0 C_LONGINT but field is of type int 64.
> Does it mean I can actually process int 64 bits data using variable and
> arrays?
> I suppose I use type casting to convert into alpha.
>
> Am I on the right track for a scalable large system?
>
> Bal
>
> 2009/11/10 Balinder Walia <balinder.walia@...>
>
>> ...running Mac Snow Leopard
>>
>> I have a loop which outputs table rows into JSON format. Interpreted mode
>> all works fine, example
>>
>> [{"t9_f1_id":"AAA000000000000000000000000000015517","t9_f2_timestamp_created":1257892195,"t9_f3_timestamp_modified"
>> :1257892196,,"t9_f30_Prefix":"AAA"},...
>>
>> When I switch to compiled mode the integer 64 bit fields output blank
>> values, example
>>
>> [{"t9_f1_id":"AAA000000000000000000000000000015517","t9_f2_timestamp_created":,"t9_f3_timestamp_modified"
>> :,,"t9_f30_Prefix":"AAA"},...
>>
>> Only integer 64 bits are effected...code which outputs data ( into array
>> first and then into JSON blob ) looks like:
>>
>> APPEND TO ARRAY($2->;String($pFieldPtr->)) where pFieldPtr points to field
>> of type integer 64 bit
>>
>> I added result of to String($pFieldPtr->) pasteboard and it seems to be
>> failing to output data just after String($pFieldPtr->) so nothing wrong with
>> Arrays or JSON encoder etc.
>>
>> Have a just found a bug? Or did I miss something crucial from 4Dv11 The
>> missing manual/Summit
>>
>> Balinder

From forum: 4D Tech

Re: New behavior cause data corruption in v11

2009-11-11T16:39:08Z

On Nov 11, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Jack des Bouillons wrote:

> I've got fields in every table for Created By, Modified By, Created at
> (timestamp) and Modified. All are filled in in a trigger.
>
> Also I've got three fields for in one table for ticket sales by three
> different types...and a field for TOTAL SALES, which is the sum of the
> three...calculated in a trigger...
>
> How is this denormalizing my database?

Well... it depends on who you talk to and what normalization form you
are talking about. I'm not going to try and distill database
normalization by E.F. Codd here. But I will provide links to Wiki so
everyone can go learn about it. Wiki defines 8 levels of
normalization. I was only taught about 1NF, 2NF and 3NF in college
many years ago. I'm not sure we really need 8 levels. Some are
probably due to some computer science PhD in need of a thesis topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_normal_form
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_normal_form
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_normal_form
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyce-Codd_normal_form
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_normal_form
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_normal_form
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain/key_normal_form
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_normal_form

Databases that I have designed adhere to at least 3NF -- unless
performance considerations dictate otherwise. I'll take your example
and analyze it. No charge :-)

One of the normalization rules states that a field in a table should
not be dependent on the value of another field in the same table.
This is so that you can safely update any single non-key field in a
table and not impact the data in the other fields. So in your example
the TOTAL SALES field is dependent on 3 other fields in the record.
This breaks a rule, so your data is "denormalized".

Interesting to note that if a database is normalized, it will not
suffer from what are called update anomalies, delete anomalies and
insertion anomalies. (Read the Wiki for definitions) Your case is an
example of an update anomaly. Many times triggers are used to prevent
these anomalies from occurring. So you could say that the more
normalized your database is, the less likely it will be to need
triggers.

Now let's talk about the real world and my statement -- "unless
performance considerations dictate otherwise". I'll take your case as
an example. Your application design might require users to make quick
reports daily of many different types. Users are not experts and you
need an easy way to let them include TOTAL SALES in quick reports.
Sure, you could teach users how to add a formula column and sum those
three fields in a quick report calculated column. But you also know
this will be a support hassle you don't want to deal with. This will
impact your performance!

So you denormalize the data in the table and add the TOTAL SALES
field. It's a convenience to the user, and a performance enhancer for
your own support time. You add some code to the trigger to prevent
update anomalies, and you are done. This is a perfect reason to
denormalize your data. There is nothing wrong with denormalized data
in a database. I do it all the time -- when the need for it arises.

Tim

********************************************
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785-749-3444
timnevels@...
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: My own QR Editor problem solved

2009-11-11T16:31:08Z

Thanks to Jack Des Bouillons for an elegant solution to my question.

And in a wrapper of course. :-)

Gene

On 11/10/09 13:51 PM, "Gene McGlasson" <gene@...> wrote:

> I've been pleased with the functionality I can invoke when rolling my own QR
> editor. I've run into one issue for which I haven't found a solution. I want
> to pragmatically insert a column with a formula like:
>
> [people]City+", "+[people]State+" "+[People]Zip
>
> Does anyone know how to do this?
>
> With thanks,
> --
>
> *************************
> * Gene McGlasson *
> * By The Book, Inc *
> * gene@... *
> * 406.552.0494 *
> *************************
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
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*************************
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* By The Book, Inc *
* gene@... *
* 406.552.0494 *
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: Admin UI for Webserver when run on Client?

2009-11-11T15:43:24Z

Thank you; I forgot about that.

But (I just tried),

1) Only the administrator or designer user has access to it, which I
could live with

2) It appears that the Webserver tab of the 4D Server Admin window
displays only the webserver if running from the 4D server machine. The
client-based web server was running, but the same client-based 4D
server ui showed that it wasn't.

Bill

On Nov 11, 2009, at 6:22 PM, Josh Fletcher (4D, Inc) wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
> The 4D Server Admin window is exactly the same when opened on 4D
> Remote.
> Are you experiencing something different? Or maybe you're asking
> how to
> open it? There is a standard action for it. IIRC you need to be
> logged in
> as Administrator or Designer too.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Josh Fletcher
>
> --
> Josh Fletcher
> 4D Technical Services Team Member
> http://www.4d.com
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill Weale [mailto:Bill.Weale@...]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:35 AM
>> To: 4D iNUG Technical
>> Subject: Admin UI for Webserver when run on Client?
>>
>> 4D v11
>>
>> The 4D Webserver Admin UI--which is basically informative--has its
>> own
>> tab in the UI for 4D Server. Is such beast available for the 4D
>> Webserver when it's running on 4D Remote (client)?
>>

From forum: 4D Tech

RE: Admin UI for Webserver when run on Client?

2009-11-11T15:22:19Z

Hi Bill,

The 4D Server Admin window is exactly the same when opened on 4D Remote.
Are you experiencing something different? Or maybe you're asking how to
open it? There is a standard action for it. IIRC you need to be logged in
as Administrator or Designer too.

Kind regards,

Josh Fletcher

--
Josh Fletcher
4D Technical Services Team Member
http://www.4d.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Weale [mailto:Bill.Weale@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:35 AM
> To: 4D iNUG Technical
> Subject: Admin UI for Webserver when run on Client?
>
> 4D v11
>
> The 4D Webserver Admin UI--which is basically informative--has its own
> tab in the UI for 4D Server. Is such beast available for the 4D
> Webserver when it's running on 4D Remote (client)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill

From forum: 4D Tech

RE: Does v11 support multiple CPUs for converted application?

2009-11-11T15:15:41Z

Hi Michael,

I think you've misunderstood me and I apologize for not being clear.

A deep discussion on the data engine in 4D is beyond the scope of what I can
do on this list.

If there are specific performance concerns or questions that require perhaps
some intensive investigation I highly recommend contacting Technical
Support.

I will try to answer what questions I can as well. I think Jeff and David
already did a great job on this topic and this is a community supported list
after all.

I hope that makes sense.

Kind regards,

Josh Fletcher

--
Josh Fletcher
4D Technical Services Team Member
http://www.4d.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Ashton [mailto:mfogghsd@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:03 AM
> To: 4D iNug Technical
> Subject: Re: Does v11 support multiple CPUs for converted application?
>
> He's not asking how to do something. He's trying to get
> verification/clarification of marketspeak so that he can solve a problem
> and
> make intelligent decisions about the future of his application. He has to
> take a class to get that?
>
> Michael Ashton

From forum: 4D Tech

RE: v11 performance: Unicode vs. ASCII Compatibility Mode

2009-11-11T15:11:10Z

The performance hit isn't that bad anymore. In fact, we didn't really
measure much hit at all. Keep in mind that you're still limited to 32K
text in non-Unicode mode.

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From forum: 4D Tech

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2009-11-11T15:01:31Z

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From forum: 4D Announcements

v11 performance: Unicode vs. ASCII Compatibility Mode

2009-11-11T14:50:40Z

When v11 is in ASCII Compatibility Mode (i.e., Unicode Mode is off), I
understand that there will be a performance hit with operations on
strings. Are there any other performance issues that anyone knows
about? Can I get at least as good performance as with 2004 when
Unicode Mode is off? Any issues with WAN or the ability to run on
multiple processors?

------------------------------------------------
Richard Wright
DataDomain
rwright@...
------------------------------------------------

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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: New behavior cause data corruption in v11

2009-11-11T14:38:28Z

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Alan Chan <alan@...> wrote:
> I can't speak for others. For our case, we have nothing to do with
> denormalization. It's pure business rule imposing. One simple example I
> mentioned here quite often is:

Yeah, rules enforcement is my main reason for using triggers as well -
they're the right tool for the job.

It's a shame that 4D seems to hate triggers now :( There's a bit of
history here:

* Back in the olden days, we had File Methods. For anyone familiar
with an event cascade/bubble scheme, File Methods seemed like a pretty
natural place to consolidate code. After getting your fingers singed
you discovered it wasn't a good idea after all. File Methods were
pretty much treated as a feature you shouldn't use.

* Triggers - when they were implemented - were a huge step forward. We
were clearly being given access to something in a bit of a raw state.
You had to understand a _lot_ of details about 4D's 'state of mind' in
various situations (single user/client/server & compiled/interpreted)
to predict what was going to happen and program things correctly. Once
you understood that and respected the limits, you could easily
accomplish many tasks safely and 100% consistently and accurately.

* V11 seems to have changed triggers considerably, although I haven't
studied them in detail. A few problems I'm aware of at a glance:
-- You no longer seem to get a real lock - so you need to do more
coding to prevent collisions in unique values and such. (? I think
this is true.)
-- Triggers no longer run all of the time - there's an increasing list
of commands that don't fire triggers.

I've also noticed a lot of talk out of 4D about triggers and
performance problems. I don't get it. Well, I do get it - but I expect
the problems are only going to come up for people with very large
installations. In other words, a tiny minority of the 4D databases in
use around the world. I wasn't having performance problems related to
triggers in 2004 so why would I in V11?

I really want rule enforcement *at the table level*. I don't want to
know or care if the input mechanism is an import, GUI in 4D, SQL
interaction, SOAP interaction, or Web interaction. This may matter
more to me than others, but it's really common to have at least a
couple of ways of modifying data in a table.
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: On outside call for List Boxes

2009-11-11T14:06:55Z

I havent visited my drag n drop code for some time, but as I recall I
HAD to reach back to the originating object (arrays in this case) to
get the needed info to correctly manage the drop - and (again as I
recall) no reference to outside calls.

BUT then again I wasnt updating anything from the source process

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:26:38 -0500, Bill Weale wrote:
> I'm doing that as a matter of course.
>
> But the interface allows the user to move or to copy--the copy
> happening if the alt/option key is pressed while dragging. If it's
> just a move, I need the destination object to call back to the source
> so its record can be deleted. I'd rather not delete until the
> destination drop has successfully occurred.
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From forum: 4D Tech

Re: Testing if two lines or vectors intersect/overlap

2009-11-11T14:04:29Z

I'd suggest your considering:

[Event]<--[Room Event]-->[Room]

and

[Event]<--[Person-Event]--->[Person]

and,

etc.

This construct...

...makes it much easier in the future to add other classes of
"Things"--the data/table equivalent to Rooms and Persons that may take
part in each event

...allows you to use more than one of a class of "things", like rooms,
for any given event

...makes, imo, for easier report development, especially conflict-
catching

I know you said that (right now) you don't need any other resource
than just the room, but...

8-)

Bill

On Nov 10, 2009, at 8:17 PM, David Adams wrote:

> I'm imagining linking to other people like so:
>
>
> [Event] ---> [Room]
>
> An [Event] occurs in a specific room.
>
> [Event] <--> [Person]
>
> An event may have many people, a person may participate in many
> events.

From forum: 4D Tech