612cc Insurance

[malfisher500]

Spurred into thought by the thread on the Suzuki, and of course having
the recent cash bonus of flogging my Dyna, I got to thinking about the
612 kit again!

So I was wondering how much the 612 kit adds to insurance, I called my
own broker namely Devitts, and they came back and said that Groupama
the current insurers declined to insure it.

So any tips of who to approach to insure the bike should I decide to
get a 612 kit instead of a shovelhead is much appreciated!

Ive posted this on Hitchcocks as well.

Malc.

[jack thuline]

Don't tell your insurance company it's a 612. i've never worried about a post-claim teardown from my insurer on my xs650/750.maybe i'm taking a chance but i can't imagine how they would know it had been built up.

Malcolm Fisher-4 wrote:

Spurred into thought by the thread on the Suzuki, and of course having
the recent cash bonus of flogging my Dyna, I got to thinking about the
612 kit again!

So I was wondering how much the 612 kit adds to insurance, I called my
own broker namely Devitts, and they came back and said that Groupama
the current insurers declined to insure it.

So any tips of who to approach to insure the bike should I decide to
get a 612 kit instead of a shovelhead is much appreciated!

Ive posted this on Hitchcocks as well.

Malc.

[malfisher500]

No way Jack, they need to know. I would have not even bothered with
insurance 30 years ago, but not now. I have good news however, after
some phone calls I have the price down to £130 for 3rd party fire &
theft, Im valuing the bike at 4 grand.

This is the reason I tell, there is no way youd get a valuation of
that on a 91 stock bike, so Ive gone for those that deal with modified
and specials, just in case it gets stolen. I wouldnt claim for
anything that was my fault anyway!

Cheers
Malc.



--- In royalenfield@..., jack thuline <jthuline@...> wrote:
>
>
> Don't tell your insurance company it's a 612. i've never worried about a
> post-claim teardown from my insurer on my xs650/750.maybe i'm taking a
> chance but i can't imagine how they would know it had been built up.
>

[Pete Snidal]

>Don't tell your insurance company it's a 612. i've never worried about a
>post-claim teardown from my insurer on my xs650/750.maybe i'm taking a
>chance but i can't imagine how they would know it had been built up.

First thing I thought of!  They ask for model, don't they?  It's a 500 Bullet.
If they ask for displacement mods, or hop-ups, that's another thing, but
don't let your pride of ownership sink you - it's a 500 Bullet in terms of
model.  Does everyone who puts in an oversize piston declare the extra
displacement?

[cjayheff]

--- In royalenfield@..., Pete Snidal <snidey@...> wrote:
> First thing I thought of!  They ask for model, don't they?  It's a
500 Bullet.
> If they ask for displacement mods, or hop-ups, that's another thing,
but
> don't let your pride of ownership sink you - it's a 500 Bullet in
terms of
> model.  Does everyone who puts in an oversize piston declare the extra
> displacement?
>

Pete,

I think there are two different lines of thought here. You and others
are thinking along the lines of the insurance company jacking up the
rates. Malc and guys like me (a 612 owner) are thinking along the lines
of our bikes are worth a hell of a lot more than a show room bullet.
Starting with a new bullet off the show room floor and adding the 612
kit and all the other bits to make the job right plus machine shop
labor or special tooling if you DIY, you are looking at $10,000+. So we
want our greater investment covered and would expect to have to pay an
increased premium for it.

When I looked into this with my insurance company they were less than
enthusiastic. So I went on the web looking for MC insurance for custom
bikes. It looks like the blokes in England can find insurance companies
that will help but here in the US things seem to be a bit different.

Being the land of chrome-and-honey or, should I say, driveway jewelry,
our insurance industry is geared to the superficial. That is, they will
issue custom insurance for custom bikes with quadruple thick chrome,
glass wheels, skull shaped gas tanks, zeroniumphonium head lights and
lizard skin saddles. Basically the Jesse James type stuff you see at
Daytona during speed (it must refer to amphetamines) week. But, they
will not give any credence to the value of the internal machinery
whatsoever.

That said I have found, after several accidents within the bevy of
bikes I am responsible for, that there is much less damage and cost
associated with wrecking a bike as opposed to a car and I have yet to
not be able to fix them up as good as new for less than the $500
deductible I was carrying. So I dropped the collision on all the bikes.
The comprehensive also. If the thing is going to burn up, it will
probably be in my garage so the house insurance will cover it and since
all my bikes are kick start only and this is America, the chances of
anyone knowing how to start one up to steal it are pretty slight. Plus,
since all my bikes weigh less than 1/2 ton, they are not considered
desirable here in the land of plenty -(of debt).

CJay

[malfisher500]

Got it in one Cjay! Thats exactly what Im thinking of, I can pay £70
to insure my 500 (value £600) or £130 to insure my declared 612 (value
£4000) it's a no brainer.

To a lesser extent (shame on me) Im also thinking that if I t-bone a
pedestrian or some such other possible 3rd party disaster, if a
serious insurance company decided to investigate, I could be landed
with a £1 million debt!

I will also fill in the log book and get the bike registered as a 612
Bullet Superstar, it's a simple process I have investigated. I will
have to pay a little more a year in road tax, but the bike will be all
above board which again increases it's desireability. I dont know of
any other 1991 612cc Superstar Bullets.

Oh yes, Im finally having one by the way! The shovel argument clinched
it! :):):)

I had a very detailed and helpfull reply from Hitchcocks answering all
my queries and affirming my iron barrell bored to 87mm will be a-ok
for the job, as will my goldie silencer. I dont like the look of the
megaphone.

This is getting scary now!

Malc.


--- In royalenfield@..., "cjayheff" <cjayheff@...> wrote:

> Pete,
>
> I think there are two different lines of thought here. You and others
> are thinking along the lines of the insurance company jacking up the
> rates. Malc and guys like me (a 612 owner) are thinking along the lines
> of our bikes are worth a hell of a lot more than a show room bullet.
> Starting with a new bullet off the show room floor and adding the 612
> kit and all the other bits to make the job right plus machine shop
> labor or special tooling if you DIY, you are looking at $10,000+. So we
> want our greater investment covered and would expect to have to pay an
> increased premium for it.

> CJay
>

[cjayheff]

--- In royalenfield@..., "Malcolm Fisher" <malfisher@...>
wrote:
>
> Oh yes, Im finally having one by the way! The shovel argument clinched
> it! :):):)
>

Malc,

Good for you. Once sorted out, these are a most unique machine that can
only only be appreciated by driving one. I'd love to start a 612
registry. I wonder how many of them there are out there?

Keep us up-to-date on the progress.

CJay

[malfisher500]

--- In royalenfield@..., "cjayheff" <cjayheff@...> wrote:
> Good for you. Once sorted out, these are a most unique machine that can
> only only be appreciated by driving one. I'd love to start a 612
> registry. I wonder how many of them there are out there?
>
> Keep us up-to-date on the progress.
>
> CJay
>

I certainly will Cjay, Im very excited about this, it beat out the
dream of a shovelhead. The weight was probably the real clincher,
those things are so heavy, and the Bullet so nimble and light!

Wouldnt it be great to have a register? Maybe you aught to start one?
By the way, I'd appreciate any tips from yourself, seeing as youre
allready there, by email would be great if you would care too?

Malc.

[cjayheff]

--- In royalenfield@..., "Malcolm Fisher" <malfisher@...> >
> I certainly will Cjay, Im very excited about this, it beat out the
> dream of a shovelhead.

Good call. I've had pre-Evo HDs (FLH & XLCH) circa 1979. While I still
think the FLH is a unique machine worth having it only seems to look
right when it has POLICE written on the sides. As to every other HD,
well, I look at them kinda the same way I look at CAILIS.

The 612 gives you what you are looking for in the HD (lots of torque,
even at low rpms (sorry ACE, I know you say they don't but 'till you
drive one ...) higher RPMs, better vibration (thump) and much better
handling (with some minor changes like tires and footpegs).

> The weight was probably the real clincher,
> those things are so heavy, and the Bullet so nimble and light!

Ditto.

>
> Wouldnt it be great to have a register? Maybe you aught to start one?

I think I will.

> By the way, I'd appreciate any tips from yourself, seeing as youre
> allready there, by email would be great if you would care too?

Will do, let me gather my thoughts.

BTW, some guy pulled me over the last week that had a bullet. I let him
drive the 612. He seemed really impressed with the power. I've lived
with this thing for the last two years so I really would appreciate
other opionions from mine. I'd love to get together with someone like
Dameon who has "two" Goldstars and let him drive it so I could get a
non-biased opionion of it. I think I'm being honest in my assesment of
it but am always aware of our nature.

CJay

[ace.cafe]

CJay,
Please don't misunderstand my comments about the lower end torque.
My comments were only directed as a relative comparison of torque
produced at different spots on the rpm range, on the same 612
platform, with race cams vs narrower-overlap cams.
I'm aware that the 612 produces higher torque anywhere on the
powerband than the 500 does, and that it's a strong engine.
I don't dispute that it has good power across the band.

I believe that the 612 makes better use of the port size, and the wide
cam overlap works better with the 612 than the 500 because of that. So
the 612 is not as adversely affected as the 500 with the same cams.

I may have come across sounding like I thought that the 612 would be
"weak" in the bottom revs, but what I really meant was that it would
be more biased toward the top end, with those cams. I didn't really
mean it would be "weak" per se.
But the 500 is weak in the bottom end with those cams. Weaker in the
bottom than a stock 500. The 612 makes up for it with the displacement
and the compression, and the better use of the ports.
However, I'm sure you can see what I'm saying about the power bias
when you look at the 612 dyno curves. They are dramatically different
power levels at 3000rpm than at 5500rpm. And that is what I'm
referring to. Basically you see primarily the displacement and
compression benefits improved below 3000rpms, and then the cams give
you the rest above 3000rpm, which is where they work.
Obviously the 612 gives more at any rpm than the 500, so it's not weak.

Hope that clarifies.
Ace

--- In royalenfield@..., "cjayheff" <cjayheff@...> wrote:
 

> The 612 gives you what you are looking for in the HD (lots of torque,
> even at low rpms (sorry ACE, I know you say they don't but 'till you
> drive one ...) higher RPMs, better vibration (thump) and much better
> handling (with some minor changes like tires and footpegs).
>
> > The weight was probably the real clincher,
> > those things are so heavy, and the Bullet so nimble and light!
>
> Ditto.
>
> >
> > Wouldnt it be great to have a register? Maybe you aught to start one?
>
> I think I will.
>
> > By the way, I'd appreciate any tips from yourself, seeing as youre
> > allready there, by email would be great if you would care too?
>
> Will do, let me gather my thoughts.
>
> BTW, some guy pulled me over the last week that had a bullet. I let him
> drive the 612. He seemed really impressed with the power. I've lived
> with this thing for the last two years so I really would appreciate
> other opionions from mine. I'd love to get together with someone like
> Dameon who has "two" Goldstars and let him drive it so I could get a
> non-biased opionion of it. I think I'm being honest in my assesment of
> it but am always aware of our nature.
>
> CJay
>

[ric450classic]

Malc,
I'm genuinely surprised by the lack of feedback as a result of your
posting on the Hitchcock's forum.
With the amount of queries and comments from different UK 612 owners
and along with Hitchcock's supplying the kit; I would have thought a
few more might have jumped in with details of insurance companies that
provide cover for their modified 500's.

[cjayheff]

--- In royalenfield@..., "Malcolm Fisher" <malfisher@...>
wrote:
>
> Wouldnt it be great to have a register? Maybe you aught to start
one?>
> Malc.
>

Malc,

With a register in mind I wanted to do some research so I sent Allen
an email and asked him how many 612s he thought were out there. He
said 120 long cranks have been sold of which he estimated that 95%
where 612s as opposed to 570s.

He said that this week alone 3 complete kits went out (so you must
have two companions).

He guessed that only about 6 or 7 have come to the US. So they are a
lot rarer over here which does not suprise me given the exchange
rate. I am suprised at how many must be over there.

Thought you would be interested.

CJay

[deejay_nh]

--- In royalenfield@..., "cjayheff" <cjayheff@...> wrote:

>
> He guessed that only about 6 or 7 have come to the US. So they are a
> lot rarer over here which does not suprise me given the exchange
> rate. I am suprised at how many must be over there.
>
> Thought you would be interested.
>
> CJay
>


I hope to be added to this list someday. Right now my confidence level
is not where I want it to be in order to tackle this upgrade myself. I
asked Hitchcocks if the kit came with complete instructions and it
apparently doesn't. They did offer to help me along the way if I
ordered the kit... although, with the amount of questions I have it
may be more cost effective for them to print up a color hardcover
edition of the full step-by-step 612 instructions and include it in
their next round of catalog mailings to all customers.

[malfisher500]

--- In royalenfield@..., "cjayheff" <cjayheff@...> wrote:

> With a register in mind I wanted to do some research so I sent Allen
> an email and asked him how many 612s he thought were out there. He
> said 120 long cranks have been sold of which he estimated that 95%
> where 612s as opposed to 570s.
>
> He said that this week alone 3 complete kits went out (so you must
> have two companions).
>
> He guessed that only about 6 or 7 have come to the US. So they are a
> lot rarer over here which does not suprise me given the exchange
> rate. I am suprised at how many must be over there.
>
> Thought you would be interested.
>
> CJay
>

I am very interested CJay, thats a good number, not exactly a
production bike though eh!

Im pretty excited to say the least because Im going over to Hitchcocks
tommorow to pick up my kit! :):):)

I had an interesting talk on the phone with John of Tollgate Classics
today, I was considering his 625 which is somewhat cheaper but uses
the Indian flywheels, on reflection have settled for the 612 from Allan.

God I cant wait!

Malc.

[malfisher500]

--- In royalenfield@..., "Ric" <longstrokeclassic@...> wrote:
>
> Malc,
> I'm genuinely surprised by the lack of feedback as a result of your
> posting on the Hitchcock's forum.
> With the amount of queries and comments from different UK 612 owners
> and along with Hitchcock's supplying the kit; I would have thought a
> few more might have jumped in with details of insurance companies that
> provide cover for their modified 500's.
>

Im very baffled at this also Ric, I mean surely they do get them
insured as 612's? I wouldnt dream of insuring my bike as a 500. I
mean, the value alone would make me have sleepless nights! I can only
afford this kit becuase I sold my Harley, which to get, I had to get
two heart attacks and be nearly dead which got me awarded 3 years
mobility!

I bought a HD instead of a car! The car I actually bought was a K reg
Escort that cost £100 and had toadstools growing in it LOL, but it got
me the Harley I dreamed of all my life!

If my 612 were stolen, I could never replace it, so Im getting it
insured for a minimum of £4000, in fact im considering going for broke
and fitting the racing clutch and the close ratio gear set and a 20
tooth sprocket!

Malc.

[cjayheff]

--- In royalenfield@..., "Malcolm Fisher" <malfisher@...>
wrote:

> If my 612 were stolen, I could never replace it, so Im getting it
> insured for a minimum of £4000, in fact im considering going for broke
> and fitting the racing clutch and the close ratio gear set and a 20
> tooth sprocket!
>
> Malc.
>

Malc,

I can't comment on the sprocket as I believe you have a 4 speed and I a
5 speed. I would think however that the last thing you would need are
close ratios in your gearbox. Man, this thing blows through the first
three gears so fast on my 5 speed that I loose so much time shifting.
Not until I hit 4th can it really dig in and pull for awhile without
interruption. Sometime I don't get it into first when I come to a stop
and I end up starting out in second gear. No problem. It is hardly
noticeable. If I were to drag race this thing I think I would try
launching it in second at about 2,500 - 3,000 rpm (I have a 19T
sprocket).

I can tell you that you will need the clutch. You can try to beef up
the stock clutch all you want and all you will end up with is a left
forearm that looks like Popeye's.

The racing clutch from Hitchcock's is a Bob Newby. Since you live over
there you may try contacting him directly and save a pound or two.

Because of the exchange rate between the dollar and the pound when I
bought mine it really hurt. But it is what it is and that is what it
will take. Not only does it hold the beast but your forearm will return
to normal size.

CJay

[Matt-53]

If there's a head count for the 612cc then i should also raise my hand and be part of the
gang, lol. I had mine built up with the stroker after my con-rod let go in 03.

Ratty

[malfisher500]

Thanks for the tip CJay, I have emailed Bob Newby to see what is what,
I dont even have the 5 plate clutch, my bike is a 91 and has the 4
plate, which even slips with a standard motor!

With the close ratio set, I believe that it actually gives you more to
go at in the first 3 gears, and in that way narrows the gap between
3rd and 4th, Im not sure though, and will ask on Hitchcocks.

Malc.

[cjayheff]

--- In royalenfield@..., "Matt" <ratabilly@...> wrote:
>
> If there's a head count for the 612cc then i should also raise my
hand and be part of the
> gang, lol. I had mine built up with the stroker after my con-rod
let go in 03.
>
> Ratty
>

Ratty,

Great, glad to hear of another owner on this list. Which side of the
pond are you on? I'd like to start some kind of a web page where we
all can share our bikes and experiences. If I ever get one going I'll
let you know.

Are you satisfied with the performance?

Have you had any reliablity issues?

Do you have any pictures of it posted here?

CJay

[cjayheff]

--- In royalenfield@..., "Malcolm Fisher" <malfisher@...>
wrote:

>
> Thanks for the tip CJay, I have emailed Bob Newby to see what is what,
> I dont even have the 5 plate clutch, my bike is a 91 and has the 4
> plate, which even slips with a standard motor!
>
> With the close ratio set, I believe that it actually gives you more to
> go at in the first 3 gears, and in that way narrows the gap between
> 3rd and 4th, Im not sure though, and will ask on Hitchcocks.
>
> Malc.
>

Malc,

Yeah, I've found Hitchcocks to be the best source for technical
questions about the 612. I have no idea how the 4 speeds are. I've
never actually seen one let alone driven one but I'm sure the 612 will
have the power to pull whatever gear box you have. I think Martin
Churchill on the Hitchcocks list might have a four speed and is running
a 22T sprocket and drag races it. You might search the archives over
there for some of his post.

CJay