9.10 is a black eye for Ubuntu

[Clint Tinsley]

It appears that Karmic Koala was rushed out the door and is really giving Ubuntu and Linux a black eye as a very flawed, buggey release.  There have been two derogative reviews with the second one today on Linux Magazine Daily titled "Hey Ubuntu, Stop Making Linux Look Bad" and it sad to acknowledge that they are right.  The article reports that maybe 10% of the user population is getting a "succesful" working installlation and after my experience this morning, I wonder for how longed.  I did an inplace upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10, things were seriously broken.  I did a clean install, had a few challenges, not a perfect install. Then this morning, I found that my Wine menu was "reset" and one of my application folders was missing off the hard drive, this after a update that sort of worked, I think.  And like many have experienced, 9.10 is very slow to boot.  Waiting for the real release of 9.10... or atleast a remix.  I cannot recommend 9.10 to my user community.  9.04 was great, it worked, Gloria Mint 7 put on the polish.

Sorry, please no flames.

Clint

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[Mike McGinn]

On Thursday 05 November 2009 11:50:47 Clint Tinsley wrote:

> It appears that Karmic Koala was rushed out the door and is really giving
>  Ubuntu and Linux a black eye as a very flawed, buggey release.  There have
>  been two derogative reviews with the second one today on Linux Magazine
>  Daily titled "Hey Ubuntu, Stop Making Linux Look Bad" and it sad to
>  acknowledge that they are right.  The article reports that maybe 10% of
>  the user population is getting a "succesful" working installlation and
>  after my experience this morning, I wonder for how longed.  I did an
>  inplace upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10, things were seriously broken.  I did a
>  clean install, had a few challenges, not a perfect install. Then this
>  morning, I found that my Wine menu was "reset" and one of my application
>  folders was missing off the hard drive, this after a update that sort of
>  worked, I think.  And like many have experienced, 9.10 is very slow to
>  boot.  Waiting for the real release of 9.10... or atleast a remix.  I
>  cannot recommend 9.10 to my user community.  9.04 was great, it worked,
>  Gloria Mint 7 put on the polish.
>
> Sorry, please no flames.
>
> Clint
>

Totally opposite of my experience. I upgraded to the 9.10 beta a few weeks ago
from 9.04 and have had no problems with it.

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[Leonard Chatagnier-2]

--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Mike McGinn <mikemcginn@...> wrote:

> From: Mike McGinn <mikemcginn@...>
> Subject: Re: 9.10 is a black eye for Ubuntu
> To: "Ubuntu user technical support, not for general discussions" <ubuntu-users@...>
> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 11:00 AM
>
> On Thursday 05 November 2009 11:50:47 Clint Tinsley wrote:
> > It appears that Karmic Koala was rushed out the door
> and is really giving
> >  Ubuntu and Linux a black eye as a very flawed,
> buggey release.  There have
> >  been two derogative reviews with the second one
> today on Linux Magazine
> >  Daily titled "Hey Ubuntu, Stop Making Linux Look
> Bad" and it sad to
> >  acknowledge that they are right.  The
> article reports that maybe 10% of
> >  the user population is getting a "succesful"
> working installlation and
> >  after my experience this morning, I wonder for
> how longed.  I did an
> >  inplace upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10, things were
> seriously broken.  I did a
> >  clean install, had a few challenges, not a
> perfect install. Then this
> >  morning, I found that my Wine menu was "reset"
> and one of my application
> >  folders was missing off the hard drive, this
> after a update that sort of
> >  worked, I think.  And like many have
> experienced, 9.10 is very slow to
> >  boot.  Waiting for the real release of
> 9.10... or atleast a remix.  I
> >  cannot recommend 9.10 to my user
> community.  9.04 was great, it worked,
> >  Gloria Mint 7 put on the polish.
> >
> > Sorry, please no flames.
> >
> > Clint
> >
> Totally opposite of my experience. I upgraded to the 9.10
> beta a few weeks ago
> from 9.04 and have had no problems with it.
>

I too have had less issues with karmic beta than many other earlier releases.  My .02.
Leonard Chatagnier
lenc5570@...



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[Tony Arnold-3]

Mike,

Mike McGinn wrote:

> On Thursday 05 November 2009 11:50:47 Clint Tinsley wrote:
>> It appears that Karmic Koala was rushed out the door and is really giving
>>  Ubuntu and Linux a black eye as a very flawed, buggey release.  There have
>>  been two derogative reviews with the second one today on Linux Magazine
>>  Daily titled "Hey Ubuntu, Stop Making Linux Look Bad" and it sad to
>>  acknowledge that they are right.  The article reports that maybe 10% of
>>  the user population is getting a "succesful" working installlation and
>>  after my experience this morning, I wonder for how longed.  I did an
>>  inplace upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10, things were seriously broken.  I did a
>>  clean install, had a few challenges, not a perfect install. Then this
>>  morning, I found that my Wine menu was "reset" and one of my application
>>  folders was missing off the hard drive, this after a update that sort of
>>  worked, I think.  And like many have experienced, 9.10 is very slow to
>>  boot.  Waiting for the real release of 9.10... or atleast a remix.  I
>>  cannot recommend 9.10 to my user community.  9.04 was great, it worked,
>>  Gloria Mint 7 put on the polish.
>>
>> Sorry, please no flames.
>>
>> Clint
>>
> Totally opposite of my experience. I upgraded to the 9.10 beta a few weeks ago
> from 9.04 and have had no problems with it.

I agree. I've upgraded two machines and installed from fresh on another
all without any problems. Is this a case of only bad news ever being
reported?

Regards,
Tony.
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I installed Karmic Koala on a friend's computer and was completly
shocked in what bad shape it was.

I've been on Fedora for a long time, and always considered Fedora to
be quite bleeding edge and broken,
but what I've seen with Kunbuntu totally shocked me.
As soon as F12 is released, I'll install it on her laptop.

- Clemens

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[Mike McGinn]

On Thursday 05 November 2009 12:38:03 Tony Arnold wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Mike McGinn wrote:
> > On Thursday 05 November 2009 11:50:47 Clint Tinsley wrote:
> >> It appears that Karmic Koala was rushed out the door and is really
> >> giving Ubuntu and Linux a black eye as a very flawed, buggey release.
> >> There have been two derogative reviews with the second one today on
> >> Linux Magazine Daily titled "Hey Ubuntu, Stop Making Linux Look Bad" and
> >> it sad to acknowledge that they are right.  The article reports that
> >> maybe 10% of the user population is getting a "succesful" working
> >> installlation and after my experience this morning, I wonder for how
> >> longed.  I did an inplace upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10, things were
> >> seriously broken.  I did a clean install, had a few challenges, not a
> >> perfect install. Then this morning, I found that my Wine menu was
> >> "reset" and one of my application folders was missing off the hard
> >> drive, this after a update that sort of worked, I think.  And like many
> >> have experienced, 9.10 is very slow to boot.  Waiting for the real
> >> release of 9.10... or atleast a remix.  I cannot recommend 9.10 to my
> >> user community.  9.04 was great, it worked, Gloria Mint 7 put on the
> >> polish.
> >>
> >> Sorry, please no flames.
> >>
> >> Clint
> >
> > Totally opposite of my experience. I upgraded to the 9.10 beta a few
> > weeks ago from 9.04 and have had no problems with it.
>
> I agree. I've upgraded two machines and installed from fresh on another
> all without any problems. Is this a case of only bad news ever being
> reported?
>
> Regards,
> Tony.
>

Hi Tony,
It does appear that only bad news is reported, but most folks only email these
groups when they are having problems. I bet Technical Support people do not
get many calls reporting everything is OK.

Regards,
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[Roger-127]

Or some people don't have time to report problems because they are
busy fixing the problems.

For example, I have not gotten around my work (now that I'm here I may
as well) to report how STUPID and WINDOWS LIKE is the
fact that when you type "sudo apt-get update" the Graphical Update
Manager pop ups. If this is a gnome-terminal issue then please
accept my apologies if not then take it and stop fixing what was working fine.

-r

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Mike McGinn <mikemcginn@...> wrote:

>
> On Thursday 05 November 2009 12:38:03 Tony Arnold wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>> Mike McGinn wrote:
>> > On Thursday 05 November 2009 11:50:47 Clint Tinsley wrote:
>> >> It appears that Karmic Koala was rushed out the door and is really
>> >> giving Ubuntu and Linux a black eye as a very flawed, buggey release.
>> >> There have been two derogative reviews with the second one today on
>> >> Linux Magazine Daily titled "Hey Ubuntu, Stop Making Linux Look Bad" and
>> >> it sad to acknowledge that they are right.  The article reports that
>> >> maybe 10% of the user population is getting a "succesful" working
>> >> installlation and after my experience this morning, I wonder for how
>> >> longed.  I did an inplace upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10, things were
>> >> seriously broken.  I did a clean install, had a few challenges, not a
>> >> perfect install. Then this morning, I found that my Wine menu was
>> >> "reset" and one of my application folders was missing off the hard
>> >> drive, this after a update that sort of worked, I think.  And like many
>> >> have experienced, 9.10 is very slow to boot.  Waiting for the real
>> >> release of 9.10... or atleast a remix.  I cannot recommend 9.10 to my
>> >> user community.  9.04 was great, it worked, Gloria Mint 7 put on the
>> >> polish.
>> >>
>> >> Sorry, please no flames.
>> >>
>> >> Clint
>> >
>> > Totally opposite of my experience. I upgraded to the 9.10 beta a few
>> > weeks ago from 9.04 and have had no problems with it.
>>
>> I agree. I've upgraded two machines and installed from fresh on another
>> all without any problems. Is this a case of only bad news ever being
>> reported?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tony.
>>
> Hi Tony,
> It does appear that only bad news is reported, but most folks only email these
> groups when they are having problems. I bet Technical Support people do not
> get many calls reporting everything is OK.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Mike McGinn
> No electrons were harmed in sending this message.
> My deeds are my dearest companions.  I am the beneficiary of my deeds.
> My deeds are the ground on which I stand.  ** Registered Linux User 377849
>
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[Tony Arnold-3]

Roger,

Roger wrote:
> Or some people don't have time to report problems because they are
> busy fixing the problems.
>
> For example, I have not gotten around my work (now that I'm here I may
> as well) to report how STUPID and WINDOWS LIKE is the
> fact that when you type "sudo apt-get update" the Graphical Update
> Manager pop ups.

My fresh install certainly does not do this! Something very broken on
your system, but I don't think it is a general fault with Ubuntu.

Regards,
Tony.
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IT Services Division, Kilburn Building, Oxford Road, Manchester M13 9PL.
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[thomas-257]

I agree. This is a most unfortunate development. Too bad everyone can't
just go back to 9.04 without a lot of trouble.

Thomas

Clint Tinsley wrote:
> It appears that Karmic Koala was rushed out the door and is really giving Ubuntu and Linux a black eye as a very flawed, buggey release.  There have been two derogative reviews with the second one today on Linux Magazine Daily titled "Hey Ubuntu, Stop Making Linux Look Bad" and it sad to acknowledge that they are right.  The article reports that maybe 10% of the user population is getting a "succesful" working installlation and after my experience this morning, I wonder for how longed.  I did an inplace upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10, things were seriously broken.  I did a clean install, had a few challenges, not a perfect install. Then this morning, I found that my Wine menu was "reset" and one of my application folders was missing off the hard drive, this after a update that sort of worked, I think.  And like many have experienced, 9.10 is very slow to boot.  Waiting for the real release of 9.10... or atleast a remix.  I cannot recommend 9.10 to my user community.  9.04 was great, it worked, Gloria Mint 7 put on the polish.
>
> Sorry, please no flames.
>
> Clint
>
>  



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[Roger-127]

Tony,

Even though I'm not happy about the fact that it happens the fact that
it's only happening to me (as far as I am concerned) is good.
Thank you for letting me know that in your case something like that is
not happening.

As a note, I did a fresh install (RC actually) and also I have been
having this issue for the past, 2 or 3 releases.

-r

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 1:17 PM, Tony Arnold
<tony.arnold@...> wrote:

> Roger,
>
> Roger wrote:
>> Or some people don't have time to report problems because they are
>> busy fixing the problems.
>>
>> For example, I have not gotten around my work (now that I'm here I may
>> as well) to report how STUPID and WINDOWS LIKE is the
>> fact that when you type "sudo apt-get update" the Graphical Update
>> Manager pop ups.
>
> My fresh install certainly does not do this! Something very broken on
> your system, but I don't think it is a general fault with Ubuntu.
>
> Regards,
> Tony.
> --
> Tony Arnold, IT Security Coordinator, University of Manchester,
> IT Services Division, Kilburn Building, Oxford Road, Manchester M13 9PL.
> T: [phone], F: [phone], M: [phone]
> E: tony.arnold@..., H: http://www.man.ac.uk/Tony.Arnold
>
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[Hal Burgiss]

On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 09:50:47AM -0700, Clint Tinsley wrote:
> community.  9.04 was great, it worked, Gloria Mint 7 put on the polish.

YMMV, 9.04 sucked out loud for me. But kinda the point of a 6 month release
cycle is to always have new->better->different. The safe choice is LTS that is
more conservative and you don't have to worry about what side of "bleeding
edge" you wind up on, the painful or the cute.

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[Fred Roller]

Hal Burgiss wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 09:50:47AM -0700, Clint Tinsley wrote:
>  
>> community.  9.04 was great, it worked, Gloria Mint 7 put on the polish.
>>    
>
> YMMV, 9.04 sucked out loud for me. But kinda the point of a 6 month release
> cycle is to always have new->better->different. The safe choice is LTS that is
> more conservative and you don't have to worry about what side of "bleeding
> edge" you wind up on, the painful or the cute.
>
>  

+1

Why are new users being encouraged to use the latest and greatest
release.  LTS is where I point new users unless they are up for working
with the the development.  Karmic is making a bunch of changes which
seem fundamental and will inherently have bugs which need to be worked
out.  Heck, even a LTS will have some issues depending on user and
hardware.  What I don't agree with is having the 6 month release more
prominent on the download page than the LTS; or at least having LTS a
bit more obvious for new users.

We should also consider moving this discussion to Sounder.

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[Arthur H. Johnson II-2]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Fred Roller <froller@...> wrote:

> Hal Burgiss wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 09:50:47AM -0700, Clint Tinsley wrote:
>>
>>> community.  9.04 was great, it worked, Gloria Mint 7 put on the polish.
>>>
>>
>> YMMV, 9.04 sucked out loud for me. But kinda the point of a 6 month release
>> cycle is to always have new->better->different. The safe choice is LTS that is
>> more conservative and you don't have to worry about what side of "bleeding
>> edge" you wind up on, the painful or the cute.
>>
>>
> +1
>
> Why are new users being encouraged to use the latest and greatest
> release.  LTS is where I point new users unless they are up for working
> with the the development.  Karmic is making a bunch of changes which
> seem fundamental and will inherently have bugs which need to be worked
> out.  Heck, even a LTS will have some issues depending on user and
> hardware.  What I don't agree with is having the 6 month release more
> prominent on the download page than the LTS; or at least having LTS a
> bit more obvious for new users.
>
> We should also consider moving this discussion to Sounder.

I haven't had a single issue with 9.10.  My laptop upgraded without
problems, and I have a fresh install on my desktop (new build)

I've been pretty happy.

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[Peter N. Spotts]

On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:49:59 -0500
Mike McGinn <mikemcginn@...> wrote:


>snip<
> >
> Hi Tony,
> It does appear that only bad news is reported, but most folks only
> email these groups when they are having problems. I bet Technical
> Support people do not get many calls reporting everything is OK.
>


Probably right, there. I also wonder if the problems are more
likely to affect (be spotted by) power users rather than us civilians?
I installed 9.10b on a seven-year-old Toshiba satellite 32-bit and a
one-year-old Dell 64-bit. The Toshiba was an on-line upgrade from
9.04, the Dell a clean install from 9.04. Both machines haven't skipped
a beat.

The gremlins are fickle as they flit about within the Ubuntu
crowd!  ;-)

With best regards,

Pete
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[Ray Leventhal-2]

Clint Tinsley wrote:
> It appears that Karmic Koala was rushed out the door and is really giving Ubuntu and Linux a black eye as a very flawed, buggey release.  There have been two derogative reviews with the second one today on Linux Magazine Daily titled "Hey Ubuntu, Stop Making Linux Look Bad" and it sad to acknowledge that they are right.  The article reports that maybe 10% of the user population is getting a "succesful" working installlation and after my experience this morning, I wonder for how longed.  I did an inplace upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10, things were seriously broken.  I did a clean install, had a few challenges, not a perfect install. Then this morning, I found that my Wine menu was "reset" and one of my application folders was missing off the hard drive, this after a update that sort of worked, I think.  And like many have experienced, 9.10 is very slow to boot.  Waiting for the real release of 9.10... or atleast a remix.  I cannot recommend 9.10 to my user community.  9.04 was g
re!
>  at, it worked, Gloria Mint 7 put on the polish.
>
> Sorry, please no flames.
>
> Clint
>
Clint,

While I (and I'm sure others) are very sorry you're having this
experience, I must say its quite the opposite for the 17 systems on
which I've done in-line upgrades this week (all from 9.04 to 9.10).

Further, the fresh installs (3 of them) went flawlessly as well.

Of my 17 in-line upgrades, 8 were done from internet/downloads, the
other 9 from alternate CD.

No issues, everything's working (with one minor exception of wicd
kludging on one of the upgrades, easily fixed).

My experience has been wonderful.

My .02
-Ray

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[thomas-257]

Ray, it is good that you had a trouble free experience.

But, most of us did not.

Ray Leventhal wrote:

> Clint Tinsley wrote:
>  
>> It appears that Karmic Koala was rushed out the door and is really giving Ubuntu and Linux a black eye as a very flawed, buggey release.  There have been two derogative reviews with the second one today on Linux Magazine Daily titled "Hey Ubuntu, Stop Making Linux Look Bad" and it sad to acknowledge that they are right.  The article reports that maybe 10% of the user population is getting a "succesful" working installlation and after my experience this morning, I wonder for how longed.  I did an inplace upgrade from 9.04 to 9.10, things were seriously broken.  I did a clean install, had a few challenges, not a perfect install. Then this morning, I found that my Wine menu was "reset" and one of my application folders was missing off the hard drive, this after a update that sort of worked, I think.  And like many have experienced, 9.10 is very slow to boot.  Waiting for the real release of 9.10... or atleast a remix.  I cannot recommend 9.10 to my user community.  9.04 was g
>>    
> re!
>  
>>  at, it worked, Gloria Mint 7 put on the polish.
>>
>> Sorry, please no flames.
>>
>> Clint
>>
>>    
> Clint,
>
> While I (and I'm sure others) are very sorry you're having this
> experience, I must say its quite the opposite for the 17 systems on
> which I've done in-line upgrades this week (all from 9.04 to 9.10).
>
> Further, the fresh installs (3 of them) went flawlessly as well.
>
> Of my 17 in-line upgrades, 8 were done from internet/downloads, the
> other 9 from alternate CD.
>
> No issues, everything's working (with one minor exception of wicd
> kludging on one of the upgrades, easily fixed).
>
> My experience has been wonderful.
>
> My .02
> -Ray
>
>  

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[SteVe Cook]

On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:26:12 -0000, thomas <valhalla2100@...>  
wrote:

> Ray, it is good that you had a trouble free experience.
>
> But, most of us did not.
>
Where do you get the idea that most of us didn’t have a good experience  
upgrading to 9.10?
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[Tab Gilbert]

>

Where do you get the idea that most of us didn’t have a good experience
upgrading to 9.10?
--

There are a couple of minor problems/bugs but nothing like what some folks on the other side of the fence have had to deal with.   I am just glad I was not one of those Vista to Windows 7 upgrade folks that got into the endless restart loop.

tab

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[Rashkae-2]

thomas wrote:
> Ray, it is good that you had a trouble free experience.
>
> But, most of us did not.
>

I can appreciate the need to vent when you're the unlucky demographic
that gets issues on an upgrade, and there always is one.

However, I've been an active participant of this list for the past 2
years or so, and judging by what I've been seeing here so far, the 9.10
upgrade is the smoothest most trouble free yet.  (Caveat: that's hardly
a scientific sampling, and assumes that the mailing list still receives
the same percentage of help requests.)

You should be careful with words/phrases that are hyperbolic.  In this
case, I think "most of us" is not remotely close to reality.

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[Ray Leventhal-2]

Rashkae wrote:

> thomas wrote:
>> Ray, it is good that you had a trouble free experience.
>>
>> But, most of us did not.
>>
>
> I can appreciate the need to vent when you're the unlucky demographic
> that gets issues on an upgrade, and there always is one.
>
> However, I've been an active participant of this list for the past 2
> years or so, and judging by what I've been seeing here so far, the 9.10
> upgrade is the smoothest most trouble free yet.  (Caveat: that's hardly
> a scientific sampling, and assumes that the mailing list still receives
> the same percentage of help requests.)
>
> You should be careful with words/phrases that are hyperbolic.  In this
> case, I think "most of us" is not remotely close to reality.
>

+1, Rashkae.  This has been nearly seamless, imnsho.

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