A Question of Temperature

[blimpship]

I've been reading more and more about the operations of airships recently and can't decide whether I'm missing something or there is some contradictory information out there.

Some info speaks of the rise in outside (air) temperature and how it degrades the performance of an airship, whilst other reports tell of how sun warming the envelope (and I assume heating the helium inside) provides increased lift.

Can anyone clear this up for me? What effect does temperature have on the capability of an airship?

[Andreas G]

Hey there I have created a little blogpost regarding your question.
Hope you enjoy it

http://airshipworld.blogspot.com/2008/03/question-of-temperature-warm-air-and.html

Regards

Andreas

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 1:47 PM, blimpship <duncan.rice@...> wrote:

>
>  I've been reading more and more about the operations of airships recently and
>  can't decide whether I'm missing something or there is some contradictory
>  information out there.
>
>  Some info speaks of the rise in outside (air) temperature and how it
>  degrades the performance of an airship, whilst other reports tell of how sun
>  warming the envelope (and I assume heating the helium inside) provides
>  increased lift.
>
>  Can anyone clear this up for me? What effect does temperature have on the
>  capability of an airship?
>
>  -----
>  the past, present and future of airships :  http://www.blimpship.com
>  blimpship.com
>  --
>  View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/A-Question-of-Temperature-tp16274781p16274781.html
>  Sent from the The Airshipworld Mailinglist mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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>  The-List mailing list
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[blimpship]

Thanks for the blog post in reply to my original question, and yes it was the mention of superheat on the goodyear blimp blog that got me thinking about this.

I have been trawling through my recent internet history to try and find the source of a related question, but can't seem to find it. The question...

Why don't we use heated helium to provide increased lift?

It would seem that, as helium is an inert gas, there would be no reason why it couldn't be heated within an envelope. Not just in the superheat sense, but in a similar way to hot-air balloons or hot-air airships - why not hot-helium airships?

Would it not be possible to increase the temperature of the lift gas in proporsion to the extra lift needed based on the weight of the cargo being carried?

It seems so obvious now, there must be a reason that it wouldn't work or surely we would have done it long ago.

[Nicholas J. Rogers]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

I'm sure I read about this being done somewhere... Maybe it was in the US Navy rigids?
 
Or maybe I'm going mad and my memory has imploded...
 
Nicholas

> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 03:28:03 -0700
> From: duncan.rice@...
> To: the-list@...
> Subject: [Airshipworld List] Heating Helium?
>
>
> Thanks for the blog post in reply to my original question, and yes it was the
> mention of superheat on the goodyear blimp blog that got me thinking about
> this.
>
> I have been trawling through my recent internet history to try and find the
> source of a related question, but can't seem to find it. The question...
>
> Why don't we use heated helium to provide increased lift?
>
> It would seem that, as helium is an inert gas, there would be no reason why
> it couldn't be heated within an envelope. Not just in the superheat sense,
> but in a similar way to hot-air balloons or hot-air airships - why not
> hot-helium airships?
>
> Would it not be possible to increase the temperature of the lift gas in
> proporsion to the extra lift needed based on the weight of the cargo being
> carried?
>
> It seems so obvious now, there must be a reason that it wouldn't work or
> surely we would have done it long ago.
>
>
>
> -----
> the past, present and future of airships : http://www.blimpship.com
> blimpship.com
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/A-Question-of-Temperature-tp16274781p16299635.html
> Sent from the The Airshipworld Mailinglist mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> The-List mailing list
> The-List@...
> http://airshipworld.info/mailman/listinfo/the-list_airshipworld.info

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[Andreas Burkart]

This was used by Picard for the Breitling Orbiter.
The principle is called, Rozière balloon, but I never read about
airships that used this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitling_Orbiter_3#The_balloon






2008/3/26, Nicholas J. Rogers <n_j_rogers@...>:

>
>  I'm sure I read about this being done somewhere... Maybe it was in the US
> Navy rigids?
>
>  Or maybe I'm going mad and my memory has imploded...
>
>  Nicholas
>
> > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 03:28:03 -0700
> > From: duncan.rice@...
> > To: the-list@...
> > Subject: [Airshipworld List] Heating Helium?
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks for the blog post in reply to my original question, and yes it was
> the
> > mention of superheat on the goodyear blimp blog that got me thinking about
> > this.
> >
> > I have been trawling through my recent internet history to try and find
> the
> > source of a related question, but can't seem to find it. The question...
> >
> > Why don't we use heated helium to provide increased lift?
> >
> > It would seem that, as helium is an inert gas, there would be no reason
> why
> > it couldn't be heated within an envelope. Not just in the superheat sense,
> > but in a similar way to hot-air balloons or hot-air airships - why not
> > hot-helium airships?
> >
> > Would it not be possible to increase the temperature of the lift gas in
> > proporsion to the extra lift needed based on the weight of the cargo being
> > carried?
> >
> > It seems so obvious now, there must be a reason that it wouldn't work or
> > surely we would have done it long ago.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > the past, present and future of airships : http://www.blimpship.com
> > blimpship.com
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/A-Question-of-Temperature-tp16274781p16299635.html
> > Sent from the The Airshipworld Mailinglist mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > The-List mailing list
> > The-List@...
> >
> http://airshipworld.info/mailman/listinfo/the-list_airshipworld.info
>
>
> ________________________________
> Get fish-slapping on Messenger Play now!
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>  The-List mailing list
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[Nicholas J. Rogers]

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The first Roziere met with rather a sticky end!
 
I'm at work, so I don't have my airship books to hand, but I do recall reading something about experiments with a heating element inside the gas bags. As has been mentioned, it's such a simple idea one would have expected some sort of tests with it.
 
Nicholas

> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:47:10 +0100
> From: Andreas.Burkart@...
> To: the-list@...
> Subject: Re: [Airshipworld List] Heating Helium?
>
> This was used by Picard for the Breitling Orbiter.
> The principle is called, Rozière balloon, but I never read about
> airships that used this.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitling_Orbiter_3#The_balloon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2008/3/26, Nicholas J. Rogers <n_j_rogers@...>:
> >
> > I'm sure I read about this being done somewhere... Maybe it was in the US
> > Navy rigids?
> >
> > Or maybe I'm going mad and my memory has imploded...
> >
> > Nicholas
> >
> > > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 03:28:03 -0700
> > > From: duncan.rice@...
> > > To: the-list@...
> > > Subject: [Airshipworld List] Heating Helium?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for the blog post in reply to my original question, and yes it was
> > the
> > > mention of superheat on the goodyear blimp blog that got me thinking about
> > > this.
> > >
> > > I have been trawling through my recent internet history to try and find
> > the
> > > source of a related question, but can't seem to find it. The question...
> > >
> > > Why don't we use heated helium to provide increased lift?
> > >
> > > It would seem that, as helium is an inert gas, there would be no reason
> > why
> > > it couldn't be heated within an envelope. Not just in the superheat sense,
> > > but in a similar way to hot-air balloons or hot-air airships - why not
> > > hot-helium airships?
> > >
> > > Would it not be possible to increase the temperature of the lift gas in
> > > proporsion to the extra lift needed based on the weight of the cargo being
> > > carried?
> > >
> > > It seems so obvious now, there must be a reason that it wouldn't work or
> > > surely we would have done it long ago.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > the past, present and future of airships : http://www.blimpship.com
> > > blimpship.com
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> > http://www.nabble.com/A-Question-of-Temperature-tp16274781p16299635.html
> > > Sent from the The Airshipworld Mailinglist mailing list archive at
> > Nabble.com.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > The-List mailing list
> > > The-List@...
> > >
> > http://airshipworld.info/mailman/listinfo/the-list_airshipworld.info
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > Get fish-slapping on Messenger Play now!
> > _______________________________________________
> > The-List mailing list
> > The-List@...
> > http://airshipworld.info/mailman/listinfo/the-list_airshipworld.info
> >
> >
>
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[Nicholas J. Rogers]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

The first Roziere met with rather a sticky end!
 
I'm at work, so I don't have my airship books to hand, but I do recall reading something about experiments with a heating element inside the gas bags. As has been mentioned, it's such a simple idea one would have expected some sort of tests with it.
 
Nicholas

> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:47:10 +0100
> From: Andreas.Burkart@...
> To: the-list@...
> Subject: Re: [Airshipworld List] Heating Helium?
>
> This was used by Picard for the Breitling Orbiter.
> The principle is called, Rozière balloon, but I never read about
> airships that used this.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitling_Orbiter_3#The_balloon
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2008/3/26, Nicholas J. Rogers <n_j_rogers@...>:
> >
> > I'm sure I read about this being done somewhere... Maybe it was in the US
> > Navy rigids?
> >
> > Or maybe I'm going mad and my memory has imploded...
> >
> > Nicholas
> >
> > > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 03:28:03 -0700
> > > From: duncan.rice@...
> > > To: the-list@...
> > > Subject: [Airshipworld List] Heating Helium?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for the blog post in reply to my original question, and yes it was
> > the
> > > mention of superheat on the goodyear blimp blog that got me thinking about
> > > this.
> > >
> > > I have been trawling through my recent internet history to try and find
> > the
> > > source of a related question, but can't seem to find it. The question...
> > >
> > > Why don't we use heated helium to provide increased lift?
> > >
> > > It would seem that, as helium is an inert gas, there would be no reason
> > why
> > > it couldn't be heated within an envelope. Not just in the superheat sense,
> > > but in a similar way to hot-air balloons or hot-air airships - why not
> > > hot-helium airships?
> > >
> > > Would it not be possible to increase the temperature of the lift gas in
> > > proporsion to the extra lift needed based on the weight of the cargo being
> > > carried?
> > >
> > > It seems so obvious now, there must be a reason that it wouldn't work or
> > > surely we would have done it long ago.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
> > > the past, present and future of airships : http://www.blimpship.com
> > > blimpship.com
> > > --
> > > View this message in context:
> > http://www.nabble.com/A-Question-of-Temperature-tp16274781p16299635.html
> > > Sent from the The Airshipworld Mailinglist mailing list archive at
> > Nabble.com.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > The-List mailing list
> > > The-List@...
> > >
> > http://airshipworld.info/mailman/listinfo/the-list_airshipworld.info
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > Get fish-slapping on Messenger Play now!
> > _______________________________________________
> > The-List mailing list
> > The-List@...
> > http://airshipworld.info/mailman/listinfo/the-list_airshipworld.info
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> The-List mailing list
> The-List@...
> http://airshipworld.info/mailman/listinfo/the-list_airshipworld.info

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[blimpship]

Andreas Burkart wrote:

This was used by Picard for the Breitling Orbiter.
The principle is called, Rozière balloon, but I never read about
airships that used this.

It would seem that the Breitling Orbiter used the natural expansion of the gas at altitiude to provide the extra lift, the wikipedia article stating that the gas bag was filled to only 47% on take off.

I have found this short article relating to some Naval School thesis relating to tests on a dual enveloped airship using heating systems inside the internal envelope.

"These indicate that the simple use of airship engine exhaust heat will give more than a 30% increase in gross airship lift"

I might just have to buy this report and see if we can't get some more info on heating helium in airships.

[Andreas Burkart]

The expansion of the gas at a higher altitude does not provide any extra lift.
The higher you fly, the less pressure is around you, so the gas will
expand. But as the gas expands, the outside air expands as well. So
the weight difference between air and helium that provides the lift,
will decrease.
That means, the higher you fly, the less lifting capacity the airship will have.
This is one of the reason why the big airhships used low altitudes
like 300meters.

The Breitling Orbiter was using the heating provided by the sun at
day. And at night, the temperature of the helium was keeped by
burners, to maintain altitude.

http://www.breitling.com/orbiter/breit98/eng/projet/techniq/systemes.html

I´m sorry for the worse english I´ve to use, while I´m not a native
speaker and still training...


This heating of Helium is pretty interesting, I´ll do some
calculations later on.

Greetings,
andreas







2008/3/26, blimpship <duncan.rice@...>:

>
>
>  Andreas Burkart wrote:
>  >
>  > This was used by Picard for the Breitling Orbiter.
>  > The principle is called, Rozière balloon, but I never read about
>  > airships that used this.
>
>
> It would seem that the Breitling Orbiter used the natural expansion of the
>  gas at altitiude to provide the extra lift, the wikipedia article stating
>  that the gas bag was filled to only 47% on take off.
>
>  I have found
>  http://www.stormingmedia.co.uk/68/6873/A687381.html?PHPSESSID=610ea123ae919a27de61b87eb7811970
>  this short article  relating to some Naval School thesis relating to tests
>  on a dual enveloped airship using heating systems inside the internal
>  envelope.
>
>  "These indicate that the simple use of airship engine exhaust heat will give
>  more than a 30% increase in gross airship lift"
>
>  I might just have to buy this report and see if we can't get some more info
>  on heating helium in airships.
>
>
>  -----
>  the past, present and future of airships :  http://www.blimpship.com
>  blimpship.com
>  --
>
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/A-Question-of-Temperature-tp16274781p16300790.html
>
> Sent from the The Airshipworld Mailinglist mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  The-List mailing list
>  The-List@...
>  http://airshipworld.info/mailman/listinfo/the-list_airshipworld.info
>

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[Andreas G]

Hey Everybody,
great to see that my Blogpost started a small discussion. I am missing these discussion ever since the Colorado Airship-List stopped working. I wish there were more people on this list. It would be great to see this list flourish and to become something like the Airship-List, so if you know people who would be interested invite them to join the List, it's a Forum just as much as it is a Mailinglist. I don't know if the Airship-list exists anymore or if it is gone for good. But in the meanwhile I think we are able to fill this void with our cozy small list.

Thanks everyone who has already subscribed.

Regards

Andreas

[blimpship]

In reply to the comment from Andreas...

Andreas G wrote:

Hey Everybody, great to see that my Blogpost started a small discussion.

...it certainly did.

Now I've got a related question - I remember from learning about aircraft years ago that the reason most aeroplanes are white is because it reflects the suns heat and prevents the aircraft overheating. There was a story about Pepsi sponsoring a Concorde and having it painted blue, but the new livery meant that the plane built up so much heat that it was unable to fly!

For the same reason Stealth Aircraft are black, as the plane does not emit so much heat and thus avoids detection. So the question is...

...would a black envelope store heat better and increase lift?

By this I mean, if we assume that heated helium would increase lift (superheat) could having a black envelope help maintain this higher temperature? The suns heat would still warm the envelope, the black colouring would prevent the heat dispersing too quickly and an internal lift gas heating system could all combine to give a lifting capability which exceeds the size of the envelope.

If I'm wrong - tell me why
If I'm right - you can name the first black blimp after me!

[Martien Bakker]

Hi all,

blimpship asked:

> ...would a black envelope store heat better and increase lift?

To my knowledge, regarding heat, the black envelope would do 2 things
simultaneously:
1. catch solar radiation and heat up. When the the gas inside is cooler,
some of the surface heat gets transfered to the inside.
2. radiate. Deep black is a very good heat radiator.
So, a black surface warms and cools at the same time.
Additionally, 'Fly wind' wil cool the warm surface, starting heat transfer
form inside to outside.

Where the equilibrium in this story lies, I have no idea. My hunch is that
it will work, because it works too for those small cigar-like toy blimps.
Additional internal heating, that's another questionmark: how, where and
with what extra gear, weight? Is the lift from this all just enough to
compensate itself?

Mart | Rotterdam

> By this I mean, if we assume that heated helium would increase lift
> (superheat) could having a black envelope help maintain this higher
> temperature? The suns heat would still warm the envelope, the black
> colouring would prevent the heat dispersing too quickly and an
> internal lift gas heating system could all combine to give a lifting
capability which
> exceeds the size of the envelope.
>
> If I'm wrong - tell me why
> If I'm right - you can name the first black blimp after me!



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[Mad scientist]

it will work!!!

[Crea87]

Hey everyone, just getting into this so I don't know how credible my theories are but I just can't help myself.. Airships are so inspiring!  

Anyway, on the question of temperature and color.  It would seem to me that a solar electric airship would be a great answer to this question. Im sure the concept has been discussed before, but I believe by combining multiple systems we could achieve unparalleled lift from a small envelope, or at least more than would normally be had from the helium alone.

Using the already existing massive surface area of the outer envelope we can use thin-film photovoltaic cells to collect energy, stored in battery cells onboard. Thin Film is lightweight and can absorb energy from a far greater angle than traditional silicon cells.  Now, normally a design issue with any solar system is heat dissipation. As you might imagine a black energy gathering surface is going to put off a great deal of heat.  For our purposes this is a good thing!  The extra heat will transfer to the inner helium bag giving increased lift during the day.  It is important to note that the more modern thin-film solar cells do not actually need this heat for energy production, so a double purpose system would work great, continually feeding itself.  One of the advantages of airships is that they can fly for extended periods of time: weeks, months etc. So, what to do at night when the sun is hiding?  The energy collected during the day and stored can be used similarly to a simple electric blanket to keep the envelope heated at night.  This layer could also potentially have a sort of insulating property to it as well, retaining solar gain inside the manifold well after the sun has set. This is a far simpler method than any sort of combustion engine would allow I believe as it would hopefully be lighter and less dangerous. Weight is always an issue of course, so these layers would need to be combined into a super skin for the envelope.  This skin would need to be flexible of course, to leave room for expansion/depression.

Other ideas for improving this superheated contraption include an outer coating that is reactive to small electrical fields.  One side black(with PV cells), the other white. By reversing your low voltage field you could change the outer envelope's heating abilities.  Black for power and heat absorption and white for cool-down/decent. This technology exists already.

Although electric motors are heavy along with the batteries they require, I believe this sort of system would need very little maintenance or battery capacity (weight) and would still be able to remain aloft for as long as the pilot's food/water lasts.  Electric is the answer I think, although I could just be responding to my general dislike of noisy, polluting and constantly guzzling combustion engines.  The main advantage is still of course that you get a significant increase in lifting ability without increasing envelope size dramatically.

Again, this is all theory and Im way more of an artist than I am an engineer so feel free to tear holes in my virtual thought bubble.  Although if there is helium in my head also then it will just gently float to the ground ;)   If I could get my scanner going I could post some drawings, but alas it is all scanned out.

[TURTLEAIRSHIPS]

blimpship wrote:

Some info speaks of the rise in outside (air) temperature and how it degrades the performance of an airship, whilst other reports tell of how sun warming the envelope (and I assume heating the helium inside) provides increased lift.

Can anyone clear this up for me? What effect does temperature have on the capability of an airship?

Okay.   You must always bear in mind that airships rely upon buoyancy.   Read that as DISPLACEMENT of air.  Say the volume of your airship is (x).   If the air outside is cool, it will cause the lifting gas (x) inside your envelope to cool as well, and contract.  (x minus whatever)  This reduces the displacement...therefore reduces buoyancy.

Opposite....if your airship flies in the sun too long, picks up to much sunshine and heats up....it causes the lifting gas inside to expand.  (x plus whatever)  That's just fine, if your airship can expand as well.....you'd be displacing more air and therefore would be more buoyant.  

Ah, but if your airship can't expand...then it might burst at the seams, neh?    Unless you allow some of that expanding gas to vent away.   Then you're ok.   Until,oh, you fly under a clouds and everything cools down again.   Then,  the airship goes back to the original temperature, in which case, you have allowed gas you now need to vent away...and so down you come.

You may run into the idea of Heating the helium inside an airship to increase lift.   That is a false idea.  It would only work if your airship displaces more air...that is, if it gets bigger.   Like a balloon filling up.   Heating lifting gas inside the airship does nothing, if the envelope or gas cells cannot expand.   Most "airships"  (blimps) CAN expand a little, but soon reach a dangerous level...just like blowing to much air into a balloon.    Pop!

[Andreas Burkart-2]

In reply to the long interesting comment about heating the lifting gas.

I´ve a question about the effect of the heating. Think about 1 m³ of
pure Helium with about 20°C temperature. Now we push the temperature
to 100°C by some heating devices, discussed before.
How much will the lift increase by the heating, and how much the 1m³
will expand?

This is maybe the most interesting question before heating of the
lifting gas is considered to be usefull.
Is there a formula you could use?

Greetings,
andreas

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[Mad scientist]

Yes there Is a formula you could use...........

More like Blue prints of how to give helium more lifting power
enough to reach way beyond the clouds.
Lifting cars that weight 2 to 10,000lbs
Not going to happen....I wouldn't say that.
Funny thing is..If I tell how to control the helium,
Everybody will try it.. and yes i will not get the credit.
and yes my funds won't let me finish my theory.......
BUT...I've done smaller testings.....

I don't believe that helium was put on earth
to blow party balloons up!!
or (weather balloons or Airships) or help you breath in the water.
Yes it does do all the above but
how about lifting heavy wood, glass, plastics or even metal.
"Or letting Airships have more lifting power"
(First of all why the big balloon on Airships)
Ah duh that's what helps lift it
hmmmm??? "I wonder if they know"

Do a little test for me, Put a buckshot or BB in a balloon  
then fill it up with helium then tell me what it does....
Will it float to the center or rise to the top
or just sit at the bottom.
Little note: increase the BB's and/or buck shots.
"Oh no the balloons falling to the ground"
Wait.................

I will have more to that little test
and a website soon for this theory and test
Not just a theory......A goal

If wondering I'm not a kid, No day dreaming over here.
31 years old to be exact
Be back soon..............