A laptop installation challenge

[AG-21]

On a previous thread, I had polled some advice on the best way to
install Debian on an old laptop that lacked a CD drive.  A number of
suggestions were made and I eventually went with the idea of changing
the pre-existing /boot/lilo.conf and adding a newly downloaded vmlinuz
and init.gz Then I copied a netinst *.iso image onto a USB stick and booted.

All went well, and I was able to install a new Debian system.  However,
when I went to reboot into the system I received the "EBDA is big;
kernel setup stack overlaps LILO second stage" message.  Googling this
message throws back a number of suggested solutions which break down
into one of two choices - changing the lilo.conf file (difficult since I
cannot get into the lilo.conf due to the system having been locked at
boot up) and using a rescue CD (difficult because it has no CD drive to
work with).  I cannot ssh into the laptop because it hasn't booted and
so I am left with a laptop that cannot boot, cannot use a CD disk to
boot and which is fundamentally useless.

Can anyone suggest a way that I can get this thing to boot given the
significant constraints described or has this now been reduced to a hunk
of plastic for use as a doorstop?

Thanks for any ideas.


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[S. Fishpaste]

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 15:41:44 +0000, AG in gmane.linux.debian.user wrote:

> On a previous thread, I had polled some advice on the best way to
> install Debian on an old laptop that lacked a CD drive.  A number of
> suggestions were made and I eventually went with the idea of changing
> the pre-existing /boot/lilo.conf and adding a newly downloaded vmlinuz
> and init.gz Then I copied a netinst *.iso image onto a USB stick and booted.
>
> All went well, and I was able to install a new Debian system.  However,
> when I went to reboot into the system I received the "EBDA is big;
> kernel setup stack overlaps LILO second stage" message.  Googling this
> message throws back a number of suggested solutions which break down
> into one of two choices - changing the lilo.conf file (difficult since I
> cannot get into the lilo.conf due to the system having been locked at
> boot up) and using a rescue CD (difficult because it has no CD drive to
> work with).  I cannot ssh into the laptop because it hasn't booted and
> so I am left with a laptop that cannot boot, cannot use a CD disk to
> boot and which is fundamentally useless.
>
> Can anyone suggest a way that I can get this thing to boot given the
> significant constraints described or has this now been reduced to a hunk
> of plastic for use as a doorstop?

Does it have a floppy drive? If so, Etch should have some floppy
install/rescue images.


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[Umarzuki Mochlis]

Taking the laptop's hard disk and using it as a secondary hard disk on another computer with mini ide to ide converter would do the trick. If you have another computer and said converter. 

2009/10/31 AG <computing.account@...>

On a previous thread, I had polled some advice on the best way to install Debian on an old laptop that lacked a CD drive.  A number of suggestions were made and I eventually went with the idea of changing the pre-existing /boot/lilo.conf and adding a newly downloaded vmlinuz and init.gz Then I copied a netinst *.iso image onto a USB stick and booted.

All went well, and I was able to install a new Debian system.  However, when I went to reboot into the system I received the "EBDA is big; kernel setup stack overlaps LILO second stage" message.  Googling this message throws back a number of suggested solutions which break down into one of two choices - changing the lilo.conf file (difficult since I cannot get into the lilo.conf due to the system having been locked at boot up) and using a rescue CD (difficult because it has no CD drive to work with).  I cannot ssh into the laptop because it hasn't booted and so I am left with a laptop that cannot boot, cannot use a CD disk to boot and which is fundamentally useless.

Can anyone suggest a way that I can get this thing to boot given the significant constraints described or has this now been reduced to a hunk of plastic for use as a doorstop?

Thanks for any ideas.


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Regards,

Umarzuki Mochlis
http://gameornot.net

[Tim Tebbit]

AG wrote:

> Then I copied a netinst *.iso image onto a USB stick and
> booted.

> Thanks for any ideas.

Does this mean you can boot from USB? If that's the case a simple
debootstrap install from knoppix would be fairly quick and easy.

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/apds03.html.en


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[AG-21]

Tim Tebbit wrote:

AG wrote:

  

Then I copied a netinst *.iso image onto a USB stick and
booted.
    

Thanks for any ideas.
    

Does this mean you can boot from USB? If that's the case a simple
debootstrap install from knoppix would be fairly quick and easy.

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/apds03.html.en


  

Thanks guys for your ideas.

In no order of priority, the responses to your suggestions:

(1) I tried removing the HD but cannot get to it (there are three screws that are threaded) and I don't really want to break open the plastic casing.

(2) Yes, it does have a floppy drive but I have no other machine that can write to floppies, so don't know how I could transfer any floppy boot-image to a floppy

(3) The laptop's BIOS is too old to allow booting from a USB (only allows HD, CD or floppy).  It requires something to boot first before it can mount additional files such a USB stick.

This is currently seeming like an impossible challenge, but I am reluctant to give up because the machine itself is pretty decent albeit a few years' old and without a CD drive.

Any other ideas?

[Jesús M. Navarro-2]

Hi, AG:

On Saturday 31 October 2009 18:49:14 AG wrote:
> Tim Tebbit wrote:

[...]

> (3) The laptop's BIOS is too old to allow booting from a USB (only
> allows HD, CD or floppy).  It requires something to boot first before it
> can mount additional files such a USB stick.

Does it support booting from network (PXE?)? What other boot up methods are
supported? (leaving appart floppy and hard disk).


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[AG-21]

Jesús M. Navarro wrote:

Hi, AG:

On Saturday 31 October 2009 18:49:14 AG wrote:
  

Tim Tebbit wrote:
    

[...]

  

(3) The laptop's BIOS is too old to allow booting from a USB (only
allows HD, CD or floppy).  It requires something to boot first before it
can mount additional files such a USB stick.
    

Does it support booting from network (PXE?)? What other boot up methods are 
supported? (leaving appart floppy and hard disk).


  

Only the three options noted - CD, floppy and HD.  The BIOS does not (appear to) support PXE ... at least that is not given as an option anyway.

[Klistvud]

Grub allows editing on-the-fly (when the Grub menu appears, you can
press e and edit Grub stanzas directly). Is there such functionality in
Lilo? I've never used Lilo, unfortunately. Seems to me that sneakernet
(taking your floppy to some other machine with a floppy drive) will be
your only option in the end...

--
Regards,

Klistvud
Certifiable Loonix User #481801


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[Tim Tebbit]

AG wrote:

> Only the three options noted - CD, floppy and HD.  The BIOS does not
> (appear to) support PXE ... at least that is not given as an option anyway.


Sounds like you are left with physically removing the hdd. Of course you
could try to /wish/ the OS to appear. :)

You had mentioned the screws were threaded. I think you meant to say
stripped. If that is the case you can simply use screw extractor. They
come in various sizes. Basically a somewhat blunt drill bit with the
biting edge oriented for counter clockwise application. Depending on the
head of the screw's size it might be beneficial to start a pilot.
However, I doubt there is rust/corrosion involved and more than likely
the bit biting on the current tool marks would probably do the deed.

Another trick you might want to try.. Invert a can of compressed air
typically used for cleaning keyboards and such. Spray each screw head
directly in several small bursts with the objective of chilling them as
much as possible. If the small straw that comes with most is still
around, it would greatly help. Take special care as the plastic encasing
the screws may become brittle. Then try using a decent knife point as a
screwdriver.

YMMV.

Good luck.



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[AG-21]

Tim Tebbit wrote:

AG wrote:

  

Only the three options noted - CD, floppy and HD.  The BIOS does not
(appear to) support PXE ... at least that is not given as an option anyway.
    

Sounds like you are left with physically removing the hdd. Of course you
could try to /wish/ the OS to appear. :)

You had mentioned the screws were threaded. I think you meant to say
stripped. If that is the case you can simply use screw extractor. They
come in various sizes. Basically a somewhat blunt drill bit with the
biting edge oriented for counter clockwise application. Depending on the
head of the screw's size it might be beneficial to start a pilot.
However, I doubt there is rust/corrosion involved and more than likely
the bit biting on the current tool marks would probably do the deed.

Another trick you might want to try.. Invert a can of compressed air
typically used for cleaning keyboards and such. Spray each screw head
directly in several small bursts with the objective of chilling them as
much as possible. If the small straw that comes with most is still
around, it would greatly help. Take special care as the plastic encasing
the screws may become brittle. Then try using a decent knife point as a
screwdriver.

YMMV.

Good luck.



  

Cheers for the suggestions.  I may well be up the proverbial creek with this one.  Thanks for the tips re removing the screws - I'll give that a shot.

Coincidentally - and a long shot - I found an old set of Win3.1 installation floppies whilst looking around for something I could use as a bootstrap boot disk.  If I were to install Win3.1 (assuming that goes okay!), is there a way of then installing Debian given all of the constraints listed previously?

[Tim Tebbit]

AG wrote:

> Cheers for the suggestions.  I may well be up the proverbial creek with
> this one.  Thanks for the tips re removing the screws - I'll give that a
> shot.
>
> Coincidentally - and a long shot - I found an old set of Win3.1
> installation floppies whilst looking around for something I could use as
> a bootstrap boot disk.  If I were to install Win3.1 (assuming that goes
> okay!), is there a way of then installing Debian given all of the
> constraints listed previously?
>

You bet. http://goodbye-microsoft.com/


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[jagginess]

Tim Tebbit wrote:

> AG wrote:
>
>> Cheers for the suggestions.  I may well be up the proverbial creek with
>> this one.  Thanks for the tips re removing the screws - I'll give that a
>> shot.
>>
>> Coincidentally - and a long shot - I found an old set of Win3.1
>> installation floppies whilst looking around for something I could use as
>> a bootstrap boot disk.  If I were to install Win3.1 (assuming that goes
>> okay!), is there a way of then installing Debian given all of the
>> constraints listed previously?
>>
>
> You bet. http://goodbye-microsoft.com/
>
>

Would that work? win3.1 is 16 bit(there's an add-on for win3.1 for
supporting 32bit exes..) .. debian.exe is a good bet but it might not
have a 16bit routine.. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win32s , is
installable on win3.1 )

with debian.exe, once you get into the system, you can even choose the
manual guided partition section and ask to resize the current fat16
partition..

to save time, you can also try checking out linux rescue disks from
sites like http://www.bootdisk.com/  (there's rawdisk.exe which can
write disk images to floppy).

i'm assuming you would be able to use at least iexplorer 3 or something
with win 3.1.. it sure is a challenge but definitely possible ;)
(it's likely you might have to copy win32s and iexplorer on diskettes
somewhere)

the least hassle, if you're willing to pull a few gut cells then you can
look into using a netboot disk.. there are netboot disk makers online..
in which u just have to enter your netcard make.. then copy that image
to a floppy disk-> (tools like winimage, winhex, and rawdisk can do this)

  since the linux rescue setup resides inside a remote server
'image'..for eg: the tftp server ,  you don't have to change anything on
the netboot disk.. any changes thereafter would be done on the tftp
server..

  http://wiki.debian.org/Tftp :)

jamesb


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[Kevin Ross-4]

> From: jamesb [mailto:jagginess@...]
> Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 3:18 PM
>
> i'm assuming you would be able to use at least iexplorer 3 or
> something
> with win 3.1.. it sure is a challenge but definitely possible ;)
> (it's likely you might have to copy win32s and iexplorer on diskettes
> somewhere)

If memory serves, Windows 3.1 didn't include any TCP/IP stack, and certainly
didn't include any version of Internet Explorer (there were 3rd party TCP/IP
stacks).  Windows for Workgroups 3.11 was the first 16-bit Windows to
include a TCP/IP stack.  I don't remember what, if any, web browser it came
with.


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[AG-21]

Kevin Ross wrote:

From: jamesb [jagginess@...] 
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 3:18 PM

i'm assuming you would be able to use at least iexplorer 3 or 
something 
with win 3.1.. it sure is a challenge but definitely possible ;)
(it's likely you might have to copy win32s and iexplorer on diskettes 
somewhere)
    

If memory serves, Windows 3.1 didn't include any TCP/IP stack, and certainly
didn't include any version of Internet Explorer (there were 3rd party TCP/IP
stacks).  Windows for Workgroups 3.11 was the first 16-bit Windows to
include a TCP/IP stack.  I don't remember what, if any, web browser it came
with.


  

Thanks again for all the further help/ suggestions.  As it turns out, the Win3.1 disks are not bootable, so that idea is stillborn.

I have rummaged around and found a few old floppies from the days when it would run Slackware (i.e. before I hosed it today!).  These result in a kernel panic because of the conflict between the kernel installed with today's Debian attempt and the image that the boot is expecting.

On one disk I found something that booted into the grub prompt.  I did some reading up on grub and some basic commands.  I didn't get very far - it reports back that there is an ext2fs loaded on /dev/hda1 which I'm assuming was root, although I am sure that when I partitioned the drive today I selected ext3.  The boot loader installed today was lilo, because I changed the lilo.conf file to point to the new vmlinuz and initrd.gz files, so that is what is being used.  I don't know if grub can use/ by-pass lilo?  If it can then should I boot off of the hard drive on which the latest netinstal testing iso is installed (I think) successfully or from the USB drive onto which I copied it earlier?

I took the back completely off this evening and although the CD drive now spins when a CD is inserted (there's progress), it doesn't seem to boot from any CD that is inserted at power up.  I am unable at present to trouble shoot whether or not that is the fault of the drive itself.  However, I cannot locate the HD, and suspect that it is under a thin aluminium frame which will involve dismantling the entire casing.  Under the key pad I can see the IDE ribbon and connector so can locate the HD - I just don't see a viable way of accessing it.

The laptop is a rebranded Mitac 7321 which is well described at http://bongolia.org/linux/mitac7321.php .

[Alex Samad]

On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 09:40:12AM +0000, AG wrote:
> Kevin Ross wrote:
[snip]

>
> I took the back completely off this evening and although the CD
> drive now spins when a CD is inserted (there's progress), it doesn't

if its an ide interface, why not plug it into another hd instead of a
cdrom !

> seem to boot from any CD that is inserted at power up.  I am unable
> at present to trouble shoot whether or not that is the fault of the
> drive itself.  However, I cannot locate the HD, and suspect that it
> is under a thin aluminium frame which will involve dismantling the
> entire casing.  Under the key pad I can see the IDE ribbon and
> connector so can locate the HD - I just don't see a viable way of
> accessing it.
>
> The laptop is a rebranded Mitac 7321 which is well described at
> http://bongolia.org/linux/mitac7321.php .

--
"I wish you would have given me this written question ahead of time, so I could plan for it. (Laughter.) John, I'm sure historians will look back and say, gosh, he could have done it better this way, or that way. You know, I just -- I'm sure something will pop into my head here in the midst of this press conference, with all the pressure of trying to come up with an answer, but it hadn't yet."

        - George W. Bush
04/03/2004
Washington, DC
after being asked to name the biggest mistake he had made

[AG-21]

Alex Samad wrote:

On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 09:40:12AM +0000, AG wrote:
  

Kevin Ross wrote:
    

[snip]

  

I took the back completely off this evening and although the CD
drive now spins when a CD is inserted (there's progress), it doesn't
    

if its an ide interface, why not plug it into another hd instead of a
cdrom !


<snip>

Because the setting is not compatible with any housing/ receptor I've ever seen before.  It looks similar to an eSATA connection, but smaller.  I am assuming that it is non-standard, but to be fair haven't taken that many laptops apart to say for sure.

I'm thinking that the way forward would be via the GRUB prompt I was able to get off of an old floppy, but to do so would mean being able to by-pass LILO and boot into the first partition on the HD (/), and then go into LILO.conf and change it to accommodate the larger kernel or dispense with LILO in favour of GRUB.

[Stan Hoeppner]

AG put forth on 10/31/2009 12:49 PM:
> (3) The laptop's BIOS is too old to allow booting from a USB (only
> allows HD, CD or floppy).  It requires something to boot first before it
> can mount additional files such a USB stick.

AG put forth on 10/31/2009 10:41 AM:
> Then I copied a netinst *.iso image onto a USB stick and
> booted.

These two statements are contradictory.  If one is true, the other must
be false.  If you were able to boot the Debian installer once, you
should be able to boot from that device again, no?

What device did you boot from when you ran the Debian installer the
first time?

--
Stan


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[AG-21]

Stan Hoeppner wrote:

AG put forth on 10/31/2009 12:49 PM:
  

(3) The laptop's BIOS is too old to allow booting from a USB (only
allows HD, CD or floppy).  It requires something to boot first before it
can mount additional files such a USB stick.
    

AG put forth on 10/31/2009 10:41 AM:
  

Then I copied a netinst *.iso image onto a USB stick and
booted.
    

These two statements are contradictory.  If one is true, the other must
be false.  If you were able to boot the Debian installer once, you
should be able to boot from that device again, no?

What device did you boot from when you ran the Debian installer the
first time?

--
Stan


  

Could be my lack of clarity in writing and precision in terminology :-)

I was installing Deb testing over a previously installed Slackware system due to a number of hardware restrictions.  First I downloaded a new version of vmlinuz and initrd.gz and moved those into a directory called /boot/newinstall.  I then changed lilo.conf to point to /boot/newinstall (I backed up the original lilo.conf first).  I had the USB stick with an *.iso loaded from Debian and rebooted the laptop, which booted into the new installation.  The installation programme kindly scanned all of the drives, located the *.iso and loaded it.  The installation process was without issue, I allowed the installation to tasksel and once the packages started being downloaded, I left to do other things.  When I returned the installation process was at the tasksel screen again, and I had to abort the installation. 

Now the machine won't boot, and I cannot get into lilo.conf to edit it.  A new kernel has been installed and lilo is still the default boot loader.  I don't have any floppy drive onto which I can load a new install programme to boot from the laptop's floppy drive; the CD is kaput - spins but no-one's home; and the third boot option in the BIOS is the hard drive, which is as good as inaccessible.  I have no way of checking just what's on there and I can't get at it remotely.

[Jesús M. Navarro-2]

Hi again, AG:

On Saturday 31 October 2009 19:41:16 AG wrote:

> Jesús M. Navarro wrote:
> > Hi, AG:
> >
> > On Saturday 31 October 2009 18:49:14 AG wrote:
> >> Tim Tebbit wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> (3) The laptop's BIOS is too old to allow booting from a USB (only
> >> allows HD, CD or floppy).  It requires something to boot first before it
> >> can mount additional files such a USB stick.
> >
> > Does it support booting from network (PXE?)? What other boot up methods
> > are supported? (leaving appart floppy and hard disk).
>
> Only the three options noted - CD, floppy and HD.  The BIOS does not
> (appear to) support PXE ... at least that is not given as an option anyway.

I'd say you are closed to these options:
 * Find an external USB-based CD or HD drive.
 * Find the way to open the case to extract the internal HD.
 * Find a different computer with a floppy disk drive.
Lacking any of these (you migth buy them, rent them or find a friend who lend
them) you don't own a laptop but a brick.


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[Tim Tebbit]

AG wrote:

> Could be my lack of clarity in writing and precision in terminology :-)
>
> I was installing Deb testing over a previously installed Slackware
> system due to a number of hardware restrictions.  First I downloaded a
> new version of vmlinuz and initrd.gz and moved those into a directory
> called /boot/newinstall.  I then changed lilo.conf to point to
> /boot/newinstall (I backed up the original lilo.conf first).  I had the
> USB stick with an *.iso loaded from Debian and rebooted the laptop,
> which booted into the new installation.  The installation programme
> kindly scanned all of the drives, located the *.iso and loaded it.  The
> installation process was without issue, I allowed the installation to
> tasksel and once the packages started being downloaded, I left to do
> other things.  When I returned the installation process was at the
> tasksel screen again, and I had to abort the installation.
>
> Now the machine won't boot, and I cannot get into lilo.conf to edit it.
> A new kernel has been installed and lilo is still the default boot
> loader.  I don't have any floppy drive onto which I can load a new
> install programme to boot from the laptop's floppy drive; the CD is
> kaput - spins but no-one's home; and the third boot option in the BIOS
> is the hard drive, which is as good as inaccessible.  I have no way of
> checking just what's on there and I can't get at it remotely.

I think this is where you went wrong. I personally would have choose to
a debootstrap install from within slackware. There are number of ways to
come up with a partition.. ie using swap, resizing something etc. Also
going this route you could have continued with a dual boot setup until
you were sure Debian was up and running properly. If space only
permitted a standard bare bones system, you'd have access to the core
utilities to manipulate things. But we're past that now. :)

Perhaps the local library would have old enough machines to write
floppies? Is there a LUG nearby that could write floppies for you?


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