A new

[Jenny-29]

Hi all,

In this Google Summer of Code season, a new detail refinement brush was done.
This page is a demo: http://sites.google.com/site/gsoc2009/result-demo

There might still be some bug. I'd love to get any feedback from you.


Regards,
Jenny
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[Martin Nordholts-2]

On 09/15/2009 03:50 AM, Jenny wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> In this Google Summer of Code season, a new detail refinement brush was done.
> This page is a demo: http://sites.google.com/site/gsoc2009/result-demo
>
> There might still be some bug. I'd love to get any feedback from you.

Hi Jenny,

Thanks for making that page. Would it be possible to also get a sample how the
new SIOX performs for green screens? A zoom in at the edge of the extracted
object to show how it handles alpha would also be interesting.

These are the kind of pictures I mean:
http://images.google.com/images?q=green+screen

BR,
Martin

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http://www.chromecode.com/

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[Gerald Friedland]

Hi Martin,

Conceptually, these pictures should work very well with SIOX -- also
with the version that is already productively included in GIMP. Of
course, individual cases might sometimes be more tricky.
What Jenny added is the capability of a soft segmentation. This means
segmenting regions where background and foreground might fall into the
same pixel because of texture complexity or blurring of the picture.

Gerald

--
Dr. Gerald Friedland
International Computer Science Institute
1947 Center Street, Suite 600
CA-94704 Berkeley, USA
http://www.gerald-friedland.org
--



On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Martin Nordholts <enselic@...> wrote:

> On 09/15/2009 03:50 AM, Jenny wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> In this Google Summer of Code season, a new detail refinement brush was done.
>> This page is a demo: http://sites.google.com/site/gsoc2009/result-demo
>>
>> There might still be some bug. I'd love to get any feedback from you.
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> Thanks for making that page. Would it be possible to also get a sample how the
> new SIOX performs for green screens? A zoom in at the edge of the extracted
> object to show how it handles alpha would also be interesting.
>
> These are the kind of pictures I mean:
> http://images.google.com/images?q=green+screen
>
> BR,
> Martin
>
> --
>
> My GIMP Blog:
> http://www.chromecode.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> Gimp-developer@...
> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>

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[SorinN]

Well, every background extraction is tricky - I tried PhotoshopCS 4
tools - they seems to be trivial to use and seem to be easy - but for
a complex task which need a lot of pixel precision you have to do a
lot of manually corrections too so the final feelig is a kind of
frustration - (with gimp magic wand progresive selection feature [drag
over layer left / right], I can do the same thing quicker).

In comparison with Photoshop - Jenny demos look perfect especially the
tree. I hope the final tool will extract selection / selected colors
direct (not just select pixels).

2009/9/15 Gerald Friedland <fractor@...>:

> Hi Martin,
>
> Conceptually, these pictures should work very well with SIOX -- also
> with the version that is already productively included in GIMP. Of
> course, individual cases might sometimes be more tricky.
> What Jenny added is the capability of a soft segmentation. This means
> segmenting regions where background and foreground might fall into the
> same pixel because of texture complexity or blurring of the picture.
>
> Gerald
>
> --
> Dr. Gerald Friedland
> International Computer Science Institute
> 1947 Center Street, Suite 600
> CA-94704 Berkeley, USA
> http://www.gerald-friedland.org
> --
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Martin Nordholts <enselic@...> wrote:
>> On 09/15/2009 03:50 AM, Jenny wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> In this Google Summer of Code season, a new detail refinement brush was done.
>>> This page is a demo: http://sites.google.com/site/gsoc2009/result-demo
>>>
>>> There might still be some bug. I'd love to get any feedback from you.
>>
>> Hi Jenny,
>>
>> Thanks for making that page. Would it be possible to also get a sample how the
>> new SIOX performs for green screens? A zoom in at the edge of the extracted
>> object to show how it handles alpha would also be interesting.
>>
>> These are the kind of pictures I mean:
>> http://images.google.com/images?q=green+screen
>>
>> BR,
>> Martin
>>
>> --
>>
>> My GIMP Blog:
>> http://www.chromecode.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>> Gimp-developer@...
>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> Gimp-developer@...
> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>

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[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 2:34 AM, SorinN wrote:
> Well, every background extraction is tricky - I tried PhotoshopCS 4
> tools - they seems to be trivial to use and seem to be easy - but for
> a complex task which need a lot of pixel precision you have to do a
> lot of manually corrections too so the final feelig is a kind of
> frustration - (with gimp magic wand progresive selection feature [drag
> over layer left / right], I can do the same thing quicker).

Are you talking about
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Photoshop/11.0/WSFD9BA8C5-31BA-4fec-81F3-CF04EE5295FCa.html
?

Alexandre
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[Gerald Friedland]

Hi Alex,

Background extraction IS indeed tricky.

First, different pictures require different tools. Everything where
the foreground color is essentially one color, such as drawings will
work best with a tool like Magic Wand. The foreground extraction Jenny
was improving is intended to be used on photographs and works best
when the fotograph features a clearly distinctive foreground but the
foreground can easily contain millions of colors and as of now, the
foreground can also have very fine structure. There is virtually no
tool that can deal with transparencies, reflections, and other nasty
stuff. When extracting objects with these issues you have to be lucky.

Second, the way to think of these semi-automatic extraction tools is
to compare them with a dish washer. Very often, the dish washer will
do a good job and clean your dishes. So it'll save you work and it'll
be cleaner than if you'd done it manually in the same time. However,
for some pieces, the dish washer just doesn't work. Often these are
the pieces that are particularly difficult, sometimes though you ask
yourself: Why is this glass still dirty -- it's like all the other
glasses? So there are people who do not want a dish washer because
they want to be in absolute control of the cleaning process. However,
would you stop producing, selling, using, and improving dish washers
in general, just because they don't work always? The answer is of
course: No because in sum they are useful.
Same with automatic foreground extraction methods: For some images
they save a lot of work, for others they might cause trouble. Some
people will never use the tools because they want to be in complete
control of the segmentation process. In sum they are useful though.

Gerald

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
<alexandre.prokoudine@...> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 2:34 AM, SorinN wrote:
>> Well, every background extraction is tricky - I tried PhotoshopCS 4
>> tools - they seems to be trivial to use and seem to be easy - but for
>> a complex task which need a lot of pixel precision you have to do a
>> lot of manually corrections too so the final feelig is a kind of
>> frustration - (with gimp magic wand progresive selection feature [drag
>> over layer left / right], I can do the same thing quicker).
>
> Are you talking about
> http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Photoshop/11.0/WSFD9BA8C5-31BA-4fec-81F3-CF04EE5295FCa.html
> ?
>
> Alexandre
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> Gimp-developer@...
> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>

--
Dr. Gerald Friedland
International Computer Science Institute
1947 Center Street, Suite 600
CA-94704 Berkeley, USA
http://www.gerald-friedland.org
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[SorinN]

But probably - if we can try to identify some generic use cases and
then to identify a sum of possible techniques / technologies to solve
those different cases, we can put a base for a future meta tool.

GIMP has already some useful tools such as color to alpha, and color
erase (for brushes), also Gmic has color replace. Maybe if we can have
the posibility to  pick (with a picker) which color is important to
remain and then to pick which color (or range of colors) can go to
aplha (probably with a color tolerance control [based on luminance, or
other factors]), we can have a better precision for this (meta)tool,
and saving a lot of time.

This can go well in SIOUX tool. The same tool as is now but with some
[+] color and [-] color  selectors / pickers - which will manually
refine the alghorithm after the initial selection is done (as is now
in SIOUX). When the color selection manually refined is ready, our
SIOUX based tool will know much better (if not exactly) about our
intention, about which color is important and which is not.


2009/9/19 Gerald Friedland <fractor@...>:

> Hi Alex,
>
> Background extraction IS indeed tricky.
>
> First, different pictures require different tools. Everything where
> the foreground color is essentially one color, such as drawings will
> work best with a tool like Magic Wand. The foreground extraction Jenny
> was improving is intended to be used on photographs and works best
> when the fotograph features a clearly distinctive foreground but the
> foreground can easily contain millions of colors and as of now, the
> foreground can also have very fine structure. There is virtually no
> tool that can deal with transparencies, reflections, and other nasty
> stuff. When extracting objects with these issues you have to be lucky.
>
> Second, the way to think of these semi-automatic extraction tools is
> to compare them with a dish washer. Very often, the dish washer will
> do a good job and clean your dishes. So it'll save you work and it'll
> be cleaner than if you'd done it manually in the same time. However,
> for some pieces, the dish washer just doesn't work. Often these are
> the pieces that are particularly difficult, sometimes though you ask
> yourself: Why is this glass still dirty -- it's like all the other
> glasses? So there are people who do not want a dish washer because
> they want to be in absolute control of the cleaning process. However,
> would you stop producing, selling, using, and improving dish washers
> in general, just because they don't work always? The answer is of
> course: No because in sum they are useful.
> Same with automatic foreground extraction methods: For some images
> they save a lot of work, for others they might cause trouble. Some
> people will never use the tools because they want to be in complete
> control of the segmentation process. In sum they are useful though.
>
> Gerald
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
> <alexandre.prokoudine@...> wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 2:34 AM, SorinN wrote:
>>> Well, every background extraction is tricky - I tried PhotoshopCS 4
>>> tools - they seems to be trivial to use and seem to be easy - but for
>>> a complex task which need a lot of pixel precision you have to do a
>>> lot of manually corrections too so the final feelig is a kind of
>>> frustration - (with gimp magic wand progresive selection feature [drag
>>> over layer left / right], I can do the same thing quicker).
>>
>> Are you talking about
>> http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Photoshop/11.0/WSFD9BA8C5-31BA-4fec-81F3-CF04EE5295FCa.html
>> ?
>>
>> Alexandre
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>> Gimp-developer@...
>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>
>
> --
> Dr. Gerald Friedland
> International Computer Science Institute
> 1947 Center Street, Suite 600
> CA-94704 Berkeley, USA
> http://www.gerald-friedland.org
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> Gimp-developer@...
> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>

--
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[Gerald Friedland]

Hi,

That's a great idea. The idea would be to have only on foreground
selection tool and make it automatically determine whether to use
Magic Wand or SIOX (btw.: not spelled like the native American tribe).
This shouldn't be very hard since Magic Wand's user interaction is a
subset of SIOX user interface. The determination whether to use one or
the other could depend on the amount of colors that are found in the
user-defined foreground sample. There might be a radio-button to
override the automatic choice.

Any volunteer? Maybe it's for Google Summer of Code 2010...

Gerald


On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 5:02 PM, SorinN <nemes.sorin@...> wrote:

> But probably - if we can try to identify some generic use cases and
> then to identify a sum of possible techniques / technologies to solve
> those different cases, we can put a base for a future meta tool.
>
> GIMP has already some useful tools such as color to alpha, and color
> erase (for brushes), also Gmic has color replace. Maybe if we can have
> the posibility to  pick (with a picker) which color is important to
> remain and then to pick which color (or range of colors) can go to
> aplha (probably with a color tolerance control [based on luminance, or
> other factors]), we can have a better precision for this (meta)tool,
> and saving a lot of time.
>
> This can go well in SIOUX tool. The same tool as is now but with some
> [+] color and [-] color  selectors / pickers - which will manually
> refine the alghorithm after the initial selection is done (as is now
> in SIOUX). When the color selection manually refined is ready, our
> SIOUX based tool will know much better (if not exactly) about our
> intention, about which color is important and which is not.
>
>
> 2009/9/19 Gerald Friedland <fractor@...>:
>> Hi Alex,
>>
>> Background extraction IS indeed tricky.
>>
>> First, different pictures require different tools. Everything where
>> the foreground color is essentially one color, such as drawings will
>> work best with a tool like Magic Wand. The foreground extraction Jenny
>> was improving is intended to be used on photographs and works best
>> when the fotograph features a clearly distinctive foreground but the
>> foreground can easily contain millions of colors and as of now, the
>> foreground can also have very fine structure. There is virtually no
>> tool that can deal with transparencies, reflections, and other nasty
>> stuff. When extracting objects with these issues you have to be lucky.
>>
>> Second, the way to think of these semi-automatic extraction tools is
>> to compare them with a dish washer. Very often, the dish washer will
>> do a good job and clean your dishes. So it'll save you work and it'll
>> be cleaner than if you'd done it manually in the same time. However,
>> for some pieces, the dish washer just doesn't work. Often these are
>> the pieces that are particularly difficult, sometimes though you ask
>> yourself: Why is this glass still dirty -- it's like all the other
>> glasses? So there are people who do not want a dish washer because
>> they want to be in absolute control of the cleaning process. However,
>> would you stop producing, selling, using, and improving dish washers
>> in general, just because they don't work always? The answer is of
>> course: No because in sum they are useful.
>> Same with automatic foreground extraction methods: For some images
>> they save a lot of work, for others they might cause trouble. Some
>> people will never use the tools because they want to be in complete
>> control of the segmentation process. In sum they are useful though.
>>
>> Gerald
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
>> <alexandre.prokoudine@...> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 2:34 AM, SorinN wrote:
>>>> Well, every background extraction is tricky - I tried PhotoshopCS 4
>>>> tools - they seems to be trivial to use and seem to be easy - but for
>>>> a complex task which need a lot of pixel precision you have to do a
>>>> lot of manually corrections too so the final feelig is a kind of
>>>> frustration - (with gimp magic wand progresive selection feature [drag
>>>> over layer left / right], I can do the same thing quicker).
>>>
>>> Are you talking about
>>> http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Photoshop/11.0/WSFD9BA8C5-31BA-4fec-81F3-CF04EE5295FCa.html
>>> ?
>>>
>>> Alexandre
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>>> Gimp-developer@...
>>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Gerald Friedland
>> International Computer Science Institute
>> 1947 Center Street, Suite 600
>> CA-94704 Berkeley, USA
>> http://www.gerald-friedland.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gimp-developer mailing list
>> Gimp-developer@...
>> https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nemes Ioan Sorin
>

--
Dr. Gerald Friedland
International Computer Science Institute
1947 Center Street, Suite 600
CA-94704 Berkeley, USA
http://www.gerald-friedland.org
--
Sent from Berkeley, CA, United States
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[peter sikking]

Gerald Friedland wrote:

> That's a great idea. The idea would be to have only on foreground
> selection tool and make it automatically determine whether to use
> Magic Wand or SIOX

I have been saying this for a while:

every time I look at the 4 'content' selection tools (wand, scissors,  
SIOX
and by-color) I think: that should just be one tool with some options,  
or
even a mixer to get the balance of results of different algo's.

it seems that there is a ramp-up in sophistication in
the wand -> by-color -> SIOX order. scissors seems to be and handle
quite different. but after discussing its usefulness today, we can
add those 'different' components to the mix.

     --ps

         founder + principal interaction architect
             man + machine interface works

         http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture



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[Martin Nordholts-2]

On 09/19/2009 03:17 PM, peter sikking wrote:

> Gerald Friedland wrote:
>
>> That's a great idea. The idea would be to have only on foreground
>> selection tool and make it automatically determine whether to use
>> Magic Wand or SIOX
>
> I have been saying this for a while:
>
> every time I look at the 4 'content' selection tools (wand, scissors,  
> SIOX
> and by-color) I think: that should just be one tool with some options,  
> or
> even a mixer to get the balance of results of different algo's.

But SIOX is supposed to be more than a selection tool, isn't it? Isn't
it about extracting foreground objects? A selection is not enough for that
when the foreground consists of transparent pixels.

 / Martin

--

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[Sven Neumann]

On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 15:38 +0200, Martin Nordholts wrote:

> But SIOX is supposed to be more than a selection tool, isn't it? Isn't
> it about extracting foreground objects? A selection is not enough for that
> when the foreground consists of transparent pixels.

SIOX is a tool to create a selection, nothing more. I don't see what a
foreground extraction tool should do besides selecting the foreground.
Perhaps you can explain this?


Sven


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[Martin Nordholts-2]

On 09/19/2009 08:20 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-09-19 at 15:38 +0200, Martin Nordholts wrote:
>
>> But SIOX is supposed to be more than a selection tool, isn't it? Isn't
>> it about extracting foreground objects? A selection is not enough for that
>> when the foreground consists of transparent pixels.
>
> SIOX is a tool to create a selection, nothing more. I don't see what a
> foreground extraction tool should do besides selecting the foreground.
> Perhaps you can explain this?

Consider a completely red background with a slightly blurred green filled
circle in the foreground [1]. If you want to extract the green foreground
object you need to get rid of the red in the pixels with both red and
green, but you can't do that with only a selection.

A good foreground selection tool would need to get rid of the red in the
pixels with both red and green and only leave slightly transparent green
pixels.

 / Martin

[1] http://www.chromecode.com/temp/red-circle-on-green-background.png


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[Gerald Friedland]

Hi,

>>> But SIOX is supposed to be more than a selection tool, isn't it? Isn't
>>> it about extracting foreground objects? A selection is not enough for that
>>> when the foreground consists of transparent pixels.
>>
>> SIOX is a tool to create a selection, nothing more. I don't see what a
>> foreground extraction tool should do besides selecting the foreground.
>> Perhaps you can explain this?
>
> Consider a completely red background with a slightly blurred green filled
> circle in the foreground [1]. If you want to extract the green foreground
> object you need to get rid of the red in the pixels with both red and
> green, but you can't do that with only a selection.
>
> A good foreground selection tool would need to get rid of the red in the
> pixels with both red and green and only leave slightly transparent green
> pixels.

Absolutely. And this is exactly what Jenny has implemented as part of
the Google Summer of Code.
(So until now SIOX was 'only a selection tool' but now it's not
anymore -- at least once Jenny's code
makes it's way into the main branch)

Gerald

--
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International Computer Science Institute
1947 Center Street, Suite 600
CA-94704 Berkeley, USA
http://www.gerald-friedland.org
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[Martin Nordholts-2]

On 09/20/2009 08:19 AM, Gerald Friedland wrote:
>> A good foreground selection tool would need to get rid of the red in the
>> pixels with both red and green and only leave slightly transparent green
>> pixels.
>
> Absolutely. And this is exactly what Jenny has implemented as part of
> the Google Summer of Code.
> (So until now SIOX was 'only a selection tool' but now it's not
> anymore -- at least once Jenny's code
> makes it's way into the main branch)

Ok cool.

Speaking of integrating into git master, who will do that? There is a need
to cleanup the branch and introduce proper commit messages. If we could
get help with that it would be great.

BR,
Martin

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[Gerald Friedland]

Hi

>>> A good foreground selection tool would need to get rid of the red in the
>>> pixels with both red and green and only leave slightly transparent green
>>> pixels.
>>
>> Absolutely. And this is exactly what Jenny has implemented as part of
>> the Google Summer of Code.
>> (So until now SIOX was 'only a selection tool' but now it's not
>> anymore -- at least once Jenny's code
>> makes it's way into the main branch)
>
> Ok cool.
>
> Speaking of integrating into git master, who will do that? There is a need
> to cleanup the branch and introduce proper commit messages. If we could
> get help with that it would be great.

I think the integration should be a collaborative effort between Jenny
and somebody who actually knows the GIMP code very well and has commit
privileges on the main tree. I am happy to help conceptually, meaning
on advising how the output should look like and what is possible and
what might not be possible for further extensions.

Gerald

--
Dr. Gerald Friedland
International Computer Science Institute
1947 Center Street, Suite 600
CA-94704 Berkeley, USA
http://www.gerald-friedland.org
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