A specific example of a disk i/o problem (was: FreeBSD vs Ubuntu)

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Parent Message unknown A specific example of a disk i/o problem (was: FreeBSD vs Ubuntu)

by dieter-7 :: Rate this Message:

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> > My question is why is FreeBSD's disk i/o performance so bad?
>
> As I mentioned... this was discussed actively in slashdot. You will  find
> there many good comments on this.

All I saw in slashdot was a ffs vs ext comment.  I don't believe the problems
I'm seeing are filesystem related.

> > Not just in the benchmarks with debugging on, but in real world usage
> > where it actually matters.
>
> Are you saying this from actual experience or from reading other people's
> comments?

Here is a specific demo of one disk i/o problem I'm seeing.  Should be
easy to reproduce?

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-performance/2008-July/003533.html

This was over a year ago, so add 7.1 to the list of versions with the problem.
I believe that the
swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: bufobj: 0, blkno: 1148109, size: 4096
messages I'm getting are the same problem.  A user process is hogging
the bottleneck (disk buffer cache?) and the swapper/pager is getting starved.

I frequently see problems where disk i/o on one disk starves a process that
needs disk i/o on a different disk on a different controller, which is why
I suspect the disk buffer cache as the bottleneck.

> If it is from actual experience and XYZ version of Linux does a
> particular job better then I don't see why you should not consider using
> what works best.

I was stuck running Linux on one machine for awhile and it scrambled my data.
No thank you.  Data integrity is essential.  Thankfully I have been penguin
free for awhile now.
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Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem (was: FreeBSD vs Ubuntu)

by Attilio Rao-2 :: Rate this Message:

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2009/9/30 Dieter <freebsd@...>:

>> > My question is why is FreeBSD's disk i/o performance so bad?
>>
>> As I mentioned... this was discussed actively in slashdot. You will  find
>> there many good comments on this.
>
> All I saw in slashdot was a ffs vs ext comment.  I don't believe the problems
> I'm seeing are filesystem related.
>
>> > Not just in the benchmarks with debugging on, but in real world usage
>> > where it actually matters.
>>
>> Are you saying this from actual experience or from reading other people's
>> comments?
>
> Here is a specific demo of one disk i/o problem I'm seeing.  Should be
> easy to reproduce?
>
> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-performance/2008-July/003533.html
>
> This was over a year ago, so add 7.1 to the list of versions with the problem.
> I believe that the
> swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: bufobj: 0, blkno: 1148109, size: 4096
> messages I'm getting are the same problem.  A user process is hogging
> the bottleneck (disk buffer cache?) and the swapper/pager is getting starved.

Sorry, do you have a PR/describing e-mail with this issue? Can you be
a bit more precise?

The problem reported in the earlier post, however, is interesting and
worths more analysis.
More speficially, would you be interested in reproducing and playing a
bit with some diagnostic tool/configurations I can point you at?

Attilio


--
Peace can only be achieved by understanding - A. Einstein
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Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by dieter-7 :: Rate this Message:

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> >> > My question is why is FreeBSD's disk i/o performance so bad?

> > Here is a specific demo of one disk i/o problem I'm seeing.  Should be
> > easy to reproduce?
> >
> > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-performance/2008-July/003533.html
> >
> > This was over a year ago, so add 7.1 to the list of versions with the problem.
> > I believe that the
> > swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: bufobj: 0, blkno: 1148109, size: 4096
> > messages I'm getting are the same problem.  A user process is hogging
> > the bottleneck (disk buffer cache?) and the swapper/pager is getting starved.
>
> Sorry, do you have a PR/describing e-mail with this issue? Can you be
> a bit more precise?

I have not submitted a PR for this particular problem. (yet)

The hardware seems to work fine.  A single process can access a disk at
full speed, over 100 MB/s for recent 7200 rpm SATA drives.  Same for
the nforce4-ultra (chipset), JMB363 (PCIe card), or SiI 3132 (PCIe card)
controllers.  Same for Hitachi, Seagate, Samsung, or WD drives.

CPU bound processes play well together.  The problem is when I run
a disk i/o bound process like cat, dd, etc.  The i/o bound process
sucks up some resource and other processes get starved for disk i/o
not just for milliseconds, but for seconds, even minutes.  The example
in .../2008-July/003533.html uses a single disk, but the problem
also occurs across disks and across controllers.  Coming up with
a demo using multiple disks that would be easy for someone else
to duplicate is more difficult, which is why the demo uses a single
disk.  It happens with both reading and writing.  I don't think
it has anything to do with the filesystem (FFS with softdeps).
It doesn't matter which process starts first.  Given the behaviour,
the bottleneck must be something that is common to all the disks,
such as the disk cache.

The BSD kernel has changed significantly since I took the internals
class, so my understanding of the internals is somewhat obsolete.
But my best guess is that the bottleneck is some kernel disk cache
or disk job queue that the i/o bound job fills up and keeps filled
up, and other processes rarely get a chance to get their i/o requests
in.

Nice, even idprio, has little if any effect.  On the machines that Unix
grew up on (PDP11, VAX) the CPU was nearly always the scarce resource,
so the scheduler doesn't penalize a process for using lots of i/o.
This is a serious problem on current hardware.  There is no way
to keep one process's i/o from interferring with another process.

> The problem reported in the earlier post, however, is interesting and
> worths more analysis.

Can anyone reproduce it?

> More speficially, would you be interested in reproducing and playing a
> bit with some diagnostic tool/configurations I can point you at?

I would welcome info on diagnosing/config/tuning/etc.
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Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by Bill Moran-2 :: Rate this Message:

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In response to Dieter <freebsd@...>:

> > >> > My question is why is FreeBSD's disk i/o performance so bad?
>
> > > Here is a specific demo of one disk i/o problem I'm seeing.  Should be
> > > easy to reproduce?
> > >
> > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-performance/2008-July/003533.html

FYI, I thought I'd play around with this some in an attempt to add some
useful information to the investigation.

I can not reproduce the problem at all.  I created a 9G file, did the cat
as described in the above URL, and the man request completed in roughly
the same time it did without the cat running.

Just to mix it up a bit, I tried running ls -R on a large directory tree
while the cat was running as well, and performance did not seem to be
significantly impacted there, either.

I ran the tests on my work machine, which is a Dell Optiplex 960 running
FreeBSD 7.2-RELEASE-p3 i386.  Some relevant dmesg stuff:

atapci0: <Intel ATA controller> port 0xfe80-0xfe87,0xfe90-0xfe93,0xfea0-0xfea7,0xfeb0-0xfeb3,0xfef0-0xfeff irq 18 at device 3.2 on pci0
atapci1: <Intel ICH8 SATA300 controller> port 0xfe00-0xfe07,0xfe10-0xfe13,0xfe20-0xfe27,0xfe30-0xfe33,0xfec0-0xfedf mem 0xff970000-0xff9707ff irq 18 at device 31.2 on pci0
ad14: 476940MB <Seagate ST3500630AS 3.AAK> at ata7-master SATA150

--
Bill Moran
Collaborative Fusion Inc.
http://people.collaborativefusion.com/~wmoran/
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Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by dieter-7 :: Rate this Message:

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> > > >> > My question is why is FreeBSD's disk i/o performance so bad?
> >
> > > > Here is a specific demo of one disk i/o problem I'm seeing.  Should be
> > > > easy to reproduce?
> > > >
> > > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-performance/2008-July/003533.html
>
> FYI, I thought I'd play around with this some in an attempt to add some
> useful information to the investigation.
>
> I can not reproduce the problem at all.  I created a 9G file, did the cat
> as described in the above URL, and the man request completed in roughly
> the same time it did without the cat running.

How large is main memory on this machine?  e.g. is 9 GB large enough to
flush everything else out of the disk cache before running the man command
again?  I haven't studied the new unified memory thing, but if we assume
worst case, reading at 50 M/s would take 40 seconds to flush 2 GiB.

BTW there is nothing magic about a 9 GB file, just that it is large enough
to flush the 2 GiB of main memory on my machine and takes long enough to
read to notice a difference in how long it takes to run man.

Updated demo, just to make sure:

# big_file is larger than main memory, on same disk as man (/usr)
time man de # get baseline time for man command without competing i/o
cat big_file > /dev/null # flush man command and data from memory
cat big_file > /dev/null & # generate i/o, attempt to use up bottleneck
time man de # see how much longer man takes with competing i/o
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Parent Message unknown Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by Richard Mahlerwein :: Rate this Message:

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>From: Dieter <freebsd@...>
>Subject: Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem
>To: freebsd-performance@...
>Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 1:07 AM
>
>Updated demo, just to make sure:
>
># big_file is larger than main memory, on same disk as man (/usr)
>time man de        # get baseline time for man command without >competing i/o
>cat big_file > /dev/null   # flush man command and data from memory
>cat big_file > /dev/null & # generate i/o, attempt to use up bottleneck
>time man de      # see how much longer man takes with competing >i/o

Trying it on something that surely will have i/o issues: PIII 500 w/ 60 GB PATA drive and 128 MB RAM.  Blank minimal install + man pages right now.  I'm trying with a "file /etc/" command instead of trying to reliably time man... It seems the file command always hits the disk.  This should also make any sort of "flushing" unecessary, shouldn't it?

liebnitz# uname -a
FreeBSD xyz 7.2-RELEASE FreeBSD 7.2-RELEASE #0: Fri May  1 08:49:13 UTC 2009     root@...:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC  i386

liebnitz# time dd if=/dev/zero of=/usr/bigfile count=4096 bs=1M
4096+0 records in
4096+0 records out
4294967296 bytes transferred in 363.700967 secs (11809062 bytes/sec)
0.055u 83.971s 6:03.78 23.0%    25+1071k 128+34391io 0pf+0w

liebnitz# time file /etc/ [run 5 times]
4.052u 0.047s 0:04.14 98.7%     15+1085k 0+0io 0pf+0w
4.068u 0.031s 0:04.13 99.0%     16+1095k 0+0io 0pf+0w
4.052u 0.046s 0:04.13 99.0%     16+1101k 0+0io 0pf+0w
4.044u 0.054s 0:04.13 99.0%     16+1092k 0+0io 0pf+0w
4.052u 0.046s 0:04.13 99.0%     15+1091k 0+0io 0pf+0w

Ok, so that looks pretty repeatable.  Now...
liebnitz# cat /usr/bigfile > /dev/null &
[1] 37923
liebnitz# time file /etc/* [again run 5 times]
4.146u 0.038s 0:06.80 61.3%     15+1103k 87+0io 8pf+0w
4.128u 0.054s 0:06.73 61.9%     15+1095k 93+0io 6pf+0w
 




Flush as example.
liebnitz# cat /usr/bigfile > /dev/null
liebnitz# cat /usr/bigfile > /dev/null &
[1] 37890




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Parent Message unknown Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by Richard Mahlerwein :: Rate this Message:

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>From: Dieter <freebsd@...>
>Subject: Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem
>To: freebsd-performance@...
>Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 1:07 AM
>
>Updated demo, just to make sure:
>
># big_file is larger than main memory, on same disk as man (/usr)
>time man de       
>cat big_file > /dev/null   
>cat big_file > /dev/null & 
>time man de

Trying it on something that surely will have i/o issues:
PIII 500 w/ 60 GB PATA drive and 256 MB RAM.  Blank
minimal install + man pages right now.  I'm trying with
a "file /etc/" command instead of trying to reliably time
man... It seems the file command always hits the disk. 
This should also make any sort of "flushing" unecessary,
shouldn't it?  Anyway, I tried it with the man command but couldn't discern any difference at all with it, so I'm repeating with "file" which at least gives SOME variance.
 
liebnitz# uname -a
FreeBSD xyz 7.2-RELEASE FreeBSD 7.2-RELEASE #0: Fri May  1 08:49:13 UTC 2009     root@...:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC 
i386

liebnitz# time dd if=/dev/zero of=/usr/bigfile count=4096 bs=1M
4096+0 records in
4096+0 records out
4294967296 bytes transferred in 363.700967 secs (11809062 bytes/sec)
0.055u 83.971s 6:03.78 23.0%    25+1071k 128+34391io 0pf+0w

liebnitz# time file /etc/ [run 5 times]
4.052u 0.047s 0:04.14 98.7%    15+1085k 0+0io 0pf+0w
4.068u 0.031s 0:04.13 99.0%    16+1095k 0+0io 0pf+0w
4.052u 0.046s 0:04.13 99.0%    16+1101k 0+0io 0pf+0w
4.044u 0.054s 0:04.13 99.0%    16+1092k 0+0io 0pf+0w
4.052u 0.046s 0:04.13 99.0%    15+1091k 0+0io 0pf+0w

Ok, so that looks pretty repeatable.  Now...

liebnitz# cat /usr/bigfile > /dev/null &
[1] 37923
liebnitz# time file /etc/* [again run 5 times]
4.146u 0.038s 0:06.80 61.3%    15+1103k 87+0io 8pf+0w
4.128u 0.054s 0:06.73 61.9%    15+1095k 93+0io 6pf+0w
4.127u 0.056s 0:06.65 62.7%    14+1058k 88+0io 4pf+0w
4.111u 0.072s 0:06.84 61.1%    15+1049k 91+0io 6pf+0w
4.115u 0.066s 0:06.86 60.7%    15+1022k 91+0io 6pf+0w

BTW, after the cat is done...
liebnitz# time file /etc/*
4.051u 0.047s 0:04.13 99.0%     15+1078k 0+0io 0pf+0w

I see no unexpected issues, only a minor slowdown, and that could be processer contention, IMO.  

(Sorry for duplicate, I was rewriting with the change to "file" instead of "man" and the two year old decided to press some keys and sent the message.)



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Parent Message unknown Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by Thomas Backman :: Rate this Message:

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(Note: I hope this reply shows up correctly. I subscribed to the  
mailing list after the fact and had to "forge" the subject line.)

Hey everyone,
I'm having serious trouble with the same thing, and just found this  
thread while looking for the correct place to post. Looks like I found  
it. (I wrote most of the post before finding the thread, so some of it  
will seem a bit odd.)

I run 8.0-RC1/amd64 with ZFS on an A64 3200+ with 2GB RAM and an old  
80GB 7200rpm disk.

My problem is that I get completely unacceptable latency on console IO  
(both via SSH and serial console) when the system is performing disk  
IO. The worst case I've noticed yet was when I tried copying a core  
dump from a lzjb compressed ZFS file system to a gzip-9 compressed  
one, to compare the file size/compression ratio. screen(1) took at  
LEAST ten seconds - probably a bit more - I'm not exaggerating here -  
to switch to another window, and an "ls" in an empty directory also  
about 5-10 seconds.
Doing some silly CPU load with two instances of "yes >/dev/null" (on a  
single core, remember) doesn't change anything, the system remains  
very responsive. "cat /dev/zero > /uncompressed_fs/..." however  
produces the extreme slowdown. (On a gzip-1 FS it doesn't, since the  
file ends up extremely small - a kilobyte or so - even after a while,  
thus performing minimal IO).

I'm thinking about switching to FreeBSD on my beefier "production"  
system (dual-core amd64, 4GB RAM, 4x1TB disks, compared to this one,  
single-core, 2GB RAM, 80GB disk), but unless I feel assured this won't  
happen there as well, I'm not so sure anymore. I can do any kind of  
heavy IO/compilation/whatever on that box, currently running Linux,  
and it's always unnoticable. In this case it's impossible *not* to  
notice that your key input is lagging behind 5-10 seconds... I thought  
multiple times that the box must have panicked.
I do realize that the hardware isn't the best, especially the disks,  
but this is far worse than it should be!

Here's some of the testing done in this thread (or at least something  
like it):

[root@chaos ~]# time file /etc/* >/dev/null
real    0m1.725s
user    0m0.993s
sys     0m0.021s
[root@chaos ~]# time file /etc/* >/dev/null

real    0m1.008s
user    0m0.990s
sys     0m0.015s
[root@chaos ~]# time file /etc/* >/dev/null

real    0m1.008s
user    0m0.967s
sys     0m0.038s
[root@chaos ~]# time file /etc/* >/dev/null

real    0m1.015s
user    0m0.998s
sys     0m0.008s

So, pretty much exactly 1 second every time once the cache is warmed  
up. Now, let's try it 10 seconds after starting heavy disk writing...

[root@chaos ~]# cat /dev/zero > /DELETE_ME &
(wait for 10 seconds)
[root@chaos ~]# time file /etc/* >/dev/null

real    0m13.217s
user    0m1.004s
sys     0m0.023s
[root@chaos ~]# time file /etc/* >/dev/null

real    0m24.012s
user    0m1.020s
sys     0m0.008s

... the numbers speak for themselves. FWIW I tried the same on the  
Linux box: "file" took 0.8 seconds the first time, 0.125s subsequent  
times. While running cat, 0.13-0.21 seconds (0.21 being the first,  
subsequent runs took 0.13s). The system remained completely  
responsive, which cannot be said for the FreeBSD one!

Any advice? Info below - please ask if you need more!

Regards,
Thomas

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basic info:

[root@chaos ~]# uname -a
FreeBSD chaos.exscape.org 8.0-RC1 FreeBSD 8.0-RC1 #1 r197613M: Tue Sep  
29 15:04:44 CEST 2009     root@...:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/
DTRACE  amd64
(KDB/DDB enabled, WITNESS/INVARIANTS *disabled*)

[root@chaos ~]# mount
tank/root on / (zfs, local, noatime)
devfs on /dev (devfs, local, multilabel)
/dev/ad0s1a on /bootdir (ufs, local, soft-updates)
tank/export on /export (zfs, NFS exported, local, noatime)
tank/tmp on /tmp (zfs, local, noatime)
tank/usr on /usr (zfs, local, noatime)
tank/usr/obj on /usr/obj (zfs, local, noatime)
tank/usr/ports on /usr/ports (zfs, local, noatime)
tank/usr/ports/distfiles on /usr/ports/distfiles (zfs, local, noatime)
tank/usr/src on /usr/src (zfs, local, noatime)
tank/usr/src_r196905 on /usr/src_r196905 (zfs, local, noatime, read-
only)
tank/var on /var (zfs, local, noatime)
tank/var/crash on /var/crash (zfs, local, noatime)
tank/var/log on /var/log (zfs, local, noatime)
tank/var/tmp on /var/tmp (zfs, local, noatime)

dmesg:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright (c) 1992-2009 The FreeBSD Project.
Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994
        The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation.
FreeBSD 8.0-RC1 #1 r197613M: Tue Sep 29 15:04:44 CEST 2009
     root@...:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/DTRACE
Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0
CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+ (2009.27-MHz K8-class CPU)
   Origin = "AuthenticAMD"  Id = 0x10ff0  Stepping = 0
   
Features
=
0x78bfbff
<
FPU
,VME
,DE
,PSE
,TSC
,MSR
,PAE
,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CLFLUSH,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2>
   AMD Features=0xe2500800<SYSCALL,NX,MMX+,FFXSR,LM,3DNow!+,3DNow!>
   AMD Features2=0x1<LAHF>
real memory  = 2147483648 (2048 MB)
avail memory = 2052362240 (1957 MB)
ACPI APIC Table: <Nvidia AWRDACPI>
ioapic0 <Version 1.1> irqs 0-23 on motherboard
kbd1 at kbdmux0
acpi0: <Nvidia AWRDACPI> on motherboard
acpi0: [ITHREAD]
acpi0: Power Button (fixed)
acpi0: reservation of 0, a0000 (3) failed
acpi0: reservation of 100000, 7fef0000 (3) failed
Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000
acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x4008-0x400b on acpi0
acpi_button0: <Power Button> on acpi0
pcib0: <ACPI Host-PCI bridge> port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0
pci0: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib0
pci0: <memory> at device 0.0 (no driver attached)
isab0: <PCI-ISA bridge> at device 1.0 on pci0
isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0
pci0: <serial bus, SMBus> at device 1.1 (no driver attached)
ohci0: <OHCI (generic) USB controller> mem 0xfe02f000-0xfe02ffff irq  
21 at device 2.0 on pci0
ohci0: [ITHREAD]
usbus0: <OHCI (generic) USB controller> on ohci0
ehci0: <NVIDIA nForce4 USB 2.0 controller> mem 0xfe02e000-0xfe02e0ff  
irq 22 at device 2.1 on pci0
ehci0: [ITHREAD]
usbus1: EHCI version 1.0
usbus1: <NVIDIA nForce4 USB 2.0 controller> on ehci0
atapci0: <nVidia nForce CK804 UDMA133 controller> port  
0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xfb00-0xfb0f at device 6.0 on pci0
ata0: <ATA channel 0> on atapci0
ata0: [ITHREAD]
ata1: <ATA channel 1> on atapci0
ata1: [ITHREAD]
atapci1: <nVidia nForce CK804 SATA300 controller> port  
0x9f0-0x9f7,0xbf0-0xbf3,0x970-0x977,0xb70-0xb73,0xf600-0xf60f mem  
0xfe02b000-0xfe02bfff irq 23 at device 7.0 on pci0
atapci1: [ITHREAD]
ata2: <ATA channel 0> on atapci1
ata2: [ITHREAD]
ata3: <ATA channel 1> on atapci1
ata3: [ITHREAD]
atapci2: <nVidia nForce CK804 SATA300 controller> port  
0x9e0-0x9e7,0xbe0-0xbe3,0x960-0x967,0xb60-0xb63,0xf100-0xf10f mem  
0xfe02a000-0xfe02afff irq 21 at device 8.0 on pci0
atapci2: [ITHREAD]
ata4: <ATA channel 0> on atapci2
ata4: [ITHREAD]
ata5: <ATA channel 1> on atapci2
ata5: [ITHREAD]
pcib1: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 9.0 on pci0
pci1: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib1
vgapci0: <VGA-compatible display> mem 0xfcff8000-0xfcffbfff,
0xfd000000-0xfd7fffff,0xfc000000-0xfc7fffff irq 17 at device 7.0 on pci1
xl0: <3Com 3c905C-TX Fast Etherlink XL> port 0xdf00-0xdf7f mem  
0xfcfff000-0xfcfff07f irq 18 at device 9.0 on pci1
miibus0: <MII bus> on xl0
xlphy0: <3c905C 10/100 internal PHY> PHY 24 on miibus0
xlphy0:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto
xl0: Ethernet address: 00:50:da:44:c0:4a
xl0: [ITHREAD]
nfe0: <NVIDIA nForce4 CK804 MCP9 Networking Adapter> port  
0xf000-0xf007 mem 0xfe029000-0xfe029fff irq 22 at device 10.0 on pci0
miibus1: <MII bus> on nfe0
e1000phy0: <Marvell 88E1111 Gigabit PHY> PHY 1 on miibus1
e1000phy0:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 1000baseT,  
1000baseT-FDX, auto
nfe0: Ethernet address: 00:13:d3:a2:aa:0f
nfe0: [FILTER]
pcib2: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 11.0 on pci0
pci2: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib2
pcib3: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 12.0 on pci0
pci3: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib3
pcib4: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 13.0 on pci0
pci4: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib4
pcib5: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 14.0 on pci0
pci5: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib5
amdtemp0: <AMD K8 Thermal Sensors> on hostb3
acpi_tz0: <Thermal Zone> on acpi0
atrtc0: <AT realtime clock> port 0x70-0x73 irq 8 on acpi0
uart0: <16550 or compatible> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on acpi0
uart0: [FILTER]
uart0: console (115200,n,8,1)
atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0
atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> irq 1 on atkbdc0
kbd0 at atkbd0
atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED]
atkbd0: [ITHREAD]
cpu0: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0
powernow0: <Cool`n'Quiet K8> on cpu0
device_attach: powernow0 attach returned 6
orm0: <ISA Option ROMs> at iomem 0xc0000-0xc7fff,0xc8000-0xcbfff,
0xcc000-0xcc7ff on isa0
sc0: <System console> at flags 0x100 on isa0
sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300>
vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on  
isa0
ZFS NOTICE: system has less than 4GB and prefetch enable is not set...  
disabling.
ZFS filesystem version 13
ZFS storage pool version 13
Timecounter "TSC" frequency 2009269513 Hz quality 800
Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec
usbus0: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0
usbus1: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0
ad0: 76318MB <Seagate ST380021A 3.19> at ata0-master UDMA100
ugen0.1: <nVidia> at usbus0
uhub0: <nVidia OHCI root HUB, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1> on  
usbus0
ugen1.1: <nVidia> at usbus1
uhub1: <nVidia EHCI root HUB, class 9/0, rev 2.00/1.00, addr 1> on  
usbus1
ad2: 9768MB <Seagate ST310014A 3.09> at ata1-master UDMA100
GEOM: ad2s1: geometry does not match label (255h,63s != 16h,63s).
Root mount waiting for: usbus1 usbus0
uhub0: 10 ports with 10 removable, self powered
Root mount waiting for: usbus1
Root mount waiting for: usbus1
Root mount waiting for: usbus1
uhub1: 10 ports with 10 removable, self powered
Trying to mount root from zfs:tank/root
netsmb_dev: loaded

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 80GB disk is used for everything except swap (aka. dump device)  
for which the 10GB disk is used, exclusively.

loader.conf has nothing of value (just loading a few modules and a  
vfs.root.mountfrom, plus serial console settings).
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ZFS Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by dieter-7 :: Rate this Message:

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In message <E316139E-FFCF-432F-8DCE-62B120C38E55@...>, Thomas Backman writes:

> I run 8.0-RC1/amd64 with ZFS on an A64 3200+ with 2GB RAM and an old  
> 80GB 7200rpm disk.
>
> My problem is that I get completely unacceptable latency on console IO  
> (both via SSH and serial console) when the system is performing disk  
> IO. The worst case I've noticed yet was when I tried copying a core  
> dump from a lzjb compressed ZFS file system to a gzip-9 compressed  
> one, to compare the file size/compression ratio. screen(1) took at  
> LEAST ten seconds - probably a bit more - I'm not exaggerating here -  
> to switch to another window, and an "ls" in an empty directory also  
> about 5-10 seconds.

You might find the "RELENG_7 heavy disk = system crawls" thread interesting:

} I didn't actually solve it or do anything.
} I just upgraded to RELENG_8.
}
} Now it's behaving more like FreeBSD should.
} I can do sequential reads/writes and still
} use kbd/mouse/X11/buildworld and so on.
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tuning FFS for large files Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by dieter-7 :: Rate this Message:

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I found a clue!  The problem occurs with my big data partitions,
which are newfs-ed with options intended to improve things.

Reading a large file from the normal ad4s5b partition only delays other
commands slightly, as expected.  Reading a large file from the tuned
ad4s11 partition yields the delay of minutes for other i/o.

# tunefs -p /dev/ad4s5b
tunefs: ACLs: (-a)                                         disabled
tunefs: MAC multilabel: (-l)                               disabled
tunefs: soft updates: (-n)                                 enabled
tunefs: gjournal: (-J)                                     disabled
tunefs: maximum blocks per file in a cylinder group: (-e)  1024
tunefs: average file size: (-f)                            16384
tunefs: average number of files in a directory: (-s)       64
tunefs: minimum percentage of free space: (-m)             8%
tunefs: optimization preference: (-o)                      time
tunefs: volume label: (-L)                                

# tunefs -p /dev/ad4s11
tunefs: ACLs: (-a)                                         disabled
tunefs: MAC multilabel: (-l)                               disabled
tunefs: soft updates: (-n)                                 enabled
tunefs: gjournal: (-J)                                     disabled
tunefs: maximum blocks per file in a cylinder group: (-e)  57984
tunefs: average file size: (-f)                            67108864
tunefs: average number of files in a directory: (-s)       16
tunefs: minimum percentage of free space: (-m)             8%
tunefs: optimization preference: (-o)                      time
tunefs: volume label: (-L)                    

Here is the newfs command used for creating large data partitions:
newfs -e 57984 -b 65536 -f 8192 -g 67108864 -h 16 -i 67108864 -U -o time $partition

Even this isn't tuned the way I wanted to.
-g * -h must be less than 4 G due to 32 bit problem (system panics).
Note the 32 bit problem is in the filesystem code, I'm running amd64.
IIRC there is a PR about this.  (I'm assuming the bug hasn't been fixed yet)
Result is that I must specify -g and -h smaller than they should be.
And they have way more inodes than needed. (IIRC it doesn't actually
use -i 67108864)

Partition sizes range from ~200 GB to 1.5 TB.  A small number of
directories, perhaps a dozen.  About 1/2 the files are small, a few KB,
the other half are large, 500MB-25GB.

Goals are to minimize seeking and use space efficiently.  Files are
written sequentially, read mostly (99.99%) sequentially, no editing.

I still think it may have something to do with a common resource
such as disk cache, as it can affect other disks, including swap.
Hmmm, does swap use the disk cache?  But now it appears that FFS
tuning is the cause of the bottleneck.

Do these tuning parameters increase the number of some data structure
needed?  Can I crank that up?  Do I have to change the FFS tuning?
Suggestions?
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Re: ZFS Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by Thomas Backman :: Rate this Message:

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On Oct 5, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Dieter wrote:

> In message <E316139E-FFCF-432F-8DCE-62B120C38E55@...>,  
> Thomas Backman writes:
>
>> I run 8.0-RC1/amd64 with ZFS on an A64 3200+ with 2GB RAM and an old
>> 80GB 7200rpm disk.
>>
>> My problem is that I get completely unacceptable latency on console  
>> IO
>> (both via SSH and serial console) when the system is performing disk
>> IO. The worst case I've noticed yet was when I tried copying a core
>> dump from a lzjb compressed ZFS file system to a gzip-9 compressed
>> one, to compare the file size/compression ratio. screen(1) took at
>> LEAST ten seconds - probably a bit more - I'm not exaggerating here -
>> to switch to another window, and an "ls" in an empty directory also
>> about 5-10 seconds.
>
> You might find the "RELENG_7 heavy disk = system crawls" thread  
> interesting:
>
> } I didn't actually solve it or do anything.
> } I just upgraded to RELENG_8.
> }
> } Now it's behaving more like FreeBSD should.
> } I can do sequential reads/writes and still
> } use kbd/mouse/X11/buildworld and so on.

Doesn't really help much I'm afraid, since 8.0-RC1 = RELENG_8 = stable/
8. Been running current/stable-8 since May.

Regards,
Thomas
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Re: tuning FFS for large files Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by Bruce Evans-4 :: Rate this Message:

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On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Dieter wrote:

> I found a clue!  The problem occurs with my big data partitions,
> which are newfs-ed with options intended to improve things.
>
> Reading a large file from the normal ad4s5b partition only delays other
> commands slightly, as expected.  Reading a large file from the tuned
> ad4s11 partition yields the delay of minutes for other i/o.
> ...
> Here is the newfs command used for creating large data partitions:
> newfs -e 57984 -b 65536 -f 8192 -g 67108864 -h 16 -i 67108864 -U -o time $partition

Any block size above the default (16K) tends to thrash and fragment buffer
cache virtual memory.  This is obviously a good pessimization with lots of
small files, and apparently, as you have found, it is a good pessimization
with a few large files too.  I think severe fragmentation can easily take
several seconds to recover from.  The worst case for causing fragmentaion
is probably a mixture of small and large files.

Some users fear fs consistency bugs with block sizes >= 16K, but I've never
seen them cause any bugs ecept performance ones.

> Even this isn't tuned the way I wanted to.
> -g * -h must be less than 4 G due to 32 bit problem (system panics).

The panic is now avoided in some versions of FreeBSD (-8 and -current at
least).

> Note the 32 bit problem is in the filesystem code, I'm running amd64.
> IIRC there is a PR about this.  (I'm assuming the bug hasn't been fixed yet)
> Result is that I must specify -g and -h smaller than they should be.

I bet you can't see any difference (except the panic) from enlarging -g and
-h.

> And they have way more inodes than needed. (IIRC it doesn't actually
> use -i 67108864)

It has to have at least 1 inode per cg, and may as well have a full block
of them, which gives a fairly large number of inodes especially if the
block size is too large (64K), so the -i ratio is limited.

Bruce
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Re: ZFS Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by O. Hartmann-4 :: Rate this Message:

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Thomas Backman wrote:

> On Oct 5, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Dieter wrote:
>
>> In message <E316139E-FFCF-432F-8DCE-62B120C38E55@...>, Thomas
>> Backman writes:
>>
>>> I run 8.0-RC1/amd64 with ZFS on an A64 3200+ with 2GB RAM and an old
>>> 80GB 7200rpm disk.
>>>
>>> My problem is that I get completely unacceptable latency on console IO
>>> (both via SSH and serial console) when the system is performing disk
>>> IO. The worst case I've noticed yet was when I tried copying a core
>>> dump from a lzjb compressed ZFS file system to a gzip-9 compressed
>>> one, to compare the file size/compression ratio. screen(1) took at
>>> LEAST ten seconds - probably a bit more - I'm not exaggerating here -
>>> to switch to another window, and an "ls" in an empty directory also
>>> about 5-10 seconds.
>>
>> You might find the "RELENG_7 heavy disk = system crawls" thread
>> interesting:
>>
>> } I didn't actually solve it or do anything.
>> } I just upgraded to RELENG_8.
>> }
>> } Now it's behaving more like FreeBSD should.
>> } I can do sequential reads/writes and still
>> } use kbd/mouse/X11/buildworld and so on.
>
> Doesn't really help much I'm afraid, since 8.0-RC1 = RELENG_8 =
> stable/8. Been running current/stable-8 since May.
>
> Regards,
> Thomas
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> "freebsd-performance-unsubscribe@..."

Is this really ZFS-bound? I also saw (and still see!) massive
performance impacts when a lot of disk activities, especially when
compiling large packages (done on UFS2 disks). Copying data from one ZFS
drive to (on different harddrive) another ZFS drive (which is
compressed) doesn't impact performance that much.

When the box hit this performance issue, console, X11 and other
activities tend to be stuck for minutes! This happens on an UP box
(Athlon64 3500+, 2 GB ECC RAM, 2x 250 GB WD SATA-II disks and 1 TB WD
SATA-II disk (1x 250 GB UFS2 for system, 1x 250 GB ZFS compressed for
backup, 1x 1 TB ZFS holding /home).

But this impact is also noticable on my lab's machine: Quad core Intel
Q6600 CPU at 3,0 GHZ, 8 GB RAM, 1x 320 GB SATA-II UFS2 disk for system,
2x SATA-II 500 ZFS and 1x 750 GB disks ZFS and even on a 8 core, two
socket Dell PowerEdge 1950-III box with two XEON CPUs running at 2,5
GHz, 16 GB RAM and two SATA-II harddrives attached to the built in SAS
controller.

Maybe this is of interest:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=freebsd8_ubuntu910&num=1

Watch the threaded I/O impact ...

Regards,
Oliver
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Re: ZFS Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by Thomas Backman :: Rate this Message:

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On Oct 6, 2009, at 10:57 AM, O. Hartmann wrote:

> Thomas Backman wrote:
>> On Oct 5, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Dieter wrote:
>>> In message <E316139E-FFCF-432F-8DCE-62B120C38E55@...>,  
>>> Thomas Backman writes:
>>>
>>>> I run 8.0-RC1/amd64 with ZFS on an A64 3200+ with 2GB RAM and an  
>>>> old
>>>> 80GB 7200rpm disk.
>>>>
>>>> My problem is that I get completely unacceptable latency on  
>>>> console IO
>>>> (both via SSH and serial console) when the system is performing  
>>>> disk
>>>> IO. The worst case I've noticed yet was when I tried copying a core
>>>> dump from a lzjb compressed ZFS file system to a gzip-9 compressed
>>>> one, to compare the file size/compression ratio. screen(1) took at
>>>> LEAST ten seconds - probably a bit more - I'm not exaggerating  
>>>> here -
>>>> to switch to another window, and an "ls" in an empty directory also
>>>> about 5-10 seconds.
>>>
>>> You might find the "RELENG_7 heavy disk = system crawls" thread  
>>> interesting:
>>>
>>> } I didn't actually solve it or do anything.
>>> } I just upgraded to RELENG_8.
>>> }
>>> } Now it's behaving more like FreeBSD should.
>>> } I can do sequential reads/writes and still
>>> } use kbd/mouse/X11/buildworld and so on.
>> Doesn't really help much I'm afraid, since 8.0-RC1 = RELENG_8 =  
>> stable/8. Been running current/stable-8 since May.
>> Regards,
>> Thomas
>> _______________________________________________
>> freebsd-performance@... mailing list
>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-performance
>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-performance-unsubscribe@...
>> "
>
> Is this really ZFS-bound? I also saw (and still see!) massive  
> performance impacts when a lot of disk activities, especially when  
> compiling large packages (done on UFS2 disks). Copying data from one  
> ZFS drive to (on different harddrive) another ZFS drive (which is  
> compressed) doesn't impact performance that much.
>
> When the box hit this performance issue, console, X11 and other  
> activities tend to be stuck for minutes! This happens on an UP box  
> (Athlon64 3500+, 2 GB ECC RAM, 2x 250 GB WD SATA-II disks and 1 TB  
> WD SATA-II disk (1x 250 GB UFS2 for system, 1x 250 GB ZFS compressed  
> for backup, 1x 1 TB ZFS holding /home).
>
> But this impact is also noticable on my lab's machine: Quad core  
> Intel Q6600 CPU at 3,0 GHZ, 8 GB RAM, 1x 320 GB SATA-II UFS2 disk  
> for system, 2x SATA-II 500 ZFS and 1x 750 GB disks ZFS and even on a  
> 8 core, two socket Dell PowerEdge 1950-III box with two XEON CPUs  
> running at 2,5 GHz, 16 GB RAM and two SATA-II harddrives attached to  
> the built in SAS controller.
>
> Maybe this is of interest:
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=freebsd8_ubuntu910&num=1
>
> Watch the threaded I/O impact ...
>
> Regards,
> Oliver
It doesn't appear to be an ZFS issue, no. (Note that I wasn't the one  
who added it to the subject line :)
I just tried it to my one UFS filesystem, and while screen(1) DID  
remain 100% responsive, everything didn't. vim worked OK most of the  
time, but other FS ops on the same disk... oh no. I aborted the "file /
etc/*" after 57 seconds. Tried it again after stopping the disk IO  
(cat /dev/zero > /bootdir/filename) - 1.52 seconds.

This raises the question: is this some kind of hardware specific  
issue? If so, what hardware? I can't think of anything my computer  
would have in common with the ones you've listed!
I mean, come on, FreeBSD's IO performance can't be this abysmal for  
everybody or nobody would use it for serious applications. Something  
must be wrong for a few of us, but where and why?

Regards,
Thomas
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Re: tuning FFS for large files Re: A specific example of a disk i/o problem

by dieter-7 :: Rate this Message:

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> > I found a clue!  The problem occurs with my big data partitions,
> > which are newfs-ed with options intended to improve things.
> >
> > Reading a large file from the normal ad4s5b partition only delays other
> > commands slightly, as expected.  Reading a large file from the tuned
> > ad4s11 partition yields the delay of minutes for other i/o.
> > ...
> > Here is the newfs command used for creating large data partitions:
> > newfs -e 57984 -b 65536 -f 8192 -g 67108864 -h 16 -i 67108864 -U -o time $partition
>
> Any block size above the default (16K) tends to thrash and fragment buffer
> cache virtual memory.  This is obviously a good pessimization with lots of
> small files, and apparently, as you have found, it is a good pessimization
> with a few large files too.  I think severe fragmentation can easily take
> several seconds to recover from.  The worst case for causing fragmentaion
> is probably a mixture of small and large files.

Is there any way to avoid the "thrash and fragment buffercache virtual memory"
problem other than keeping the block size 16K or smaller?

> Some users fear fs consistency bugs with block sizes >= 16K, but I've never
> seen them cause any bugs ecept performance ones.

Yep, many TB of files on filesystems created with above newfs command and
no corruption/consistency problems.

> > And they have way more inodes than needed. (IIRC it doesn't actually
> > use -i 67108864)
>
> It has to have at least 1 inode per cg, and may as well have a full block
> of them, which gives a fairly large number of inodes especially if the
> block size is too large (64K), so the -i ratio is limited.

I converted a few filesystems to the default.  In addition to losing space,
fsck time went through the roof.  So back to playing with newfs options.

For some reason, larger block/frag sizes allow fewer cylinder groups, which
reduces the number of inodes more than the larger block size increases
it.  From my reading of the newfs man page, -c only allows making
cylinder groups smaller, not larger, and that appears to be the case in
practice.

default:
   newfs -U /dev/ad14s4
   /dev/ad14s4: 431252.6MB (883205320 sectors) block size 16384, fragment size 2048
        using 2348 cylinder groups of 183.72MB, 11758 blks, 23552 inodes.

   Filesystem   1M-blocks    Used  Avail Capacity iused     ifree %iused  Mounted on
   /dev/ad14s4     417678       0 384263     0%       2  55300092    0%  

   fsck -fp:  real    0m37.165s

Attempt to reduce number of inodes:
   newfs -U -i 134217728 -g 134217728 -h 16 -e 261129     /dev/ad14s4
   density reduced from 134217728 to 3676160
   /dev/ad14s4: 431252.6MB (883205320 sectors) block size 16384, fragment size 2048
        using 1923 cylinder groups of 224.38MB, 14360 blks, 64 inodes.

   Filesystem   1M-blocks    Used  Avail Capacity iused     ifree %iused  Mounted on
   /dev/ad14s4     431162       0 396669     0%       2    123068    0%  

   fsck -fp: real    0m32.687s

Bigger block size:
   newfs -U -i 134217728 -g 134217728 -h 16 -e 261129 -b 65536    /dev/ad14s4
   increasing fragment size from 2048 to block size / 8 (8192)
   density reduced from 134217728 to 14860288
   /dev/ad14s4: 431252.6MB (883205312 sectors) block size 65536, fragment size 8192
        using 119 cylinder groups of 3628.00MB, 58048 blks, 256 inodes.

   Filesystem   1M-blocks    Used  Avail Capacity iused     ifree %iused  Mounted on
   /dev/ad14s4     431230       0 396731     0%       2     30460    0%  

   fsck -fp:  real    0m3.144s

Bigger block size and bigger frag size:
   newfs -U -i 134217728 -g 134217728 -h 16 -e 261129 -b 65536 -f 65536   /dev/ad14s4
   density reduced from 134217728 to 66846720
   /dev/ad14s4: 431252.6MB (883205248 sectors) block size 65536, fragment size 65536
        using 27 cylinder groups of 16320.56MB, 261129 blks, 512 inodes.

   Filesystem   1M-blocks    Used  Avail Capacity iused     ifree %iused  Mounted on
   /dev/ad14s4     431245       0 396745     0%       2     13820    0%  

   fsck -fp:  real    0m0.369s

With -b 65536 -f 65536 I'm finally approaching a reasonable number of inodes
(even less would be better).  The fsck time varies by a factor of over 100,
and results are roughly similar on filesystems with files in them.
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