AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal

[Adam Peller-5]

AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal

0.  Rationale

While the term AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) has only recently
been coined, the underlying web standards and technologies (JavaScript
a.k.a. ECMAScript, DOM, XML, SOAP, and so on) have been around for years.
Although the term is used in a variety of ways, AJAX typically describes
techniques towards developing interactive applications on the web client
including asynchronous messaging, use of XML grammar in client-side
applications, incremental page updates, and improved user interface
controls. AJAX applications combine the rich UI experience of programmed
clients with the low-cost lifecycle management of web-based applications.

AJAX has raised awareness of the high potential of web applications, it has
encouraged companies to adopt rich web-based interfaces over traditional
"fat" clients, and it has spawned development activity to create toolkits
and abstractions to make AJAX-style development easier and more powerful.
This is an important trend for open source.  The client itself can be
composed entirely of open-source parts, such as Mozilla's Firefox or KDE's
Konqueror, and does not require any particular operating system, helping to
make a more level playing field for all development.  More importantly,
AJAX is back-end agnostic as transactions are done over HTTP.  Keeping the
client open forces vendors to keep the communication channel open as well,
and this can only continue as long as the client technology keeps pace with
proprietary alternatives.  The open, standards based communications channel
is what drives many technologies inside Apache, so success of the open
client is vital to Apache.  The mission of this project is to encourage
innovation around enterprise-strength client runtimes and tools and build a
community which can select and nurture a select set which will be most
beneficial to the web.

0.1 Criteria

Meritocracy:

Apache was chosen for an incubator primarily because of the guidance the
community can provide.  The two subprojects put forth are among the first
attempts to formalize this style of development.  Additional ideas, tools
or entire runtimes may come forward and indeed would be welcomed to the
project, either wholesale as new subprojects or incorporated into the
existing code.

Community:

The contributed work was inspired by open source development but needs a
strong and diverse community to validate its mission and carry it forward.
A primary objective of the project is to build a vibrant community of users
and active contributors.

Core Developers:

All of the initial committers are members of Zimbra and IBM development
teams.  All developers have worked on open source projects before and have
experience and understanding of open source principles.

Alignment:

Initial implementation consists of two sub projects.

The AJAX Toolkit Framework will provide a strategic framework for
Interactive Development Environments (IDEs) for the many different AJAX
toolkit offerings in the market. It provides a rich set of tools for the
AJAX / DHTML developer including: a JavaScript editor with edit-time syntax
checking; Mozilla web browser; integrated DOM browser; integrated
JavaScript debugger; and wizards and development aides tuned to specific
libraries and toolkits.  The Framework is extensible to support other AJAX
toolkits and has a wizard-based tool to facilitate the integration of new
toolkits in the framework.

The AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on  Mozilla XULRunner and
JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set of
Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds 4 other open source components:
Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
4 open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as-is by repackaging them as
part of the AJAX Toolkit Framework.

The Zimbra AJAX Development Toolkit, the first toolkit integrated into the
framework, provides a rich client library, similar in style to traditional
object-oriented widget libraries like Eclipse's SWT.  This toolkit hides
implementation details and browser quirks and makes web development more
accessible to the enterprise developer.  It provides

 * User interface development
 * Network communications (both synchronous and asynchronous)
 * SOAP programming
 * XML document creation and manipulation
 * UI event handling and management

For further information, please see the Zimbra AjaxTK whitepaper:
http://www.zimbra.com/pdf/Zimbra%20AJAX%20TK%20Whitepaper.pdf

0.2  Warning signs

Orphaned products:

The initial code submission is based on colloborative work between IBM and
Zimbra to provide a toolkit and a framework to embed the toolkit in IDE
environment and provide additional enhancements. Both the companies believe
that taking a joint approach and making it available through open source
will make it widely accepted and create a community and unify Industry
momentum to consolidate requirements and accelerate community growth and
enhance the toolkit to ease development of AJAX applications.

Inexperience with open source:

Both the companies and several of the commiters are very experienced in
Open Source environment. All efforts will be made to ensure that the work
done and momentum will be in strict adherence to open source guidelines.

Homogenous developers:

The current list of committers includes developers who are geographically
distributed.  They are experienced with working in a distributed
environment, and with resolving technical differences.

Reliance on salaried developers:

All of the initial developers are paid by their employers to contribute to
this project and the employers track records for ongoing investment in open
source communities well known.

No ties to other Apache products:

The initial codebase will be licensed under the Apache License 2.0.The
dependencies on other external projects are defined in the alignment
section.  While there are no direct build dependencies on other Apache
projects, the development of AJAX clients will often be driven by Apache
middleware and will have a positive impact on the open source movement as
described in the "Rationale" section.

A fascination with the Apache brand:

The committers are intent on developing a strong open source community. We
believe that the Apache Software Foundation's emphasis on community
development makes it the most suitable choice.

1. Scope of the subprojects


The subprojects will include development tools necessary to encourage
browser-based, AJAX-style development for individual users as well as in
the enterprise.  The tools will be driven by an extensible IDE Framework
and may include utilities to assist in code development, analysis, and
testing.  The tools will be adaptable to different AJAX runtimes, some of
which will also be subprojects in the incubator.  The initial submission
includes an IDE and one such runtime.

These initial projects are intended merely as starting points and should
not be taken as bounding the scope of the project as a whole. Some other
potential projects may include:

 * WYSIWYG tools for building AJAX-style interfaces
 * Declarative grammars or abstractions for AJAX programming
 * A common data model to facilitate efficient server communication with
Javascript or DOM access

2. Identify the initial source from which the subprojects are to be
populated

AJAX Toolkit Framework was developed at IBM as a set of plugins based on
the Eclipse Framework and WebTools Project.  Zip files containing snapshots
of CVS directories are provided with this proposal at
http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-ibm.tgz and
http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-contrib.tgz

The Zimbra AjaxTK is available today in open source, and can be downloaded
as part of the Zimbra Collaboration Suite (choose the source code version)
at
http://www.zimbra.com/community/downloads.php.  A snapshot of the AJAX
toolkit code is provided at http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/Ajax.tar.gz

2.1 External Dependencies of the project

AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on Mozilla XULRunner and
JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set of
Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds four other open source components
Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
four open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as is by repackaging them as
part of AJAX Toolkit Framework. In the future any AJAX toolkit that is to
be supported can be included as another plugin.

3. Identify the ASF resources to be created

3.1 mailing list(s)

    * ajaxtk-ppmc
    * ajaxtk-dev
    * ajaxtk-commits
    * ajaxtk-user

3.2 Subversion repository

    * [WWW] https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/ajaxtk

3.3 Bugzilla

    * AJAXTK (AJAXTK)

4. Identify the initial set of committers:

    * Craig Becker
    * Leugim Bustelo
    * Andrew Clark
    * Conrad Damon
    * Ross Dargahi
    * Becky Gibson
    * Javier Pedemonte
    * Adam Peller
    * Roland Schemers
    * Donald Sedota
    * Parag Shah
    * Greg Solovyev

5. Identify Apache sponsoring individual

We request that the Apache Incubator PMC sponsor the AJAX Toolkit Framework
as an
incubating project, with the eventual goal of graduation as a TLP.  The
initial contributors feel the scope of the project doesn't clearly
overlap with any existing TLP, and is broad enough to justify eventual
TLP status.

Champion:    Sam Ruby

Mentors:     ??


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[pzfreo]

Adam

I offer to help mentor this.

Paul


--
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair

http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@...

"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com

On 12/20/05, Adam Peller <apeller@...> wrote:

>
> AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
>
> 0.  Rationale
>
> While the term AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) has only recently
> been coined, the underlying web standards and technologies (JavaScript
> a.k.a. ECMAScript, DOM, XML, SOAP, and so on) have been around for years.
> Although the term is used in a variety of ways, AJAX typically describes
> techniques towards developing interactive applications on the web client
> including asynchronous messaging, use of XML grammar in client-side
> applications, incremental page updates, and improved user interface
> controls. AJAX applications combine the rich UI experience of programmed
> clients with the low-cost lifecycle management of web-based applications.
>
> AJAX has raised awareness of the high potential of web applications, it
> has
> encouraged companies to adopt rich web-based interfaces over traditional
> "fat" clients, and it has spawned development activity to create toolkits
> and abstractions to make AJAX-style development easier and more powerful.
> This is an important trend for open source.  The client itself can be
> composed entirely of open-source parts, such as Mozilla's Firefox or KDE's
> Konqueror, and does not require any particular operating system, helping
> to
> make a more level playing field for all development.  More importantly,
> AJAX is back-end agnostic as transactions are done over HTTP.  Keeping the
> client open forces vendors to keep the communication channel open as well,
> and this can only continue as long as the client technology keeps pace
> with
> proprietary alternatives.  The open, standards based communications
> channel
> is what drives many technologies inside Apache, so success of the open
> client is vital to Apache.  The mission of this project is to encourage
> innovation around enterprise-strength client runtimes and tools and build
> a
> community which can select and nurture a select set which will be most
> beneficial to the web.
>
> 0.1 Criteria
>
> Meritocracy:
>
> Apache was chosen for an incubator primarily because of the guidance the
> community can provide.  The two subprojects put forth are among the first
> attempts to formalize this style of development.  Additional ideas, tools
> or entire runtimes may come forward and indeed would be welcomed to the
> project, either wholesale as new subprojects or incorporated into the
> existing code.
>
> Community:
>
> The contributed work was inspired by open source development but needs a
> strong and diverse community to validate its mission and carry it forward.
> A primary objective of the project is to build a vibrant community of
> users
> and active contributors.
>
> Core Developers:
>
> All of the initial committers are members of Zimbra and IBM development
> teams.  All developers have worked on open source projects before and have
> experience and understanding of open source principles.
>
> Alignment:
>
> Initial implementation consists of two sub projects.
>
> The AJAX Toolkit Framework will provide a strategic framework for
> Interactive Development Environments (IDEs) for the many different AJAX
> toolkit offerings in the market. It provides a rich set of tools for the
> AJAX / DHTML developer including: a JavaScript editor with edit-time
> syntax
> checking; Mozilla web browser; integrated DOM browser; integrated
> JavaScript debugger; and wizards and development aides tuned to specific
> libraries and toolkits.  The Framework is extensible to support other AJAX
> toolkits and has a wizard-based tool to facilitate the integration of new
> toolkits in the framework.
>
> The AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on  Mozilla XULRunner and
> JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set
> of
> Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds 4 other open source components:
> Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
> 4 open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
> Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as-is by repackaging them as
> part of the AJAX Toolkit Framework.
>
> The Zimbra AJAX Development Toolkit, the first toolkit integrated into the
> framework, provides a rich client library, similar in style to traditional
> object-oriented widget libraries like Eclipse's SWT.  This toolkit hides
> implementation details and browser quirks and makes web development more
> accessible to the enterprise developer.  It provides
>
> * User interface development
> * Network communications (both synchronous and asynchronous)
> * SOAP programming
> * XML document creation and manipulation
> * UI event handling and management
>
> For further information, please see the Zimbra AjaxTK whitepaper:
> http://www.zimbra.com/pdf/Zimbra%20AJAX%20TK%20Whitepaper.pdf
>
> 0.2  Warning signs
>
> Orphaned products:
>
> The initial code submission is based on colloborative work between IBM and
> Zimbra to provide a toolkit and a framework to embed the toolkit in IDE
> environment and provide additional enhancements. Both the companies
> believe
> that taking a joint approach and making it available through open source
> will make it widely accepted and create a community and unify Industry
> momentum to consolidate requirements and accelerate community growth and
> enhance the toolkit to ease development of AJAX applications.
>
> Inexperience with open source:
>
> Both the companies and several of the commiters are very experienced in
> Open Source environment. All efforts will be made to ensure that the work
> done and momentum will be in strict adherence to open source guidelines.
>
> Homogenous developers:
>
> The current list of committers includes developers who are geographically
> distributed.  They are experienced with working in a distributed
> environment, and with resolving technical differences.
>
> Reliance on salaried developers:
>
> All of the initial developers are paid by their employers to contribute to
> this project and the employers track records for ongoing investment in
> open
> source communities well known.
>
> No ties to other Apache products:
>
> The initial codebase will be licensed under the Apache License 2.0.The
> dependencies on other external projects are defined in the alignment
> section.  While there are no direct build dependencies on other Apache
> projects, the development of AJAX clients will often be driven by Apache
> middleware and will have a positive impact on the open source movement as
> described in the "Rationale" section.
>
> A fascination with the Apache brand:
>
> The committers are intent on developing a strong open source community. We
> believe that the Apache Software Foundation's emphasis on community
> development makes it the most suitable choice.
>
> 1. Scope of the subprojects
>
>
> The subprojects will include development tools necessary to encourage
> browser-based, AJAX-style development for individual users as well as in
> the enterprise.  The tools will be driven by an extensible IDE Framework
> and may include utilities to assist in code development, analysis, and
> testing.  The tools will be adaptable to different AJAX runtimes, some of
> which will also be subprojects in the incubator.  The initial submission
> includes an IDE and one such runtime.
>
> These initial projects are intended merely as starting points and should
> not be taken as bounding the scope of the project as a whole. Some other
> potential projects may include:
>
> * WYSIWYG tools for building AJAX-style interfaces
> * Declarative grammars or abstractions for AJAX programming
> * A common data model to facilitate efficient server communication with
> Javascript or DOM access
>
> 2. Identify the initial source from which the subprojects are to be
> populated
>
> AJAX Toolkit Framework was developed at IBM as a set of plugins based on
> the Eclipse Framework and WebTools Project.  Zip files containing
> snapshots
> of CVS directories are provided with this proposal at
> http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-ibm.tgz and
> http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-contrib.tgz
>
> The Zimbra AjaxTK is available today in open source, and can be downloaded
> as part of the Zimbra Collaboration Suite (choose the source code version)
> at
> http://www.zimbra.com/community/downloads.php.  A snapshot of the AJAX
> toolkit code is provided at http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/Ajax.tar.gz
>
> 2.1 External Dependencies of the project
>
> AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on Mozilla XULRunner and
> JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set
> of
> Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds four other open source components
> Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
> four open source components specified. They are incorporated to
> accommodate
> Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as is by repackaging them as
> part of AJAX Toolkit Framework. In the future any AJAX toolkit that is to
> be supported can be included as another plugin.
>
> 3. Identify the ASF resources to be created
>
> 3.1 mailing list(s)
>
>     * ajaxtk-ppmc
>     * ajaxtk-dev
>     * ajaxtk-commits
>     * ajaxtk-user
>
> 3.2 Subversion repository
>
>     * [WWW] https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/ajaxtk
>
> 3.3 Bugzilla
>
>     * AJAXTK (AJAXTK)
>
> 4. Identify the initial set of committers:
>
>     * Craig Becker
>     * Leugim Bustelo
>     * Andrew Clark
>     * Conrad Damon
>     * Ross Dargahi
>     * Becky Gibson
>     * Javier Pedemonte
>     * Adam Peller
>     * Roland Schemers
>     * Donald Sedota
>     * Parag Shah
>     * Greg Solovyev
>
> 5. Identify Apache sponsoring individual
>
> We request that the Apache Incubator PMC sponsor the AJAX Toolkit
> Framework
> as an
> incubating project, with the eventual goal of graduation as a TLP.  The
> initial contributors feel the scope of the project doesn't clearly
> overlap with any existing TLP, and is broad enough to justify eventual
> TLP status.
>
> Champion:    Sam Ruby
>
> Mentors:     ??
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
>
>

[Martin Marinschek]

I'm very interested in this.

Even though I am not an Apache member (so no potential mentor ;) I'd
be very interested in what this project means for the Apache
MyFaces-javascript and AJAX integration.

regards,

Martin

On 12/20/05, Paul Fremantle <pzfreo@...> wrote:

> Adam
>
> I offer to help mentor this.
>
> Paul
>
>
> --
> Paul Fremantle
> VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
>
> http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
> paul@...
>
> "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
>
> On 12/20/05, Adam Peller <apeller@...> wrote:
> >
> > AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
> >
> > 0.  Rationale
> >
> > While the term AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) has only recently
> > been coined, the underlying web standards and technologies (JavaScript
> > a.k.a. ECMAScript, DOM, XML, SOAP, and so on) have been around for years.
> > Although the term is used in a variety of ways, AJAX typically describes
> > techniques towards developing interactive applications on the web client
> > including asynchronous messaging, use of XML grammar in client-side
> > applications, incremental page updates, and improved user interface
> > controls. AJAX applications combine the rich UI experience of programmed
> > clients with the low-cost lifecycle management of web-based applications.
> >
> > AJAX has raised awareness of the high potential of web applications, it
> > has
> > encouraged companies to adopt rich web-based interfaces over traditional
> > "fat" clients, and it has spawned development activity to create toolkits
> > and abstractions to make AJAX-style development easier and more powerful.
> > This is an important trend for open source.  The client itself can be
> > composed entirely of open-source parts, such as Mozilla's Firefox or KDE's
> > Konqueror, and does not require any particular operating system, helping
> > to
> > make a more level playing field for all development.  More importantly,
> > AJAX is back-end agnostic as transactions are done over HTTP.  Keeping the
> > client open forces vendors to keep the communication channel open as well,
> > and this can only continue as long as the client technology keeps pace
> > with
> > proprietary alternatives.  The open, standards based communications
> > channel
> > is what drives many technologies inside Apache, so success of the open
> > client is vital to Apache.  The mission of this project is to encourage
> > innovation around enterprise-strength client runtimes and tools and build
> > a
> > community which can select and nurture a select set which will be most
> > beneficial to the web.
> >
> > 0.1 Criteria
> >
> > Meritocracy:
> >
> > Apache was chosen for an incubator primarily because of the guidance the
> > community can provide.  The two subprojects put forth are among the first
> > attempts to formalize this style of development.  Additional ideas, tools
> > or entire runtimes may come forward and indeed would be welcomed to the
> > project, either wholesale as new subprojects or incorporated into the
> > existing code.
> >
> > Community:
> >
> > The contributed work was inspired by open source development but needs a
> > strong and diverse community to validate its mission and carry it forward.
> > A primary objective of the project is to build a vibrant community of
> > users
> > and active contributors.
> >
> > Core Developers:
> >
> > All of the initial committers are members of Zimbra and IBM development
> > teams.  All developers have worked on open source projects before and have
> > experience and understanding of open source principles.
> >
> > Alignment:
> >
> > Initial implementation consists of two sub projects.
> >
> > The AJAX Toolkit Framework will provide a strategic framework for
> > Interactive Development Environments (IDEs) for the many different AJAX
> > toolkit offerings in the market. It provides a rich set of tools for the
> > AJAX / DHTML developer including: a JavaScript editor with edit-time
> > syntax
> > checking; Mozilla web browser; integrated DOM browser; integrated
> > JavaScript debugger; and wizards and development aides tuned to specific
> > libraries and toolkits.  The Framework is extensible to support other AJAX
> > toolkits and has a wizard-based tool to facilitate the integration of new
> > toolkits in the framework.
> >
> > The AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on  Mozilla XULRunner and
> > JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set
> > of
> > Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds 4 other open source components:
> > Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
> > 4 open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
> > Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as-is by repackaging them as
> > part of the AJAX Toolkit Framework.
> >
> > The Zimbra AJAX Development Toolkit, the first toolkit integrated into the
> > framework, provides a rich client library, similar in style to traditional
> > object-oriented widget libraries like Eclipse's SWT.  This toolkit hides
> > implementation details and browser quirks and makes web development more
> > accessible to the enterprise developer.  It provides
> >
> > * User interface development
> > * Network communications (both synchronous and asynchronous)
> > * SOAP programming
> > * XML document creation and manipulation
> > * UI event handling and management
> >
> > For further information, please see the Zimbra AjaxTK whitepaper:
> > http://www.zimbra.com/pdf/Zimbra%20AJAX%20TK%20Whitepaper.pdf
> >
> > 0.2  Warning signs
> >
> > Orphaned products:
> >
> > The initial code submission is based on colloborative work between IBM and
> > Zimbra to provide a toolkit and a framework to embed the toolkit in IDE
> > environment and provide additional enhancements. Both the companies
> > believe
> > that taking a joint approach and making it available through open source
> > will make it widely accepted and create a community and unify Industry
> > momentum to consolidate requirements and accelerate community growth and
> > enhance the toolkit to ease development of AJAX applications.
> >
> > Inexperience with open source:
> >
> > Both the companies and several of the commiters are very experienced in
> > Open Source environment. All efforts will be made to ensure that the work
> > done and momentum will be in strict adherence to open source guidelines.
> >
> > Homogenous developers:
> >
> > The current list of committers includes developers who are geographically
> > distributed.  They are experienced with working in a distributed
> > environment, and with resolving technical differences.
> >
> > Reliance on salaried developers:
> >
> > All of the initial developers are paid by their employers to contribute to
> > this project and the employers track records for ongoing investment in
> > open
> > source communities well known.
> >
> > No ties to other Apache products:
> >
> > The initial codebase will be licensed under the Apache License 2.0.The
> > dependencies on other external projects are defined in the alignment
> > section.  While there are no direct build dependencies on other Apache
> > projects, the development of AJAX clients will often be driven by Apache
> > middleware and will have a positive impact on the open source movement as
> > described in the "Rationale" section.
> >
> > A fascination with the Apache brand:
> >
> > The committers are intent on developing a strong open source community. We
> > believe that the Apache Software Foundation's emphasis on community
> > development makes it the most suitable choice.
> >
> > 1. Scope of the subprojects
> >
> >
> > The subprojects will include development tools necessary to encourage
> > browser-based, AJAX-style development for individual users as well as in
> > the enterprise.  The tools will be driven by an extensible IDE Framework
> > and may include utilities to assist in code development, analysis, and
> > testing.  The tools will be adaptable to different AJAX runtimes, some of
> > which will also be subprojects in the incubator.  The initial submission
> > includes an IDE and one such runtime.
> >
> > These initial projects are intended merely as starting points and should
> > not be taken as bounding the scope of the project as a whole. Some other
> > potential projects may include:
> >
> > * WYSIWYG tools for building AJAX-style interfaces
> > * Declarative grammars or abstractions for AJAX programming
> > * A common data model to facilitate efficient server communication with
> > Javascript or DOM access
> >
> > 2. Identify the initial source from which the subprojects are to be
> > populated
> >
> > AJAX Toolkit Framework was developed at IBM as a set of plugins based on
> > the Eclipse Framework and WebTools Project.  Zip files containing
> > snapshots
> > of CVS directories are provided with this proposal at
> > http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-ibm.tgz and
> > http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-contrib.tgz
> >
> > The Zimbra AjaxTK is available today in open source, and can be downloaded
> > as part of the Zimbra Collaboration Suite (choose the source code version)
> > at
> > http://www.zimbra.com/community/downloads.php.  A snapshot of the AJAX
> > toolkit code is provided at http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/Ajax.tar.gz
> >
> > 2.1 External Dependencies of the project
> >
> > AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on Mozilla XULRunner and
> > JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set
> > of
> > Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds four other open source components
> > Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
> > four open source components specified. They are incorporated to
> > accommodate
> > Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as is by repackaging them as
> > part of AJAX Toolkit Framework. In the future any AJAX toolkit that is to
> > be supported can be included as another plugin.
> >
> > 3. Identify the ASF resources to be created
> >
> > 3.1 mailing list(s)
> >
> >     * ajaxtk-ppmc
> >     * ajaxtk-dev
> >     * ajaxtk-commits
> >     * ajaxtk-user
> >
> > 3.2 Subversion repository
> >
> >     * [WWW] https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/ajaxtk
> >
> > 3.3 Bugzilla
> >
> >     * AJAXTK (AJAXTK)
> >
> > 4. Identify the initial set of committers:
> >
> >     * Craig Becker
> >     * Leugim Bustelo
> >     * Andrew Clark
> >     * Conrad Damon
> >     * Ross Dargahi
> >     * Becky Gibson
> >     * Javier Pedemonte
> >     * Adam Peller
> >     * Roland Schemers
> >     * Donald Sedota
> >     * Parag Shah
> >     * Greg Solovyev
> >
> > 5. Identify Apache sponsoring individual
> >
> > We request that the Apache Incubator PMC sponsor the AJAX Toolkit
> > Framework
> > as an
> > incubating project, with the eventual goal of graduation as a TLP.  The
> > initial contributors feel the scope of the project doesn't clearly
> > overlap with any existing TLP, and is broad enough to justify eventual
> > TLP status.
> >
> > Champion:    Sam Ruby
> >
> > Mentors:     ??
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
> >
> >
>
>

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[Sylvain Wallez]

Adam Peller wrote:
> AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
>  

I'm quite puzzled by this proposal. As I understand it, its mainly about
a set of Eclipse plugins for Ajax applications and the Zimbra library
that, among other features, provides a set of SWT-like widgets.

Also, this proposal pops up right after I mention on members@ that
several projects at Apache are using or plan to use Dojo [1] and that we
talked about inviting them. I sincerely hope this is just a coincidence.

So the questions are:
- is the ASF the place for Eclipse extensions? I don't deny the ability
to _existing_ project to host their tooling, but this isn't the case here.

- why incubate an Ajax library that none of the current ASF projects
uses nor plans to use, unless I missed something?

Sylvain

[1] http://www.dojotoolkit.org/

--
Sylvain Wallez                        Anyware Technologies
http://bluxte.net                     http://www.anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member     Research & Technology Director


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[Sam Ruby-2]

Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Adam Peller wrote:
>
>> AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal  
>
> I'm quite puzzled by this proposal. As I understand it, its mainly about
> a set of Eclipse plugins for Ajax applications and the Zimbra library
> that, among other features, provides a set of SWT-like widgets.

Yes.

> Also, this proposal pops up right after I mention on members@ that
> several projects at Apache are using or plan to use Dojo [1] and that we
> talked about inviting them. I sincerely hope this is just a coincidence.

Completely a coincidence.  I've been aware of the plan to submit this
proposal for several weeks, and hadn't seen your post until you
mentioned it.  I also had a conflict that precluded me from coming to
the ApacheCon.

As a general rule, the ASF doesn't go out "inviting", people within the
ASF either start a new project, or projects come to us.

In any case, the ASF is not exclusionary: if there was interest Dojo
could be added to this proposal, or could pursue a separate proposal.

> So the questions are:
> - is the ASF the place for Eclipse extensions? I don't deny the ability
> to _existing_ project to host their tooling, but this isn't the case here.

As I mentioned, I was involved with these discussions.  The ASF doesn't
tend to make these types of decisions based on the technical aspects of
a project.  What impressed me about the people who were proposing this
is that they were sincerely interested in the Apache License and
collaboration model.

While the Eclipse development model is certain a valid one, it is
different in a number of significant ways from the ASF.  Suffice it to
say that I am partial to the way the ASF does business.

> - why incubate an Ajax library that none of the current ASF projects
> uses nor plans to use, unless I missed something?

It is a valid question, but it is also valid to point out that the ASF
has projects as diverse as TCL and SpamAssassin.

What is more important is considerations that the code be licensed with
the Apache Software License (not dual licensed, like Dojo), that the
committer bases be diverse, and operate in an open and collaborative model.

> Sylvain
>
> [1] http://www.dojotoolkit.org/

- Sam Ruby

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[Adam Peller-5]

Hi Martin.

Although I confess to know little about MyFaces, I'd imagine your AJAX
components could work well within our tooling environment and that custom
extensions to support them are possible.  Out of the box (or with minimal
effort, at least) you should get some integrated JS support in JSPs, have
access to a debugger, snippets, and some other generic web tooling.  What
other sorts of tooling on the client do you think might help the MyFaces
project?

Also, perhaps some cross-polination with other toolkits, such as Zimbra and
Rico, could prove helpful, whether code is used directly or if just some of
the patterns prove useful?

Regards,
Adam




                                                                           
             Martin Marinschek                                            
             <martin.marinsche                                            
             k@...>                                               To
                                       general@...        
             12/20/2005 09:54                                           cc
             AM                                                            
                                                                   Subject
                                       Re: AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
             Please respond to                                            
                  general                                                  
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                           




I'm very interested in this.

Even though I am not an Apache member (so no potential mentor ;) I'd
be very interested in what this project means for the Apache
MyFaces-javascript and AJAX integration.

regards,

Martin

On 12/20/05, Paul Fremantle <pzfreo@...> wrote:

> Adam
>
> I offer to help mentor this.
>
> Paul
>
>
> --
> Paul Fremantle
> VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
>
> http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
> paul@...
>
> "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
>
> On 12/20/05, Adam Peller <apeller@...> wrote:
> >
> > AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
> >
> > 0.  Rationale
> >
> > While the term AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) has only recently
> > been coined, the underlying web standards and technologies (JavaScript
> > a.k.a. ECMAScript, DOM, XML, SOAP, and so on) have been around for

years.
> > Although the term is used in a variety of ways, AJAX typically
describes
> > techniques towards developing interactive applications on the web
client
> > including asynchronous messaging, use of XML grammar in client-side
> > applications, incremental page updates, and improved user interface
> > controls. AJAX applications combine the rich UI experience of
programmed
> > clients with the low-cost lifecycle management of web-based
applications.
> >
> > AJAX has raised awareness of the high potential of web applications, it
> > has
> > encouraged companies to adopt rich web-based interfaces over
traditional
> > "fat" clients, and it has spawned development activity to create
toolkits
> > and abstractions to make AJAX-style development easier and more
powerful.
> > This is an important trend for open source.  The client itself can be
> > composed entirely of open-source parts, such as Mozilla's Firefox or
KDE's
> > Konqueror, and does not require any particular operating system,
helping
> > to
> > make a more level playing field for all development.  More importantly,
> > AJAX is back-end agnostic as transactions are done over HTTP.  Keeping
the
> > client open forces vendors to keep the communication channel open as
well,
> > and this can only continue as long as the client technology keeps pace
> > with
> > proprietary alternatives.  The open, standards based communications
> > channel
> > is what drives many technologies inside Apache, so success of the open
> > client is vital to Apache.  The mission of this project is to encourage
> > innovation around enterprise-strength client runtimes and tools and
build
> > a
> > community which can select and nurture a select set which will be most
> > beneficial to the web.
> >
> > 0.1 Criteria
> >
> > Meritocracy:
> >
> > Apache was chosen for an incubator primarily because of the guidance
the
> > community can provide.  The two subprojects put forth are among the
first
> > attempts to formalize this style of development.  Additional ideas,
tools
> > or entire runtimes may come forward and indeed would be welcomed to the
> > project, either wholesale as new subprojects or incorporated into the
> > existing code.
> >
> > Community:
> >
> > The contributed work was inspired by open source development but needs
a
> > strong and diverse community to validate its mission and carry it
forward.
> > A primary objective of the project is to build a vibrant community of
> > users
> > and active contributors.
> >
> > Core Developers:
> >
> > All of the initial committers are members of Zimbra and IBM development
> > teams.  All developers have worked on open source projects before and
have
> > experience and understanding of open source principles.
> >
> > Alignment:
> >
> > Initial implementation consists of two sub projects.
> >
> > The AJAX Toolkit Framework will provide a strategic framework for
> > Interactive Development Environments (IDEs) for the many different AJAX
> > toolkit offerings in the market. It provides a rich set of tools for
the
> > AJAX / DHTML developer including: a JavaScript editor with edit-time
> > syntax
> > checking; Mozilla web browser; integrated DOM browser; integrated
> > JavaScript debugger; and wizards and development aides tuned to
specific
> > libraries and toolkits.  The Framework is extensible to support other
AJAX
> > toolkits and has a wizard-based tool to facilitate the integration of
new
> > toolkits in the framework.
> >
> > The AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on  Mozilla XULRunner and
> > JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a
set
> > of
> > Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds 4 other open source components:
> > Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to
the
> > 4 open source components specified. They are incorporated to
accommodate
> > Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as-is by repackaging them
as
> > part of the AJAX Toolkit Framework.
> >
> > The Zimbra AJAX Development Toolkit, the first toolkit integrated into
the
> > framework, provides a rich client library, similar in style to
traditional
> > object-oriented widget libraries like Eclipse's SWT.  This toolkit
hides
> > implementation details and browser quirks and makes web development
more

> > accessible to the enterprise developer.  It provides
> >
> > * User interface development
> > * Network communications (both synchronous and asynchronous)
> > * SOAP programming
> > * XML document creation and manipulation
> > * UI event handling and management
> >
> > For further information, please see the Zimbra AjaxTK whitepaper:
> > http://www.zimbra.com/pdf/Zimbra%20AJAX%20TK%20Whitepaper.pdf
> >
> > 0.2  Warning signs
> >
> > Orphaned products:
> >
> > The initial code submission is based on colloborative work between IBM

and
> > Zimbra to provide a toolkit and a framework to embed the toolkit in IDE
> > environment and provide additional enhancements. Both the companies
> > believe
> > that taking a joint approach and making it available through open
source
> > will make it widely accepted and create a community and unify Industry
> > momentum to consolidate requirements and accelerate community growth
and
> > enhance the toolkit to ease development of AJAX applications.
> >
> > Inexperience with open source:
> >
> > Both the companies and several of the commiters are very experienced in
> > Open Source environment. All efforts will be made to ensure that the
work
> > done and momentum will be in strict adherence to open source
guidelines.
> >
> > Homogenous developers:
> >
> > The current list of committers includes developers who are
geographically
> > distributed.  They are experienced with working in a distributed
> > environment, and with resolving technical differences.
> >
> > Reliance on salaried developers:
> >
> > All of the initial developers are paid by their employers to contribute
to

> > this project and the employers track records for ongoing investment in
> > open
> > source communities well known.
> >
> > No ties to other Apache products:
> >
> > The initial codebase will be licensed under the Apache License 2.0.The
> > dependencies on other external projects are defined in the alignment
> > section.  While there are no direct build dependencies on other Apache
> > projects, the development of AJAX clients will often be driven by

Apache
> > middleware and will have a positive impact on the open source movement
as
> > described in the "Rationale" section.
> >
> > A fascination with the Apache brand:
> >
> > The committers are intent on developing a strong open source community.
We
> > believe that the Apache Software Foundation's emphasis on community
> > development makes it the most suitable choice.
> >
> > 1. Scope of the subprojects
> >
> >
> > The subprojects will include development tools necessary to encourage
> > browser-based, AJAX-style development for individual users as well as
in
> > the enterprise.  The tools will be driven by an extensible IDE
Framework
> > and may include utilities to assist in code development, analysis, and
> > testing.  The tools will be adaptable to different AJAX runtimes, some
of
> > which will also be subprojects in the incubator.  The initial
submission
> > includes an IDE and one such runtime.
> >
> > These initial projects are intended merely as starting points and
should
> > not be taken as bounding the scope of the project as a whole. Some
other

> > potential projects may include:
> >
> > * WYSIWYG tools for building AJAX-style interfaces
> > * Declarative grammars or abstractions for AJAX programming
> > * A common data model to facilitate efficient server communication with
> > Javascript or DOM access
> >
> > 2. Identify the initial source from which the subprojects are to be
> > populated
> >
> > AJAX Toolkit Framework was developed at IBM as a set of plugins based

on
> > the Eclipse Framework and WebTools Project.  Zip files containing
> > snapshots
> > of CVS directories are provided with this proposal at
> > http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-ibm.tgz and
> > http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-contrib.tgz
> >
> > The Zimbra AjaxTK is available today in open source, and can be
downloaded
> > as part of the Zimbra Collaboration Suite (choose the source code
version)
> > at
> > http://www.zimbra.com/community/downloads.php.  A snapshot of the AJAX
> > toolkit code is provided at
http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/Ajax.tar.gz
> >
> > 2.1 External Dependencies of the project
> >
> > AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on Mozilla XULRunner and
> > JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a
set
> > of
> > Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds four other open source
components
> > Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to
the
> > four open source components specified. They are incorporated to
> > accommodate
> > Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as is by repackaging them
as
> > part of AJAX Toolkit Framework. In the future any AJAX toolkit that is
to

> > be supported can be included as another plugin.
> >
> > 3. Identify the ASF resources to be created
> >
> > 3.1 mailing list(s)
> >
> >     * ajaxtk-ppmc
> >     * ajaxtk-dev
> >     * ajaxtk-commits
> >     * ajaxtk-user
> >
> > 3.2 Subversion repository
> >
> >     * [WWW] https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/ajaxtk
> >
> > 3.3 Bugzilla
> >
> >     * AJAXTK (AJAXTK)
> >
> > 4. Identify the initial set of committers:
> >
> >     * Craig Becker
> >     * Leugim Bustelo
> >     * Andrew Clark
> >     * Conrad Damon
> >     * Ross Dargahi
> >     * Becky Gibson
> >     * Javier Pedemonte
> >     * Adam Peller
> >     * Roland Schemers
> >     * Donald Sedota
> >     * Parag Shah
> >     * Greg Solovyev
> >
> > 5. Identify Apache sponsoring individual
> >
> > We request that the Apache Incubator PMC sponsor the AJAX Toolkit
> > Framework
> > as an
> > incubating project, with the eventual goal of graduation as a TLP.  The
> > initial contributors feel the scope of the project doesn't clearly
> > overlap with any existing TLP, and is broad enough to justify eventual
> > TLP status.
> >
> > Champion:    Sam Ruby
> >
> > Mentors:     ??
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
> >
> >
>
>

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[Adam Peller-5]

Sylvain -

Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>So the questions are:
>- is the ASF the place for Eclipse extensions? I don't deny the ability
>to _existing_ project to host their tooling, but this isn't the case here.

The framework is composed of tools that happen to use Eclipse for a
runtime, much like Java-based projects use a JVM.  As Sam stated, hopefully
it's the function that's of interest more than the platform, though I can
understand that this is not a typical proposal. The framework is only one
component of the project; runtime libraries and other AJAX-based utilities
(not tied to Eclipse) can find a home here also.

>- why incubate an Ajax library that none of the current ASF projects
>uses nor plans to use, unless I missed something?

What we hope to achieve is to form a community around AJAX. The tools we
put forth, we believe, will be helpful contributions towards that
community, but others are welcome. AJAX is likely to indirectly drive
Apache-based servers, and direct integration between AJAX and existing
Apache projects is certainly possible -- MyFaces is one such example.
Already we are building on top of integrated support for Tomcat to support
J2EE-based projects, and providing extensible tooling is key to the
architecture, so we should look for more integration points.

As for Dojo, we're very impressed with the project also.  The tooling
framework we offer is extensible and even comes with tooling to create the
tooling -- something I didn't get into in the proposal, but it's basically
a wizard-driven UI to make it easier to get at least basic support for
toolkits.  Custom features would require real coding.

-Adam


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[Sylvain Wallez]

Sam Ruby wrote:

> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>> Adam Peller wrote:
>>
>>> AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal  
>>
>> I'm quite puzzled by this proposal. As I understand it, its mainly
>> about a set of Eclipse plugins for Ajax applications and the Zimbra
>> library that, among other features, provides a set of SWT-like widgets.
>
> Yes.
>
>> Also, this proposal pops up right after I mention on members@ that
>> several projects at Apache are using or plan to use Dojo [1] and that
>> we talked about inviting them. I sincerely hope this is just a
>> coincidence.
>
> Completely a coincidence.  I've been aware of the plan to submit this
> proposal for several weeks, and hadn't seen your post until you
> mentioned it.  I also had a conflict that precluded me from coming to
> the ApacheCon.
>
> As a general rule, the ASF doesn't go out "inviting", people within
> the ASF either start a new project, or projects come to us.

You're playing with words. Sure, there's no formal invitation process.
Now ASF members can approach projects they find interesting and "suggest
them to submit a proposal to the ASF", for the greatest benefit of both
the coming and existing ASF projects.

Thinking more about it, the fact that the ASF isn't supposed to invite
projects seems to go against the ASF meritocratic rules. You should not
ask for being a committer: you are voted in when other committers
consider you deserve it. And you can reject the offer. Same for
membership. Why couldn't it also apply to projects that already follow
the Apache way and are of interest to the Foundation's projects?

On the other hand, proposals like this one, originating from commercial
entities, really look to me as "pushing the ASF door open", even if the
incubator is supposed to ensure community diversity and healthiness
before graduating as a real project.

> In any case, the ASF is not exclusionary: if there was interest Dojo
> could be added to this proposal, or could pursue a separate proposal.

Right. Now I don't consider starting a proposal war to be the best thing
to do. Especially considering that one of the Dojo devs told me "Those
[the ASF benefits] are all good things, however the political and
organizational overhead of the ASF appears huge". Bingo.

>> So the questions are:
>> - is the ASF the place for Eclipse extensions? I don't deny the
>> ability to _existing_ project to host their tooling, but this isn't
>> the case here.
>
> As I mentioned, I was involved with these discussions.  The ASF
> doesn't tend to make these types of decisions based on the technical
> aspects of a project.  What impressed me about the people who were
> proposing this is that they were sincerely interested in the Apache
> License and collaboration model.
>
> While the Eclipse development model is certain a valid one, it is
> different in a number of significant ways from the ASF.  Suffice it to
> say that I am partial to the way the ASF does business.

Ok. Now some of the planned features seems to directly overlap with
what's already in webtools (e.g. the JavaScript editor), and this
project would be the first one at the ASF in the general IDE tooling
category, which is what Eclipse is all about.

Sure, the development models are different and Apache cares about
community and not technical details, but this seems weird anyway and I'm
wondering if that won't turn into an OSS organizations war which would
certainly be detrimental to all of us.

In other words: why isn't this IBM-originated generic Eclipse tooling
donated to the Webtools project, that also originated from IBM?

>> - why incubate an Ajax library that none of the current ASF projects
>> uses nor plans to use, unless I missed something?
>
> It is a valid question, but it is also valid to point out that the ASF
> has projects as diverse as TCL and SpamAssassin.

The situation is very different here: several projects are integrating
Ajax features and incidentally found that they were considering the same
framework for that purpoe. Whereas none of the ASF projects was already
envisioning close integration with a spam filter when SpamAssassin came
to Apache.

That could even end up with the funny (ahem) situation where Apache has
an Ajax framework that isn't used by its Ajax-enabled server-side
frameworks. Doesn't it sound weird?

> What is more important is considerations that the code be licensed
> with the Apache Software License (not dual licensed, like Dojo), that
> the committer bases be diverse, and operate in an open and
> collaborative model.

C'mon! The incubation process is meant to solve licence and IP problems.
Zimbra is MPL & ZPL(?), and the IBM contribution is "Licensed Materials
- Property of IBM"!!

The Dojo peeps dual-licensed their stuff to allow the widest
distribution possible [1], and have a development model very close to
the Apache way, with active user and developer lists, and committers
nominated on a meritocratic basis. I can't see the same in this
proposal. The Zimbra stuff, as technically impressive as it can be, is
the creation of a single company whose commercial offering is based on
it. Nothing that prevents it to incubate of course, but community
diversity isn't an easy thing to achieve in such conditions.

Sylvain

[1]
http://blog.dojotoolkit.org/2005/12/04/dojo-now-dual-licensed-afl-and-bsd

--
Sylvain Wallez                        Anyware Technologies
http://bluxte.net                     http://www.anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member     Research & Technology Director


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[Dan Diephouse]

Sylvain Wallez wrote:

>>> - why incubate an Ajax library that none of the current ASF projects
>>> uses nor plans to use, unless I missed something?
>>
>> It is a valid question, but it is also valid to point out that the
>> ASF has projects as diverse as TCL and SpamAssassin.
>
> The situation is very different here: several projects are integrating
> Ajax features and incidentally found that they were considering the
> same framework for that purpoe. Whereas none of the ASF projects was
> already envisioning close integration with a spam filter when
> SpamAssassin came to Apache.
>
> That could even end up with the funny (ahem) situation where Apache
> has an Ajax framework that isn't used by its Ajax-enabled server-side
> frameworks. Doesn't it sound weird?
>

I don't think this is weird at all. This may be off topic (or missing
the point), but why do the ASF projects have to be one coherent product
suite? Do they have to all tie together?  Sure tie-ins are great, but
not everything needs to be related or play nice together. We have plenty
of examples of competing projects (see struts, beehive, turbine,
tapestry, etc).

I think Sam summed it up great when he said:

>> What is more important is considerations that the code be licensed
>> with the Apache Software License (not dual licensed, like Dojo), that
>> the committer bases be diverse, and operate in an open and
>> collaborative model.
I think this is right on with the ASF philosophy [1]:

"""
While there is not an official list, these six principles have been
cited as the core beliefs of philosophy behind the foundation, which is
normally referred to as "The Apache Way":

    * collaborative software development
    * commercial-friendly standard license
    * consistently high quality software
    * respectful, honest, technical-based interaction
    * faithful implementation of standards
    * security as a mandatory feature

""""
I think there is a space for any and all projects that meet the above
criteria.

Cheers,
- Dan

1. http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#management

--
Dan Diephouse
Envoi Solutions LLC
http://netzooid.com


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[Cliff Schmidt]

Adam,

Can you tell me if you considered proposing this to the Eclipse Foundation?

Since this project appears to have far stronger dependencies on
Eclipse Foundation projects rather than anything from Apache, can you
tell me why you think bringing this project here is likely to help you
build a stronger community than you would find at Eclipse?  Is there
some other overriding reason you prefer to bring this project to
Apache?

Cliff


On 12/20/05, Adam Peller <apeller@...> wrote:

> AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
>
> 0.  Rationale
>
> While the term AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) has only recently
> been coined, the underlying web standards and technologies (JavaScript
> a.k.a. ECMAScript, DOM, XML, SOAP, and so on) have been around for years.
> Although the term is used in a variety of ways, AJAX typically describes
> techniques towards developing interactive applications on the web client
> including asynchronous messaging, use of XML grammar in client-side
> applications, incremental page updates, and improved user interface
> controls. AJAX applications combine the rich UI experience of programmed
> clients with the low-cost lifecycle management of web-based applications.
>
> AJAX has raised awareness of the high potential of web applications, it has
> encouraged companies to adopt rich web-based interfaces over traditional
> "fat" clients, and it has spawned development activity to create toolkits
> and abstractions to make AJAX-style development easier and more powerful.
> This is an important trend for open source.  The client itself can be
> composed entirely of open-source parts, such as Mozilla's Firefox or KDE's
> Konqueror, and does not require any particular operating system, helping to
> make a more level playing field for all development.  More importantly,
> AJAX is back-end agnostic as transactions are done over HTTP.  Keeping the
> client open forces vendors to keep the communication channel open as well,
> and this can only continue as long as the client technology keeps pace with
> proprietary alternatives.  The open, standards based communications channel
> is what drives many technologies inside Apache, so success of the open
> client is vital to Apache.  The mission of this project is to encourage
> innovation around enterprise-strength client runtimes and tools and build a
> community which can select and nurture a select set which will be most
> beneficial to the web.
>
> 0.1 Criteria
>
> Meritocracy:
>
> Apache was chosen for an incubator primarily because of the guidance the
> community can provide.  The two subprojects put forth are among the first
> attempts to formalize this style of development.  Additional ideas, tools
> or entire runtimes may come forward and indeed would be welcomed to the
> project, either wholesale as new subprojects or incorporated into the
> existing code.
>
> Community:
>
> The contributed work was inspired by open source development but needs a
> strong and diverse community to validate its mission and carry it forward.
> A primary objective of the project is to build a vibrant community of users
> and active contributors.
>
> Core Developers:
>
> All of the initial committers are members of Zimbra and IBM development
> teams.  All developers have worked on open source projects before and have
> experience and understanding of open source principles.
>
> Alignment:
>
> Initial implementation consists of two sub projects.
>
> The AJAX Toolkit Framework will provide a strategic framework for
> Interactive Development Environments (IDEs) for the many different AJAX
> toolkit offerings in the market. It provides a rich set of tools for the
> AJAX / DHTML developer including: a JavaScript editor with edit-time syntax
> checking; Mozilla web browser; integrated DOM browser; integrated
> JavaScript debugger; and wizards and development aides tuned to specific
> libraries and toolkits.  The Framework is extensible to support other AJAX
> toolkits and has a wizard-based tool to facilitate the integration of new
> toolkits in the framework.
>
> The AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on  Mozilla XULRunner and
> JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set of
> Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds 4 other open source components:
> Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
> 4 open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
> Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as-is by repackaging them as
> part of the AJAX Toolkit Framework.
>
> The Zimbra AJAX Development Toolkit, the first toolkit integrated into the
> framework, provides a rich client library, similar in style to traditional
> object-oriented widget libraries like Eclipse's SWT.  This toolkit hides
> implementation details and browser quirks and makes web development more
> accessible to the enterprise developer.  It provides
>
>  * User interface development
>  * Network communications (both synchronous and asynchronous)
>  * SOAP programming
>  * XML document creation and manipulation
>  * UI event handling and management
>
> For further information, please see the Zimbra AjaxTK whitepaper:
> http://www.zimbra.com/pdf/Zimbra%20AJAX%20TK%20Whitepaper.pdf
>
> 0.2  Warning signs
>
> Orphaned products:
>
> The initial code submission is based on colloborative work between IBM and
> Zimbra to provide a toolkit and a framework to embed the toolkit in IDE
> environment and provide additional enhancements. Both the companies believe
> that taking a joint approach and making it available through open source
> will make it widely accepted and create a community and unify Industry
> momentum to consolidate requirements and accelerate community growth and
> enhance the toolkit to ease development of AJAX applications.
>
> Inexperience with open source:
>
> Both the companies and several of the commiters are very experienced in
> Open Source environment. All efforts will be made to ensure that the work
> done and momentum will be in strict adherence to open source guidelines.
>
> Homogenous developers:
>
> The current list of committers includes developers who are geographically
> distributed.  They are experienced with working in a distributed
> environment, and with resolving technical differences.
>
> Reliance on salaried developers:
>
> All of the initial developers are paid by their employers to contribute to
> this project and the employers track records for ongoing investment in open
> source communities well known.
>
> No ties to other Apache products:
>
> The initial codebase will be licensed under the Apache License 2.0.The
> dependencies on other external projects are defined in the alignment
> section.  While there are no direct build dependencies on other Apache
> projects, the development of AJAX clients will often be driven by Apache
> middleware and will have a positive impact on the open source movement as
> described in the "Rationale" section.
>
> A fascination with the Apache brand:
>
> The committers are intent on developing a strong open source community. We
> believe that the Apache Software Foundation's emphasis on community
> development makes it the most suitable choice.
>
> 1. Scope of the subprojects
>
>
> The subprojects will include development tools necessary to encourage
> browser-based, AJAX-style development for individual users as well as in
> the enterprise.  The tools will be driven by an extensible IDE Framework
> and may include utilities to assist in code development, analysis, and
> testing.  The tools will be adaptable to different AJAX runtimes, some of
> which will also be subprojects in the incubator.  The initial submission
> includes an IDE and one such runtime.
>
> These initial projects are intended merely as starting points and should
> not be taken as bounding the scope of the project as a whole. Some other
> potential projects may include:
>
>  * WYSIWYG tools for building AJAX-style interfaces
>  * Declarative grammars or abstractions for AJAX programming
>  * A common data model to facilitate efficient server communication with
> Javascript or DOM access
>
> 2. Identify the initial source from which the subprojects are to be
> populated
>
> AJAX Toolkit Framework was developed at IBM as a set of plugins based on
> the Eclipse Framework and WebTools Project.  Zip files containing snapshots
> of CVS directories are provided with this proposal at
> http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-ibm.tgz and
> http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-contrib.tgz
>
> The Zimbra AjaxTK is available today in open source, and can be downloaded
> as part of the Zimbra Collaboration Suite (choose the source code version)
> at
> http://www.zimbra.com/community/downloads.php.  A snapshot of the AJAX
> toolkit code is provided at http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/Ajax.tar.gz
>
> 2.1 External Dependencies of the project
>
> AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on Mozilla XULRunner and
> JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set of
> Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds four other open source components
> Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
> four open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
> Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as is by repackaging them as
> part of AJAX Toolkit Framework. In the future any AJAX toolkit that is to
> be supported can be included as another plugin.
>
> 3. Identify the ASF resources to be created
>
> 3.1 mailing list(s)
>
>     * ajaxtk-ppmc
>     * ajaxtk-dev
>     * ajaxtk-commits
>     * ajaxtk-user
>
> 3.2 Subversion repository
>
>     * [WWW] https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/ajaxtk
>
> 3.3 Bugzilla
>
>     * AJAXTK (AJAXTK)
>
> 4. Identify the initial set of committers:
>
>     * Craig Becker
>     * Leugim Bustelo
>     * Andrew Clark
>     * Conrad Damon
>     * Ross Dargahi
>     * Becky Gibson
>     * Javier Pedemonte
>     * Adam Peller
>     * Roland Schemers
>     * Donald Sedota
>     * Parag Shah
>     * Greg Solovyev
>
> 5. Identify Apache sponsoring individual
>
> We request that the Apache Incubator PMC sponsor the AJAX Toolkit Framework
> as an
> incubating project, with the eventual goal of graduation as a TLP.  The
> initial contributors feel the scope of the project doesn't clearly
> overlap with any existing TLP, and is broad enough to justify eventual
> TLP status.
>
> Champion:    Sam Ruby
>
> Mentors:     ??
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
>
>

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[Ken Tam-3]

I have a more specific question: have you guys considered separating
this into a plug-ins/tooling donation to Eclipse, and a runtime
donation to Apache?  It seems like the IP is already in a form that
makes this easy (ie, the AJAX Toolkit Framework Eclipse plugins from
IBM, and the AjaxTK Javascript library from Zimbra), and there are
several examples that suggest this kind of parallel community building
works well.

On 12/20/05, Cliff Schmidt <cliffschmidt@...> wrote:

> Adam,
>
> Can you tell me if you considered proposing this to the Eclipse Foundation?
>
> Since this project appears to have far stronger dependencies on
> Eclipse Foundation projects rather than anything from Apache, can you
> tell me why you think bringing this project here is likely to help you
> build a stronger community than you would find at Eclipse?  Is there
> some other overriding reason you prefer to bring this project to
> Apache?
>
> Cliff
>
>
> On 12/20/05, Adam Peller <apeller@...> wrote:
> > AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
> >
> > 0.  Rationale
> >
> > While the term AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) has only recently
> > been coined, the underlying web standards and technologies (JavaScript
> > a.k.a. ECMAScript, DOM, XML, SOAP, and so on) have been around for years.
> > Although the term is used in a variety of ways, AJAX typically describes
> > techniques towards developing interactive applications on the web client
> > including asynchronous messaging, use of XML grammar in client-side
> > applications, incremental page updates, and improved user interface
> > controls. AJAX applications combine the rich UI experience of programmed
> > clients with the low-cost lifecycle management of web-based applications.
> >
> > AJAX has raised awareness of the high potential of web applications, it has
> > encouraged companies to adopt rich web-based interfaces over traditional
> > "fat" clients, and it has spawned development activity to create toolkits
> > and abstractions to make AJAX-style development easier and more powerful.
> > This is an important trend for open source.  The client itself can be
> > composed entirely of open-source parts, such as Mozilla's Firefox or KDE's
> > Konqueror, and does not require any particular operating system, helping to
> > make a more level playing field for all development.  More importantly,
> > AJAX is back-end agnostic as transactions are done over HTTP.  Keeping the
> > client open forces vendors to keep the communication channel open as well,
> > and this can only continue as long as the client technology keeps pace with
> > proprietary alternatives.  The open, standards based communications channel
> > is what drives many technologies inside Apache, so success of the open
> > client is vital to Apache.  The mission of this project is to encourage
> > innovation around enterprise-strength client runtimes and tools and build a
> > community which can select and nurture a select set which will be most
> > beneficial to the web.
> >
> > 0.1 Criteria
> >
> > Meritocracy:
> >
> > Apache was chosen for an incubator primarily because of the guidance the
> > community can provide.  The two subprojects put forth are among the first
> > attempts to formalize this style of development.  Additional ideas, tools
> > or entire runtimes may come forward and indeed would be welcomed to the
> > project, either wholesale as new subprojects or incorporated into the
> > existing code.
> >
> > Community:
> >
> > The contributed work was inspired by open source development but needs a
> > strong and diverse community to validate its mission and carry it forward.
> > A primary objective of the project is to build a vibrant community of users
> > and active contributors.
> >
> > Core Developers:
> >
> > All of the initial committers are members of Zimbra and IBM development
> > teams.  All developers have worked on open source projects before and have
> > experience and understanding of open source principles.
> >
> > Alignment:
> >
> > Initial implementation consists of two sub projects.
> >
> > The AJAX Toolkit Framework will provide a strategic framework for
> > Interactive Development Environments (IDEs) for the many different AJAX
> > toolkit offerings in the market. It provides a rich set of tools for the
> > AJAX / DHTML developer including: a JavaScript editor with edit-time syntax
> > checking; Mozilla web browser; integrated DOM browser; integrated
> > JavaScript debugger; and wizards and development aides tuned to specific
> > libraries and toolkits.  The Framework is extensible to support other AJAX
> > toolkits and has a wizard-based tool to facilitate the integration of new
> > toolkits in the framework.
> >
> > The AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on  Mozilla XULRunner and
> > JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set of
> > Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds 4 other open source components:
> > Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
> > 4 open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
> > Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as-is by repackaging them as
> > part of the AJAX Toolkit Framework.
> >
> > The Zimbra AJAX Development Toolkit, the first toolkit integrated into the
> > framework, provides a rich client library, similar in style to traditional
> > object-oriented widget libraries like Eclipse's SWT.  This toolkit hides
> > implementation details and browser quirks and makes web development more
> > accessible to the enterprise developer.  It provides
> >
> >  * User interface development
> >  * Network communications (both synchronous and asynchronous)
> >  * SOAP programming
> >  * XML document creation and manipulation
> >  * UI event handling and management
> >
> > For further information, please see the Zimbra AjaxTK whitepaper:
> > http://www.zimbra.com/pdf/Zimbra%20AJAX%20TK%20Whitepaper.pdf
> >
> > 0.2  Warning signs
> >
> > Orphaned products:
> >
> > The initial code submission is based on colloborative work between IBM and
> > Zimbra to provide a toolkit and a framework to embed the toolkit in IDE
> > environment and provide additional enhancements. Both the companies believe
> > that taking a joint approach and making it available through open source
> > will make it widely accepted and create a community and unify Industry
> > momentum to consolidate requirements and accelerate community growth and
> > enhance the toolkit to ease development of AJAX applications.
> >
> > Inexperience with open source:
> >
> > Both the companies and several of the commiters are very experienced in
> > Open Source environment. All efforts will be made to ensure that the work
> > done and momentum will be in strict adherence to open source guidelines.
> >
> > Homogenous developers:
> >
> > The current list of committers includes developers who are geographically
> > distributed.  They are experienced with working in a distributed
> > environment, and with resolving technical differences.
> >
> > Reliance on salaried developers:
> >
> > All of the initial developers are paid by their employers to contribute to
> > this project and the employers track records for ongoing investment in open
> > source communities well known.
> >
> > No ties to other Apache products:
> >
> > The initial codebase will be licensed under the Apache License 2.0.The
> > dependencies on other external projects are defined in the alignment
> > section.  While there are no direct build dependencies on other Apache
> > projects, the development of AJAX clients will often be driven by Apache
> > middleware and will have a positive impact on the open source movement as
> > described in the "Rationale" section.
> >
> > A fascination with the Apache brand:
> >
> > The committers are intent on developing a strong open source community. We
> > believe that the Apache Software Foundation's emphasis on community
> > development makes it the most suitable choice.
> >
> > 1. Scope of the subprojects
> >
> >
> > The subprojects will include development tools necessary to encourage
> > browser-based, AJAX-style development for individual users as well as in
> > the enterprise.  The tools will be driven by an extensible IDE Framework
> > and may include utilities to assist in code development, analysis, and
> > testing.  The tools will be adaptable to different AJAX runtimes, some of
> > which will also be subprojects in the incubator.  The initial submission
> > includes an IDE and one such runtime.
> >
> > These initial projects are intended merely as starting points and should
> > not be taken as bounding the scope of the project as a whole. Some other
> > potential projects may include:
> >
> >  * WYSIWYG tools for building AJAX-style interfaces
> >  * Declarative grammars or abstractions for AJAX programming
> >  * A common data model to facilitate efficient server communication with
> > Javascript or DOM access
> >
> > 2. Identify the initial source from which the subprojects are to be
> > populated
> >
> > AJAX Toolkit Framework was developed at IBM as a set of plugins based on
> > the Eclipse Framework and WebTools Project.  Zip files containing snapshots
> > of CVS directories are provided with this proposal at
> > http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-ibm.tgz and
> > http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-contrib.tgz
> >
> > The Zimbra AjaxTK is available today in open source, and can be downloaded
> > as part of the Zimbra Collaboration Suite (choose the source code version)
> > at
> > http://www.zimbra.com/community/downloads.php.  A snapshot of the AJAX
> > toolkit code is provided at http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/Ajax.tar.gz
> >
> > 2.1 External Dependencies of the project
> >
> > AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on Mozilla XULRunner and
> > JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set of
> > Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds four other open source components
> > Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
> > four open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
> > Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as is by repackaging them as
> > part of AJAX Toolkit Framework. In the future any AJAX toolkit that is to
> > be supported can be included as another plugin.
> >
> > 3. Identify the ASF resources to be created
> >
> > 3.1 mailing list(s)
> >
> >     * ajaxtk-ppmc
> >     * ajaxtk-dev
> >     * ajaxtk-commits
> >     * ajaxtk-user
> >
> > 3.2 Subversion repository
> >
> >     * [WWW] https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/ajaxtk
> >
> > 3.3 Bugzilla
> >
> >     * AJAXTK (AJAXTK)
> >
> > 4. Identify the initial set of committers:
> >
> >     * Craig Becker
> >     * Leugim Bustelo
> >     * Andrew Clark
> >     * Conrad Damon
> >     * Ross Dargahi
> >     * Becky Gibson
> >     * Javier Pedemonte
> >     * Adam Peller
> >     * Roland Schemers
> >     * Donald Sedota
> >     * Parag Shah
> >     * Greg Solovyev
> >
> > 5. Identify Apache sponsoring individual
> >
> > We request that the Apache Incubator PMC sponsor the AJAX Toolkit Framework
> > as an
> > incubating project, with the eventual goal of graduation as a TLP.  The
> > initial contributors feel the scope of the project doesn't clearly
> > overlap with any existing TLP, and is broad enough to justify eventual
> > TLP status.
> >
> > Champion:    Sam Ruby
> >
> > Mentors:     ??
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@...
>
>

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[Sam Ruby-2]

Kenneth Tam wrote:
> I have a more specific question: have you guys considered separating
> this into a plug-ins/tooling donation to Eclipse, and a runtime
> donation to Apache?  It seems like the IP is already in a form that
> makes this easy (ie, the AJAX Toolkit Framework Eclipse plugins from
> IBM, and the AjaxTK Javascript library from Zimbra), and there are
> several examples that suggest this kind of parallel community building
> works well.

I'll take this question, as well as Cliff's below.

First, for starters, it is worth noting that there is Apache Licensed
code all over the internet - SourceForge, CodeHaus, people's private
sites, whatever.  Similarly for Eclipse plugins.

Second, code licensed under the Apache license can be sublicensed and/or
bundled/shipped with other projects.  Example: Eclipse ships Ant.

Separate from the IP, the goal is to build a community, a single place
to go to where AJAX related components can be found.  We see an
opportunity to build such a community independent of where the
components originated.  A community where Dojo and others would be
welcome (but not required!) to join, or not, as they wish.

Adam can certainly speak to the technical aspects of this than I can,
but AJAX certainly causes one to rethink the traditional client/server
boundary, in fact it tends to blur it.  One can pick off small pieces
and say this definately belongs on the server, and that could ship with
eclipse, but there are also gray area pieces that we could pick a spot
based on our current understanding, but over time or with the inclusion
of new members and their points of view, our understanding may shift.
It would be advantageous if everything were licensened identically so
that such decisions could be made on a purely technical basis, and not
based on other considerations.

Life is hard enough as is.

  - - -

Could we develop this at the ASF with the Eclipse license?  The answer
would be no.  Could we develop this at Eclipse with the Apache
license... I'll let Eclipse answer that.

Could we develop this at the ASF, with the Apache license, and let
Eclipse sublicense and/or bundle and ship any or all of this?  That
question I can answer: yes!  And the hope would be that this could serve
as the basis for some cross fertilization and teamwork between the two
larger organizations.

  - - -

Now to directly Cliff's question: yes, we considered proposing this to
Eclipse.  And we talked with a number of people there.  And surprisingly
enough - we thought those discussions were settled but they seem to have
sprung back up again after Adam sent in the proposal.

We will pursue those discussions to their completion.

Suffice it to say that Eclipse folks are following this mailing list.  I
invite them to share their thoughts here.

  - - -

My recommendation is that we focus on concrete proposals, and code
bases.  If people would like to suggest specific additions or removals
from the proposal, lets hear it.  The proposal as it stands is to build
a unified, vibrant, and diverse community around code licensed under the
Apache License, version 2.0.  And here seems like a good place to make
that happen.

- Sam Ruby

P.S.  If this isn't complicated enough, there is a third party: Mozilla
involved.  At least there the line seems somewhat clearer.

> On 12/20/05, Cliff Schmidt <cliffschmidt@...> wrote:
>
>>Adam,
>>
>>Can you tell me if you considered proposing this to the Eclipse Foundation?
>>
>>Since this project appears to have far stronger dependencies on
>>Eclipse Foundation projects rather than anything from Apache, can you
>>tell me why you think bringing this project here is likely to help you
>>build a stronger community than you would find at Eclipse?  Is there
>>some other overriding reason you prefer to bring this project to
>>Apache?
>>
>>Cliff
>>
>>
>>On 12/20/05, Adam Peller <apeller@...> wrote:
>>
>>>AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
>>>
>>>0.  Rationale
>>>
>>>While the term AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) has only recently
>>>been coined, the underlying web standards and technologies (JavaScript
>>>a.k.a. ECMAScript, DOM, XML, SOAP, and so on) have been around for years.
>>>Although the term is used in a variety of ways, AJAX typically describes
>>>techniques towards developing interactive applications on the web client
>>>including asynchronous messaging, use of XML grammar in client-side
>>>applications, incremental page updates, and improved user interface
>>>controls. AJAX applications combine the rich UI experience of programmed
>>>clients with the low-cost lifecycle management of web-based applications.
>>>
>>>AJAX has raised awareness of the high potential of web applications, it has
>>>encouraged companies to adopt rich web-based interfaces over traditional
>>>"fat" clients, and it has spawned development activity to create toolkits
>>>and abstractions to make AJAX-style development easier and more powerful.
>>>This is an important trend for open source.  The client itself can be
>>>composed entirely of open-source parts, such as Mozilla's Firefox or KDE's
>>>Konqueror, and does not require any particular operating system, helping to
>>>make a more level playing field for all development.  More importantly,
>>>AJAX is back-end agnostic as transactions are done over HTTP.  Keeping the
>>>client open forces vendors to keep the communication channel open as well,
>>>and this can only continue as long as the client technology keeps pace with
>>>proprietary alternatives.  The open, standards based communications channel
>>>is what drives many technologies inside Apache, so success of the open
>>>client is vital to Apache.  The mission of this project is to encourage
>>>innovation around enterprise-strength client runtimes and tools and build a
>>>community which can select and nurture a select set which will be most
>>>beneficial to the web.
>>>
>>>0.1 Criteria
>>>
>>>Meritocracy:
>>>
>>>Apache was chosen for an incubator primarily because of the guidance the
>>>community can provide.  The two subprojects put forth are among the first
>>>attempts to formalize this style of development.  Additional ideas, tools
>>>or entire runtimes may come forward and indeed would be welcomed to the
>>>project, either wholesale as new subprojects or incorporated into the
>>>existing code.
>>>
>>>Community:
>>>
>>>The contributed work was inspired by open source development but needs a
>>>strong and diverse community to validate its mission and carry it forward.
>>>A primary objective of the project is to build a vibrant community of users
>>>and active contributors.
>>>
>>>Core Developers:
>>>
>>>All of the initial committers are members of Zimbra and IBM development
>>>teams.  All developers have worked on open source projects before and have
>>>experience and understanding of open source principles.
>>>
>>>Alignment:
>>>
>>>Initial implementation consists of two sub projects.
>>>
>>>The AJAX Toolkit Framework will provide a strategic framework for
>>>Interactive Development Environments (IDEs) for the many different AJAX
>>>toolkit offerings in the market. It provides a rich set of tools for the
>>>AJAX / DHTML developer including: a JavaScript editor with edit-time syntax
>>>checking; Mozilla web browser; integrated DOM browser; integrated
>>>JavaScript debugger; and wizards and development aides tuned to specific
>>>libraries and toolkits.  The Framework is extensible to support other AJAX
>>>toolkits and has a wizard-based tool to facilitate the integration of new
>>>toolkits in the framework.
>>>
>>>The AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on  Mozilla XULRunner and
>>>JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set of
>>>Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds 4 other open source components:
>>>Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
>>>4 open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
>>>Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as-is by repackaging them as
>>>part of the AJAX Toolkit Framework.
>>>
>>>The Zimbra AJAX Development Toolkit, the first toolkit integrated into the
>>>framework, provides a rich client library, similar in style to traditional
>>>object-oriented widget libraries like Eclipse's SWT.  This toolkit hides
>>>implementation details and browser quirks and makes web development more
>>>accessible to the enterprise developer.  It provides
>>>
>>> * User interface development
>>> * Network communications (both synchronous and asynchronous)
>>> * SOAP programming
>>> * XML document creation and manipulation
>>> * UI event handling and management
>>>
>>>For further information, please see the Zimbra AjaxTK whitepaper:
>>>http://www.zimbra.com/pdf/Zimbra%20AJAX%20TK%20Whitepaper.pdf
>>>
>>>0.2  Warning signs
>>>
>>>Orphaned products:
>>>
>>>The initial code submission is based on colloborative work between IBM and
>>>Zimbra to provide a toolkit and a framework to embed the toolkit in IDE
>>>environment and provide additional enhancements. Both the companies believe
>>>that taking a joint approach and making it available through open source
>>>will make it widely accepted and create a community and unify Industry
>>>momentum to consolidate requirements and accelerate community growth and
>>>enhance the toolkit to ease development of AJAX applications.
>>>
>>>Inexperience with open source:
>>>
>>>Both the companies and several of the commiters are very experienced in
>>>Open Source environment. All efforts will be made to ensure that the work
>>>done and momentum will be in strict adherence to open source guidelines.
>>>
>>>Homogenous developers:
>>>
>>>The current list of committers includes developers who are geographically
>>>distributed.  They are experienced with working in a distributed
>>>environment, and with resolving technical differences.
>>>
>>>Reliance on salaried developers:
>>>
>>>All of the initial developers are paid by their employers to contribute to
>>>this project and the employers track records for ongoing investment in open
>>>source communities well known.
>>>
>>>No ties to other Apache products:
>>>
>>>The initial codebase will be licensed under the Apache License 2.0.The
>>>dependencies on other external projects are defined in the alignment
>>>section.  While there are no direct build dependencies on other Apache
>>>projects, the development of AJAX clients will often be driven by Apache
>>>middleware and will have a positive impact on the open source movement as
>>>described in the "Rationale" section.
>>>
>>>A fascination with the Apache brand:
>>>
>>>The committers are intent on developing a strong open source community. We
>>>believe that the Apache Software Foundation's emphasis on community
>>>development makes it the most suitable choice.
>>>
>>>1. Scope of the subprojects
>>>
>>>
>>>The subprojects will include development tools necessary to encourage
>>>browser-based, AJAX-style development for individual users as well as in
>>>the enterprise.  The tools will be driven by an extensible IDE Framework
>>>and may include utilities to assist in code development, analysis, and
>>>testing.  The tools will be adaptable to different AJAX runtimes, some of
>>>which will also be subprojects in the incubator.  The initial submission
>>>includes an IDE and one such runtime.
>>>
>>>These initial projects are intended merely as starting points and should
>>>not be taken as bounding the scope of the project as a whole. Some other
>>>potential projects may include:
>>>
>>> * WYSIWYG tools for building AJAX-style interfaces
>>> * Declarative grammars or abstractions for AJAX programming
>>> * A common data model to facilitate efficient server communication with
>>>Javascript or DOM access
>>>
>>>2. Identify the initial source from which the subprojects are to be
>>>populated
>>>
>>>AJAX Toolkit Framework was developed at IBM as a set of plugins based on
>>>the Eclipse Framework and WebTools Project.  Zip files containing snapshots
>>>of CVS directories are provided with this proposal at
>>>http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-ibm.tgz and
>>>http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-contrib.tgz
>>>
>>>The Zimbra AjaxTK is available today in open source, and can be downloaded
>>>as part of the Zimbra Collaboration Suite (choose the source code version)
>>>at
>>>http://www.zimbra.com/community/downloads.php.  A snapshot of the AJAX
>>>toolkit code is provided at http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/Ajax.tar.gz
>>>
>>>2.1 External Dependencies of the project
>>>
>>>AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on Mozilla XULRunner and
>>>JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set of
>>>Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds four other open source components
>>>Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
>>>four open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
>>>Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as is by repackaging them as
>>>part of AJAX Toolkit Framework. In the future any AJAX toolkit that is to
>>>be supported can be included as another plugin.
>>>
>>>3. Identify the ASF resources to be created
>>>
>>>3.1 mailing list(s)
>>>
>>>    * ajaxtk-ppmc
>>>    * ajaxtk-dev
>>>    * ajaxtk-commits
>>>    * ajaxtk-user
>>>
>>>3.2 Subversion repository
>>>
>>>    * [WWW] https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/ajaxtk
>>>
>>>3.3 Bugzilla
>>>
>>>    * AJAXTK (AJAXTK)
>>>
>>>4. Identify the initial set of committers:
>>>
>>>    * Craig Becker
>>>    * Leugim Bustelo
>>>    * Andrew Clark
>>>    * Conrad Damon
>>>    * Ross Dargahi
>>>    * Becky Gibson
>>>    * Javier Pedemonte
>>>    * Adam Peller
>>>    * Roland Schemers
>>>    * Donald Sedota
>>>    * Parag Shah
>>>    * Greg Solovyev
>>>
>>>5. Identify Apache sponsoring individual
>>>
>>>We request that the Apache Incubator PMC sponsor the AJAX Toolkit Framework
>>>as an
>>>incubating project, with the eventual goal of graduation as a TLP.  The
>>>initial contributors feel the scope of the project doesn't clearly
>>>overlap with any existing TLP, and is broad enough to justify eventual
>>>TLP status.
>>>
>>>Champion:    Sam Ruby
>>>
>>>Mentors:     ??
>>>
>>>
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[Sanjiva Weerawarana]

On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 09:03 -0500, Adam Peller wrote:

Hi Adam! Haven't run into you since the early BSF days .. boy that was
like 7 years ago??! Looks like you're doing well and keeping busy ...
good!

I have some questions on the proposal:

> The AJAX Toolkit Framework will provide a strategic framework for
> Interactive Development Environments (IDEs) for the many different AJAX
> toolkit offerings in the market. It provides a rich set of tools for the
> AJAX / DHTML developer including: a JavaScript editor with edit-time syntax
> checking; Mozilla web browser; integrated DOM browser; integrated
> JavaScript debugger; and wizards and development aides tuned to specific
> libraries and toolkits.  The Framework is extensible to support other AJAX
> toolkits and has a wizard-based tool to facilitate the integration of new
> toolkits in the framework.
>
> The AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on  Mozilla XULRunner and
> JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a set of
> Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds 4 other open source components:
> Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to the
> 4 open source components specified. They are incorporated to accommodate
> Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as-is by repackaging them as
> part of the AJAX Toolkit Framework.

So this may not be an appropriate part of the discussion for deciding
whether to accept this for incubation or not but I'm concerned about
complexity. A key reason for the evolution of AJAX is that the "old way"
was too damned complicated. This proposal appears to be offering a
framework to layer over frameworks! Is that correct? If so why do you
believe that anyone other than the Zimbra toolkit (which is part of this
proposal) will in fact come and port their framework to this world.

Also, is the proposed framework intended as a client side platform? That
is, is it basically an alternative to using a browser on the client side
as a host for AJAX applications? Or is it just some kind of tooling
framework?

If its an alternate client platform, can you expand a bit on plans to
build stuff with it? (Again you can reply with "Not your damned business
as it has nothing to do with the incubation process" but I'm just
looking for more info.)

> The Zimbra AJAX Development Toolkit, the first toolkit integrated into the
> framework, provides a rich client library, similar in style to traditional
> object-oriented widget libraries like Eclipse's SWT.  This toolkit hides
> implementation details and browser quirks and makes web development more
> accessible to the enterprise developer.  It provides
>
>  * User interface development
>  * Network communications (both synchronous and asynchronous)
>  * SOAP programming
>  * XML document creation and manipulation
>  * UI event handling and management

I've looked at the Zimbra SOAP stuff (very) briefly and its pretty
primitive. Do you expect to continue to develop that into a fully
fledged SOAP infrastructure (supporting addressing, security, RM and all
that WS -* stuff) or depend on someone else?

The reason I'm asking is obvious .. I'd like you to use Axis2/C and
Axis2/Java for that part :). If the first part is about an alternate
client platform then I imagine you'd want to use Axis2/Java and plug it
into Rhino (obviously you can as-is but a more native binding would of
course be nicer). We already have the start of a Rhino provider BTW
(courtesy of Sylvain during ApacheCon!).

We've already started on a PHP binding for Axis2/C and would like to see
folks bind it to as much other stuff out there as possible. That way you
get a full function SOAP stack on the browser .. so instead of just
getting a bit of SOAP (which BTW doesn't make much sense; then one might
as well do pure XML/HTTP(S) and be happy and lighter) you get the whole
deal.

Sanjiva.


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[Sanjiva Weerawarana]

On Tue, 2005-12-20 at 18:27 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:

>
> Adam can certainly speak to the technical aspects of this than I can,
> but AJAX certainly causes one to rethink the traditional client/server
> boundary, in fact it tends to blur it.  One can pick off small pieces
> and say this definately belongs on the server, and that could ship with
> eclipse, but there are also gray area pieces that we could pick a spot
> based on our current understanding, but over time or with the inclusion
> of new members and their points of view, our understanding may shift.
> It would be advantageous if everything were licensened identically so
> that such decisions could be made on a purely technical basis, and not
> based on other considerations.

+1.

> Life is hard enough as is.

:)

> P.S.  If this isn't complicated enough, there is a third party: Mozilla
> involved.  At least there the line seems somewhat clearer.

Are they contributing code and/or committers too? Or did you mean in the
sense that the proposed project depends on XUL and its runtime? (Is that
a Java thing BTW or is there a plan to do some JNI bridge to it from
Eclipse WTP?)

Sanjiva.



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[Martin Cooper-2]

Some comments:

1) This appears to be two proposals rolled into one. One is to incubate a
JavaScript toolkit. (It's not clear to me at this point whether or not that
toolkit includes a server-side component, but that's not really relevant at
this point.) The other is to incubate a development environment that can be
used with that toolkit, or apparently with other toolkits if the necessary
work is done. The former comes from Zimbra; the latter from IBM. It's not
clear to me why this is a single proposal and not two separate ones. I
understand that there is synergy between the two, but I believe that
explicitly separating them will make each part stronger. The proposal as it
is now leaves quite a bit if doubt as to where one ends and the other
begins, begging the question of just how separate they really are, and how
"friendly" to other JavaScript toolkits.

2) Various comments have been made regarding multiple ASF projects
addressing the same area being OK, and indeed a good thing. While I
generally agree with that sentiment, there are grounds for concern when it
comes to JavaScript toolkits running in the browser. One issue is that of
footprint. As it is today, Zimbra appears to be about a 1.25MB download to
the browser, if everything is included. That is *massive* for a JavaScript
toolkit. To include that for, for example, one portlet on a portal page,
while the remaining portlets use other toolkits, and hence yet more
downloads, is expensive and slow. This may sound theoretical, but recall
that another substantial JavaScript toolkit is already on its way to the
ASF, in the form of ADF Faces from Oracle, heading for MyFaces. That project
is not (I sincerely hope) going to want to develop components that target
multiple huge JavaScript toolkits in the same library.

3) Related to the above, but from a more technical perspective, it is very
disappointing to see so much old-school JavaScript in this toolkit. For
example, the code is not namespaced, leading to greater potential for
collisions, and appears to be written more like Java code, instead of taking
advantage of the features of the JavaScript language. (This is likely a
factor in why the amount of code is so large.) The use of the Rico toolkit
is also mentioned in the proposal. That toolkit is built on Prototype, which
is popular but fragile, and will rapidly lead to problems in any non-uniform
environment, especially in portals.

4) While #3 above is technical in nature, such a code base coming to the ASF
will tend to lend credence to the way it is structured and built, as a
side-effect of the stature of the ASF. IMO, it would do the JavaScript
community a disservice to promote old-style JavaScript coding when we should
be trying to lead the way in the new world of AJAX. This, of course, doesn't
apply to the IDE part of the proposal, which I'm sure any JavaScript
developer would appreciate (as long as it works with their toolkit of
choice, which it purports to do ;).

5) Given that we have numerous open issues regarding the inclusion of
components with non-Apache licenses, I would like to see a more explicit
description of the relationship between the proposed code base and other
artifacts mentioned in the proposal, such as XULRunner, JavaConnect, Rhino,
JSLint and Rico. I know that we current have a problem with Rhino because of
the NPL. What other issues does this proposal introduce?

Personally, I am less than happy at seeing yet another large project
proposed from a corporate source (and IBM at that), along with a dozen new
committers who have not earned their merit at the ASF as most committers
have. I feel the ASF is losing its way, and becoming a repository for
corporate open-sourcing along with taking on responsibility for building
communities around corporate code bases. I suspect I'm in the minority at
the ASF, and I'm undoubtedly in the minority here in the incubator. But
there doesn't seem to be a way for the incubator to say "no thanks", other
than by a podling failing the incubation process, and that seems wrong to
me.

--
Martin Cooper


On 12/20/05, Sam Ruby <rubys@...> wrote:

>
> Kenneth Tam wrote:
> > I have a more specific question: have you guys considered separating
> > this into a plug-ins/tooling donation to Eclipse, and a runtime
> > donation to Apache?  It seems like the IP is already in a form that
> > makes this easy (ie, the AJAX Toolkit Framework Eclipse plugins from
> > IBM, and the AjaxTK Javascript library from Zimbra), and there are
> > several examples that suggest this kind of parallel community building
> > works well.
>
> I'll take this question, as well as Cliff's below.
>
> First, for starters, it is worth noting that there is Apache Licensed
> code all over the internet - SourceForge, CodeHaus, people's private
> sites, whatever.  Similarly for Eclipse plugins.
>
> Second, code licensed under the Apache license can be sublicensed and/or
> bundled/shipped with other projects.  Example: Eclipse ships Ant.
>
> Separate from the IP, the goal is to build a community, a single place
> to go to where AJAX related components can be found.  We see an
> opportunity to build such a community independent of where the
> components originated.  A community where Dojo and others would be
> welcome (but not required!) to join, or not, as they wish.
>
> Adam can certainly speak to the technical aspects of this than I can,
> but AJAX certainly causes one to rethink the traditional client/server
> boundary, in fact it tends to blur it.  One can pick off small pieces
> and say this definately belongs on the server, and that could ship with
> eclipse, but there are also gray area pieces that we could pick a spot
> based on our current understanding, but over time or with the inclusion
> of new members and their points of view, our understanding may shift.
> It would be advantageous if everything were licensened identically so
> that such decisions could be made on a purely technical basis, and not
> based on other considerations.
>
> Life is hard enough as is.
>
>   - - -
>
> Could we develop this at the ASF with the Eclipse license?  The answer
> would be no.  Could we develop this at Eclipse with the Apache
> license... I'll let Eclipse answer that.
>
> Could we develop this at the ASF, with the Apache license, and let
> Eclipse sublicense and/or bundle and ship any or all of this?  That
> question I can answer: yes!  And the hope would be that this could serve
> as the basis for some cross fertilization and teamwork between the two
> larger organizations.
>
>   - - -
>
> Now to directly Cliff's question: yes, we considered proposing this to
> Eclipse.  And we talked with a number of people there.  And surprisingly
> enough - we thought those discussions were settled but they seem to have
> sprung back up again after Adam sent in the proposal.
>
> We will pursue those discussions to their completion.
>
> Suffice it to say that Eclipse folks are following this mailing list.  I
> invite them to share their thoughts here.
>
>   - - -
>
> My recommendation is that we focus on concrete proposals, and code
> bases.  If people would like to suggest specific additions or removals
> from the proposal, lets hear it.  The proposal as it stands is to build
> a unified, vibrant, and diverse community around code licensed under the
> Apache License, version 2.0.  And here seems like a good place to make
> that happen.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> P.S.  If this isn't complicated enough, there is a third party: Mozilla
> involved.  At least there the line seems somewhat clearer.
>
> > On 12/20/05, Cliff Schmidt <cliffschmidt@...> wrote:
> >
> >>Adam,
> >>
> >>Can you tell me if you considered proposing this to the Eclipse
> Foundation?
> >>
> >>Since this project appears to have far stronger dependencies on
> >>Eclipse Foundation projects rather than anything from Apache, can you
> >>tell me why you think bringing this project here is likely to help you
> >>build a stronger community than you would find at Eclipse?  Is there
> >>some other overriding reason you prefer to bring this project to
> >>Apache?
> >>
> >>Cliff
> >>
> >>
> >>On 12/20/05, Adam Peller <apeller@...> wrote:
> >>
> >>>AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal
> >>>
> >>>0.  Rationale
> >>>
> >>>While the term AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML) has only recently
> >>>been coined, the underlying web standards and technologies (JavaScript
> >>>a.k.a. ECMAScript, DOM, XML, SOAP, and so on) have been around for
> years.
> >>>Although the term is used in a variety of ways, AJAX typically
> describes
> >>>techniques towards developing interactive applications on the web
> client
> >>>including asynchronous messaging, use of XML grammar in client-side
> >>>applications, incremental page updates, and improved user interface
> >>>controls. AJAX applications combine the rich UI experience of
> programmed
> >>>clients with the low-cost lifecycle management of web-based
> applications.
> >>>
> >>>AJAX has raised awareness of the high potential of web applications, it
> has
> >>>encouraged companies to adopt rich web-based interfaces over
> traditional
> >>>"fat" clients, and it has spawned development activity to create
> toolkits
> >>>and abstractions to make AJAX-style development easier and more
> powerful.
> >>>This is an important trend for open source.  The client itself can be
> >>>composed entirely of open-source parts, such as Mozilla's Firefox or
> KDE's
> >>>Konqueror, and does not require any particular operating system,
> helping to
> >>>make a more level playing field for all development.  More importantly,
> >>>AJAX is back-end agnostic as transactions are done over HTTP.  Keeping
> the
> >>>client open forces vendors to keep the communication channel open as
> well,
> >>>and this can only continue as long as the client technology keeps pace
> with
> >>>proprietary alternatives.  The open, standards based communications
> channel
> >>>is what drives many technologies inside Apache, so success of the open
> >>>client is vital to Apache.  The mission of this project is to encourage
> >>>innovation around enterprise-strength client runtimes and tools and
> build a
> >>>community which can select and nurture a select set which will be most
> >>>beneficial to the web.
> >>>
> >>>0.1 Criteria
> >>>
> >>>Meritocracy:
> >>>
> >>>Apache was chosen for an incubator primarily because of the guidance
> the
> >>>community can provide.  The two subprojects put forth are among the
> first
> >>>attempts to formalize this style of development.  Additional ideas,
> tools
> >>>or entire runtimes may come forward and indeed would be welcomed to the
> >>>project, either wholesale as new subprojects or incorporated into the
> >>>existing code.
> >>>
> >>>Community:
> >>>
> >>>The contributed work was inspired by open source development but needs
> a
> >>>strong and diverse community to validate its mission and carry it
> forward.
> >>>A primary objective of the project is to build a vibrant community of
> users
> >>>and active contributors.
> >>>
> >>>Core Developers:
> >>>
> >>>All of the initial committers are members of Zimbra and IBM development
> >>>teams.  All developers have worked on open source projects before and
> have
> >>>experience and understanding of open source principles.
> >>>
> >>>Alignment:
> >>>
> >>>Initial implementation consists of two sub projects.
> >>>
> >>>The AJAX Toolkit Framework will provide a strategic framework for
> >>>Interactive Development Environments (IDEs) for the many different AJAX
> >>>toolkit offerings in the market. It provides a rich set of tools for
> the
> >>>AJAX / DHTML developer including: a JavaScript editor with edit-time
> syntax
> >>>checking; Mozilla web browser; integrated DOM browser; integrated
> >>>JavaScript debugger; and wizards and development aides tuned to
> specific
> >>>libraries and toolkits.  The Framework is extensible to support other
> AJAX
> >>>toolkits and has a wizard-based tool to facilitate the integration of
> new
> >>>toolkits in the framework.
> >>>
> >>>The AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on  Mozilla XULRunner and
> >>>JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a
> set of
> >>>Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds 4 other open source components:
> >>>Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to
> the
> >>>4 open source components specified. They are incorporated to
> accommodate
> >>>Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as-is by repackaging them
> as
> >>>part of the AJAX Toolkit Framework.
> >>>
> >>>The Zimbra AJAX Development Toolkit, the first toolkit integrated into
> the
> >>>framework, provides a rich client library, similar in style to
> traditional
> >>>object-oriented widget libraries like Eclipse's SWT.  This toolkit
> hides
> >>>implementation details and browser quirks and makes web development
> more
> >>>accessible to the enterprise developer.  It provides
> >>>
> >>> * User interface development
> >>> * Network communications (both synchronous and asynchronous)
> >>> * SOAP programming
> >>> * XML document creation and manipulation
> >>> * UI event handling and management
> >>>
> >>>For further information, please see the Zimbra AjaxTK whitepaper:
> >>>http://www.zimbra.com/pdf/Zimbra%20AJAX%20TK%20Whitepaper.pdf
> >>>
> >>>0.2  Warning signs
> >>>
> >>>Orphaned products:
> >>>
> >>>The initial code submission is based on colloborative work between IBM
> and
> >>>Zimbra to provide a toolkit and a framework to embed the toolkit in IDE
> >>>environment and provide additional enhancements. Both the companies
> believe
> >>>that taking a joint approach and making it available through open
> source
> >>>will make it widely accepted and create a community and unify Industry
> >>>momentum to consolidate requirements and accelerate community growth
> and
> >>>enhance the toolkit to ease development of AJAX applications.
> >>>
> >>>Inexperience with open source:
> >>>
> >>>Both the companies and several of the commiters are very experienced in
> >>>Open Source environment. All efforts will be made to ensure that the
> work
> >>>done and momentum will be in strict adherence to open source
> guidelines.
> >>>
> >>>Homogenous developers:
> >>>
> >>>The current list of committers includes developers who are
> geographically
> >>>distributed.  They are experienced with working in a distributed
> >>>environment, and with resolving technical differences.
> >>>
> >>>Reliance on salaried developers:
> >>>
> >>>All of the initial developers are paid by their employers to contribute
> to
> >>>this project and the employers track records for ongoing investment in
> open
> >>>source communities well known.
> >>>
> >>>No ties to other Apache products:
> >>>
> >>>The initial codebase will be licensed under the Apache License 2.0.The
> >>>dependencies on other external projects are defined in the alignment
> >>>section.  While there are no direct build dependencies on other Apache
> >>>projects, the development of AJAX clients will often be driven by
> Apache
> >>>middleware and will have a positive impact on the open source movement
> as
> >>>described in the "Rationale" section.
> >>>
> >>>A fascination with the Apache brand:
> >>>
> >>>The committers are intent on developing a strong open source community.
> We
> >>>believe that the Apache Software Foundation's emphasis on community
> >>>development makes it the most suitable choice.
> >>>
> >>>1. Scope of the subprojects
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>The subprojects will include development tools necessary to encourage
> >>>browser-based, AJAX-style development for individual users as well as
> in
> >>>the enterprise.  The tools will be driven by an extensible IDE
> Framework
> >>>and may include utilities to assist in code development, analysis, and
> >>>testing.  The tools will be adaptable to different AJAX runtimes, some
> of
> >>>which will also be subprojects in the incubator.  The initial
> submission
> >>>includes an IDE and one such runtime.
> >>>
> >>>These initial projects are intended merely as starting points and
> should
> >>>not be taken as bounding the scope of the project as a whole. Some
> other
> >>>potential projects may include:
> >>>
> >>> * WYSIWYG tools for building AJAX-style interfaces
> >>> * Declarative grammars or abstractions for AJAX programming
> >>> * A common data model to facilitate efficient server communication
> with
> >>>Javascript or DOM access
> >>>
> >>>2. Identify the initial source from which the subprojects are to be
> >>>populated
> >>>
> >>>AJAX Toolkit Framework was developed at IBM as a set of plugins based
> on
> >>>the Eclipse Framework and WebTools Project.  Zip files containing
> snapshots
> >>>of CVS directories are provided with this proposal at
> >>>http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-ibm.tgz and
> >>>http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/ajaxtk-framework-contrib.tgz
> >>>
> >>>The Zimbra AjaxTK is available today in open source, and can be
> downloaded
> >>>as part of the Zimbra Collaboration Suite (choose the source code
> version)
> >>>at
> >>>http://www.zimbra.com/community/downloads.php.  A snapshot of the AJAX
> >>>toolkit code is provided at
> http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/Ajax.tar.gz
> >>>
> >>>2.1 External Dependencies of the project
> >>>
> >>>AJAX Toolkit Framework has dependencies on Mozilla XULRunner and
> >>>JavaConnect, and Eclipse WTP. AJAX Toolkit Framework is written as a
> set of
> >>>Plugin extensions to Eclipse. It embeds four other open source
> components
> >>>Rhino, JSLint, Rico and Zimbra.  No code modifications will be made to
> the
> >>>four open source components specified. They are incorporated to
> accommodate
> >>>Eclipse plugin architecture and distributed as is by repackaging them
> as
> >>>part of AJAX Toolkit Framework. In the future any AJAX toolkit that is
> to
> >>>be supported can be included as another plugin.
> >>>
> >>>3. Identify the ASF resources to be created
> >>>
> >>>3.1 mailing list(s)
> >>>
> >>>    * ajaxtk-ppmc
> >>>    * ajaxtk-dev
> >>>    * ajaxtk-commits
> >>>    * ajaxtk-user
> >>>
> >>>3.2 Subversion repository
> >>>
> >>>    * [WWW] https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/ajaxtk
> >>>
> >>>3.3 Bugzilla
> >>>
> >>>    * AJAXTK (AJAXTK)
> >>>
> >>>4. Identify the initial set of committers:
> >>>
> >>>    * Craig Becker
> >>>    * Leugim Bustelo
> >>>    * Andrew Clark
> >>>    * Conrad Damon
> >>>    * Ross Dargahi
> >>>    * Becky Gibson
> >>>    * Javier Pedemonte
> >>>    * Adam Peller
> >>>    * Roland Schemers
> >>>    * Donald Sedota
> >>>    * Parag Shah
> >>>    * Greg Solovyev
> >>>
> >>>5. Identify Apache sponsoring individual
> >>>
> >>>We request that the Apache Incubator PMC sponsor the AJAX Toolkit
> Framework
> >>>as an
> >>>incubating project, with the eventual goal of graduation as a TLP.  The
> >>>initial contributors feel the scope of the project doesn't clearly
> >>>overlap with any existing TLP, and is broad enough to justify eventual
> >>>TLP status.
> >>>
> >>>Champion:    Sam Ruby
> >>>
> >>>Mentors:     ??
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
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[Leo Simons]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 04:14:22PM +0100, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> I'm quite puzzled by this proposal. As I understand it, its mainly about
> a set of Eclipse plugins for Ajax applications and the Zimbra library
> that, among other features, provides a set of SWT-like widgets.

How is that puzzling?

> Also, this proposal pops up right after I mention on members@ that
> several projects at Apache are using or plan to use Dojo [1] and that we
> talked about inviting them. I sincerely hope this is just a coincidence.

Why? Even though it seems to be (and is likely to be since the proposal
looks like it took some preparing), why would lack of coincidence between
these events neccessarily be bad? If Sam were to have mentioned to the
guys working on this proposal something along the lines of "dudes. Several
ASF peeps seem to be getting more interested in AJAX stuff. You should
hurry up a bit with that proposal of yours" that would've pretty much made
sense to me. Note: Sam specifically said he did not say something like that
at all.

> So the questions are:
> - is the ASF the place for Eclipse extensions? I don't deny the ability
> to _existing_ project to host their tooling, but this isn't the case here.

IMHO that's a very valid question to which the current answer from the
incubator is "yes, if there's sufficient interest from existing ASF
members" with "sufficient" somewhat under discussion. I'll suggest that
changing the answer to that question should be tackled independently of
this proposal.

IANAL. But from talking with Cliff at AC it seems there's not neccessarily
a licensing barrier either.

> - why incubate an Ajax library that none of the current ASF projects
> uses nor plans to use, unless I missed something?

for all the usual reasons. "ties with existing ASF projects" is a question
we sometimes ask but the rationale for even asking the question has never
been written down in an email before (I think). I think what you're "missing"
is 2 years of history in how we're doing incubation (which often involves
"stuff that no existing ASF project uses or plans to use" when incubation
started, like, ehm, Harmony, or Geronimo, or SpamAssassin, or ...)

(...)

I personally feel that wanting to draw projects into the ASF *just* because
other ASF projects want to use that stuff is Pretty Bad(tm). It should be
easy and accepted and encouraged for ASF projects to use stuff that lives
and breathes outside of the ASF if you ask me.

(...)

Hmm. I think your email is more puzzling to me than the original proposal :-)
(A heavyweight java-based IDE for doing what's essentially designed as
"lightweight" stuff...it seems easier to just fix the embed-java-in-the-
browser problem, like Stefano is doing with Piggy Bank...oh well...)

- LSD


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[Mike Milinkovich]

> -----Original Message-----
> Now to directly Cliff's question: yes, we considered
> proposing this to Eclipse.  And we talked with a number of
> people there.  And surprisingly enough - we thought those
> discussions were settled but they seem to have sprung back up
> again after Adam sent in the proposal.

Sam,

This is absolutely incorrect. If you were surprised, you were misinformed.
(I appreciate that you were not directly engaged with Eclipse prior to this
proposal being made public.)

But we categorically deny the assertion that discussions were settled or
that this proposal was anything other than a complete and unpleasant
surprise to Eclipse.

The last talk we had with IBM concerning this project was on October 20th
and was to the affect that the runtime components would go to Apache and the
tools components would go to Eclipse. Runtime at Apache, tools at Eclipse. A
pattern we have all seen executed succesfully before.

An email from me to IBM regarding the status of this proposal dated Dec.
15th went unanswered until 6:15 ET this evening, after this proposal was
launched at Apache, and this conversation on the mailing list ensued.

What or who made you think discussions were "settled"?

Mike Milinkovich
Executive Director,
Eclipse Foundation, Inc.


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[Sam Ruby-2]

Mike Milinkovich wrote:

[snip]

> (I appreciate that you were not directly engaged with Eclipse prior to this
> proposal being made public.)

[snip]

> The last talk we had with IBM concerning this project was on October 20th

First, thank you very much for posting posting here.  I'm confident that
together we can work through this.  Apparently, neither of us have a
complete history.

Meanwhile:

There is some code posted at http://people.apache.org/~rubys/ajax/

There is a proposal posted at http://tinyurl.com/9ctml

I posted why I believe that a single cohesive community centered around
a codebase with a single, liberal, sub-licenseable license would be a
good thing.

At least one ASF member has +1'ed that reasoning.

Care to make an equally concrete proposal?

In particular, why would taking Solomon's advice and dividing the child
in half be benefitial to anybody?

- Sam Ruby

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[Mike Milinkovich]

> Hmm. I think your email is more puzzling to me than the
> original proposal :-) (A heavyweight java-based IDE for doing
> what's essentially designed as "lightweight" stuff...

Leo,

It seems that your understanding of the Eclipse platform needs some
updating. The Java IDE is definitely what we're best known for. But
underneath that IDE there beats the heart of a lightweight, OSGi-compliant
component system.

It's rather like saying what the heck is the Apache web server doing with a
JVM project? Similar to Apache, at Eclipse there is the original namesake
project, which has matured to a community with a significant number (50++)
of different projects.


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[Mike Milinkovich]

> In particular, why would taking Solomon's advice and dividing
> the child in half be benefitial (sic) to anybody?

Interesting question. So your assertion is that all open source code should
be done at Apache and there are no reasonable scenarios in which another
open source community can or should attempt to co-operate with Apache?

I would point out that the "runtime at Apache and tools at Eclipse" is not a
new scenario. It has been repeated numerous times with great success for
both our communities and their mutual consumers.

Solomon has decided many times in the past. With a strikingly different
conclusion than what you are proposing here.


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