ASIN Clarification

[Christopher Key]

Hello,

I'm hoping to get some clarification on the exact requirements for
making an ASIN suitable to link to.

Quite a lot of releases, especially singles, are only available second
hand through third party sellers, and the data on their Amazon page is
often quite lacking, with no official cover art, or no art at all, and
occasionally no tracklisting.  I do however feel that linking to such
releases does provide useful information.

Firstly, if someone is attempting to acquire a specific release, the
lack of information from Amazon may well make this very difficult.  A
correct tracklisting / Catalog # / barcode from MusicBrainz pointing to
a specific ASIN would be very useful.

Secondly, whilst no coverart may be available via AWS, end users can
still acquire coverart directly, or via some suitable scripted method.
Moreover, Amazon may in the future add official coverart, and this would
then automatically become available to MusicBrainz.

Finally, it provides a useful replacement for the large number of
incorrect ASINs currently in the system.  There are a lot of cases where
a set of identically titled albums (with different tracklistings) have
all been attached to the same ASIN.  My concern is that should these
simply be removed, they will end up getting reattached by users wanting
coverart.

Obviously some care needs to be taken to ensure correct data.  Simply
having bought a item with a given ASIN from a 3rd party seller perhaps
isn't sufficient.  However, AWS does allow UPC lookups, and I guess that
this probably is sufficient.  The second problem is that MusicBrainz
assumes that the presence of an ASIN means that cover art is available,
and ends up displaying an ugly box in cases where it isn't.  I guess
this should however be a relatively easy fix.

Any feedback / clarification would be nuch appreciated.

Regards,

Christopher Key


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[Paul C. Bryan]

Hi Christopher:

As far as I know, an ASIN is valid to link to, as long as it correctly
represents the release in MB. Some are better than others; ASIN w. cover
art is currently preferable (per guidelines) over ASIN without.

Personally, I think all ASINs for a release, be it vinyl, cassette, CD,
SACD, whatever should ideally be linked, but the practice is not to link
to all, so that we get the benefits of Amazon official cover art. In the
future, when MB's ASIN/cover art handling is refined, hopefully we can
do so.

Paul

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 11:06 +0100, Christopher Key wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm hoping to get some clarification on the exact requirements for
> making an ASIN suitable to link to.
>
> Quite a lot of releases, especially singles, are only available second
> hand through third party sellers, and the data on their Amazon page is
> often quite lacking, with no official cover art, or no art at all, and
> occasionally no tracklisting.  I do however feel that linking to such
> releases does provide useful information.
>
> Firstly, if someone is attempting to acquire a specific release, the
> lack of information from Amazon may well make this very difficult.  A
> correct tracklisting / Catalog # / barcode from MusicBrainz pointing to
> a specific ASIN would be very useful.
>
> Secondly, whilst no coverart may be available via AWS, end users can
> still acquire coverart directly, or via some suitable scripted method.
> Moreover, Amazon may in the future add official coverart, and this would
> then automatically become available to MusicBrainz.
>
> Finally, it provides a useful replacement for the large number of
> incorrect ASINs currently in the system.  There are a lot of cases where
> a set of identically titled albums (with different tracklistings) have
> all been attached to the same ASIN.  My concern is that should these
> simply be removed, they will end up getting reattached by users wanting
> coverart.
>
> Obviously some care needs to be taken to ensure correct data.  Simply
> having bought a item with a given ASIN from a 3rd party seller perhaps
> isn't sufficient.  However, AWS does allow UPC lookups, and I guess that
> this probably is sufficient.  The second problem is that MusicBrainz
> assumes that the presence of an ASIN means that cover art is available,
> and ends up displaying an ugly box in cases where it isn't.  I guess
> this should however be a relatively easy fix.
>
> Any feedback / clarification would be nuch appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Christopher Key
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

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[Paul Jarvis-2]

I disagree, all ASINs are valid (be it vinyl, cassette, CD, mp3)
provided they match the release (usually the barcode is the best way to
confirm this).  Obviously if there is no official Amazon listing then
there shouldn't be an ASIN, it's the same as with any other AR in the
database.  Personally, I believe cover art is fairly irrelevant to the
overall ASIN picture, and should be seen merely as an added benefit, not
the primary reason for adding them to releases.

Paul C. Bryan wrote:

> Hi Christopher:
>
> As far as I know, an ASIN is valid to link to, as long as it correctly
> represents the release in MB. Some are better than others; ASIN w. cover
> art is currently preferable (per guidelines) over ASIN without.
>
> Personally, I think all ASINs for a release, be it vinyl, cassette, CD,
> SACD, whatever should ideally be linked, but the practice is not to link
> to all, so that we get the benefits of Amazon official cover art. In the
> future, when MB's ASIN/cover art handling is refined, hopefully we can
> do so.
>
> Paul
>
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 11:06 +0100, Christopher Key wrote:
>  
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm hoping to get some clarification on the exact requirements for
>> making an ASIN suitable to link to.
>>
>> Quite a lot of releases, especially singles, are only available second
>> hand through third party sellers, and the data on their Amazon page is
>> often quite lacking, with no official cover art, or no art at all, and
>> occasionally no tracklisting.  I do however feel that linking to such
>> releases does provide useful information.
>>
>> Firstly, if someone is attempting to acquire a specific release, the
>> lack of information from Amazon may well make this very difficult.  A
>> correct tracklisting / Catalog # / barcode from MusicBrainz pointing to
>> a specific ASIN would be very useful.
>>
>> Secondly, whilst no coverart may be available via AWS, end users can
>> still acquire coverart directly, or via some suitable scripted method.
>> Moreover, Amazon may in the future add official coverart, and this would
>> then automatically become available to MusicBrainz.
>>
>> Finally, it provides a useful replacement for the large number of
>> incorrect ASINs currently in the system.  There are a lot of cases where
>> a set of identically titled albums (with different tracklistings) have
>> all been attached to the same ASIN.  My concern is that should these
>> simply be removed, they will end up getting reattached by users wanting
>> coverart.
>>
>> Obviously some care needs to be taken to ensure correct data.  Simply
>> having bought a item with a given ASIN from a 3rd party seller perhaps
>> isn't sufficient.  However, AWS does allow UPC lookups, and I guess that
>> this probably is sufficient.  The second problem is that MusicBrainz
>> assumes that the presence of an ASIN means that cover art is available,
>> and ends up displaying an ugly box in cases where it isn't.  I guess
>> this should however be a relatively easy fix.
>>
>> Any feedback / clarification would be nuch appreciated.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Christopher Key
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>> MusicBrainz-users@...
>> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>>    
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>
>
>  

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[Paul C. Bryan]

You disagree with my point that it's currently the practice, or you
disagree with the practice itself?

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 21:31 +0100, Paul Jarvis wrote:

> I disagree, all ASINs are valid (be it vinyl, cassette, CD, mp3)
> provided they match the release (usually the barcode is the best way to
> confirm this).  Obviously if there is no official Amazon listing then
> there shouldn't be an ASIN, it's the same as with any other AR in the
> database.  Personally, I believe cover art is fairly irrelevant to the
> overall ASIN picture, and should be seen merely as an added benefit, not
> the primary reason for adding them to releases.
>
> Paul C. Bryan wrote:
> > Hi Christopher:
> >
> > As far as I know, an ASIN is valid to link to, as long as it correctly
> > represents the release in MB. Some are better than others; ASIN w. cover
> > art is currently preferable (per guidelines) over ASIN without.
> >
> > Personally, I think all ASINs for a release, be it vinyl, cassette, CD,
> > SACD, whatever should ideally be linked, but the practice is not to link
> > to all, so that we get the benefits of Amazon official cover art. In the
> > future, when MB's ASIN/cover art handling is refined, hopefully we can
> > do so.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 11:06 +0100, Christopher Key wrote:
> >  
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I'm hoping to get some clarification on the exact requirements for
> >> making an ASIN suitable to link to.
> >>
> >> Quite a lot of releases, especially singles, are only available second
> >> hand through third party sellers, and the data on their Amazon page is
> >> often quite lacking, with no official cover art, or no art at all, and
> >> occasionally no tracklisting.  I do however feel that linking to such
> >> releases does provide useful information.
> >>
> >> Firstly, if someone is attempting to acquire a specific release, the
> >> lack of information from Amazon may well make this very difficult.  A
> >> correct tracklisting / Catalog # / barcode from MusicBrainz pointing to
> >> a specific ASIN would be very useful.
> >>
> >> Secondly, whilst no coverart may be available via AWS, end users can
> >> still acquire coverart directly, or via some suitable scripted method.
> >> Moreover, Amazon may in the future add official coverart, and this would
> >> then automatically become available to MusicBrainz.
> >>
> >> Finally, it provides a useful replacement for the large number of
> >> incorrect ASINs currently in the system.  There are a lot of cases where
> >> a set of identically titled albums (with different tracklistings) have
> >> all been attached to the same ASIN.  My concern is that should these
> >> simply be removed, they will end up getting reattached by users wanting
> >> coverart.
> >>
> >> Obviously some care needs to be taken to ensure correct data.  Simply
> >> having bought a item with a given ASIN from a 3rd party seller perhaps
> >> isn't sufficient.  However, AWS does allow UPC lookups, and I guess that
> >> this probably is sufficient.  The second problem is that MusicBrainz
> >> assumes that the presence of an ASIN means that cover art is available,
> >> and ends up displaying an ugly box in cases where it isn't.  I guess
> >> this should however be a relatively easy fix.
> >>
> >> Any feedback / clarification would be nuch appreciated.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Christopher Key
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> >> MusicBrainz-users@...
> >> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
> >>    
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> > MusicBrainz-users@...
> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
> >
> >
> >  
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users

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[Aaron Cooper-3]

I for one add every valid ASIN I find since the guidelines make no
mention that this is undesired.

-cooperaa

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Paul C. Bryan <email@...> wrote:

> You disagree with my point that it's currently the practice, or you
> disagree with the practice itself?
>
> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 21:31 +0100, Paul Jarvis wrote:
>> I disagree, all ASINs are valid (be it vinyl, cassette, CD, mp3)
>> provided they match the release (usually the barcode is the best way to
>> confirm this).  Obviously if there is no official Amazon listing then
>> there shouldn't be an ASIN, it's the same as with any other AR in the
>> database.  Personally, I believe cover art is fairly irrelevant to the
>> overall ASIN picture, and should be seen merely as an added benefit, not
>> the primary reason for adding them to releases.
>>
>> Paul C. Bryan wrote:
>> > Hi Christopher:
>> >
>> > As far as I know, an ASIN is valid to link to, as long as it correctly
>> > represents the release in MB. Some are better than others; ASIN w. cover
>> > art is currently preferable (per guidelines) over ASIN without.
>> >
>> > Personally, I think all ASINs for a release, be it vinyl, cassette, CD,
>> > SACD, whatever should ideally be linked, but the practice is not to link
>> > to all, so that we get the benefits of Amazon official cover art. In the
>> > future, when MB's ASIN/cover art handling is refined, hopefully we can
>> > do so.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 11:06 +0100, Christopher Key wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> I'm hoping to get some clarification on the exact requirements for
>> >> making an ASIN suitable to link to.
>> >>
>> >> Quite a lot of releases, especially singles, are only available second
>> >> hand through third party sellers, and the data on their Amazon page is
>> >> often quite lacking, with no official cover art, or no art at all, and
>> >> occasionally no tracklisting.  I do however feel that linking to such
>> >> releases does provide useful information.
>> >>
>> >> Firstly, if someone is attempting to acquire a specific release, the
>> >> lack of information from Amazon may well make this very difficult.  A
>> >> correct tracklisting / Catalog # / barcode from MusicBrainz pointing to
>> >> a specific ASIN would be very useful.
>> >>
>> >> Secondly, whilst no coverart may be available via AWS, end users can
>> >> still acquire coverart directly, or via some suitable scripted method.
>> >> Moreover, Amazon may in the future add official coverart, and this would
>> >> then automatically become available to MusicBrainz.
>> >>
>> >> Finally, it provides a useful replacement for the large number of
>> >> incorrect ASINs currently in the system.  There are a lot of cases where
>> >> a set of identically titled albums (with different tracklistings) have
>> >> all been attached to the same ASIN.  My concern is that should these
>> >> simply be removed, they will end up getting reattached by users wanting
>> >> coverart.
>> >>
>> >> Obviously some care needs to be taken to ensure correct data.  Simply
>> >> having bought a item with a given ASIN from a 3rd party seller perhaps
>> >> isn't sufficient.  However, AWS does allow UPC lookups, and I guess that
>> >> this probably is sufficient.  The second problem is that MusicBrainz
>> >> assumes that the presence of an ASIN means that cover art is available,
>> >> and ends up displaying an ugly box in cases where it isn't.  I guess
>> >> this should however be a relatively easy fix.
>> >>
>> >> Any feedback / clarification would be nuch appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Christopher Key
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>> >> MusicBrainz-users@...
>> >> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>> > MusicBrainz-users@...
>> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>> MusicBrainz-users@...
>> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>

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[gnu_andrew]

2009/4/20 Aaron Cooper <cooperaa@...>:

> I for one add every valid ASIN I find since the guidelines make no
> mention that this is undesired.
>
> -cooperaa
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Paul C. Bryan <email@...> wrote:
>> You disagree with my point that it's currently the practice, or you
>> disagree with the practice itself?
>>
>> On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 21:31 +0100, Paul Jarvis wrote:
>>> I disagree, all ASINs are valid (be it vinyl, cassette, CD, mp3)
>>> provided they match the release (usually the barcode is the best way to
>>> confirm this).  Obviously if there is no official Amazon listing then
>>> there shouldn't be an ASIN, it's the same as with any other AR in the
>>> database.  Personally, I believe cover art is fairly irrelevant to the
>>> overall ASIN picture, and should be seen merely as an added benefit, not
>>> the primary reason for adding them to releases.
>>>
>>> Paul C. Bryan wrote:
>>> > Hi Christopher:
>>> >
>>> > As far as I know, an ASIN is valid to link to, as long as it correctly
>>> > represents the release in MB. Some are better than others; ASIN w. cover
>>> > art is currently preferable (per guidelines) over ASIN without.
>>> >
>>> > Personally, I think all ASINs for a release, be it vinyl, cassette, CD,
>>> > SACD, whatever should ideally be linked, but the practice is not to link
>>> > to all, so that we get the benefits of Amazon official cover art. In the
>>> > future, when MB's ASIN/cover art handling is refined, hopefully we can
>>> > do so.
>>> >
>>> > Paul
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 11:06 +0100, Christopher Key wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Hello,
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm hoping to get some clarification on the exact requirements for
>>> >> making an ASIN suitable to link to.
>>> >>
>>> >> Quite a lot of releases, especially singles, are only available second
>>> >> hand through third party sellers, and the data on their Amazon page is
>>> >> often quite lacking, with no official cover art, or no art at all, and
>>> >> occasionally no tracklisting.  I do however feel that linking to such
>>> >> releases does provide useful information.
>>> >>
>>> >> Firstly, if someone is attempting to acquire a specific release, the
>>> >> lack of information from Amazon may well make this very difficult.  A
>>> >> correct tracklisting / Catalog # / barcode from MusicBrainz pointing to
>>> >> a specific ASIN would be very useful.
>>> >>
>>> >> Secondly, whilst no coverart may be available via AWS, end users can
>>> >> still acquire coverart directly, or via some suitable scripted method.
>>> >> Moreover, Amazon may in the future add official coverart, and this would
>>> >> then automatically become available to MusicBrainz.
>>> >>
>>> >> Finally, it provides a useful replacement for the large number of
>>> >> incorrect ASINs currently in the system.  There are a lot of cases where
>>> >> a set of identically titled albums (with different tracklistings) have
>>> >> all been attached to the same ASIN.  My concern is that should these
>>> >> simply be removed, they will end up getting reattached by users wanting
>>> >> coverart.
>>> >>
>>> >> Obviously some care needs to be taken to ensure correct data.  Simply
>>> >> having bought a item with a given ASIN from a 3rd party seller perhaps
>>> >> isn't sufficient.  However, AWS does allow UPC lookups, and I guess that
>>> >> this probably is sufficient.  The second problem is that MusicBrainz
>>> >> assumes that the presence of an ASIN means that cover art is available,
>>> >> and ends up displaying an ugly box in cases where it isn't.  I guess
>>> >> this should however be a relatively easy fix.
>>> >>
>>> >> Any feedback / clarification would be nuch appreciated.
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards,
>>> >>
>>> >> Christopher Key
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>>> >> MusicBrainz-users@...
>>> >> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>>> > MusicBrainz-users@...
>>> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>>> MusicBrainz-users@...
>>> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
>> MusicBrainz-users@...
>> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> MusicBrainz-users@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
>

http://musicbrainz.org/doc/HowToChangeCoverArt

'Also make sure you don't add URLs to products that are only sold by
custom sellers (those that don't have an Amazon price). '

Still valid today or not?
--
Andrew :-)

Free Java Software Engineer
Red Hat, Inc. (http://www.redhat.com)

Support Free Java!
Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK
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[Pavan Chander]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Andrew John Hughes <gnu_andrew@...> wrote:

http://musicbrainz.org/doc/HowToChangeCoverArt

'Also make sure you don't add URLs to products that are only sold by
custom sellers (those that don't have an Amazon price). '

Still valid today or not?
 

I don't think it does/should apply; that line seems to have been added before we used MoinMoin, so the history regarding that line doesn't exist, but it looks like someone's opinion because it doesn't appear on the "official" page for the AR.

http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/AmazonRelationshipType

Pavan Chander // navap

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[Paul C. Bryan]

According to http://musicbrainz.org/doc/AmazonRelationshipType:

"Before you add a relationship to such an ASIN, please make sure that no
offical [sic] product page exists on another amazon domain, and that the
page actually contains any information that is worth adding."

I've been following this suggestion. Can I stop and feel free to add any
valid ASIN?

Paul

On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 17:16 -0400, Aaron Cooper wrote:

> I for one add every valid ASIN I find since the guidelines make no
> mention that this is undesired.
>
> -cooperaa
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Paul C. Bryan <email@...> wrote:
> > You disagree with my point that it's currently the practice, or you
> > disagree with the practice itself?
> >
> > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 21:31 +0100, Paul Jarvis wrote:
> >> I disagree, all ASINs are valid (be it vinyl, cassette, CD, mp3)
> >> provided they match the release (usually the barcode is the best way to
> >> confirm this).  Obviously if there is no official Amazon listing then
> >> there shouldn't be an ASIN, it's the same as with any other AR in the
> >> database.  Personally, I believe cover art is fairly irrelevant to the
> >> overall ASIN picture, and should be seen merely as an added benefit, not
> >> the primary reason for adding them to releases.
> >>
> >> Paul C. Bryan wrote:
> >> > Hi Christopher:
> >> >
> >> > As far as I know, an ASIN is valid to link to, as long as it correctly
> >> > represents the release in MB. Some are better than others; ASIN w. cover
> >> > art is currently preferable (per guidelines) over ASIN without.
> >> >
> >> > Personally, I think all ASINs for a release, be it vinyl, cassette, CD,
> >> > SACD, whatever should ideally be linked, but the practice is not to link
> >> > to all, so that we get the benefits of Amazon official cover art. In the
> >> > future, when MB's ASIN/cover art handling is refined, hopefully we can
> >> > do so.
> >> >
> >> > Paul
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, 2009-04-20 at 11:06 +0100, Christopher Key wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hello,
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm hoping to get some clarification on the exact requirements for
> >> >> making an ASIN suitable to link to.
> >> >>
> >> >> Quite a lot of releases, especially singles, are only available second
> >> >> hand through third party sellers, and the data on their Amazon page is
> >> >> often quite lacking, with no official cover art, or no art at all, and
> >> >> occasionally no tracklisting.  I do however feel that linking to such
> >> >> releases does provide useful information.
> >> >>
> >> >> Firstly, if someone is attempting to acquire a specific release, the
> >> >> lack of information from Amazon may well make this very difficult.  A
> >> >> correct tracklisting / Catalog # / barcode from MusicBrainz pointing to
> >> >> a specific ASIN would be very useful.
> >> >>
> >> >> Secondly, whilst no coverart may be available via AWS, end users can
> >> >> still acquire coverart directly, or via some suitable scripted method.
> >> >> Moreover, Amazon may in the future add official coverart, and this would
> >> >> then automatically become available to MusicBrainz.
> >> >>
> >> >> Finally, it provides a useful replacement for the large number of
> >> >> incorrect ASINs currently in the system.  There are a lot of cases where
> >> >> a set of identically titled albums (with different tracklistings) have
> >> >> all been attached to the same ASIN.  My concern is that should these
> >> >> simply be removed, they will end up getting reattached by users wanting
> >> >> coverart.
> >> >>
> >> >> Obviously some care needs to be taken to ensure correct data.  Simply
> >> >> having bought a item with a given ASIN from a 3rd party seller perhaps
> >> >> isn't sufficient.  However, AWS does allow UPC lookups, and I guess that
> >> >> this probably is sufficient.  The second problem is that MusicBrainz
> >> >> assumes that the presence of an ASIN means that cover art is available,
> >> >> and ends up displaying an ugly box in cases where it isn't.  I guess
> >> >> this should however be a relatively easy fix.
> >> >>
> >> >> Any feedback / clarification would be nuch appreciated.
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >>
> >> >> Christopher Key
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> >> >> MusicBrainz-users@...
> >> >> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > MusicBrainz-users mailing list
> >> > MusicBrainz-users@...
> >> > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-users
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
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[Chad Wilson-2]

On 21/04/2009 6:08 a.m., Pavan Chander wrote:

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Andrew John Hughes <gnu_andrew@...> wrote:

http://musicbrainz.org/doc/HowToChangeCoverArt

'Also make sure you don't add URLs to products that are only sold by
custom sellers (those that don't have an Amazon price). '

Still valid today or not?
 

I don't think it does/should apply; that line seems to have been added before we used MoinMoin, so the history regarding that line doesn't exist, but it looks like someone's opinion because it doesn't appear on the "official" page for the AR.

http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/AmazonRelationshipType

Pavan Chander // navap

It's still somewhat valid and been the practice of at least some people since I've been involved with MB; regardless of what AmazonRelationshipType says. Seller pages generally aren't available across domains; the cover art is never available and the information is unreliable and most often incomplete. It feels like they are not within the "spirit" of what an ASIN should add to the data set. There's a lot of discussion on the point on the Talk page for AmazonRelationshipType.

That page, and the rules about when or not to use ASINs have been in limbo forever due to disagreement between the consensus-requiring community about when it is appropriate to use. So we have a vague guideline and essentially undocumented style due to people voting-by-personal-feeling :-/

Chad

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[Brian Schweitzer]

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Chad Wilson <chad.wilson@...> wrote:

On 21/04/2009 6:08 a.m., Pavan Chander wrote:

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Andrew John Hughes <gnu_andrew@...> wrote:

http://musicbrainz.org/doc/HowToChangeCoverArt

'Also make sure you don't add URLs to products that are only sold by
custom sellers (those that don't have an Amazon price). '

Still valid today or not?
 

I don't think it does/should apply; that line seems to have been added before we used MoinMoin, so the history regarding that line doesn't exist, but it looks like someone's opinion because it doesn't appear on the "official" page for the AR.

http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/AmazonRelationshipType

Pavan Chander // navap

It's still somewhat valid and been the practice of at least some people since I've been involved with MB; regardless of what AmazonRelationshipType says. Seller pages generally aren't available across domains; the cover art is never available and the information is unreliable and most often incomplete. It feels like they are not within the "spirit" of what an ASIN should add to the data set. There's a lot of discussion on the point on the Talk page for AmazonRelationshipType.

That page, and the rules about when or not to use ASINs have been in limbo forever due to disagreement between the consensus-requiring community about when it is appropriate to use. So we have a vague guideline and essentially undocumented style due to people voting-by-personal-feeling :-/

I'm one of those on the other end of the "do it, don't do it" line; I do think these ASINs as ARs add value.  Seller pages, in my experience, have been almost as available across domains as 'real' Amazon product pages.  The 'real' products also aren't always available across all Amazon sites, but I think we all agree they still are useful.

Not to hijack the thread, but while we're talking ASINs, what about removing the "don't use [import] links" idea? 

Reasons why not to keep that rule:

1) I've searched the entire Amazon Web Service documentation, as well as all other Amazon docs I can find.  There is not a single mention of this flag.  It also is totally unavailable outside of the particular page on the particular Amazon domain; it is not data they pass through their ws.

2) We allow users to define a local Amazon site to use anyhow; ...so if we're rewriting Amazon domains for users anyhow, does this really actually end up saving them much in the way of shipping?  Don't most people check against their local Amazon site, if an Amazon link they follow leads to a non-local Amazon site?  We're the only place I've ever seen that pays this flag any attention whatsoever; every other site I've ever seen that linked Amazon just picked whatever the local Amazon to that site was, then linked *everything* to that particular domain.

3) The rules get really vague anyhow; You have to know about .fr vs .de [import] issues.  You have to balance country of release, artist local Amazon site, etc issues.  (I see these debated endlessly, esp by totally confused newer editors, and we have no clear guidelines, so noone ever has a clear answer to these types of debates.)

4) More and more releases don't have a local Amazon where there is no [import].  Australian, Italian, and Korean releases have been the ones I've been running into myself quite often, where there is no non-[import], so all of #3^^ ends up debated, seemingly endlessly.  (Edit debating energy better used for other things, perhaps, like checking new add release edits?)

5) Amazon makes quite clear in all of their AWS documentation that there is a 1:1 UPC:ASIN relationship.  The prior examples of this appearing to not actually be true that some mentioned a year or two ago have become much less common as Amazon has made more consistent their database data between the various sites.  With mp3 and better track data sharing, it's becoming far less common to see the same ASIN with apparently different tracklists at different sites.  (This never actually was true, it was due to shoddy data entry for track lists; track lists used to be textfield/memo data, not track #/track title data, and a lot of it was seller submitted, not Amazon-cleaned data.)

6) Given the 1:1 UPC:ASIN relationship, we can semi-automatically add ASINs.  If there isn't an ASIN present, but there is a UPC, it's quite simple to query Amazon for any matching ASINs.  I wrote a GM script for this a while back, and I think there's at least one other, if not two other, GM scripts that do something quite similar.  Something along these lines could possibly be added in to the template toolkit code...  but this one rule would block it, or at least, make it much more difficult.  Remember, there is no [import] flag data in the ws feed - even Amazon doesn't consider it valuable info worth exporting; so...  why should we?

:)

Brian


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[Aurélien Mino]

Christopher Key wrote:
> Quite a lot of releases, especially singles, are only available second
> hand through third party sellers, and the data on their Amazon page is
> often quite lacking, with no official cover art, or no art at all, and
> occasionally no tracklisting.  I do however feel that linking to such
> releases does provide useful information.
>
>  
Which useful information does it provide?

Personally, I think that these Amazon relationships are *only* useful
for their cover art.
I've personally not more interest in Amazon than in any other online shops.
I'm glad they allow MB to display cover art, and that MetaBrainz get
some money from each Amazon purchase when you comes from MB.
That's a win-win situation, but not a reason to become a ASIN zealot.

In fact, I don't like the idea that MB have "buy" links in its user
interface.
I consider that a *free* base shouldn't favor some specifics resellers
and stay neutral. And we can't and don't ([2]) link to all resellers.

This applies to linking to Amazon, but here we're doing a compromise in
order to legally get cover arts for a good percentage of our releases.
But when there's no cover art supplied by Amazon, I don't see the point
to add a link.

> Firstly, if someone is attempting to acquire a specific release, the
> lack of information from Amazon may well make this very difficult.  A
> correct tracklisting / Catalog # / barcode from MusicBrainz pointing to
> a specific ASIN would be very useful.
>
> Secondly, whilst no coverart may be available via AWS, end users can
> still acquire coverart directly, or via some suitable scripted method.
>  
Then you can just add one step to your script: get the ASIN from the
barcode using the AWS.
> Moreover, Amazon may in the future add official coverart, and this would
> then automatically become available to MusicBrainz.
>  
I've yet to see that happen. I suggest that then ASIN is only be added
when the cover art actually becomes available.
> Finally, it provides a useful replacement for the large number of
> incorrect ASINs currently in the system.  There are a lot of cases where
> a set of identically titled albums (with different tracklistings) have
> all been attached to the same ASIN.  
These wrong ASIN have been added automatically in one go ([1]) and they
should be removed.
BTW if you follow the remove queue, you'll even see that each week a
good numbers of them are removed.
> My concern is that should these
> simply be removed, they will end up getting reattached by users wanting
> coverart.
>  
But if they're wrongly reattached (ASIN for a different edition), they
will be voted down.

And sometimes you can't find a cover art for a release. That's
unfortunate, but we have to deal with that.

- Aurélien // murdos

[1] http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=318
[2] http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/WhatNotToLinkTo#In_General

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[Mark Woodson]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:04 PM, Aurélien Mino <a.mino@...> wrote:

> Christopher Key wrote:
>> Quite a lot of releases, especially singles, are only available second
>> hand through third party sellers, and the data on their Amazon page is
>> often quite lacking, with no official cover art, or no art at all, and
>> occasionally no tracklisting.  I do however feel that linking to such
>> releases does provide useful information.
>>
>>
> Which useful information does it provide?
>
> Personally, I think that these Amazon relationships are *only* useful
> for their cover art.
> I've personally not more interest in Amazon than in any other online shops.
> I'm glad they allow MB to display cover art, and that MetaBrainz get
> some money from each Amazon purchase when you comes from MB.
> That's a win-win situation, but not a reason to become a ASIN zealot.
>
> In fact, I don't like the idea that MB have "buy" links in its user
> interface.
> I consider that a *free* base shouldn't favor some specifics resellers
> and stay neutral. And we can't and don't ([2]) link to all resellers.

I'd just like to say that I disagree. Searching for out of print
releases to purchase or for cover art are what I'd have to call valid
uses for 3rd party ASIN AR's.

-Mark / InSinU8

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