AVR Xmega

[Isaac Marino Bavaresco]

These days I was studying the AVR Xmega MCUs for prospective use in a
new product. When I learned their capabilities I freaked out!

The facts I found more important:
a) 8-bit MCU approaching 32MIPS @ 32MHz.
b) Internal RAM from 2KB up to 32KB and flash from 16KB up to 384KB.
c) Packages of 44 (34 I/Os), 64 (50 I/Os) and 100 pins (78 I/Os) available.
d) The 100 pins versions have external memory interface, supporting up
to 16MB of SRAM and 128MB of SDRAM!!!
e) 4 DMA channels capable of transferring between any combination of
RAM/port/peripheral and the most amazing: external DMA requests available!
f) Any I/O pin may generate interrupts.
g) Operation from 1.6V up to 3.6V.
h) 5, 7 or 8 USARTS; 5, 7 or 8 16-bit TIMERS; 16, 22 or 24 PWMs; 2, 3 or
4 SPI; 2 or 4 TWI; 12 or 16 12-bit A/D inputs; 2 or 4 12-bit D/A outputs.
i) Hardware crypto-engine with DES and AES support.
j) As all AVRs, every interrupt has its own vector.

Prices from $4.30 up to $9.68 per unit and from $2.40 up to $5.40 per
unit in lots of 100.

If only they had USB or Ethernet as options they would be perfect!

For a previous project I needed a MCU with external DMA request and the
only I found was a Samsung ARM9 (very hard to obtain, including
documentation). I ended up with an Atmel ARM9 without external DMA
request but with an image sensor interface.

Some time ago someone asked for a MCU with image capture capabilities.
One of these Xmega with external RAM and this external DMA request may
be able to capture from a CCD without any support chip. It is a pity
they are only 8 bits.

Another great thing is that development tools are free: WinAVR (gcc) and
for programming any JTAG device supported by AVRDUDE will work. The down
is that debuggers are expensive (around $600).

Isaac
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[Tamas Rudnai]

(added AVR and PIC tag -- I think it will be more like PIC vs. AVR story :-))

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Isaac Marino Bavaresco <isaacbavaresco@...>
> Date: Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 2:21 PM
> Subject: AVR Xmega
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@...>
>
>
> These days I was studying the AVR Xmega MCUs for prospective use in a
> new product. When I learned their capabilities I freaked out!
>
> The facts I found more important:
> a) 8-bit MCU approaching 32MIPS @ 32MHz.
> b) Internal RAM from 2KB up to 32KB and flash from 16KB up to 384KB.
> c) Packages of 44 (34 I/Os), 64 (50 I/Os) and 100 pins (78 I/Os) available.
> d) The 100 pins versions have external memory interface, supporting up
> to 16MB of SRAM and 128MB of SDRAM!!!
> e) 4 DMA channels capable of transferring between any combination of
> RAM/port/peripheral and the most amazing: external DMA requests available!
> f) Any I/O pin may generate interrupts.
> g) Operation from 1.6V up to 3.6V.
> h) 5, 7 or 8 USARTS; 5, 7 or 8 16-bit TIMERS; 16, 22 or 24 PWMs; 2, 3 or
> 4 SPI; 2 or 4 TWI; 12 or 16 12-bit A/D inputs; 2 or 4 12-bit D/A outputs.
> i) Hardware crypto-engine with DES and AES support.
> j) As all AVRs, every interrupt has its own vector.
>
> Prices from $4.30 up to $9.68 per unit and from $2.40 up to $5.40 per
> unit in lots of 100.
>
> If only they had USB or Ethernet as options they would be perfect!
>
> For a previous project I needed a MCU with external DMA request and the
> only I found was a Samsung ARM9 (very hard to obtain, including
> documentation). I ended up with an Atmel ARM9 without external DMA
> request but with an image sensor interface.
>
> Some time ago someone asked for a MCU with image capture capabilities.
> One of these Xmega with external RAM and this external DMA request may
> be able to capture from a CCD without any support chip. It is a pity
> they are only 8 bits.
>
> Another great thing is that development tools are free: WinAVR (gcc) and
> for programming any JTAG device supported by AVRDUDE will work. The down
> is that debuggers are expensive (around $600).
>
> Isaac
> __________________________________________________
>

First of all, as you may know MIPS also known as Meaningless Indicator
of Processor Speed. Meaningless as it does not reflect what can you do
in 1 instruction. For example in AVR architecture you just cannot use
arithmetic or logic instructions on RAM locations. AVR is a register
based architecture, so you first need to load the RAM location to a
register to do something with that and store it afterwards, Secondy
which is even more strange in AVR is that you cannot use all available
registers for all instructions, for bit manipulations for example you
need to load the RAM location and even certain register location into
a specific register region to do that. As a results AVR sometimes even
slower than PIC (LDS takes 2 cycles, SBR is 1 only, SBS 2 cycles
again, which is 5 cycles -- for PIC the same you need only 1
instruction that takes 1 cycle which is 4 OSC). This is an extreme
example I know, but the typical speed ration is around 2:1 so the AVR
could be still faster by consuming 4 times more current.

There are many nice thing in AVR though ,but GCC and WinAVR is not
really one of them. The compiled code is just acceptable, if you want
to achieve better performance you need to use weird attributes and
even then it makes weird stuff like you want to put a variable on a
specific register (to avoid this LDS-STS issue), and for example if
you load it's value from PORTB then it first loads into another
register and then moves that register into yours.

Honestly I think that for prices $2-$5 / unit you can get the 16bit
PIC (PIC24 or dsPIC) which are 32MHz/16MIPS or even 80MHz/40MIPS but
with PIC architecture so overall it is faster than 8 bit AVR for sure.
Also you can get one with USB module, 32bit timer, 16bit PWM etc...

BTW for AVR there is a debugger/programmer similar to PICkit2 which is
called AVR Dragon. It is around $50:

http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/view_detail.asp?ref=&FileName=AVRDragon_9_18.html&Family_id=607

Tamas
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[William "Chops" Westfield]

> (added AVR and PIC tag -- I think it will be more like PIC vs. AVR  
> story :-))

No, not again.  Besides, multiple tags are a no-no.  (Back to just  
[avr])

>> These days I was studying the AVR Xmega MCUs for prospective use in a
>> new product. When I learned their capabilities I freaked out!

I'd be more impressed if the initial devices hadn't been over a year  
late hitting the distributers.  There have already been manufacturers  
complaining that their projects died because the chips weren't  
available in time.  Before you start using one, you might want to make  
sure that that exact chip is in-stock at SOME distributer.

>>
>> e) 4 DMA channels capable of transferring between any combination of
>> RAM/port/peripheral and the most amazing: external DMA requests  
>> available!
>>
>
> First of all, as you may know MIPS also known as Meaningless Indicator
> of Processor Speed.   [more rants about pic vs avr architecture.]

This isn't about PIC (or PIC24) vs AVR, which has long since become a  
pointless discussion.  The architectures ARE different, in ways that  
make it unclear which will perform better in any particular  
circumstance at any particular clock frequency, but they're both  
clearly quite capable of lots of things...

This is about AVR vs the new XAVR architecture.  In the latter, Atmel  
has added a lot of interesting features (DMA/etc) to the IO pieces of  
the hardware.  And lots of peripherals that are somewhat uncommon on  
microcontrollers of this size (5 or more UARTS.  Woot!)  Many are  
apparently capable of doing useful things without any CPU intervention  
at all.  The XAVRs ARE interesting...


> There are many nice thing in AVR though ,but GCC and WinAVR is not
> really one of them. The compiled code is just acceptable

Which free PIC compiler are you comparing it against?  I haven't found  
avr-gcc to be all that bad in general; some of the weirdness in  
produced code is due to those odd bits about the AVR architecture you  
mentioned (some registers not being all that "general purpose" as  
Atmel would have you believe.)

>
> with PIC architecture so overall it is faster than 8 bit AVR for sure.

Nothing is that "for sure."  If all you care about is performance, you  
can get boards with 1GHz+ x86 architectures (and a host of desktop-
like IO) for about the same price
(~$100) as a fancy dsPIC or xAVR board.  (Thanks to mass production,  
obsolescence, and etc.  I call it "the $100 paradox")

BillW

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[M.L.-2]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
<isaacbavaresco@...> wrote:

> These days I was studying the AVR Xmega MCUs for prospective use in a
> new product. When I learned their capabilities I freaked out!
>
> The facts I found more important:
> a) 8-bit MCU approaching 32MIPS @ 32MHz.
> b) Internal RAM from 2KB up to 32KB and flash from 16KB up to 384KB.
> c) Packages of 44 (34 I/Os), 64 (50 I/Os) and 100 pins (78 I/Os) available.
> d) The 100 pins versions have external memory interface, supporting up
> to 16MB of SRAM and 128MB of SDRAM!!!
> e) 4 DMA channels capable of transferring between any combination of
> RAM/port/peripheral and the most amazing: external DMA requests available!
> f) Any I/O pin may generate interrupts.
> g) Operation from 1.6V up to 3.6V.
> h) 5, 7 or 8 USARTS; 5, 7 or 8 16-bit TIMERS; 16, 22 or 24 PWMs; 2, 3 or
> 4 SPI; 2 or 4 TWI; 12 or 16 12-bit A/D inputs; 2 or 4 12-bit D/A outputs.
> i) Hardware crypto-engine with DES and AES support.
> j) As all AVRs, every interrupt has its own vector.
>

I looked it up because I didn't believe you - but it actually does
have an SDRAM controller. That's pretty interesting. I'm not sure how
it compares to other high-end micros though. It seems like it's stuck
between a microcontroller and a DSP.

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[Marcel Birthelmer-2]

>
> As I said in the original post, I regret they don't having USB or Ethernet.
> Of course a dsPIC is faster, but I have a product which uses a dsPIC,
> SRAM and PLD to capture images from a CCD and send them encrypted by
> Ethernet, and I think that one of these Xmega may perform faster because
> of the DMA and the crypto-engine and I wouldn't even need the PLD.
>

Just out of curiosity, what's the price point of a memory-mappable
ethernet IC (AMD PCnet or whatever) vs. SRAM/PLD?
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[Isaac Marino Bavaresco]

Tamas Rudnai escreveu:

> (added AVR and PIC tag -- I think it will be more like PIC vs. AVR story :-))
>
>  
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Isaac Marino Bavaresco <isaacbavaresco@...>
>> Date: Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 2:21 PM
>> Subject: AVR Xmega
>> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@...>
>>
>>
>> These days I was studying the AVR Xmega MCUs for prospective use in a
>> new product. When I learned their capabilities I freaked out!
>>
>> The facts I found more important:
>> a) 8-bit MCU approaching 32MIPS @ 32MHz.
>> b) Internal RAM from 2KB up to 32KB and flash from 16KB up to 384KB.
>> c) Packages of 44 (34 I/Os), 64 (50 I/Os) and 100 pins (78 I/Os) available.
>> d) The 100 pins versions have external memory interface, supporting up
>> to 16MB of SRAM and 128MB of SDRAM!!!
>> e) 4 DMA channels capable of transferring between any combination of
>> RAM/port/peripheral and the most amazing: external DMA requests available!
>> f) Any I/O pin may generate interrupts.
>> g) Operation from 1.6V up to 3.6V.
>> h) 5, 7 or 8 USARTS; 5, 7 or 8 16-bit TIMERS; 16, 22 or 24 PWMs; 2, 3 or
>> 4 SPI; 2 or 4 TWI; 12 or 16 12-bit A/D inputs; 2 or 4 12-bit D/A outputs.
>> i) Hardware crypto-engine with DES and AES support.
>> j) As all AVRs, every interrupt has its own vector.
>>
>> Prices from $4.30 up to $9.68 per unit and from $2.40 up to $5.40 per
>> unit in lots of 100.
>>
>> If only they had USB or Ethernet as options they would be perfect!
>>
>> For a previous project I needed a MCU with external DMA request and the
>> only I found was a Samsung ARM9 (very hard to obtain, including
>> documentation). I ended up with an Atmel ARM9 without external DMA
>> request but with an image sensor interface.
>>
>> Some time ago someone asked for a MCU with image capture capabilities.
>> One of these Xmega with external RAM and this external DMA request may
>> be able to capture from a CCD without any support chip. It is a pity
>> they are only 8 bits.
>>
>> Another great thing is that development tools are free: WinAVR (gcc) and
>> for programming any JTAG device supported by AVRDUDE will work. The down
>> is that debuggers are expensive (around $600).
>>
>> Isaac
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>    
>
> First of all, as you may know MIPS also known as Meaningless Indicator
> of Processor Speed. Meaningless as it does not reflect what can you do
> in 1 instruction. For example in AVR architecture you just cannot use
> arithmetic or logic instructions on RAM locations. AVR is a register
> based architecture, so you first need to load the RAM location to a
> register to do something with that and store it afterwards, Secondy
> which is even more strange in AVR is that you cannot use all available
> registers for all instructions, for bit manipulations for example you
> need to load the RAM location and even certain register location into
>  

Fortunately there are high-level languages to hide such things from the
programmer.

> a specific register region to do that. As a results AVR sometimes even
> slower than PIC (LDS takes 2 cycles, SBR is 1 only, SBS 2 cycles
> again, which is 5 cycles -- for PIC the same you need only 1
> instruction that takes 1 cycle which is 4 OSC). This is an extreme
> example I know, but the typical speed ration is around 2:1 so the AVR
> could be still faster by consuming 4 times more current.
>  

Although not 4x faster for the same clock as some may think, but it is
still faster. After you account for some inefficiency in its instruction
set, it is still perhaps 2x faster per MHz.

> There are many nice thing in AVR though ,but GCC and WinAVR is not
> really one of them. The compiled code is just acceptable, if you want
> to achieve better performance you need to use weird attributes and
> even then it makes weird stuff like you want to put a variable on a
> specific register (to avoid this LDS-STS issue), and for example if
> you load it's value from PORTB then it first loads into another
> register and then moves that register into yours.
>  

Idiosyncrasies apart, GCC is free and as you said, its code is
acceptable. There are better compilers around if one is willing to spend
some $$$.

> Honestly I think that for prices $2-$5 / unit you can get the 16bit
> PIC (PIC24 or dsPIC) which are 32MHz/16MIPS or even 80MHz/40MIPS but
> with PIC architecture so overall it is faster than 8 bit AVR for sure.
> Also you can get one with USB module, 32bit timer, 16bit PWM etc...
>  

As I said in the original post, I regret they don't having USB or Ethernet.
Of course a dsPIC is faster, but I have a product which uses a dsPIC,
SRAM and PLD to capture images from a CCD and send them encrypted by
Ethernet, and I think that one of these Xmega may perform faster because
of the DMA and the crypto-engine and I wouldn't even need the PLD.

My external SRAM (512KiB) is loosely coupled to the dsPIC, so I can't
use it as ordinary RAM for variables and my frame buffer doesn't use it
all. I have more that 100KiB of unused RAM that I can't use in an
efficient way. With one of those Xmega I could just use it as ordinary RAM.

What dsPIC would allow you to add processor speed (S/SD)RAM in a
glue-less way?


> BTW for AVR there is a debugger/programmer similar to PICkit2 which is
> called AVR Dragon. It is around $50:
>
> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/view_detail.asp?ref=&FileName=AVRDragon_9_18.html&Family_id=607
>
> Tamas
>  

Even better!


Best regards,

Isaac

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[John Samperi]

At 02:02 AM 1/11/2009, you wrote:
>(added AVR and PIC tag -- I think it will be more like PIC vs. AVR story :-))

....and a lot of misinformation about AVRs. :-) I hope that some
of the comments were simply out of not knowing better and not
just being mischievous.

Anyway the PIC vs AVR issue has been settled a long time ago on
avrfreaks.net and we know AVRs are better than PICs despite a
very PICky fellow pushing the PIC barrow ad nauseam. (Leon may
be reading this)

hmmm I thought this list was dead.


Regards

John Samperi

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[Marcel Birthelmer-2]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
<isaacbavaresco@...> wrote:

> Marcel Birthelmer escreveu:
>>> As I said in the original post, I regret they don't having USB or Ethernet.
>>> Of course a dsPIC is faster, but I have a product which uses a dsPIC,
>>> SRAM and PLD to capture images from a CCD and send them encrypted by
>>> Ethernet, and I think that one of these Xmega may perform faster because
>>> of the DMA and the crypto-engine and I wouldn't even need the PLD.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, what's the price point of a memory-mappable
>> ethernet IC (AMD PCnet or whatever) vs. SRAM/PLD?
>>
>
> The PLD (not FPGA) and SRAM are for frame-grabbing. For the Ethernet
> interface I use the RTL8019AS (older versions) and ENC28J60.

So wouldn't you still stand to gain from replacing everything except
the ethernet mac with an xmega?
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[Isaac Marino Bavaresco]

Marcel Birthelmer escreveu:

>> As I said in the original post, I regret they don't having USB or Ethernet.
>> Of course a dsPIC is faster, but I have a product which uses a dsPIC,
>> SRAM and PLD to capture images from a CCD and send them encrypted by
>> Ethernet, and I think that one of these Xmega may perform faster because
>> of the DMA and the crypto-engine and I wouldn't even need the PLD.
>>
>>    
>
> Just out of curiosity, what's the price point of a memory-mappable
> ethernet IC (AMD PCnet or whatever) vs. SRAM/PLD?
>  

The PLD (not FPGA) and SRAM are for frame-grabbing. For the Ethernet
interface I use the RTL8019AS (older versions) and ENC28J60.


Isaac

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[Isaac Marino Bavaresco]

Isaac Marino Bavaresco wrote:

> Tamas Rudnai wrote:
>  
>> BTW for AVR there is a debugger/programmer similar to PICkit2 which is
>> called AVR Dragon. It is around $50:
>>
>> http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/view_detail.asp?ref=&FileName=AVRDragon_9_18.html&Family_id=607
>>
>> Tamas
>>  
>>    
>
> Even better!
>  

Oh No! For the Xmega the only available debuggers are AVR ONE! ($599)
and JTAGICE mkII ($299) :(

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[John Samperi]

At 09:43 AM 1/11/2009, you wrote:
>Oh No! For the Xmega the only available debuggers are AVR ONE! ($599)
>and JTAGICE mkII ($299) :(

JTAG Mk2 has been selling at $150.00 for months (on special, offer
may have ended now)

The Dragon ($50.00) is supposedly able to work with Xmegas with
the newer version of Studio V4.18 (still beta version), don't know
yet if it will in fact debug Xmegas too.

 From Studio V4.18 release notes:
"AVR Dragon support for all AVR 8-bit devices including XMEGA.
Programming and debugging within AVR Studio and command line
software support for ELF production file format."


Regards

John Samperi

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[Isaac Marino Bavaresco]

Marcel Birthelmer escreveu:

> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
> <isaacbavaresco@...> wrote:
>  
>> Marcel Birthelmer escreveu:
>>    
>>>> As I said in the original post, I regret they don't having USB or Ethernet.
>>>> Of course a dsPIC is faster, but I have a product which uses a dsPIC,
>>>> SRAM and PLD to capture images from a CCD and send them encrypted by
>>>> Ethernet, and I think that one of these Xmega may perform faster because
>>>> of the DMA and the crypto-engine and I wouldn't even need the PLD.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>> Just out of curiosity, what's the price point of a memory-mappable
>>> ethernet IC (AMD PCnet or whatever) vs. SRAM/PLD?
>>>
>>>      
>> The PLD (not FPGA) and SRAM are for frame-grabbing. For the Ethernet
>> interface I use the RTL8019AS (older versions) and ENC28J60.
>>    
>
> So wouldn't you still stand to gain from replacing everything except
> the ethernet mac with an xmega?
>  

As I said, with an Xmega I could have the same functionality saving the
PLD and perhaps gaining speed even with a smaller (8-bit) processor, at
same time having orders of magnitude more RAM for the application  (OK,
perhaps just one order of magnitude).

Isaac

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[Tamas Rudnai]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Samperi
<samperi@...> wrote:
> Anyway the PIC vs AVR issue has been settled a long time ago on
> avrfreaks.net and we know AVRs are better than PICs despite a
> very PICky fellow pushing the PIC barrow ad nauseam. (Leon may
> be reading this)

I guess all AVR freak suggested that AVR is "better" whatever that means :-)

Anyway, all I am saying is that "MIPS" does not mean too much so that
should be out of all comparison. There are many other aspects that are
usually not addressed in discussions like this. For example -- as I
tried to express already -- probably a 16bit architecture is a better
value for the very same amount of money than an 8bit one -- except if
there is a very good reason for that 8bit chip (like a special module
or that DMA with external SRAM accessibility).

Tamas

>
> hmmm I thought this list was dead.
>
>
> Regards
>
> John Samperi
>
> ********************************************************
> Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
> 11 Brokenwood Place Baulkham Hills, NSW 2153 AUSTRALIA
> Tel. [phone]       Fax [phone]
> Website  http://www.ampertronics.com.au
> *Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
> ********************************************************
>
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