Acceptable Job Postings
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Acceptable Job Postings
by Ryan Cross-3
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Hi,
This is not directed at anyone in particular (i.e. Sam) but I'm curious how other people feel about job postings on this mailing list. I personally would expect this list to be used for discussions between consultants/shops and mostly around issues facing us that do not necessarily get addressed by other outlets (i.e. not technical or development questions, theming functions, etc). I would generally expect discussions around business topics such as Sam's recent discussion about a skills inventory used in hiring people. It seems very obvious when people not familiar with this list (usually newbies) end up posting job offers or projects to this list without this concept. While I am sure people on this list might be interested in more work (obviously they are in the business for it), I personally do not like seeing them here. I guess I would like to imagine that this can be a bit of a sanctuary for discussion about clients/business without feeling like we have to always be worried about looking bad in front of potential clients. (you probably don't want clients knowing you're unsure of how to estimate a job or that your contracts might have holes in it, etc). I am quite conscious of this being a public forum and have no delusions people can find out this stuff, but I don't want potential clients to have more of a reason to come here and I would support any actions that would discourage this like job posts to this list. The converse of this would be if people started posting to this list advertising their skills/services, which I think would also be inappropriate. How does everyone else feel? There may be some grey areas, such as consultants looking for specialists in other areas. Like a themer looking for a developer, or a developer looking for a hoster. So, if you do want to support job posts, what is acceptable? This may also lead into a more detailed discussion of general guidelines for this list I guess, but I think this is a specific issue that should have a clear answer. Thanks, Ryan _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Cameron Eagans
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While I agree with you, the reason that I joined this list in the first place was because I thought that there would be frequent job postings. As a college student running a Drupal shop, I need all the help I can get finding new work.
That said, I agree with you. Would it be too much of a hassle to split job postings off into a [Jobs] list? If/when that happens, I would join that list, but until then, I think the consultants list is the best place for job postings at the moment. ----- Cameron Eagans Owner, Black Storms Studios, LLC http://www.blackstormsstudios.com On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Ryan Cross <drupal@...> wrote: Hi, _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Jerad Bitner
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I think it is an acceptable place for people to cross post. Most people who join I think are already consultants. So if a consultant is looking for another consultant, or even if an employer were looking for a consultant, I see no problem with that.
~Jerad Bitner (sirkitree)
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Cameron Eagans <cweagans@...> wrote: While I agree with you, the reason that I joined this list in the first place was because I thought that there would be frequent job postings. As a college student running a Drupal shop, I need all the help I can get finding new work. _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Domenic Santangelo
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Cameron Eagans wrote:
> While I agree with you, the reason that I joined this list in the > first place was because I thought that there would be frequent job > postings. As a college student running a Drupal shop, I need all the > help I can get finding new work. > > That said, I agree with you. > > Would it be too much of a hassle to split job postings off into a > [Jobs] list? > > If/when that happens, I would join that list, but until then, I think > the consultants list is the best place for job postings at the moment. seems this list is appropriate for (non-spammy) job posts. -D _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Laura Scott-2
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If this becomes a jobs dumping ground, I and likely many others will
unsubscribe. Groups.drupal.org has plenty of job postings. And then there are other places, such as people's own company websites, Craig's list, DrupalCons and other events, and of course the grinder o-lancer- desk sites. And good ol' search. For example, we are usually in hiring mode, and I'm pretty sure it would get tiresome for you all if we kept spamming this list with postings. And we're not exactly unique in that aspect. This could easily become a list with dozens of posts a day. Laura http://pingv.com On Aug 27, 2009, at Thu 8/27/09 5:12pm, Ryan Cross wrote: > Hi, > > This is not directed at anyone in particular (i.e. Sam) but I'm > curious how other people feel about job postings on this mailing list. > I personally would expect this list to be used for discussions between > consultants/shops and mostly around issues facing us that do not > necessarily get addressed by other outlets (i.e. not technical or > development questions, theming functions, etc). I would generally > expect discussions around business topics such as Sam's recent > discussion about a skills inventory used in hiring people. > > It seems very obvious when people not familiar with this list (usually > newbies) end up posting job offers or projects to this list without > this concept. While I am sure people on this list might be interested > in more work (obviously they are in the business for it), I personally > do not like seeing them here. I guess I would like to imagine that > this can be a bit of a sanctuary for discussion about clients/business > without feeling like we have to always be worried about looking bad in > front of potential clients. (you probably don't want clients knowing > you're unsure of how to estimate a job or that your contracts might > have holes in it, etc). I am quite conscious of this being a public > forum and have no delusions people can find out this stuff, but I > don't want potential clients to have more of a reason to come here and > I would support any actions that would discourage this like job posts > to this list. The converse of this would be if people started posting > to this list advertising their skills/services, which I think would > also be inappropriate. > > How does everyone else feel? > > There may be some grey areas, such as consultants looking for > specialists in other areas. Like a themer looking for a developer, or > a developer looking for a hoster. So, if you do want to support job > posts, what is acceptable? > > This may also lead into a more detailed discussion of general > guidelines for this list I guess, but I think this is a specific issue > that should have a clear answer. > > Thanks, > Ryan > _______________________________________________ > consulting mailing list > consulting@... > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Ryan Cross-3
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Hey Cameron,
Is there a reason you don't get enough job postings on your relevant http://groups.drupal.org or even http://groups.drupal.org/jobs ? Also there is the market place in the forums - http://drupal.org/paid-services There is also the potentially less relevant forum (but still commercial services oriented) http://drupal.org/hosting-support I just find there are somewhat opposing needs from discussing business topics with other people and having to put on your "professional face" in front of clients. -Ryan On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Cameron Eagans<cweagans@...> wrote: > While I agree with you, the reason that I joined this list in the first > place was because I thought that there would be frequent job postings. As a > college student running a Drupal shop, I need all the help I can get finding > new work. > > That said, I agree with you. > > Would it be too much of a hassle to split job postings off into a [Jobs] > list? > > If/when that happens, I would join that list, but until then, I think the > consultants list is the best place for job postings at the moment. > ----- > Cameron Eagans > Owner, Black Storms Studios, LLC > http://www.blackstormsstudios.com > > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Ryan Cross <drupal@...> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> This is not directed at anyone in particular (i.e. Sam) but I'm >> curious how other people feel about job postings on this mailing list. >> I personally would expect this list to be used for discussions between >> consultants/shops and mostly around issues facing us that do not >> necessarily get addressed by other outlets (i.e. not technical or >> development questions, theming functions, etc). I would generally >> expect discussions around business topics such as Sam's recent >> discussion about a skills inventory used in hiring people. >> >> It seems very obvious when people not familiar with this list (usually >> newbies) end up posting job offers or projects to this list without >> this concept. While I am sure people on this list might be interested >> in more work (obviously they are in the business for it), I personally >> do not like seeing them here. I guess I would like to imagine that >> this can be a bit of a sanctuary for discussion about clients/business >> without feeling like we have to always be worried about looking bad in >> front of potential clients. (you probably don't want clients knowing >> you're unsure of how to estimate a job or that your contracts might >> have holes in it, etc). I am quite conscious of this being a public >> forum and have no delusions people can find out this stuff, but I >> don't want potential clients to have more of a reason to come here and >> I would support any actions that would discourage this like job posts >> to this list. The converse of this would be if people started posting >> to this list advertising their skills/services, which I think would >> also be inappropriate. >> >> How does everyone else feel? >> >> There may be some grey areas, such as consultants looking for >> specialists in other areas. Like a themer looking for a developer, or >> a developer looking for a hoster. So, if you do want to support job >> posts, what is acceptable? >> >> This may also lead into a more detailed discussion of general >> guidelines for this list I guess, but I think this is a specific issue >> that should have a clear answer. >> >> Thanks, >> Ryan >> _______________________________________________ >> consulting mailing list >> consulting@... >> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting > > > _______________________________________________ > consulting mailing list > consulting@... > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting > > consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Ryan Cross-3
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On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Domenic
Santangelo<domenic@...> wrote: > > +1 to this. If there were a Jobs list I would join; until that time it seems > this list is appropriate for (non-spammy) job posts. > Part of my reasoning to this post was that I remember seeing several recruiters posting job offers awhile back, which i consider very "spammy". _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Cameron Eagans
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Hey Ryan,
Well, I guess you tell me: http://groups.drupal.org/node/5383/jobs I run a business, so I'm not really looking for anything full time. I guess I just enjoy the prospect of jobs coming to me, instead of having to dig through hundreds/thousands of job postings on g.d.o. Lazy? Sure. Effective? Absolutely. But yeah, I would absolutely +1 a [Jobs] list. ----- Cameron Eagans Owner, Black Storms Studios, LLC http://www.blackstormsstudios.com On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Ryan Cross <drupal@...> wrote: Hey Cameron, _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Sam Cohen-2
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My 2 cents on this is that this is supposed to be a list for consultants, so consultants posting jobs for other consultants -- subcontracting, freelancers, full time jobs - would make sense.
While someone who is not a consultant joining this list to post a job wouldn't be cool. But I'd like to ask the list owner to just set some specific ground rules, because these conversations about what is and what is not acceptable don't really accomplish anything. Sam On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Cameron Eagans <cweagans@...> wrote: Hey Ryan, _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Christian Pearce-6
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On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Sam Cohen <sam@...> wrote: My 2 cents on this is that this is supposed to be a list for consultants, so consultants posting jobs for other consultants -- subcontracting, freelancers, full time jobs - would make sense. That was going to be my comment too. I have gotten work from this list. I do a fair amount of working helping other companies learn to do drupal for themselves. My roll is being a consultant to them. I also think those sort of people are specially looking for a consultant.
For now the job posting traffic seems acceptable.
1. Post a job if you are a consultant looking for other consultants 2. If you are an outside company looking for a consultant. Unacceptable 1. Headhunters, job agencies 2. People not in need of a consultant, then can just post on drupal.org proper in any of the locations already available.
-- Christian Pearce xforty technologies 484-951-0700 http://xforty.com _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Ryan Cross-3
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I keep being tempted to respond to each person, but I will refrain to
encourage more discussion about this topic. I just wanted to point out this additional space - http://groups.drupal.org/marketplace - in combination with something like http://www.feedmyinbox.com and other services which will take an RSS feed and pipe it to your inbox, I think that solves the "push" argument. -Ryan _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Brian Vuyk-2
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Personally, I could do without the ads. I'm not looking for more work,
and the ads just clutter up my trash. However, I can see their value to others of the group. I am inclined to agree with the other responses which suggest ads looking for consultants, and posted by consultants are appropriate, while those by tech recruiters and the like are not really. As far as clients on the list, well, they definately lurk here. A while back, I posted (in general terms) about a client issue I was having, looking for advice / how other developers handled it. I had a *different* client call me later in the day quite upset that I was referring to him. Once I explained that it was not him, and pointed out the obvious major differences between what I wrote to the group and him, he calmed down, but told me in no uncertain terms that he felt I should not be discussing client relationships with others. Since then, I've refrained from discussing anything client-related or business-related in this group. However, I wouldn't mind seeing a mailing list created with controlled access for developers - ie, you must have an email address from a development shop or something. I do feel that we can learn a lot from each other, especially small business shops. Best business practices, tips for dealing with problem clients etc. etc. which may not be appropriate to discuss in front of clients directly. Brian Ryan Cross wrote: > Hi, > > This is not directed at anyone in particular (i.e. Sam) but I'm > curious how other people feel about job postings on this mailing list. > I personally would expect this list to be used for discussions between > consultants/shops and mostly around issues facing us that do not > necessarily get addressed by other outlets (i.e. not technical or > development questions, theming functions, etc). I would generally > expect discussions around business topics such as Sam's recent > discussion about a skills inventory used in hiring people. > > It seems very obvious when people not familiar with this list (usually > newbies) end up posting job offers or projects to this list without > this concept. While I am sure people on this list might be interested > in more work (obviously they are in the business for it), I personally > do not like seeing them here. I guess I would like to imagine that > this can be a bit of a sanctuary for discussion about clients/business > without feeling like we have to always be worried about looking bad in > front of potential clients. (you probably don't want clients knowing > you're unsure of how to estimate a job or that your contracts might > have holes in it, etc). I am quite conscious of this being a public > forum and have no delusions people can find out this stuff, but I > don't want potential clients to have more of a reason to come here and > I would support any actions that would discourage this like job posts > to this list. The converse of this would be if people started posting > to this list advertising their skills/services, which I think would > also be inappropriate. > > How does everyone else feel? > > There may be some grey areas, such as consultants looking for > specialists in other areas. Like a themer looking for a developer, or > a developer looking for a hoster. So, if you do want to support job > posts, what is acceptable? > > This may also lead into a more detailed discussion of general > guidelines for this list I guess, but I think this is a specific issue > that should have a clear answer. > > Thanks, > Ryan > _______________________________________________ > consulting mailing list > consulting@... > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting > _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by George-151
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I think if jobs from existing contractors are acceptable, it opens the
path for agents to masquerade as contractors looking for clients. However, this can be fairly easily proved and dealt with. However as it seems still no one really knows what the consulting list is really for, and as it is a post by a consultant, the occasional advert from known names for me, is acceptable. Brian Vuyk wrote: > Personally, I could do without the ads. I'm not looking for more work, > and the ads just clutter up my trash. > > However, I can see their value to others of the group. I am inclined > to agree with the other responses which suggest ads looking for > consultants, and posted by consultants are appropriate, while those by > tech recruiters and the like are not really. > > As far as clients on the list, well, they definately lurk here. A > while back, I posted (in general terms) about a client issue I was > having, looking for advice / how other developers handled it. I had a > *different* client call me later in the day quite upset that I was > referring to him. Once I explained that it was not him, and pointed > out the obvious major differences between what I wrote to the group > and him, he calmed down, but told me in no uncertain terms that he > felt I should not be discussing client relationships with others. > > Since then, I've refrained from discussing anything client-related or > business-related in this group. However, I wouldn't mind seeing a > mailing list created with controlled access for developers - ie, you > must have an email address from a development shop or something. I do > feel that we can learn a lot from each other, especially small > business shops. Best business practices, tips for dealing with problem > clients etc. etc. which may not be appropriate to discuss in front of > clients directly. > > Brian > > Ryan Cross wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This is not directed at anyone in particular (i.e. Sam) but I'm >> curious how other people feel about job postings on this mailing list. >> I personally would expect this list to be used for discussions between >> consultants/shops and mostly around issues facing us that do not >> necessarily get addressed by other outlets (i.e. not technical or >> development questions, theming functions, etc). I would generally >> expect discussions around business topics such as Sam's recent >> discussion about a skills inventory used in hiring people. >> >> It seems very obvious when people not familiar with this list (usually >> newbies) end up posting job offers or projects to this list without >> this concept. While I am sure people on this list might be interested >> in more work (obviously they are in the business for it), I personally >> do not like seeing them here. I guess I would like to imagine that >> this can be a bit of a sanctuary for discussion about clients/business >> without feeling like we have to always be worried about looking bad in >> front of potential clients. (you probably don't want clients knowing >> you're unsure of how to estimate a job or that your contracts might >> have holes in it, etc). I am quite conscious of this being a public >> forum and have no delusions people can find out this stuff, but I >> don't want potential clients to have more of a reason to come here and >> I would support any actions that would discourage this like job posts >> to this list. The converse of this would be if people started posting >> to this list advertising their skills/services, which I think would >> also be inappropriate. >> >> How does everyone else feel? >> >> There may be some grey areas, such as consultants looking for >> specialists in other areas. Like a themer looking for a developer, or >> a developer looking for a hoster. So, if you do want to support job >> posts, what is acceptable? >> >> This may also lead into a more detailed discussion of general >> guidelines for this list I guess, but I think this is a specific issue >> that should have a clear answer. >> >> Thanks, >> Ryan >> _______________________________________________ >> consulting mailing list >> consulting@... >> http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting >> > > _______________________________________________ > consulting mailing list > consulting@... > http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by SteveJB
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Viewing discussions on questionable client requests/requirements is the very reason I join consulting lists whether it's for Drupal or non-Drupal related work.
When I do feel like I should post a question about a client request, I step back and try to decide if the possible hassles involved with a new and questionable client would be worth the time sink. On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Brian Vuyk <brian@...> wrote: Personally, I could do without the ads. I'm not looking for more work, and the ads just clutter up my trash. -- Personal Website: http://stevejbayer.com Time Zone: +0530 UTC _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by Christian Pearce-6
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I don't recall the exact conversation because I don't read everything that comes through this list. Having said that I think it is a shame you don't think you can discuss issues are having. My general feeling is everyone gets into tough situations with clients and need advice from time to time. Not because you are trying to bad mouth them, but you are looking for solutions to help an bad situation. That seems acceptable to me if you don't refer to them by name or give details in which they could be found out.
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Brian Vuyk <brian@...> wrote:
-- Christian Pearce xforty technologies 484-951-0700 http://xforty.com _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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Re: Acceptable Job Postings
by David Hazel
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Hey Brian,
I'm doing Startup Weekend Redmond this weekend and will be pitching my ClientRating idea. One of the things we've talked about is what would add value to the conversation. A big issue that keeps coming up is how do you get consultants to feel free to accurately rate their clients, without worrying about client backlash. (either current client or potential future clients). One of the possible solutions we're looking at is an invite only community to help increase the trust factor, so folks can be less guarded. Of course, clients will always slip through the gates (especially since many of us are both clients/contractors) but I think a client who is also a consultant potentially has more insight into the other side of the coin and thus may be more reasonable...?? -Dave On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Brian Vuyk <brian@...> wrote:
-- Email is not a secure form of communication! Drupal Consultant http://www.hazelconsulting.com/ 253.686.0296 dave@... skype: hazelconsulting gtalk:kananii http://www.facebook.com/davidhazel ICQ: 366587185 _______________________________________________ consulting mailing list consulting@... http://lists.drupal.org/mailman/listinfo/consulting |
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