Adding USB flash drive INSIDE NSLU2 on extra USB ports?

[SimpleSimon]

Since the NSLU2 has support for three more USB ports built in, would
it not make sense to hardware a large USB flash drive to one of these
ports? If so, couldn't Unslung use this drive to boot from, leaving
both USB ports free for storing ONLY user data?







 
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[Frederic Wenzel]

nettsr wrote:
> Since the NSLU2 has support for three more USB ports built in, would
> it not make sense to hardware a large USB flash drive to one of these
> ports? If so, couldn't Unslung use this drive to boot from, leaving
> both USB ports free for storing ONLY user data?

I don't see any reason why this shouldn't work. So if you happen to be
good at soldering, you could definitely connect a USB stick inside of
the NSLU2 and install Linux on it.

I haven't heard of the three USB connectors inside yet, though. Is that
true?

Fred



 
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[Ingemar Nilsson-2]

Frederic Wenzel wrote:

> I haven't heard of the three USB connectors inside yet, though. Is that
> true?

There is even a wiki page about accessing these ports, so I think that
it is true:

http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/EnableExtraUSBPorts

Regards
Ingemar





 
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[SimpleSimon]

--- In nslu2-linux@..., Frederic Wenzel <fred@...> wrote:

>
> nettsr wrote:
> > Since the NSLU2 has support for three more USB ports built in, would
> > it not make sense to hardware a large USB flash drive to one of these
> > ports? If so, couldn't Unslung use this drive to boot from, leaving
> > both USB ports free for storing ONLY user data?
>
> I don't see any reason why this shouldn't work. So if you happen to be
> good at soldering, you could definitely connect a USB stick inside of
> the NSLU2 and install Linux on it.
>
> I haven't heard of the three USB connectors inside yet, though. Is that
> true?

Most definately:
http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/EnableExtraUSBPorts

But now I'm being told that a memory stick wouldn't have enough space
to hold any useful amount of data. I'd sure like to find out for sure
one way or the other.






 
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[Frederic Wenzel]

>> I haven't heard of the three USB connectors inside yet, though. Is that
>> true?
>
> Most definately:
> http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/EnableExtraUSBPorts

Thanks, guys.

> But now I'm being told that a memory stick wouldn't have enough space
> to hold any useful amount of data. I'd sure like to find out for sure
> one way or the other.

Why? Depending on what you want to install (I mean: which distribution
and what applications), a USB stick is fine.

I am running OpenSlug on a 64 Meg USB stick currently, and it is working
well.

Fred


 

[Mike Westerhof (mwester)]

> But now I'm being told that a memory stick wouldn't have enough space
> to hold any useful amount of data. I'd sure like to find out for sure
> one way or the other.

Are you sure you understood the response correctly?  Unslung will work
nicely with a memory stick as small as 256MB (smaller has been done, but
it's not something that can be done by the standard Linksys utilities).

The *internal* flash on the NSLU2 most certainly has no space left for
anything useful.  That's why you cannot even run the "ipkg" command if the
NSLU2 is still running from the internal flash - the "ipkg update" command
is enough to fill it.  And since it requires a certain amount of free space
to delete on a jffs2 filesystem, when the internal flash is filled, the only
solution is to reflash the unit -- you cannot free the space up any other
way!

But an external flash device works ok.

Mike (mwester)




 
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[Øyvind Repvik]

nettsr wrote:

> --- In nslu2-linux@..., Frederic Wenzel <fred@...> wrote:
>> nettsr wrote:
>>> Since the NSLU2 has support for three more USB ports built in, would
>>> it not make sense to hardware a large USB flash drive to one of these
>>> ports? If so, couldn't Unslung use this drive to boot from, leaving
>>> both USB ports free for storing ONLY user data?
>> I don't see any reason why this shouldn't work. So if you happen to be
>> good at soldering, you could definitely connect a USB stick inside of
>> the NSLU2 and install Linux on it.
>>
>> I haven't heard of the three USB connectors inside yet, though. Is that
>> true?
>
> Most definately:
> http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/EnableExtraUSBPorts
>
> But now I'm being told that a memory stick wouldn't have enough space
> to hold any useful amount of data. I'd sure like to find out for sure
> one way or the other.
>

Beware! I'm not sure that Unslung does anything but ignore those ports.
Feel free to try, but please report your success ;-)

I know it works fine with openslug/debianslug/ucslugc, as I'm using two
of the internal ports on one of my slugs.

Regards,
Øyvind Repvik


 
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[SimpleSimon]

> > Most definately:
> > http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/EnableExtraUSBPorts
> >
> > But now I'm being told that a memory stick wouldn't have enough space
> > to hold any useful amount of data. I'd sure like to find out for sure
> > one way or the other.
> >
> Beware! I'm not sure that Unslung does anything but ignore those ports.
> Feel free to try, but please report your success ;-)
>
> I know it works fine with openslug/debianslug/ucslugc, as I'm using two
> of the internal ports on one of my slugs.

Do you mind telling us what you're doing with those extra ports?
Photos' would be great as well!







 
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[thugbpirate]

Hi, im also intrested in this mod but i need a few things cleared
up...quoting from the link: http://www.nslu2-
linux.org/wiki/HowTo/EnableExtraUSBPorts

<quote>
Ground is easy enough. You can take that from the closest USB-port.
Power is more difficult. I pulled this from a broken USB-port on my
slug, but you can't do this with a working port as you are limited
on the amount of current you can draw per port (500 mA), so unless
you are replacing a broken port it is highly recommended that you do
not connect bus powered devices to the extra ports, only devices
that have an external supply (printers, some external 3.5" HDD
racks, etc). Please take into account that each active high-speed
port also consumes an additional 50 mA.</quote>

------------------------------
so unless you are replacing a broken port it is highly recommended
that you do not connect bus powered devices to the extra ports
------------------------------

what will happen if i connect a usb stick / bluetooth adapter?

<quote>
Note that the NEC chip has two OHCI controllers, which means it
groups the USB ports into two groups for low and full speed USB
devices (this might be important if you managed to fry one of the
controllers with all its ports)</quote>

does that mean the other ports will be 1.5Mbps (low speed) and
12Mbps (full speed)

also can you if this is correct, where would i add power from?
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/6372/nslu2usb0ty.jpg

regards
tp





 
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[Attila Csipa]

On Thursday 23 March 2006 12:25, thugbpirate wrote:
> so unless you are replacing a broken port it is highly recommended
> that you do not connect bus powered devices to the extra ports
> ------------------------------
>
> what will happen if i connect a usb stick / bluetooth adapter?

I'm not sure how much current these devices draw, the point is that if you get
close to the 500mA total for a port you could have malfunctions or burn the
port/controller. IIRC both flash memory and BT adapters draw about 100-200mA.
but don't take my word for it. You should be fairly safe if you're not
stacking these (say, 3 adapters on one power source).

> Note that the NEC chip has two OHCI controllers, which means it
> groups the USB ports into two groups for low and full speed USB
>
> does that mean the other ports will be 1.5Mbps (low speed) and
> 12Mbps (full speed)

No, both high and low speed controllers are connected to the same physical USB
connector, the device gets connected to the appropriate controller after it
'negotiates' the parameters.

> also can you if this is correct, where would i add power from?
> http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/6372/nslu2usb0ty.jpg

This is a bit tricky. First of all, I'm not at all sure you can use the ground
you outlined there. Signal ground is NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME as the
shielding ground (actually never should be, but there are too many flawed
designs that connect these directly... but I digress). The two BIG soldering
points are the shielding ground. The four pins lined up are the USB pins, if
I have not gotten the orientation of the image wrong, these are, from the top
down, GND, D+, D-, Vcc.

You can connect your device's power/gnd pins to either the Vcc/GND of the USB
port, or the slugs main power feed/ground. This gives a total of four
choices, all of them bad, but some worse than others :) The USB port is
protected from short circuits, bounce, has a bit a filtering so I'd recommend
connecting power and ground from the USB PINS. This way you have the least
(but not zero !) chance of burning something down, but you also have the
limit od 500mA for the sum of power consumption of devices attached to those
power pins. Also, 500mA is the USB _standard_ limit, nobody guarantees that
the slug is actually able to deliver that much. You should be able to get
away with one extra device, but you'd be pushing your luck with more (note
that you have to fit 500 mA at the PEAK, not the average consumption which is
usually listed). The other solutions are to use to the slugs 5V or both 5V
and GND lines directly. This is SO BAD that I'm not describing it at all,
since you would be throwing out all the protection USB gives and exposing the
slug, USB peripheral and PSU to a possible nasty multi-Ampere meltdown.




 
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[Frederic Wenzel]

Øyvind Repvik wrote:
>>>> Since the NSLU2 has support for three more USB ports built in, would
>>>> it not make sense to hardware a large USB flash drive to one of these
>>>> ports? If so, couldn't Unslung use this drive to boot from, leaving
>>>> both USB ports free for storing ONLY user data?
>>
> Beware! I'm not sure that Unslung does anything but ignore those ports.
> Feel free to try, but please report your success ;-)

If it ignores them, this is a bug that should be fixed, IMHO ;)

Fred

 

[Florian Voelzke]

As I had a look at the hardware of the nslu2 itself, I have to add my 2
cents here:

Attila Csipa wrote:

> On Thursday 23 March 2006 12:25, thugbpirate wrote:
>
>>so unless you are replacing a broken port it is highly recommended
>>that you do not connect bus powered devices to the extra ports
>>------------------------------
>>
>>what will happen if i connect a usb stick / bluetooth adapter?
>
>
> I'm not sure how much current these devices draw, the point is that if you get
> close to the 500mA total for a port you could have malfunctions or burn the
> port/controller. IIRC both flash memory and BT adapters draw about 100-200mA.
> but don't take my word for it. You should be fairly safe if you're not
> stacking these (say, 3 adapters on one power source).
>

<snip>

>
>>also can you if this is correct, where would i add power from?
>>http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/6372/nslu2usb0ty.jpg
>
>
> This is a bit tricky. First of all, I'm not at all sure you can use the ground
> you outlined there. Signal ground is NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME as the
> shielding ground (actually never should be, but there are too many flawed
> designs that connect these directly... but I digress). The two BIG soldering
> points are the shielding ground. The four pins lined up are the USB pins, if
> I have not gotten the orientation of the image wrong, these are, from the top
> down, GND, D+, D-, Vcc.
>

Yes, the nslu2 has a small seperate GND copper island for the shield.
And for EMC, the connection point to the internal GND plane acts as a
small filter.

> You can connect your device's power/gnd pins to either the Vcc/GND of the USB
> port, or the slugs main power feed/ground. This gives a total of four
> choices, all of them bad, but some worse than others :) The USB port is
> protected from short circuits, bounce, has a bit a filtering so I'd recommend
> connecting power and ground from the USB PINS. This way you have the least
> (but not zero !) chance of burning something down, but you also have the
> limit od 500mA for the sum of power consumption of devices attached to those
> power pins. Also, 500mA is the USB _standard_ limit, nobody guarantees that
> the slug is actually able to deliver that much. You should be able to get
> away with one extra device, but you'd be pushing your luck with more (note
> that you have to fit 500 mA at the PEAK, not the average consumption which is
> usually listed). The other solutions are to use to the slugs 5V or both 5V
> and GND lines directly. This is SO BAD that I'm not describing it at all,
> since you would be throwing out all the protection USB gives and exposing the
> slug, USB peripheral and PSU to a possible nasty multi-Ampere meltdown.
>

What you said and what is written in the wiki is totally correct
according to the USB spec.

But on the other hand the nslu2 simply does not follow the USB spec for
the +5V power supply. It seems that the nslu2 does not have any power
management for the USB ports besides the power on - power off mechanism.

If you switch on your slug, the power input from the wall wart is
connected to the internal 5V rail. This 5V rail is directly connected to
both USB ports without any fuses or current management. (There is an
unpopulated place for a polyfuse, it is shorted with a 0R resistor.)
Power filtering is absolutely minimal (the 0R does not bring that much
filtering...). The very same 5V rail also supplies the two internal
switching converters for the processor, DRAM etc.

I did not do any deeper research if overloading the 5V or a permanent
short might destroy anything in the nslu2, but I can say that it will
survive a time limited short ;-).

To go back to the original question:
I would simply connect the power for a third (or fourth) USB port to the
power pins of USB port 1.
I think you are save if you do not sink more than 1A with all your USB
devices in sum.

But on the other hand I do not know if linksys designed the nslu2 for
2x500mA USB power. That mostly depends on the internal trace resistance
of the 5V rail and the type of transistors they used for the power
switching (Q1 and Q5) - but it is one of those SMD devices with nearly
no type marking. The wall wart I got with my NSLU2 can deliver 2A, so it
should be save for that part.

Florian




 
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[Øyvind Repvik]

Frederic Wenzel wrote:
> Øyvind Repvik wrote:
>>>>> Since the NSLU2 has support for three more USB ports built in, would
>>>>> it not make sense to hardware a large USB flash drive to one of these
>>>>> ports? If so, couldn't Unslung use this drive to boot from, leaving
>>>>> both USB ports free for storing ONLY user data?
>> Beware! I'm not sure that Unslung does anything but ignore those ports.
>> Feel free to try, but please report your success ;-)
>
> If it ignores them, this is a bug that should be fixed, IMHO ;)

I haven't tested it, so I don't know if it works or not. But if it
doesn't, fixing it is a big problem, since it's a kernel limitation.

Regards,
Øyvind Repvik

>
> Fred



 
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[Mike Westerhof (mwester)]

Frederic Wenzel wrote:
> Øyvind Repvik wrote:
>>>>> Since the NSLU2 has support for three more USB ports built in, would
>>>>> it not make sense to hardware a large USB flash drive to one of these
>>>>> ports? If so, couldn't Unslung use this drive to boot from, leaving
>>>>> both USB ports free for storing ONLY user data?
>> Beware! I'm not sure that Unslung does anything but ignore those ports.
>> Feel free to try, but please report your success ;-)
>
> If it ignores them, this is a bug that should be fixed, IMHO ;)

I haven't tested it, so I don't know if it works or not. But if it
doesn't, fixing it is a big problem, since it's a kernel limitation.

Regards,
Øyvind Repvik

>
> Fred

All right already!   I'll take a look at this.   Right now I'm still stuck
on trying to get Unslung 6.7-beta release, but I'll hack up one of my
NSLU2's (it has a bad connection near one of the USB connnectors anyway) and
see what happens.  Give me a few weeks to get to this, and I'll report back
on what the results might be.  :-)

Mike (mwester)




 
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[Øyvind Repvik]

nettsr wrote:

>>> Most definately:
>>> http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/EnableExtraUSBPorts
>>>
>>> But now I'm being told that a memory stick wouldn't have enough space
>>> to hold any useful amount of data. I'd sure like to find out for sure
>>> one way or the other.
>>>
>> Beware! I'm not sure that Unslung does anything but ignore those ports.
>> Feel free to try, but please report your success ;-)
>>
>> I know it works fine with openslug/debianslug/ucslugc, as I'm using two
>> of the internal ports on one of my slugs.
>
> Do you mind telling us what you're doing with those extra ports?
> Photos' would be great as well!

I yanked out the last mod a little while back, because I thought it
caused my slug not to boot (It wasn't the cause though). I can see if I
can dig up any pictures. The mod is very simple to do, the biggest
problem is powering it up. AFAIK, the USB spec dictates that the pullup
should be under software control, which it isn't. Anyway, a memstick
works like a charm, as does a PL2303 USB-serial converter (which I use
for a Serial LCD)

Regards,
Øyvind Repvik


 
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[Øyvind Repvik]

Mike Westerhof wrote:
[snip-o-rama]
> All right already!   I'll take a look at this.   Right now I'm still stuck
> on trying to get Unslung 6.7-beta release, but I'll hack up one of my
> NSLU2's (it has a bad connection near one of the USB connnectors anyway) and
> see what happens.  Give me a few weeks to get to this, and I'll report back
> on what the results might be.  :-)
Cool, that'd be great! :-)

Regards,
Øyvind Repvik
OpenSlug package manager



 
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[Attila Csipa]

On Thursday 23 March 2006 20:49, Frederic Wenzel wrote:
> >>>> Since the NSLU2 has support for three more USB ports built in, would
> >>>> it not make sense to hardware a large USB flash drive to one of these
> >
> > Beware! I'm not sure that Unslung does anything but ignore those ports.
> > Feel free to try, but please report your success ;-)
>
> If it ignores them, this is a bug that should be fixed, IMHO ;)

I don't know about any Unslung specifics, but unless the actively did
something to the USB drivers, everything should work as on the other
distributions - the extra ports use the same controllers as do the two
regular ports, so if you see one attached device you should see all of them.


 
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[Mike Westerhof (mwester)]

> On Thursday 23 March 2006 20:49, Frederic Wenzel wrote:
> > >>>> Since the NSLU2 has support for three more USB ports built in,
would
> > >>>> it not make sense to hardware a large USB flash drive to one of
these
> > >
> > > Beware! I'm not sure that Unslung does anything but ignore those
ports.
> > > Feel free to try, but please report your success ;-)
> >
> > If it ignores them, this is a bug that should be fixed, IMHO ;)
>
> I don't know about any Unslung specifics, but unless the actively did
> something to the USB drivers, everything should work as on the other
> distributions - the extra ports use the same controllers as do the two
> regular ports, so if you see one attached device you should see all of
them.

I think the issue will be what device the USB mass storage driver assigns to
the flash device connected to the new ports.  With the R63 firmware (and
Unslung 6), the drivers ensure that /dev/sda is assigned to the device
plugged into USB Port 2, and that /dev/sdb, sdc, sdd, sde are assigned to
whatever devices appear on USB Port 1.  So the question is, what device will
be assigned to the internal ports, and is it deterministic (if it's not
deterministic, then we cannot unsling to it.)

Mike (mwester)




 
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[tonymy01]

 
 -----Original Message-----
From: nslu2-linux@... [mailto:nslu2-linux@...] On
Behalf Of Florian Voelzke
Sent: Friday, 24 March 2006 7:09 AM
To: nslu2-linux@...
Subject: Re: [nslu2-linux] Re: Adding USB flash drive INSIDE NSLU2 on extra
USB ports?



As I had a look at the hardware of the nslu2 itself, I have to add my 2
cents here:

But on the other hand the nslu2 simply does not follow the USB spec for
the +5V power supply. It seems that the nslu2 does not have any power
management for the USB ports besides the power on - power off mechanism.

If you switch on your slug, the power input from the wall wart is
connected to the internal 5V rail. This 5V rail is directly connected to
both USB ports without any fuses or current management. (There is an
unpopulated place for a polyfuse, it is shorted with a 0R resistor.)
Power filtering is absolutely minimal (the 0R does not bring that much
filtering...). The very same 5V rail also supplies the two internal
switching converters for the processor, DRAM etc.
 

 

I discovered this to be approximately the case when putting a powered hub
into the slug.   The hub actually powers the slug!
In fact, I removed my slug power input entirely, as the powered hub will
immediately power up the slug, unlike with the way the slug power button
works, i.e. when power is first applied, it powers to standby.
So all those fancy circuits in the wiki on how to get the slug to power up
immediately after a power fail don't actually need to be built, instead all
that is needed is to feed the +5V into the USB port 1/2 in the slug (or the
5V rail if you are doing an internal mod)!!
I was having reliability issues when letting the slug power the hub and my
HDD (HDD would just stop working after some days), and these are somewhat
reduced now the hub is powered (by the same 5V brick by the way) rather than
the SLUG.
But the PL2303 onto the internal USB port sounds like the go, the whole
reason I am running a hub is that the PL2303 adapter seems to only work on a
port by itself, and I need to run 3 devices with the slug, a Topfield STB, a
HDD and the PL2303 adapter, so I had to put the HDD and Topfield onto the
hub for this combination to work.   Thanks for discussing this topic, as I
didn't realise the internal ports could be accessed.

Regards
Tony  

[Ian Epperson]

I'm contemplating putting a powered hub on my slug as well, but this
thread leaves me concerned.  Hooking up 2 power supplies in parrallel
is bad news - since this would likely be a common scenario, is one of
the two devices violating USB spec?  It seems to me that the device
with a male plug should not provide power to the socket.

Perhaps that's the difference between the $3 USB hub and the $20 one.

On 3/23/06, tonymy01 <tonymy01@...> wrote:
<snip>

> I discovered this to be approximately the case when putting a powered hub
> into the slug.   The hub actually powers the slug!
> In fact, I removed my slug power input entirely, as the powered hub will
> immediately power up the slug, unlike with the way the slug power button
> works, i.e. when power is first applied, it powers to standby.
> So all those fancy circuits in the wiki on how to get the slug to power up
> immediately after a power fail don't actually need to be built, instead all
> that is needed is to feed the +5V into the USB port 1/2 in the slug (or the
> 5V rail if you are doing an internal mod)!!
> I was having reliability issues when letting the slug power the hub and my
> HDD (HDD would just stop working after some days), and these are somewhat
> reduced now the hub is powered (by the same 5V brick by the way) rather than
> the SLUG.

--
Me, I'm not worried about the apocalypse. What *I* am worried about is
the apocalypso.

Whatever you do, DO NOT let Mr. tally man tally your bananas. You only
have to make it 'till daylight.


 
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