Adding the "links" text mode web browser to the base system

[Alan Barrett]

The NetBSD base system includes HTML versions of man pages, and
several other HTML files.  However, it does not include an application
capable of displaying such files.

I would like to add the "links" text mode web browser to the NetBSD
base system.  It has a GPLv2 licence, and I would add it under
src/external/gpl2/links, and make it install as /usr/bin/links.
A MKLINKS build-time option could prevent building it.  The i386
executable is 1064887 bytes unstripped, 1009916 bytes stripped.

In addition to its use for displaying documentation that is
distributed with the system, a web browser has obvious uses for
browsing the web.  As non-graphical browsers go, links seems to
work reasonably well.

--apb (Alan Barrett)

[Thor Lancelot Simon-2]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 01:19:52PM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
>
> The NetBSD base system includes HTML versions of man pages, and
> several other HTML files.  However, it does not include an application
> capable of displaying such files.

I objected to the stealth addition of these files to the base system and
I object to the non-stealth addition of the 1MB executable that they are
now being used to justify.

Thor

[David Laight]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 01:19:52PM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
> The NetBSD base system includes HTML versions of man pages, and
> several other HTML files.  However, it does not include an application
> capable of displaying such files.

There are other versions of the man pages - so you don't need
a web browser to read the man pages.

        David

--
David Laight: david@...

[der Mouse-3]

> The NetBSD base system includes HTML versions of man pages, and
> several other HTML files.  However, it does not include an
> application capable of displaying such files.

> I would like to add the "links" text mode web browser to the NetBSD
> base system.

I think a much better fix would be to eliminate the HTML files.  Their
content is available in much more readable forms elsewhere; an HTML
reader is not needed to read manpages, just to read those particular
manglings of them.

(I have nothing against supporting transforming manpages into HTML,
provided the proper conversion programs are installed.  I see no reason
to do so by default, I question why base is even capable of doing so,
and I think it's a really bad idea to use that mistake to justify
adding a web browser to base.  Base isn't - or shouldn't be, at least -
"everything anyone might want"; if you want Linux you know where to
find it.  Base should be, well, the _base_ system, a solid foundation
on which to build.)

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[Marc Balmer-2]

Am 31.10.2009 um 15:12 schrieb der Mouse:

>> The NetBSD base system includes HTML versions of man pages, and
>> several other HTML files.  However, it does not include an
>> application capable of displaying such files.
>
>> I would like to add the "links" text mode web browser to the NetBSD
>> base system.
>
> I think a much better fix would be to eliminate the HTML files.  Their
> content is available in much more readable forms elsewhere; an HTML
> reader is not needed to read manpages, just to read those particular
> manglings of them.

I second that.  HTML manual pages have no benefit.

<cynic>
If we add a browser to base, then we should add mozzila firefox, not  
some half-assed text based piece of crap like links...

Internet in textmode? Come one get real, the times of ASCII porn are  
gone..
</cynic>


[...]

>
> (I have nothing against supporting transforming manpages into HTML,
> provided the proper conversion programs are installed.  I see no  
> reason
> to do so by default, I question why base is even capable of doing so,
> and I think it's a really bad idea to use that mistake to justify
> adding a web browser to base.  Base isn't - or shouldn't be, at  
> least -
> "everything anyone might want"; if you want Linux you know where to
> find it.  Base should be, well, the _base_ system, a solid foundation
> on which to build.)
>
> /~\ The ASCII  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
> X  Against HTML mouse@...
> / \ Email!     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

[Matthew Mondor]

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 18:08:38 +0100
Marc Balmer <marc@...> wrote:

> > I think a much better fix would be to eliminate the HTML files.  Their
> > content is available in much more readable forms elsewhere; an HTML
> > reader is not needed to read manpages, just to read those particular
> > manglings of them.
>
> I second that.  HTML manual pages have no benefit.

Indeed, since we already have man pages in man/mdoc and a reader to
read them.  For that reason (and because users of a text mode browser
has several alternatives to chose from), I think browsers are best kept
into pkgsrc.

> <cynic>
> If we add a browser to base, then we should add mozzila firefox, not  
> some half-assed text based piece of crap like links...
>
> Internet in textmode? Come one get real, the times of ASCII porn are  
> gone..
> </cynic>

You probably mean s/internet/web/ in text mode
http://www.dgate.org/~brg/bvtelnet80/ :))

But humor aside, HTTP uses the RFC822 format which are text messages
(even RFC2822 messages are, so you can even use a telnet client :), and
the most useful parts of documents being their text in general (and
HTML can easily be rendered as text, it's a text format itself), I
don't see any problem with a text browser.  For people using a braille
screen reader, they're very useful.  Moreover, console-mode emacs can
embed a text mode browser for non roff/info/text online documentation.

That many sites ignore accessibility is another matter, but where
information has significant importance, a text browser usually
works...  And obviously fetureful popular web browsers don't run on all
systems you could run NetBSD on (oh, my toaster has no screen though :)
--
Matt

[James K. Lowden-2]

Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 01:19:52PM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
> >
> > The NetBSD base system includes HTML versions of man pages, and
> > several other HTML files.  However, it does not include an application
> > capable of displaying such files.
>
> I objected to the stealth addition of these files to the base system and
> I object to the non-stealth addition of the 1MB executable that they are
> now being used to justify.

I almost agree with you, except that I think every server should have a
client.  We have finger/fingerd, ftp/ftpd, ssh/sshd.  httpd has been in
base for years, yet we have no http client.  

I also think sysinst for one could be better implemented as a bunch of CGI
scripts....

--jkl

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 04:36:48PM -0400, James K. Lowden wrote:

> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 01:19:52PM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
> > >
> > > The NetBSD base system includes HTML versions of man pages, and
> > > several other HTML files.  However, it does not include an application
> > > capable of displaying such files.
> >
> > I objected to the stealth addition of these files to the base system and
> > I object to the non-stealth addition of the 1MB executable that they are
> > now being used to justify.
>
> I almost agree with you, except that I think every server should have a
> client.  We have finger/fingerd, ftp/ftpd, ssh/sshd.  httpd has been in
> base for years, yet we have no http client.  

That's actually not true. ftp is a client for both FTP and HTTP.

Joerg

[David Holland-6]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 01:19:52PM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
 > The NetBSD base system includes HTML versions of man pages, and
 > several other HTML files.  However, it does not include an application
 > capable of displaying such files.

That is why it includes text versions of those files. The HTML files
are there as a convenience for users who have installed a browser from
pkgsrc.

 > I would like to add the "links" text mode web browser to the NetBSD
 > base system.  It has a GPLv2 licence, and I would add it under
 > src/external/gpl2/links, and make it install as /usr/bin/links.
 > A MKLINKS build-time option could prevent building it.  The i386
 > executable is 1064887 bytes unstripped, 1009916 bytes stripped.

That is rather large for base, especially since including it in base
serves no purpose. Why not install it from pkgsrc? (Or better yet, why
not install a real browser from pkgsrc?)

--
David A. Holland
dholland@...

[Ephaeton]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:30:38PM +0000, David Holland wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 01:19:52PM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
>  > (...)  The i386
>  > executable is 1064887 bytes unstripped, 1009916 bytes stripped.
>
> That is rather large for base, especially since including it in base
> serves no purpose. Why not install it from pkgsrc? (Or better yet, why
> not install a real browser from pkgsrc?)

Oh really. When was the last time you have measured /usr/share/man/html* ?
It's way larger, could be done without including it in base, serves no
purpose, could be generated with a later-on transformation (or better yet,
ordered as paper copy with a script from pkgsrc).

Ridiculous.

-Martin

[matthew sporleder]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 7:51 AM, Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@...> wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 01:19:52PM +0200, Alan Barrett wrote:
>>
>> The NetBSD base system includes HTML versions of man pages, and
>> several other HTML files.  However, it does not include an application
>> capable of displaying such files.
>
> I objected to the stealth addition of these files to the base system and
> I object to the non-stealth addition of the 1MB executable that they are
> now being used to justify.

I agree.  I have to delete these files just so 5.x fits on my box.

[der Mouse-3]

> httpd has been in base for years,

It has?  Which one?  Where?  I can't find it under 4.0.1; is it more
recent than that?

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[Matthew Mondor]

On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:09:42 -0400 (EDT)
der Mouse <mouse@...> wrote:

> > httpd has been in base for years,
>
> It has?  Which one?  Where?  I can't find it under 4.0.1; is it more
> recent than that?

src/libexec/httpd/ on netbsd-5+ (but NetBSD 5.0 was officially released
only around April 2009 :)
--
Matt

[kre-2]

    Date:        Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:09:42 -0400 (EDT)
    From:        der Mouse <mouse@...>
    Message-ID:  <200911010113.VAA13015@...>

  | It has?  Which one?  Where?  I can't find it under 4.0.1; is it more
  | recent than that?

It appeared in one of the 4.99.*'s - it is in NetBSD 5, not in NetBSD 4.
(/usr/src/libexec/httpd - it is bozohttpd, so it is pretty small).

kre

[Lucio De Re]

James K. Lowden:
> I also think sysinst for one could be better implemented as a bunch of CGI
> scripts....

I should think no one is stopping you.

++L

[Thor Lancelot Simon-2]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 04:36:48PM -0400, James K. Lowden wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> >
> > I objected to the stealth addition of these files to the base system and
> > I object to the non-stealth addition of the 1MB executable that they are
> > now being used to justify.
>
> I almost agree with you, except that I think every server should have a
> client.  We have finger/fingerd, ftp/ftpd, ssh/sshd.  httpd has been in
> base for years, yet we have no http client.  

That's simply false.  ftp(1) is an http client.

Thor

[Michael van Elst]

mouse@... (der Mouse) writes:

>> httpd has been in base for years,

>It has?  Which one?  Where?  I can't find it under 4.0.1; is it more
>recent than that?

Since

date: 2007/10/16 01:14:01

in -current. The first release containing bozohttpd is netbsd-5.

--
--
                                Michael van Elst
Internet: mlelstv@...
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."

[David Brownlee]

2009/10/31 James K. Lowden <jklowden@...>:
>
> I almost agree with you, except that I think every server should have a
> client.  We have finger/fingerd, ftp/ftpd, ssh/sshd.  httpd has been in
> base for years, yet we have no http client.
>
> I also think sysinst for one could be better implemented as a bunch of CGI
> scripts....

I think a more general comment might be that the actual sysinst
operations would be better implemented as a library which could be
hooked into a cgi, curses or x11 interface :)

I *do* like the idea of a NetBSD install/upgrade option that could be
performed from a remote web browser as well as locally (assuming a
network interface), and in fact could even run without accessing the
console at all (thinking of the existing recover CD for NetBSD/cobalt
Qube boxes which do not have consoles, or even remote upgrades for
hosted boxes where all you have is remote reboot and net access). On
the other hand the 'remote' facility could just as well be provided
with the existing sysinst by building sshd into the ramdisk image...
(both require some way of setting a password on or for the image)

Its all down to someone with the time and desire to scratch that itch.

Back on topic - this sort of question (what should be in base) will
keep coming round every so often, and over time the answers may
change, and while I think a simple visual text http client should make
the cut today that view is obviously not universally held.

I don't know what the best way of determining this would be, the
obvious ones would be a decision by core or a poll of developers
(possibly whether to take a poll should be determined by core),
including an "if the answer is no we should not revisit this for at
least N years". I personally would be happy to abide by either option.

[Geert Hendrickx]

On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 12:06:29PM +0000, David Brownlee wrote:
> 2009/10/31 James K. Lowden <jklowden@...>:
> > I also think sysinst for one could be better implemented as a
> > bunch of CGI scripts....
>
> I think a more general comment might be that the actual sysinst
> operations would be better implemented as a library which could
> be hooked into a cgi, curses or x11 interface :)


You mean something like this?

http://www.bsdinstaller.org/


        Geert


--
Geert Hendrickx  -=-  ghen@...  -=-  PGP: 0xC4BB9E9F
This e-mail was composed using 100% recycled spam messages!

[David Brownlee]

2009/11/2 Geert Hendrickx <ghen@...>:

>>
>> I think a more general comment might be that the actual sysinst
>> operations would be better implemented as a library which could
>> be hooked into a cgi, curses or x11 interface :)
>
>
> You mean something like this?
>
> http://www.bsdinstaller.org/
>

Interesting (and lua based :)

Do you know the minimum footprint for the bsdinstaller? I'm thinking
about a curses only version for small memory boxes.