Advice needed - dispute regarding names in Cyprus

[David Janda]

Thanks for the reply.

In the example of the village I am in I now have:

name=Ozanköy
name:gr=Kazaphani
name:tr=Ozanköy
old_name=Kazaphani
place=village
is_in=Cyprus

The "problem" as I see it is that the principle name tag is the Turkish name
which although in use for 30 years will not be acceptable to some ......

Hence the reason why I believe the user keeps changing it.

Also, is_in in Turkish would be Kibris, not Cyprus. What to do about that?

I hate to say this, but it is a sensitive issue and politics are at hand
here!

djanda



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[Martijn van Oosterhout-2]

On Nov 9, 2007 9:44 AM, David Janda <dj@...> wrote:
> I hate to say this, but it is a sensitive issue and politics are at hand
> here!

The only way you're going to get out of this is by talking to the
person doing it. Come to a compromise, no amount of adjudication is
going to solve your problem here...

Have a nice day,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@...> http://svana.org/kleptog/

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[David Earl]

On 09/11/2007 08:44, David Janda wrote:

> Thanks for the reply.
>
> In the example of the village I am in I now have:
>
> name=Ozanköy
> name:gr=Kazaphani
> name:tr=Ozanköy
> old_name=Kazaphani
> place=village
> is_in=Cyprus
>
> The "problem" as I see it is that the principle name tag is the Turkish name
> which although in use for 30 years will not be acceptable to some ......
>
> Hence the reason why I believe the user keeps changing it.
>
> I hate to say this, but it is a sensitive issue and politics are at hand
> here!

How about putting
   name=Ozanköy/Kazaphani
or vice-versa (and leaving the name:... as they are) and see if that is
acceptable to your counter-editor.

David


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[Hakan Tandogan]

On Fri, November 9, 2007 09:08, David Janda wrote:
> In the example of the village I am in I now have:
>
> name=Ozanköy

I always thought that "name" should be the name that is used by the people
living in the actual location...

I just looked at the

> name:gr=Kazaphani

Please use "name:el=Kazaphani", the :gr was my mistake.

> name:tr=Ozanköy
> old_name=Kazaphani
> place=village
> is_in=Cyprus
>
> The "problem" as I see it is that the principle name tag is the Turkish
> name which although in use for 30 years will not be acceptable to some
> ......

Welcome to the ugly world of politics. I still hope that the other guy
will be mature about this and realize that we are building a map and don't
express our political views :-(

By the way, the Node
http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/node/103661731/history , which is the
only place node I can find in that area, has only your changes. Does the
other guy delete your place nodes and create fresh ones?

> Also, is_in in Turkish would be Kibris, not Cyprus. What to do about
> that?

The places I mapped in Turkey have "is_in=Turkey", I'm using the english
name here. You can additionally use is_in:tr=Kıbrıs (Please use the

There is the relation
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Relations/Proposed/Is_In , I just
added the Localization there, too


Regards,
Hakan

--
The key to immortality is first living a life worth remembering...



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[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> The "problem" as I see it is that the principle name tag is the  
> Turkish name
> which although in use for 30 years will not be acceptable to  
> some ......

[...]

> I hate to say this, but it is a sensitive issue and politics are at  
> hand
> here!

My response to this would be to just leave it alone. If someone wants  
to pick a fight, just go elsewhere. I know this might not sound  
satisfacory for you but there are lots of unmapped places in Greece  
and Turkey that deserve attention, and where you're unlikely to stir  
up political issues by mapping them.

Maps have always had a political component and sooner or later we ar  
going to have a lot of trouble with situations like this, and such  
local mapping conflicts can easily lead to ill-tempered vandalism all  
over the place. What we'll need, in the end, to do everyone justice  
is the option of opening up "parallel universes" in our database so  
that if someone downloads Cyprus a requester pops up saying "do you  
want the Greek or the Turkish world view?". But that is still far away.

In the mean time I would try to steer away from any kind of conflict.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik@...  ##  N49°00.09' E008°23.33'



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[David Janda]

 
> I always thought that "name" should be the name that is used by the people
living in the actual location...

So did I, after all, anyone using OSM in the area I am living in to navigate
will not see the Greek names signposted anywhere.

> Please use "name:el=Kazaphani", the :gr was my mistake.

Have done so.

> Welcome to the ugly world of politics. I still hope that the other guy
will be mature about this and realize that we are > building a map and don't
express our political views :-(

Agreed. But user_7363 is still overwriting the primary name with the Greek
one using Poltach. Is there a way to contact them?

> By the way, the Node
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/node/103661731/history , which is the
only place node I can find in that area, has > > only your changes. Does the
other guy delete your place nodes and create fresh ones?

On occasion, yes.



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[SteveC-2]

Is anyone aware of an edit war before this? If not, this is our first  
edit war :-)


On 9 Nov 2007, at 13:11, David Janda wrote:

>
>> I always thought that "name" should be the name that is used by the  
>> people
> living in the actual location...
>
> So did I, after all, anyone using OSM in the area I am living in to  
> navigate
> will not see the Greek names signposted anywhere.
>
>> Please use "name:el=Kazaphani", the :gr was my mistake.
>
> Have done so.
>
>> Welcome to the ugly world of politics. I still hope that the other  
>> guy
> will be mature about this and realize that we are > building a map  
> and don't
> express our political views :-(
>
> Agreed. But user_7363 is still overwriting the primary name with the  
> Greek
> one using Poltach. Is there a way to contact them?
>
>> By the way, the Node
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/node/103661731/history , which  
>> is the
> only place node I can find in that area, has > > only your changes.  
> Does the
> other guy delete your place nodes and create fresh ones?
>
> On occasion, yes.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk@...
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

have fun,

SteveC | steve@... | http://www.asklater.com/steve/



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[tim waters "chippy"]

"Here be politics"

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[Jon Bright]

Steve Coast wrote:
> Is anyone aware of an edit war before this? If not, this is our first  
> edit war :-)

I look forward to when we can have our first revert war :-)

--
Jon Bright
Silicon Circus Ltd.
http://www.siliconcircus.com

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[Hakan Tandogan]

On Fri, November 9, 2007 14:11, David Janda wrote:
>
> Agreed. But user_7363 is still overwriting the primary name with the
> Greek one using Poltach. Is there a way to contact them?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/user_7363



Regards,
Hakan

--
The key to immortality is first living a life worth remembering...



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[Hakan Tandogan]

On Fri, November 9, 2007 14:45, Jon Bright wrote:
> Steve Coast wrote:
>
>> Is anyone aware of an edit war before this? If not, this is our first
>> edit war :-)
>
> I look forward to when we can have our first revert war :-)

In the Wikipedia, the original article doesn't get deleted. In our case,
the parties in the edit war can delete the "offending" node and recreate a
new one on the same location, effectively removing history (you can't get
the history if you don't know the node id).

A sad state of things, but such is politics :-(


Regards,
Hakan

--
The key to immortality is first living a life worth remembering...



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[Rodrigo Moya]

On Fri, 2007-11-09 at 10:44 +0200, David Janda wrote:

> Thanks for the reply.
>
> In the example of the village I am in I now have:
>
> name=Ozanköy
> name:gr=Kazaphani
> name:tr=Ozanköy
> old_name=Kazaphani
> place=village
> is_in=Cyprus
>
> The "problem" as I see it is that the principle name tag is the Turkish name
> which although in use for 30 years will not be acceptable to some ......
>
> Hence the reason why I believe the user keeps changing it.
>
> Also, is_in in Turkish would be Kibris, not Cyprus. What to do about that?
>
> I hate to say this, but it is a sensitive issue and politics are at hand
> here!
>

in Spain there are some regions with 2 official languages, so to avoid
problems, we've been using the official naming. That is, if the name of
the places/streets are in 2 languages (in lots of places), we use that
as name=, if not just use the one used locally. If someone outside the
village complains, you can just send him/her to the local
authorities :-)
--
Rodrigo Moya <rodrigo@...>


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In message <000001c822d1$fdc710d0$1fe89152@kibris1>
        David Janda <dj@...> wrote:

> Agreed. But user_7363 is still overwriting the primary name with the Greek
> one using Poltach. Is there a way to contact them?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/message/new/7363

Tom

--
Tom Hughes (tom@...)
http://www.compton.nu/

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[bvh]

On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 10:08:24AM +0100, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
> > I hate to say this, but it is a sensitive issue and politics are at hand
> > here!
> The only way you're going to get out of this is by talking to the
> person doing it. Come to a compromise, no amount of adjudication is
> going to solve your problem here...

I don't think that is a helpfull advise. There are some spots in
the world (and this island is one of them) where there is no agreement
on the status of certain areas. And maybe you can find
individuals from both sides who are willing to agree, an open
project like OpenStreetMap will always attract people who are not
going to agree.

So I think we need to have some official workaround here.

The only workeable solution will be to in the end not show any names
by default for certain areas until the user has selected a
language/political preference. Bonus points if that choice is
partly automated (looking at the http headers and what not)

cu bart

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[Mikel Maron]

Talking is exactly the kind of outcome we'd hope to see I think .. nothing wrong with dialogue!

There are many situations like, disputed names and disputed borders, around the world. Bodies like the UN are well aware of all these geographical disputes, but don't publicly release data about these places for fear of sparking diplomatic upset. So these disputes simmer in semi-shadows. Openness is needed!

Why can't the map be a forum for discussion? It would be excellent to see some dialogue come out of this mini edit-war. Any forum is going to attract people who don't agree -- but an open one is especially useful for fostering understanding. I encourage you to get in touch here, and I for one would be eager to hear about how it goes.

Does this mean that talking among Cyprus mappers is going to lead to political settlement or even agreement on names in OSM? I don't expect so. The best result is likely to be agreeing to disagree, and I suppose OSM is going to need to support a solution -- I'd suggest displaying both disputed names.

-Mikel

----- Original Message ----
From: bvh <bvh-osm@...>
To: talk@...
Sent: Friday, November 9, 2007 3:38:40 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Advice needed - dispute regarding names in Cyprus


On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 10:08:24AM +0100, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:
> > I hate to say this, but it is a sensitive issue and politics are at
 hand
> > here!
> The only way you're going to get out of this is by talking to the
> person doing it. Come to a compromise, no amount of adjudication is
> going to solve your problem here...

I don't think that is a helpfull advise. There are some spots in
the world (and this island is one of them) where there is no agreement
on the status of certain areas. And maybe you can find
individuals from both sides who are willing to agree, an open
project like OpenStreetMap will always attract people who are not
going to agree.

So I think we need to have some official workaround here.

The only workeable solution will be to in the end not show any names
by default for certain areas until the user has selected a
language/political preference. Bonus points if that choice is
partly automated (looking at the http headers and what not)

cu bart

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[Nic Roets-3]

> The only workeable solution will be to in the end not show any names
> by default for certain areas until the user has selected a
> language/political preference. Bonus points if that choice is
> partly automated (looking at the http headers and what not)

Remember that we aren't really drawing maps for people who know the
area. We're drawing maps for tourists (or netcitizens) who are not
informed by about the local political situation. I think mappers
should use the description that a tourguide or journalists would use,
which may well be something like
name=The Disputed City Of ...
name:el=...
name:tk=...
(Perhaps "The Disputed ... Of" can be shortened into an icon).
And it there still is a dispute, a simple way to break disputes would
be let a mapper or a panel of mappers from a foreign independent
country decide.

If the Greek and Turkish do not like this, they can pay for their own
servers and set up their own OSM project.

I also live in a city with a "disputed" name called "Pretoria" by some
and "Tshwane" by others. And I can tell you that it gets to a point
where a lot of people want to change the name just to lift the cloud.
People show their colours when their request or resist name changes
for petty reasons. Most people feel hurt if they find out that the
rest of the world view them as "bullies" or "racists".

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[Nic Roets-3]

> The only workeable solution will be to in the end not show any names
> by default for certain areas until the user has selected a
> language/political preference. Bonus points if that choice is
> partly automated (looking at the http headers and what not)

Remember that we aren't really drawing maps for people who know the
area. We're drawing maps for tourists (or netcitizens) who are not
informed by about the local political situation. I think mappers
should use the description that a tourguide or journalists would use,
which may well be something like
name=The Disputed City Of ...
name:el=...
name:tk=...
(Perhaps "The Disputed ... Of" can be shortened into an icon).
And it there still is a dispute, a simple way to break disputes would
be let a mapper or a panel of mappers from a foreign independent
country decide.

If the Greek and Turkish do not like this, they can pay for their own
servers and set up their own OSM project.

I also live in a city with a "disputed" name called "Pretoria" by some
and "Tshwane" by others. And I can tell you that it gets to a point
where a lot of people want to change the name just to lift the cloud.
People show their colours when their request or resist name changes
for petty reasons. Most people feel hurt if they find out that the
rest of the world view them as "bullies" or "racists".

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