Advice on Multiple Volume Settings

[Kenneth Jacker-3]

I want to ask the "experts" on this mailing list a question I've had
for years.  It involves "best practices" for the multiple volume
settings available on most computer systems ...

Say I am playing an audio stream from 'last.fm'.

The way I see it, there are *four* different possible volume settings:
"line" (e.g., PCM) volume, application (e.g., Rhythmbox, TVTime, ...)
volume, mixer "master" volume, and speaker volume.

I would guess that the last (speaker) volume should be set (dynamically
when needed) to whatever is currently most appropriate for the listener.

But what about the other three?  Should they all be set at 50%?
If not, what other values should be used?  

Can anyone give some guidelines?


Thanks for your comments!
--
Prof Kenneth H Jacker       khj@...
Computer Science Dept       www.cs.appstate.edu/~khj
Appalachian State Univ
Boone, NC  28608  USA        

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[Eric Steinberg]

Usually I set up my gain structure the same way that I would with a hardware signal chain- everything that's static is at about 80%, then the last fader in the chain is what I use for a volume control.  But 50% is fine too- it's just that 80% sort of visually corresponds to where "unity" is on most hardware faders.

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Jacker <khj@...> wrote:

I want to ask the "experts" on this mailing list a question I've had
for years.  It involves "best practices" for the multiple volume
settings available on most computer systems ...

Say I am playing an audio stream from 'last.fm'.

The way I see it, there are *four* different possible volume settings:
"line" (e.g., PCM) volume, application (e.g., Rhythmbox, TVTime, ...)
volume, mixer "master" volume, and speaker volume.

I would guess that the last (speaker) volume should be set (dynamically
when needed) to whatever is currently most appropriate for the listener.

But what about the other three?  Should they all be set at 50%?
If not, what other values should be used?

Can anyone give some guidelines?


Thanks for your comments!
--
Prof Kenneth H Jacker       khj@...
Computer Science Dept       www.cs.appstate.edu/~khj
Appalachian State Univ
Boone, NC  28608  USA

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[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Jacker<khj@...> wrote:

> I want to ask the "experts" on this mailing list a question I've had
> for years.  It involves "best practices" for the multiple volume
> settings available on most computer systems ...
>
> Say I am playing an audio stream from 'last.fm'.
>
> The way I see it, there are *four* different possible volume settings:
> "line" (e.g., PCM) volume, application (e.g., Rhythmbox, TVTime, ...)
> volume, mixer "master" volume, and speaker volume.
>
> I would guess that the last (speaker) volume should be set (dynamically
> when needed) to whatever is currently most appropriate for the listener.
>
> But what about the other three?  Should they all be set at 50%?
> If not, what other values should be used?
>
> Can anyone give some guidelines?
>
>
> Thanks for your comments!
> --
> Prof Kenneth H Jacker       khj@...
> Computer Science Dept       www.cs.appstate.edu/~khj
> Appalachian State Univ
> Boone, NC  28608  USA
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-audio-user mailing list
> Linux-audio-user@...
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user
>

Simple - Keep every 'early' volume control in the chain as high as you
can without creating clipping or distortion at that stage. This keeps
signal to noise as good as you can for this audio data. Set your last
volume control to a level you want to listen to. (Depends on the size
of the power amp and efficiency of your speakers.

Typically for me doing this right requires some understanding of how
much overhead any given stage can tolerate. If I have VU's then I
might strive for some level averaging anywhere from 0 to -6. If I
don't have VUs then I'll do this by ear or maybe use some equipment
(software or hardware) to measure system response if I think it's
important. Most of the time it isn't so I'll try pushing a stage hard
with loud material until I think I hear some problems and then I'll
back off by some amount. If you do ti this way it's important to NOT
set the later stages loud as the distorion I hear might be from a
later stage and not the one I'm adjusting.

Hope this helps,
Mark
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["Bearcat M." Şandor]

On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 10:28 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Jacker<khj@...> wrote:
> > I want to ask the "experts" on this mailing list a question I've had
> > for years.  It involves "best practices" for the multiple volume
> > settings available on most computer systems ...
> >
> > Say I am playing an audio stream from 'last.fm'.
> >
> > The way I see it, there are *four* different possible volume settings:
> > "line" (e.g., PCM) volume, application (e.g., Rhythmbox, TVTime, ...)
> > volume, mixer "master" volume, and speaker volume.
> >
> > I would guess that the last (speaker) volume should be set (dynamically
> > when needed) to whatever is currently most appropriate for the listener.
> >
> > But what about the other three?  Should they all be set at 50%?
> > If not, what other values should be used?
> >
> > Can anyone give some guidelines?
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your comments!
> > --
> > Prof Kenneth H Jacker       khj@...
> > Computer Science Dept       www.cs.appstate.edu/~khj
> > Appalachian State Univ
> > Boone, NC  28608  USA
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-audio-user mailing list
> > Linux-audio-user@...
> > http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user
> >
>

One of my pet peeves (and i'm sure for many of you as well) is the
"loudness wars", that is the setting of levels close to digital 0 in the
recording studio.  If i set my pcm and other volumes to 100% in the alsa
mixer am i in fact doing the same thing at home?

Bearcat M. Sandor

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[Patrick Shirkey]

On 08/20/2009 09:45 AM, Bearcat M. Şandor wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-08-19 at 10:28 -0700, Mark Knecht wrote:
>    
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Kenneth Jacker<khj@...>  wrote:
>>      
>>> I want to ask the "experts" on this mailing list a question I've had
>>> for years.  It involves "best practices" for the multiple volume
>>> settings available on most computer systems ...
>>>
>>> Say I am playing an audio stream from 'last.fm'.
>>>
>>> The way I see it, there are *four* different possible volume settings:
>>> "line" (e.g., PCM) volume, application (e.g., Rhythmbox, TVTime, ...)
>>> volume, mixer "master" volume, and speaker volume.
>>>
>>> I would guess that the last (speaker) volume should be set (dynamically
>>> when needed) to whatever is currently most appropriate for the listener.
>>>
>>> But what about the other three?  Should they all be set at 50%?
>>> If not, what other values should be used?
>>>
>>> Can anyone give some guidelines?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your comments!
>>> --
>>> Prof Kenneth H Jacker       khj@...
>>> Computer Science Dept       www.cs.appstate.edu/~khj
>>> Appalachian State Univ
>>> Boone, NC  28608  USA
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Linux-audio-user mailing list
>>> Linux-audio-user@...
>>> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user
>>>
>>>        
>>      
> One of my pet peeves (and i'm sure for many of you as well) is the
> "loudness wars", that is the setting of levels close to digital 0 in the
> recording studio.  If i set my pcm and other volumes to 100% in the alsa
> mixer am i in fact doing the same thing at home?
>
>    

You are making it more likely. It depends how many signals and vu
controllers are in the chain.

Generally it's better to turn the speakers up manually than alsamixer or
application volume. However sometimes you may need to adjust anywhere
along the chain.

I find it varies dramatically with youtube and vlc and sometimes I have
to crank things up to max with the TV remote. Other times I have to push
the mixer up to max and other times it's just a case of the application
settings being too low. Either way I find I am constantly adjusting the
levels to meet the situation. I enjoy that process though so maybe I
subconsciously make it harder for myself than it needs to be just to
gets some extra kicks in my day...




Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd




> Bearcat M. Sandor
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Linux-audio-user@...
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-audio-user
>    
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>I find it varies dramatically with youtube and vlc and sometimes I have
>to crank things up to max with the TV remote. Other times I have to push
>the mixer up to max and other times it's just a case of the application
>settings being too low. Either way I find I am constantly adjusting the
>levels to meet the situation. I enjoy that process though so maybe I
>subconsciously make it harder for myself than it needs to be just to
>gets some extra kicks in my day...
>
>
>
>
>Patrick Shirkey
>Boost Hardware Ltd
>

ahh.. the art of mastering .. would be nice if people learnt it then you wouldn't
have to worry about moving your volume up and down..
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[Arnold Krille-3]

Hi,

On Thursday 20 August 2009 01:45:32 Bearcat M. Şandor wrote:
> One of my pet peeves (and i'm sure for many of you as well) is the
> "loudness wars", that is the setting of levels close to digital 0 in the
> recording studio.  If i set my pcm and other volumes to 100% in the alsa
> mixer am i in fact doing the same thing at home?

No, you are not. This is about generic volume in listening environment, not
about mastering the volume of a piece of music.
You actually want to set all the volumes apart from the last one to a high
value. Otherwise if the first level is down and you have to turn up the later
ones to hear something, you amplify the noise more then needed. If all volumes
are up and you only turn the last one down, the noise introduced by all
previous gain-stages is reduced too.

Some times its not practical to control the over-all-listening-volume at the
last stage (which would be the knob at the back of the active monitors), but
the main control should be one of the last volume-controls in the chain.

Have fun,

Arnold



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[hollunder]

On Thu, 20 Aug 2009 10:01:27 +0200
Arnold Krille <arnold@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thursday 20 August 2009 01:45:32 Bearcat M. Şandor wrote:
> > One of my pet peeves (and i'm sure for many of you as well) is the
> > "loudness wars", that is the setting of levels close to digital 0
> > in the recording studio.  If i set my pcm and other volumes to 100%
> > in the alsa mixer am i in fact doing the same thing at home?
>
> No, you are not. This is about generic volume in listening
> environment, not about mastering the volume of a piece of music.
> You actually want to set all the volumes apart from the last one to a
> high value. Otherwise if the first level is down and you have to turn
> up the later ones to hear something, you amplify the noise more then
> needed. If all volumes are up and you only turn the last one down,
> the noise introduced by all previous gain-stages is reduced too.
>
> Some times its not practical to control the over-all-listening-volume
> at the last stage (which would be the knob at the back of the active
> monitors), but the main control should be one of the last
> volume-controls in the chain.
>
> Have fun,
>
> Arnold

I think the interesting part in here is whether it matters if all
controls are set to maximum _in_software_. Are there parts in the
software audio chain where it should or shouldn't be at 100%?
The individual chains are different but it should be possible to know
if it's a good idea for the individual parts, like alsa, PA,
applications, ...

Philipp
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[Arnold Krille-3]

On Thursday 20 August 2009 13:09:28 hollunder@... wrote:
> I think the interesting part in here is whether it matters if all
> controls are set to maximum _in_software_. Are there parts in the
> software audio chain where it should or shouldn't be at 100%?
> The individual chains are different but it should be possible to know
> if it's a good idea for the individual parts, like alsa, PA,
> applications, ...

In software it should be set high enough everywhere so that the final digital
stream that gets converted makes optimal use of the DAC dynamic range: As high
as possible so you don't loose your music in the noise, but as low as needed
so you don't get distortion from clipping. This is best controlled by the final
software-volume control directly before going to the soundcard. All the others
should be at 100% (= no change in the volume aka volume-factor of 1).
If multiple apps / usages should have multiple volumes, then the loudest one
should be at max and the others mixed accordingly.

But be aware that the volume fader some apps provide is not the volume of that
app but of master or pcm on the soundcard (if they picked the right channel
while trying to be smarter then the user).

Have fun,

Arnold


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[Kenneth Jacker-3]

It is with considerable regret and much embarrassment that I am
only now writing regarding all the posted responses to my *ancient*
(2009 Aug 19!) query!   :(

I really *do* appreciate all the suggestions from many of this
ML's members.

Overall, it appears that the situation is quite complex:
volume, hardware/software, s/n ratio, distortion, DACs, etc.

I.e., no easy answer or "best practice".

These comments, however, seemed to stand out:

 | Patrick Shirkey <pshirkey@...>
 |
 |  Either way I find I am constantly adjusting the levels
 |   to meet the situation.

and

 | Arnold Krille <arnold@...>
 |
 |  You actually want to set all the volumes apart from the last one
 |   to a high value.

Time permitting, I intend to re-read all the comments and try to
decide on just what approach I will take.

Again, sorry for the long delay, and *thanks* for all those who took
the time to share their experiences with me and the ML!

  -Kenneth

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