After the InstallFest is over...

[steve jenkin-2]

Folks,

I was going to post a note (below) thinking out loud about supporting
new users, until I realised my concerns aren't burning issues and might
never be so.

There are times where problems are completely beyond owners and they
need hands-on help. In the early days of CLUG, this was a major feature
of the monthly meeting...

Should the monthly meeting notice explicitly state "Bring your problem
systems"? Or am I presuming too much on behalf of our resident experts?

Currently we muddle along and there's no evidence of needing change...
I'd like to avoid losing people because they don't know where/how to ask
for help.

I also raised an issue below about dial-up and home networks.

It took me a while to realise I always need *two* working systems at
home, especially when I moved to broadband. Things *will* break, and you
need to be prepared, otherwise it's a real drama. (You need the 'Net to
diagnose and fix the problem, but can't get there.)

Perhaps this message (and 'dial up is NOT cheaper') could be pushed at
InstallFests?

Comments anyone?

cheers
steve



=============================================

Talking to Keith yesterday built on comments by Dr Denise Bates last
month on getting new users onto Linux.

It raised a few questions for me about "what next" in terms of help and
support - which includes home network setup (& ADSL not dial-up!).

Does anyone have a link to good resource on "why dial-up is no longer a
good idea"?
Especially, keep have a stable laptop/desktop for browsing/email and use
other cheap systems to experiment with.

[In the Windows world, there are enough local computer shops around that
will re-install Winders when it breaks for people to perceive it being
well supported.
Re-install seems to be the favourite technical 'solution' to winders
system problems.]

How do we offer these new folk an essential feature of CLUG from the
early days - a place to come with hardware/system questions, get good
Internet access (downloads etc) and have people ahead of them on the
learning curve help out?

Phrasing it like that: didn't we already cover this question on list in
the last few months?

We can't do more than we can do - and I don't get the impression of
'newbie' hordes demanding attention.

The only scenario I can imagine where we do get swamped with new users
is if we actively promote Linux to the community (and are wildly
successful), or something 'big & bad' gets reported in the media abt
running Microsoft and a bunch of ordinary decide to take on Linux.

One of which is self-created, the other very unlikely.

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[Alex Satrapa-5]

On 21/10/2009, at 09:42 , steve jenkin wrote:

> Perhaps this message (and 'dial up is NOT cheaper') could be pushed at
> InstallFests?

How is dial up not cheaper than broadband?

For someone who isn't addicted to Wikipedia, Slashdot and Instant  
Messaging, it's relatively easy to get by with less than an hour a day  
of Internet access.

Alex

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[Peter Barker-2]

On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Alex Satrapa wrote:

>> Perhaps this message (and 'dial up is NOT cheaper') could be pushed at
>> InstallFests?
> How is dial up not cheaper than broadband?

> For someone who isn't addicted to Wikipedia, Slashdot and Instant Messaging,
> it's relatively easy to get by with less than an hour a day of Internet
> access.

Cheaper $-wise, assuming you're not valuing your time at anything (which
may be reasonable).

iinet is $20 for the dialup you describe, $30 for ADSL 2+.

ADSL2+ gives you the opportunity of saving money on telephone calls by
using VOIP - making the numbers closer still.

> Alex

Yours,
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[Alex Satrapa-5]

On 21/10/2009, at 10:44 , Peter Barker wrote:

> Cheaper $-wise, assuming you're not valuing your time at anything  
> (which may be reasonable).

If you are valuing your time at more than $0/hr, why are you spending  
so much time on the intarwebs?

You don't need to be online to write code, maintain the garden, write  
your novel, redraft a thesis, prepare responses to a dozen emails, or  
do any number of other productive tasks.

So in fact the feeling that you *must* be online all the time means  
you value your time in negative dollars per hour (ie: you feel you  
need to pay someone else for your existence).

Alex


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[Lana Brindley]

2009/10/21 Alex Satrapa <alexsatrapa@...>:

> On 21/10/2009, at 10:44 , Peter Barker wrote:
>
>> Cheaper $-wise, assuming you're not valuing your time at anything (which
>> may be reasonable).
>
> If you are valuing your time at more than $0/hr, why are you spending so
> much time on the intarwebs?
>
> You don't need to be online to write code, maintain the garden, write your
> novel, redraft a thesis, prepare responses to a dozen emails, or do any
> number of other productive tasks.
>
> So in fact the feeling that you *must* be online all the time means you
> value your time in negative dollars per hour (ie: you feel you need to pay
> someone else for your existence).
>
> Alex
>

Which is all well and good, but what about those of us who require an
internet connection to be able to do their jobs? If I have no internet
connection, my earning potential is $0/hour. So I put a very high
price on connectivity. Which was fun when I mowed my telephone cable
on the weekend ... (who lays telephone cable over grass, anyway?
Grrr!)

Just sayin' ;)

L


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[Steve Walsh-2]

sadly, It's not that clear cut.

It's hard to ssh into a client's machine to check out a mail problem
without an internet connection. Ditto to send an email to a supplier
querying the status of my new servers. Checking to see the strange error
a client is getting when they visit their website is near impossible
without an active internet connection.

Some jobs require connectivity to happen, there's just no escaping it.


On 10/21/2009 11:02 AM, Alex Satrapa wrote:

> On 21/10/2009, at 10:44 , Peter Barker wrote:
>
>> Cheaper $-wise, assuming you're not valuing your time at anything
>> (which may be reasonable).
>
> If you are valuing your time at more than $0/hr, why are you spending
> so much time on the intarwebs?
>
> You don't need to be online to write code, maintain the garden, write
> your novel, redraft a thesis, prepare responses to a dozen emails, or
> do any number of other productive tasks.
>
> So in fact the feeling that you *must* be online all the time means
> you value your time in negative dollars per hour (ie: you feel you
> need to pay someone else for your existence).
>
> Alex
>
>

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[Steve Walsh-2]

On 10/21/2009 11:10 AM, Lana Brindley wrote:
> ... (who lays telephone cable over grass, anyway? Grrr!)

I'm going to go with "Someone in or around your household?" for $25


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[Lana Brindley]

2009/10/21 Steve Walsh <steve@...>:
>
>
> On 10/21/2009 11:10 AM, Lana Brindley wrote:
>>
>> ... (who lays telephone cable over grass, anyway? Grrr!)
>
> I'm going to go with "Someone in or around your household?" for $25
>

No, try "Telstra".

Seriously.

L


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Cheers! Lana

Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
  - Mark Twain

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[Francis Whittle-2]

You don't mean "Telstra" as in "There's a rodent hole here, let's route
a comms cable through it" Telstra do you?  Not them, never ;P

"I don't think this line's long enough yet, the carrier still has a
usuable SNR"

On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 11:23 +1100, Lana Brindley wrote:

> 2009/10/21 Steve Walsh <steve@...>:
> >
> >
> > On 10/21/2009 11:10 AM, Lana Brindley wrote:
> >>
> >> ... (who lays telephone cable over grass, anyway? Grrr!)
> >
> > I'm going to go with "Someone in or around your household?" for $25
> >
>
> No, try "Telstra".
>
> Seriously.
>
> L
>
>
> --
> Cheers! Lana
>
> Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
>   - Mark Twain
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> http://lanabrindley.blogspot.com
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> Please avoid sending me Word, Powerpoint or Windows Media attachments.
>
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html for more information.
>
> ------------------------------------------------

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[Lana Brindley]

Hmmm, yes. I know it's strange, but I do mean the one and the same! :P

Apparently, when they needed to re-route the cable because of the
development going on next door, they draped it from my house, over the
front lawn, over the retaining wall at the front, looped it up loosely
a few times on the nature strip, and then let it dive back into an
unmarked hole in the ground.

Which became interesting only after the grass had grown, and required mowing ...

L

2009/10/21 Francis Whittle <fudje@...>:

> You don't mean "Telstra" as in "There's a rodent hole here, let's route
> a comms cable through it" Telstra do you?  Not them, never ;P
>
> "I don't think this line's long enough yet, the carrier still has a
> usuable SNR"
>
> On Wed, 2009-10-21 at 11:23 +1100, Lana Brindley wrote:
>> 2009/10/21 Steve Walsh <steve@...>:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/21/2009 11:10 AM, Lana Brindley wrote:
>> >>
>> >> ... (who lays telephone cable over grass, anyway? Grrr!)
>> >
>> > I'm going to go with "Someone in or around your household?" for $25
>> >
>>
>> No, try "Telstra".
>>
>> Seriously.
>>
>> L
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers! Lana
>>
>> Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
>>   - Mark Twain
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> http://lanabrindley.blogspot.com
>> -----------------------------------------------
>>
>> Please avoid sending me Word, Powerpoint or Windows Media attachments.
>>
>> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html for more information.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------
>
>
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>

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Cheers! Lana

Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.
  - Mark Twain

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[Felix Karpfen-4]

Peter Barker wrote:
>
>
> Cheaper $-wise, assuming you're not valuing your time at anything (which
> may be reasonable).
>
> iinet is $20 for the dialup you describe, $30 for ADSL 2+.
>

Hard data from a CLUG-lurker - who received *great* help from CLUG
members in his recent switch from "dial-up" to "broadband":

Dial-up
=======

Supplied by IINet (Special deal for ex-WebOne customers):

Monthly dialup fee   $9.90 for first 20 hours access;
                                $1.00/hour for additional access;

Telstra phone charges $0.21/per call

Given that I was highly organised, did most of my "Internet reading"
offline, rarely exceeded the 20 hours access and generally managed to
connect to IINet on the first dial-up call, my total monthly costs
rarely exceeded $18.00.

Broadband
=========

ADSL2+ supplied by TPG

Monthly fee $29.90

Additional phone charges $0

My download quota is 3 Gbytes peak time plus 7Gbytes offpeak.  After
exceeding my quota (which has yet to happen) the download speed is
throttled.

Comments:
========

Many of the URLs, that I visit, make lavish use of features that come
into their own when they are downloaded at broadband speeds.  Some -
features (such as UTube and RealPlayer downloads) were previously
inaccessible and have now become viable.


Felix Karpfen



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[steve jenkin-2]

Felix Karpfen wrote on 22/10/09 8:01 AM:

>
> Hard data from a CLUG-lurker - who received *great* help from CLUG
> members in his recent switch from "dial-up" to "broadband":
>
> Dial-up
> =======
>
> Supplied by IINet (Special deal for ex-WebOne customers):
>
> Monthly dialup fee          $9.90 for first 20 hours access;
>                 $1.00/hour for additional access;
>
> Telstra phone charges        $0.21/per call
>
> Given that I was highly organised, did most of my "Internet reading"
> offline, rarely exceeded the 20 hours access and generally managed to
> connect to IINet on the first dial-up call, my total monthly costs
> rarely exceeded $18.00.

<snip>

> Felix Karpfen

Felix,

Thanks for real data. Much appreciated.

Here's a little more work on those figures:

56k modem @ 80% effective == 44,000bps (I used to get that)
Async overhead (8 data+1 start, 1 stop bit) == 440 by/sec

MTU of 512 by == 8.6 packets/sec
TCP/IP headers == 40 bytes/pkt [if not using header compression]

~= 4kB/sec or 14Mb/hr (max)

That's 42 hours to download a 600Mb CD image, modulo Telstra dropping
the call, or if you've forgotten to turn off 'call waiting' :-(.
Of course it will restart perfectly every time.

A $1/hr excess translates at best to $71/Gb.

It used to be that Telstra would only guarantee 9600 baud for dial-up,
that might now be 28.8k... I've lost track.
Some people will do considerably worse - but then they won't get good
ADSL either.

Some ISP's offer cache/accelerator software that gives good results I'm
told.

Images and MP3's become challenging, video out of the question.
Software downloads have to be carefully calculated...

You always notice big web pages downloading and cancel 'flash' animations.

Under Felix's plan, an hour on-line a day (30hrs) plus 2 connections/day
 comes out over $30/month, considerably more if the modem drops
out/reconnects.

Someone raised the question of "what value do you place on your time"?
If others are inveigled to do your support, who's pricing their time at
"zero"?

Thanks for pulling me up on my broad generalisation :-)

cheers
s

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[Alex Satrapa-5]

On 22/10/2009, at 10:00 , steve jenkin wrote:

> That's 42 hours to download a 600Mb CD image

> Images and MP3's become challenging, video out of the question.
> Software downloads have to be carefully calculated...
>
> You always notice big web pages downloading and cancel 'flash'  
> animations.

Hrm...

1) Turn off images (except for sites that need them such as internet  
banking)
2) Turn off Flash and other plugins
3) Learn very quickly that most sites that use Flash aren't worth  
visiting anyway
4) Understand that dialup is good for email and the occasional  
internet banking session
5) Don't try to use dialup to download stuff, that's what CLUG  
meetings and FireWire drives are for!

If you're trying to save money, you have to make sacrifices.  If you  
give up TV, you'll find you have more time to be social.  Part of your  
social activities could include attending CLUG meetings where people  
can bring you the latest ISOs/mirrors on disk so you can copy them at  
over 50MB/s - much faster than any broadband or Ethernet network.

Actually, here's a challenge for all of you: turn off images and  
Flash, and see how many sites you use on a regular basis actually have  
worthwhile content. It's amazing how quickly you change your browsing  
habits.  Google is good, Daringfireball is good, most Microsoft sites  
break, as does Facebook.

Alex

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