Am I alone?

[jedd-2]

 Here's the thing - I'm now in the habit of doing a whole bunch
 of stuff I didn't have to do before, and putting up with a whole
 other bunch, and today I realised just how bad it is.  I'm a huge
 advocate of KDE, as I've said before, but right now I can't (and
 don't) suggest it for new-to-Debian users.  (FWIW I encourage
 them to go with a stable install, and stick with 3.5.9 while they
 can.)

 I'm starting to wonder if my experiences are really unique, or
 if others are getting the same level of pain.  Feel free to chip in,
 ideally if you don't have *anywhere* near this level of pain, as
 I'd dearly love to believe my woes are, somehow, resolvable.

 I've talked before about the 5 to 20 second delay in re-sizing konsole
 windows *only*, and only when they occupy > 60% of the screen.
 This still lingers, and after recent work with VirtualBox sessions, I
 can now add that the same problem does *not* apply to comparably
 sized konsoles running in a virtual full-sized KDE desktop.

 When I log in to KDE now, I have to change the order of sender/subject
 in kmail (an outstanding bug that's been with us since KDE 4.0, where
 it declines to remember your settings), and then I have to make the
 size-column smaller (because kmail always ignores the previous column
 sizes, and starts each time with a hugely wide size column, and as
 a result, a horizontal scrollbar - another bug of the same vintage).

 I then have to sort through *all* my konqueror windows, spread across
 6 desktops.  I find that I consistently get duplicates of these - be
 they file or web konqueror instances - and the duplicates pop up on
 whichever desktop is in focus at login.  Because I can't be sure if
 they are duplicates, or just misplaced windows, I have to send them
 back to the desktop I think they belong to - I have VM's on desktop 1,
 web dev on desktop 2, mail on 3, and so on.  Then I visit each virtual
 desktop and cull out the duplicates - not that easy when there are
 a dozen or more windows on each.  I used to be able to use my G7-G12
 keys on my Logitech G15 keyboard as shortcuts for 'send window to
 Desktop X', but since KDE 4.0 these keys have not been supported,
 with an error about 'qt4 doesn't recognise this key'.  So I have to
 right-click every window, and send-to-desktop.  Slow and painful.

 In any case, every time I log in, I'm now looking at about ten
 minutes or faffing around before I think (but still can't be sure)
 my desktops are how they were when I logged out the day before.

 While I'm working, I might go to one of my desktops to look at a
 page I know I have open, and find it's simply gone.  Alternatively
 I'll just want to open up a web page and so I'll F2 / gg: something.

 In either case, when I go to launch a new file or web browser window,
 I'll often get a half dozen konqueror windows popping up - all things
 I had open previously (on different desktops) and that had, sometime
 in the previous little while, spontaneously and _totally silently_
 just died.  I'll then do my little dance again to work out which
 desktop all these resurrected windows belong to, and whether any
 are duplicates, and _then_ get back to what I was trying to do in the
 first place  (look at an existing, or launch a new, web browser).

 Sometimes I'll have the new window open that I've launched, but
 the back-button will be available, and hopefully I notice that,
 because it reveals that the new-launch-window has overwritten
 a window that I had running before.  So I have to remember to look
 out for that, and if it's there, I hit 'back', move that konqueror
 window to whatever desktop it lives on, and then try *again* to
 launch my new web search.

 A month or so ago, after having konqueror dying on a web page I
 was developing (no JS, just something about the HTML that caused
 the process to freeze, requiring ctrl-alt-esc to kill it - another bug
 I've reported, with consistent death-inducing .war file, to k.b.o)
 I thought I'd get smart and changed the performance setting in
 konqueror Settings | Performance | Minimize memory usage to 'never',
 so that no konqueror instance could/would interfere with any other.

 But this made no difference - one konqueror window dying will still,
 somehow, take up to a half dozen other windows with it.

 I have pondered using iceweasel exclusively - as I use it already
 for gmail and a *very* small handful of sites that don't work
 properly on konqueror.  However, iceweasel doesn't start automatically
 on KDE login.  When I do launch it, it forgets the size, position,
 and desktop of the two instances.  I've also found that it will
 sometimes, on launch, simply forget that it had two instances,
 with a half dozen tabs on each - and give me a single, empty,
 browser window.  Not often, of course, but often enough to make
 me not want to risk the bulk of my session information (web pages)
 that I care about just being entirely lost.  I suspect a fair few
 people will understand the risk and the pain - if you use web pages
 as a virtual kind of 'to do' list - but if you don't, then trust me,
 it's really annoying.  Conversely, it's something that I've been
 comfortable doing since hopping onto KDE a decade ago.

 I'm sure someone will suggest starting with a new ~/.kde - and I
 think I'm going to go down this path, just on the off-chance.  The
 problem there is that I've only had this .kde set - a brand spanking
 new instance since I had troubles with the 3.x to 4.x upgrade
 process, for a couple of months.  If I have to re-start from
 scratch on my entire .kde-contained settings every few months
 then that's even worse - it's a huge amount of effort to go through
 and set everything up from scratch, and even then I tend to
 miss a few things that bite me a week or two later.

 So, please, if you can tell me that I *am* alone, I'll be very happy.

 Jedd.


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[Modestas Vainius]

Hello,

On antradienis 29 Rugsėjis 2009 18:08:06 jedd wrote:
>  I've talked before about the 5 to 20 second delay in re-sizing konsole
>  windows *only*, and only when they occupy > 60% of the screen.
>  This still lingers, and after recent work with VirtualBox sessions, I
>  can now add that the same problem does *not* apply to comparably
>  sized konsoles running in a virtual full-sized KDE desktop.

Video driver problem, most likely of proprietary nvidia drivers.

>  When I log in to KDE now, I have to change the order of sender/subject
>  in kmail (an outstanding bug that's been with us since KDE 4.0, where
>  it declines to remember your settings),

You are alone. Wipe kmailrc?

>  and then I have to make the
>  size-column smaller (because kmail always ignores the previous column
>  sizes, and starts each time with a hugely wide size column, and as
>  a result, a horizontal scrollbar - another bug of the same vintage).

Not sure about this. I'm using a new fancy mail list view.

> I then have to sort through all my konqueror windows, spread across
> 6 desktops.  I find that I consistently get duplicates of these - be
> they file or web konqueror instances - and the duplicates pop up on
> whichever desktop is in focus at login.  Because I can't be sure if
> they are duplicates, or just misplaced windows, I have to send them
> back to the desktop I think they belong to - I have VM's on desktop 1,
> web dev on desktop 2, mail on 3, and so on.  Then I visit each virtual
> desktop and cull out the duplicates - not that easy when there are
> a dozen or more windows on each.  I used to be able to use my G7-G12
> keys on my Logitech G15 keyboard as shortcuts for 'send window to
> Desktop X', but since KDE 4.0 these keys have not been supported,
> with an error about 'qt4 doesn't recognise this key'.  So I have to
> right-click every window, and send-to-desktop.  Slow and painful.

File a wishlist bug to bugs.kde.org or to Qt Software ?

[snip]

All other problems you describe are with konqueror. I don't see most of them
but konqueror is not such an important app for me and I don't use many virtual
desktops. I can only recommend to purge konqueror-nsplugins and wipe out
konqueror configs (and maybe kwinrc too) and start all over.

>  I'm sure someone will suggest starting with a new ~/.kde - and I
>  think I'm going to go down this path, just on the off-chance.  The
>  problem there is that I've only had this .kde set - a brand spanking
>  new instance since I had troubles with the 3.x to 4.x upgrade
>  process, for a couple of months.  If I have to re-start from
>  scratch on my entire .kde-contained settings every few months
>  then that's even worse - it's a huge amount of effort to go through
>  and set everything up from scratch, and even then I tend to
>  miss a few things that bite me a week or two later.

Well, just *test* with a new ~/.kde It does not mean you have to switch to it.
Try to reproduce problems and if they don't happen, it means you need to wipe
out a couple of configs from old .kde. That's it.

>  So, please, if you can tell me that I *am* alone, I'll be very happy.

I believe you are mostly alone. Konqueror disappearing to background happened
only once for me in KDE 4.

--
Modestas Vainius <modestas@...>

[Rod Lovett]

  Hi Jed,
           you are not alone, Linus himself said "linux is bloated"
attracting some controversy, and he was an advocate for KDE3.5x.
Myself I feel KDE4.x is getting bloated and straying far far away from
the KISS  principle.
Sidux tries to make it better keeping some KDE 3.x settings and it is
prettier and more usable like this, but less than perfect.

I am even beginning to enjoy Gnome after KDE 4.x,
Debian Lenny still uses KDE 3.5.10, and that just works.
So I less than happy with KDE 4.x also, it is bloated, ?permanently lost
the KISS principle and floundering a bit at present.

Cheers
Rod


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When I began to read your mail and your recommendation to stick with 3.5.9 I first thought you were going to complain about plasma configurations disappearing, K3b, Kdebluetooth, Quanta, Nepomuk, etc, in KDE 4, well, more exactly about their inexistence or miserable status 2 years after KDE 4 began to make our "dream come true"; I was thinking "wow, a guy who thinks we have enough eyecandy and it's time to go efficient and useful, and has the b*lls to say it publicly without fear to be calle a troll, or to have answers like 'stick with Windows or buy a Mac', 'KDE is made by volunteers, do it yourself or shut the f*ck up', and such", hehe. But now I think you are not exactly a critic but a very "bad-lucked" guy, :-/.

Most of those issues you mention are quite rare, I'm not the most experienced user, and by no means I am a programmer or software "technician", but I hadn't read things like those in forums blogs or whatever, honestly.

But there's one of your issues I share, at least partially; hte Konqueror freeze. AFAIK it is a problem with Flash, but closing the Konqueror window solved the problem, temporally. Just Ctrl+Q worked for me. Take a look to this post, perhaps it may help you:
http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=35698&start=0&hilit=flash+mouse+freeze&sid=5a72eb6be94aefacfa4ce4f8e95f3846

Iceweasel has never presented such annoying behavior, althoug it decides" to reside in memory and eat my CPU after closing it, and I have to kill the process (I think I'll try Firefox, which besides is better adapted to my regional circumstances), but, again, I just can think you are alone with you IW issues. When I log in, my previous IW session restores with all its tabs, size and position. You can always tell Kwin to remember any program's windows position and size, just right pulse on the title bar > Configure Window behavior > Window specific, or something like that, the last one (sorry, my KDE is in Spanish) and there create a new rule for Iceweasel. This should work.

I don't usually work with more than 3 desktops, and my laptop doesn't have all those buttons, so I can't say about this.

Kmail works flawlessly for me, and for some friends who also use KDE 4; our colums stay as we configure them, so, once again, I think you are alone.

 I'd follow Modestas advice, I'd even would try a complete fresh installation in a clean partition if "renewing" your .kde directory doesn't work. If not, you can always try the "rusty" efficience of Gnome, hehe, ;).

Good luck.


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On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Manolete, ese artista...
<variosinftk@...> wrote:
> When I began to read your mail and your recommendation to stick with 3.5.9 I first thought you were going to complain about plasma configurations disappearing, K3b, Kdebluetooth, Quanta, Nepomuk, etc, in KDE 4, well, more exactly about their inexistence or miserable status 2 years after KDE 4 began to make our "dream come true"; I was thinking "wow, a guy who thinks we have enough eyecandy and it's time to go efficient and useful, and has the b*lls to say it publicly without fear to be calle a troll, or to have answers like 'stick with Windows or buy a Mac', 'KDE is made by volunteers, do it yourself or shut the f*ck up', and such", hehe. But now I think you are not exactly a critic but a very "bad-lucked" guy, :-/.
>

Good one.
I don't share any of the OP's issues either. (Well, I neither use
konqueror nor kmail. And I certainly don't to keep half a dozen tabs
open while logging off. My single KDE sessions run for ~ a week. and I
prefer to start with a fresh clean desktop at KDE log on)

But I do share the general feeling of "things should / could have been
much better in the KDE land." And I most certainly miss the "crispy,
snappy" feeling of KDE 3.5. In good old days, Konqueror used to fire
up at the blink of an eye. Now, it takes almost 3-4 secs to display
that flashy "blue screen of konqueror introduction." I can see the svg
background drawing slowly..  Yeah its easy to blame it on nvidia / amd
/ intel (for laptops) (so whom are we left with?) ;)

As someone mentioned, of late I think, sidux has done a decent job in
taming the unruly Sid with KDE. I think it is safe to say that my
patience with KDE can be attributed to a large extent to sidux.

--
Regards
PK
--------------------------------------
http://counter.li.org  #402424


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[Valerio Passini-2]

Alle Wednesday 30 September 2009, Rod Lovett ha scritto:
>   Hi Jed,
>
> I am even beginning to enjoy Gnome after KDE 4.x,
> Debian Lenny still uses KDE 3.5.10, and that just works.
> So I less than happy with KDE 4.x also, it is bloated, ?permanently
>  lost the KISS principle and floundering a bit at present.
Features are almost on the opposite side of simplicity. For example KDE
3.5 was really features rich, much more than KDE4. In KDE4 developers
are trying to rationalize the use of databases, avoiding redundancy of
programs, etc... I think they are trying to simplifies almost
everything, given that they must retain some backward compatibility to
help migration, they are using a completely new toolkit (QT4.5), they
want to add powerful features. BTW, someone is complaining because KDE4
is not simple, someone else is complaining because it misses some
features. Who is right?


Alle Wednesday 30 September 2009, Manolete, ese artista... ha scritto:

>  I first thought you were going to complain about plasma
>  configurations disappearing, K3b, Kdebluetooth, Quanta, Nepomuk,
>  etc, in KDE 4, well, more exactly about their inexistence or
>  miserable status 2 years after KDE 4 began to make our "dream come
>  true"; I was thinking "wow, a guy who thinks we have enough eyecandy
>  and it's time to go efficient and useful, and has the b*lls to say
>  it publicly without fear to be calle a troll, or to have answers
>  like 'stick with Windows or buy a Mac', 'KDE is made by volunteers,
>  do it yourself or shut the f*ck up', and such", hehe. But now I
>  think you are not exactly a critic but a very "bad-lucked" guy, :-/.

No, really I don't think that complaining for 3 paragraphs is such an
interesting and revolutionary act to demonstrate that KDE4 is not
perfect. Screaming: "you are not satisfying my needs", in the free
software world is simply useless. Once I had to help debugging ide-cd
driver in the kernel, I was the bug reporter and probably one of the few
people around with the "right" combination of hardware able to replicate
the bug. A developer, simply can't solve your bugs if they are too much
exotic and require "special" hardware. In first place they must know if
it's a real bug or just your misconfiguration. Thus users (experienced
or not) are needed to help and collaborate in developing and fixing
things. Tracking down what's going on in Jedd's PC is a duty of Jedd's
himself with the help of the people in this list, when it's possible,
because we are not omniscient beings. I don't know if it's nvidia to
blame for Jedd's issues: I have five PCs with nvdia hardware, 3 of them
with KDE4. I simply choose which one of them was able to support the
latest nvidia drivers that are required to run all the special FX of
KDE4. In the others I have kept KDE3 or disabled the eyecandies. They
are all working quite well indeed. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I have chosen
properly what software install on the right HW and what I can pretend
from it.
About the complains on k3b, kdebluetooth, nepomuk, some are right some
are completely wrong. k3b is still there, it's the previous version but
it's fully functional, doesn't integrate well with the desktop (just
from a look and feel POV), but weren't you saying that eyecandy are
unimportant? Anyway, the new version is in experimental, so i think it's
not too far from coming in unstable.
On Kdebluetooth, you are completely right. The old one can't work and
the new is completely immature.
Nepumuk, it works on other distributions that don't refuse to package
sesame. This can be considered a Debian issue, not a KDE4 one, even if I
completely agree with the Debian decision.
Given all the above, IMHO most of the criticism shown in this thread
it's unfair.
Bye

Valerio


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[Manolete, ese artista...-2]

El Miércoles 30 Septiembre 2009 12:13:38 Valerio Passini escribió:
> About the complains on k3b, kdebluetooth, nepomuk, some are right some
> are completely wrong. k3b is still there, it's the previous version but
> it's fully functional, doesn't integrate well with the desktop (just
> from a look and feel POV), but weren't you saying that eyecandy are
> unimportant?

Well, Integration and eyecandy aren't exactly the same thing; but you may be right here, ok. I mentioned K3b just as an example of things that could have been done before if all those pretty themes, plasmoids, effects (some of them are more than eyecandy, and add really useful features regarding usability, to be honest) had been considered not prioritary (if such a word exists in english).

About Nepomuk, yes, there are other distros with Sesame 2, but I've tried a way to install it on Debian (I'm going to explain it in a sepparate mail) and well, it's really time-saving to be able to find your files regardless which folder you saved them to, nor launching a search box wich may take mor than a minute to search; but for example Nepomuk doesnt notice my tags, so tagging my files is useless. It is a snap finding files based on filenames, for example, and that's good, but it still seems to have some road to walk. Perhaps, is an issue on my computer, I don't know, but comentaries about its behavior on KDE's forum don't seem to be too laudatory either. So I wouldn't blame Debian; as you say, they probably made the right decission and Virtuoso is the appropriate backend.
My criticism pointed to the fact that since Nepomuk is a real big progress, from my POV (I even undestand S. Trüg "abandoned" the aforementioned K3b for working on such a promising project), I think eyecandy could have waited a bit; and the same goes for Akonadi, which AFAIK (perhaps my info is a bit outdated) is still "half-baked", and for apps that work but still have deficiencies (comes to my mind the lack of a browsing historial or horizontal split in Dolphin or a "New mail arrived" warning in Kopete, for example).

Of course this is free software, and every programmer decide what they want to work in, but some decissions about where concentrate efforts first may affect the quality of a project a lot, and it's comprensible that people who need a solid and efficient desktop for their everyday work still prefer KDE 3.5 or even Gnome.


Regards


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[Valerio Passini-2]

Alle Wednesday 30 September 2009, Manolete, ese artista... ha scritto:
> Well, Integration and eyecandy aren't exactly the same thing; but you
>  may be right here, ok. I mentioned K3b just as an example of things
>  that could have been done before if all those pretty themes,
>  plasmoids, effects (some of them are more than eyecandy, and add
>  really useful features regarding usability, to be honest) had been
>  considered not prioritary (if such a word exists in english).
>
As you reminded, developers are working on what they consider
interesting: this is free software in any sense. However I don't think
the same developer that is taking care of "plasma", or other desktop
related stuff, can easily switch to k3b. k3b is one of the most popular
KDE application, despite of it there have been only a couple of
developers able to bring on Trueg's work. Even if it's always possible
to better organize manpower, there is a limit: you must have competent
people in any given field. Bye

Valerio


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[jedd-2]

 Modestas, Manolete, PK, Rod, Valerio - thanks for your ideas.

 I deleted my .kde directory entirely, rather than trying just
 to remove the konq conf and app stuff under there - I reasoned
 there was much to reconfigure, and it'd be a good opportunity
 to make a note of all the changes I make (I suspect I'll have to
 refer to that note semi-regularly now :(

 After 8 days of using this new raw ~/.kde, and doing no updates
 to my system (and with 4.3.2 beckoning) I can observe / conclude
 the following:

 konsole resizing taking up to 20+ seconds - was fixed by this
 purge / rebuild.  A mystery, to be sure.  Does tend to suggest,
 given no nVidia driver changes in that time, that it was something
 weird about KDE's or qt's graphics primitives.

 kmail bug of not remembering sender to be left of subject still
 present.  There's a bug report out for this, as there's some
 theme stuff that conflicts with kmail settings.

 kmail bug of horizontal scroll bar appearing in the message-list
 area - I *think* this relates to a window width calculation bug,
 stemming from the fact that I keep my toolbar on the left (rather
 than up the top).  If anyone wants to experiment with their toolbar
 on the left for a little while and report back that'd be appreciated.

 Logitech G15 keys not being accepted by qt - there's a bug out
 for this, I think I found it in Ubuntu, with an upstream bug reference
 back to nokia's site, and a suggestion the fix was in their CVS, so
 fingers crossed this comes through in the next few months.

 Konqueror weirdness - I am *still* getting duplicate windows on
 login, after clean logouts.  The duplicate windows sometimes miss
 toolbars (I choose to have the HTML toolbar always visible, for the
 -/+ font buttons).  I still occasionally start a new konq and get an
 old konqueror window (file or html) pop up - one that I didn't even
 realise had died.  Iceweasel continues to frustrate, and isn't a
 useful replacement for konqueror either.  Not sure what to do on
 this front.


 Manolete - my konq crash was much more severe than the type
 you describe.  If you're interested, grab the attachment on the
 report at https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205348 - please
 comment at b.k.o if you can reproduce the crash - it happens
 as soon as I load the .war and hit the 'increase font size' button.

 Also, I have good success with quanta - has to be force installed,
 at the moment, until I get around to rebuilding the .deb - but it
 works a treat on KDE4.  It'll be fantastic once kdevelop4 comes up
 to speed, as it looks like this is intended to replace quanta in the
 KDE4 world - eventually.  I've played with a few alternatives, and
 the best I've found is Aptana - but it just doesn't compare, despite
 being 200+MB (to Quanta's 6MB).  {sigh}


 cheers,
 Jedd.


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El Viernes 09 Octubre 2009 16:53:57 jedd escribió:
>  Not sure what to do on this front.

To resign yourself and use Firefox, I'm afraid...

Sadly -and I'd like this was just my experience, but many other people experience similar issues-, Konqueror just sucks. It crashes, doesn't load correctly lots of pages -especially important ones, like banks and such-, doesn't handle Flash nor Java well, its bookmarks manager  -at least if you have several hundred bookmarks- crashes even more, its address bar behavior is antediluvian compared to FF's one, it "forgets" addresses you may have visited 5 days ago, etc, etc.
So even if FF is heavier and GTK is ugly, backwards and its bad integration into KDE is a crime against every decent human being's aesthetical sense, it's solid and reliable like granite, and you can always "QT-ize" it a bit.
Also, you can try Arora. I have no idea about it beyond it uses Webkit and QT, but never tried nor read too much about it.


>  Manolete - my konq crash was much more severe than the type
>  you describe.  If you're interested, grab the attachment on the
>  report at https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205348 - please
>  comment at b.k.o if you can reproduce the crash - it happens
>  as soon as I load the .war and hit the 'increase font size' button.

I can reproduce it, although in my box Konqueror doesn't freeze until I have changed font size 4 or 5 times. I'll comment on b.k.o.


>  Also, I have good success with quanta - has to be force installed,
>  at the moment, until I get around to rebuilding the .deb - but it
>  works a treat on KDE4.  It'll be fantastic once kdevelop4 comes up
>  to speed, as it looks like this is intended to replace quanta in the
>  KDE4 world - eventually.  I've played with a few alternatives, and
>  the best I've found is Aptana - but it just doesn't compare, despite
>  being 200+MB (to Quanta's 6MB).  {sigh}
>

I don't know too much about web design and programming software, but there's Amaya, the editor made by the W3C, which I believe is QT. Don't know if it's comprable to Quanta, nor if it's in the repos, but if you want to try it's here: http://www.w3.org/Amaya/


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[jedd-2]

On Saturday 10 October 2009 01:18:28 Manolete, ese artista... wrote:
> To resign yourself and use Firefox, I'm afraid...

 The thing is, I really do prefer konqueror - it seems faster, and
 9 times out of 10 it's the better browser.  I really like having
 my buttons vertically aligned on the left of my window - that's
 especially useful on my netbook with its small screen.

 I've used Iceweasel/FF for years for a handful of sites - the
 usual banking and gmail stuff I guess.  I find its confusion about
 where to re-show its previous sessions, or remember the size
 of those windows, and the occasional total loss of same - is
 even worse than konqueror's current foibles.

 Yes - the konqueror bookmark manager seems to crash pretty
 much any time you try to move bookmarks around (which
 is just plain bewildering since it's done this consistently since 4.0)
 and there's a stack of other annoyances with it - but I think
 my biggest gripe is that I have to use two browsers, because
 neither is really satisfying in itself.

 I think I mentioned before that I started playing with Chrome,
 but that's decidedly dodgy (just in case you were tempted).

> I can reproduce it, although in my box Konqueror doesn't freeze until I
>  have changed font size 4 or 5 times. I'll comment on b.k.o.

 Saw that - thanks!  Not sure how much of that stuff is being
 attended to, especially with the interactions back from safari
 (is there still stuff coming in from that mob, I wonder?)

 Jedd.


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[Nick Boyce-3]

Manolete, ese artista... wrote:

> ... Konqueror just sucks. It crashes, doesn't load correctly lots of
> pages -especially important ones, like banks and such

Just FWIW (and somewhat OT), Konqueror has handled the bank site
http://www.smile.co.uk/ very well since 3.3 (Sarge), though for some
reason with Konqueror 3.5.9 (Lenny) I have to disable TLS in order to
actually login (otherwise I get "unable to connect" when I click
"login") - this is weird because Firefox handles it fine without
disabling TLS, which I guess means it's Konqi's fault, not the bank's.

[I think this particular bank site is laudably minimalistic ...]

Mind you, Konqueror 3.3 crashes on Slashdot unless I disable Javascript :)

Cheers
Nick Boyce
--
/* affect != effect */ void affect(int *thing,int effect) { *thing +=
effect; }


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