An update on EdenX

[Guillaume Laurent]

Hi,

Just in passing, I've posted a screencast of EdenX in its current  
state, now that I have playback and MIDI recording done :

http://telegraph-road.org/blog/2009/10/18/edenx-a-quick-demo/

The post is mostly pro-OSX/Cocoa propaganda, though :-)

--
Guillaume
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[cannam]

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Guillaume Laurent
<glaurent@...> wrote:
>
> Just in passing, I've posted a screencast of EdenX in its current
> state, now that I have playback and MIDI recording done :
>
> http://telegraph-road.org/blog/2009/10/18/edenx-a-quick-demo/
>
> The post is mostly pro-OSX/Cocoa propaganda, though :-)

Interesting material, but really, what's with the language and the
polemical tone?  These are all just computers.  It's not the fault of
an operating system that you chose to develop for it.

What seems sad is that you obviously want to express joy about your
current platform, but your tone is resentful rather than joyful.

I couldn't actually get the video to play, but that's probably because
I'm using a weird operating system (OpenSolaris, which I'm using at
the moment because it pleases me in other ways).  I'll try it on Linux
tomorrow.


Chris

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[cannam]

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Chris Cannam
<cannam@...> wrote:
> What seems sad is that you obviously want to express joy about your
> current platform, but your tone is resentful rather than joyful.

... and I'm sure that wasn't (entirely) your intention, so let me just
say what it is that makes me read it that way: it's because you don't
stop to express what the previous, inferior methods were like.  You
say "this is really simple" (with example) and "it was never like this
on Linux" but there's no information about what things were actually
like on Linux, with the toolkits you used.  What actually is the
difference, in code?  How much of that is down to the platform and how
much is down to familiarity and best practice?  The feeling I get is
that you're happy now and your former sorrows are simply a result of
Linux, which is all very well as a psychiatric assessment but not very
happy as a blog post.

I don't want to be too rude, and I realise you probably are feeling
righteous and triumphal for perfectly sound reasons.  It's a bit sorry
though.  I recently rediscovered that the Linux Hater's Blog is back
in action (since some time ago I gather) and I have a similar problem
with that -- not that it's about Linux, but that it's so sour about
it.  I don't like OS/X, but I don't feel I should set up a blog about
it, or abuse my wife because it's her preferred operating system.
Maybe I'm overestimating myself, but I like to think I'd be annoyed by
a Windows Haters Blog just as much.


Chris

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[Guillaume Laurent]

On Oct 18, 2009, at 22:58 , Chris Cannam wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 9:46 PM, Chris Cannam
> <cannam@...> wrote:
>> What seems sad is that you obviously want to express joy about your
>> current platform, but your tone is resentful rather than joyful.
>
> ... and I'm sure that wasn't (entirely) your intention,

Indeed it wasn't, and I am joyful because there's this nice feeling  
that I can actually be productive on this even when I spend only a  
couple of hours on it. At this stage that's usually enough time to get  
some a feature done, or to fix a bug.

> so let me just
> say what it is that makes me read it that way: it's because you don't
> stop to express what the previous, inferior methods were like.  You
> say "this is really simple" (with example) and "it was never like this
> on Linux" but there's no information about what things were actually
> like on Linux, with the toolkits you used.  What actually is the
> difference, in code?

Er... Well, first I assume that either the reader is an OSX dev and he  
doesn't care, or he's a Linux dev and he knows already. Or he's a  
Windows dev, and then I don't care :-). Also, the difference is that  
on Linux you need to write code for all the features I've listed,  
while on OSX, well, you don't :-). That's as basic as it gets.

>  How much of that is down to the platform and how
> much is down to familiarity and best practice?

It's all down to the platform. It's like comparing Java to C++, with  
Java you have GC so no need to take care of memory management - no  
amount of best practice or familiarity will give you that in C++. You  
just have a more powerful tool.

>  The feeling I get is
> that you're happy now and your former sorrows are simply a result of
> Linux, which is all very well as a psychiatric assessment but not very
> happy as a blog post.

Yeah, you're right, reading it again I am also venting some past  
frustration. I guess that's a delayed reaction to the mindset of the  
Linux community (which Rosegarden has never displayed, we've always  
been pretty lucid about the state of things, I think).

>
> I don't want to be too rude, and I realise you probably are feeling
> righteous and triumphal for perfectly sound reasons.  It's a bit sorry
> though.  I recently rediscovered that the Linux Hater's Blog is back
> in action (since some time ago I gather) and I have a similar problem
> with that -- not that it's about Linux, but that it's so sour about
> it.  I don't like OS/X, but I don't feel I should set up a blog about
> it, or abuse my wife because it's her preferred operating system.
> Maybe I'm overestimating myself, but I like to think I'd be annoyed by
> a Windows Haters Blog just as much.

Everybody hates Windows anyway :-). No, the problem with Linux and the  
reason there's a Linux Haters Blog is that most of the crowd is  
sticking its head in the sand, explaining away all the problems with  
answers like "not open enough", or "wrong distribution", or "more  
choice is more freedom". So I understand how one would want to be the  
voice of dissent in there - although the number of such voices has  
been increasing.

--
Guillaume
http://telegraph-road.org






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[cannam]

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Guillaume Laurent
<glaurent@...> wrote:
> Everybody hates Windows anyway :-).

I don't.  I used to, but nowadays I find myself sticking up for it
when in "mixed-platform company".  I seem to be just about the only
person in the world who actually likes Vista.  Though it maybe helps
that I don't have to use it all that much.

> most of the crowd is
> sticking its head in the sand, explaining away all the problems with
> answers like "not open enough", or "wrong distribution", or "more
> choice is more freedom". So I understand how one would want to be the
> voice of dissent in there - although the number of such voices has
> been increasing.

Oh come on, practically the whole world has been the "voice of
dissent" about Linux for as long as it's been around.  It's always
been an object of ridicule -- characterised as a toy operating system
developed by sad geeks with no life and no ability to design usable
software working late at night and probably drunk or high, writing
code that only they will ever use and that will break as soon as
anyone else goes near it.  That's why Linux users are so defensive in
the first place.  It's a spiral of resentment and defensiveness, I
tell you.

The real difference between ten years ago and now is that now, when
someone writes a Linux Hater's Blog, people actually read it.


Chris

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[Guillaume Laurent]

On Mon 19/10/09 09:43, "Chris Cannam" cannam@... wrote:

>
> Oh come on, practically the whole world has been the "voice of
> dissent" about Linux for as long as it's been around.  It's always
> been an object of ridicule -- characterised as a toy operating system
> developed by sad geeks with no life and no ability to design usable
> software working late at night and probably drunk or high, writing
> code that only they will ever use and that will break as soon as
> anyone else goes near it.  That's why Linux users are so defensive in
> the first place.  It's a spiral of resentment and defensiveness, I
> tell you.
>
> The real difference between ten years ago and now is that now, when
> someone writes a Linux Hater's Blog, people actually read it.

 
I disagree, the difference is that 10 years ago it wasn't dissent, it was plain contempt, and it came from people who weren't Linux users. Since then, Linux has gone mainstream, and the dissent comes from desillusioned users. Anyway, this is largely OT for the list :-).

--
Guillaume
http://telegraph-road.org



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[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Chris Cannam wrote:

> though.  I recently rediscovered that the Linux Hater's Blog is back
> in action (since some time ago I gather) and I have a similar problem
> with that -- not that it's about Linux, but that it's so sour about
> it.

Oh come on, Linux Haters is a LOVVERLY piece of... um... :) I really enjoy it :)

P.S. The video didn't work for me in Firefox 3.5.smth on Linux.

Alexandre

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[cannam]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
<alexandre.prokoudine@...> wrote:
> Oh come on, Linux Haters is a LOVVERLY piece of... um... :) I really enjoy it :)

I just can't abide anything with words ending in -tard in it.  Nor
with spurious dollar signs in the middle (usually found on the other
side of the debate).  Too playground for me, I'm afraid.

> P.S. The video didn't work for me in Firefox 3.5.smth on Linux.

Worked for me when I got to the Linux box.


Chris

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[cannam]

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:09 AM,  <glaurent@...> wrote:
> On Mon 19/10/09 09:43, "Chris Cannam" cannam@... wrote:
>>
>> The real difference between ten years ago and now is that now, when
>> someone writes a Linux Hater's Blog, people actually read it.
>
> I disagree, the difference is that 10 years ago it wasn't dissent, it was plain contempt, and it came from people who weren't Linux users. Since then, Linux has gone mainstream, and the dissent comes from desillusioned users.

Yes, you could be right about that.  In which case maybe it's a
healthy thing.  It would be a bit strange if, after all this time of
growing up as a system with fairly specialised appeal, it had suddenly
become something that absolutely everyone could use and like.


Chris

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[Heikki Johannes Junes]

2009/10/19 Chris Cannam <cannam@...>

On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:09 AM,  <glaurent@...> wrote:
> On Mon 19/10/09 09:43, "Chris Cannam" cannam@... wrote:
>>

>> The real difference between ten years ago and now is that now, when
>> someone writes a Linux Hater's Blog, people actually read it.
>
> I disagree, the difference is that 10 years ago it wasn't dissent, it was plain contempt, and it came from people who weren't Linux users. Since then, Linux has gone mainstream, and the dissent comes from desillusioned users.

Yes, you could be right about that.  In which case maybe it's a
healthy thing.  It would be a bit strange if, after all this time of
growing up as a system with fairly specialised appeal, it had suddenly
become something that absolutely everyone could use and like.

IMHO, all Linux Hater's things etc. are result of undermining user experience and underlining technical excellence
(or even worse, underlining the excellence of the technician). However, technical excellence has no value if the
product does not take the user and the user experience into account.

So, 'Linux lovers' have mostly technicians, 'Mac lovers' have the people who mostly concentrate on the user experience and
'Windows lovers' have finally mostly the users. IMHO, the RG project should be made available to all these three platforms
in a way that, finally, would make people from each of three groups happy.

(going again, probably, back to the read-only mode).

--

Heikki

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[cannam]

Just in case anyone's interested, here's what Thorn currently looks
like on OS/X:

  http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/m/thorn-osx-blah.png

I haven't done anything to port it -- I just built it -- and I have no
particular plans to, at the moment. It's not all that easy to build
because of the various library dependencies, but since I use most of
the same ones for Sonic Visualiser, I had the environment ready
anyway.

No sound drivers at all, and the notation editor bails out on startup
because of a problem loading the default notation font, which I can't
be bothered to investigate.


Chris

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[Heikki Johannes Junes]

2009/10/20 Chris Cannam <cannam@...>

Just in case anyone's interested, here's what Thorn currently looks
like on OS/X:

 http://www.all-day-breakfast.com/m/thorn-osx-blah.png

I haven't done anything to port it -- I just built it -- and I have no
particular plans to, at the moment. It's not all that easy to build
because of the various library dependencies, but since I use most of
the same ones for Sonic Visualiser, I had the environment ready
anyway.

That's great!
 

No sound drivers at all, and the notation editor bails out on startup
because of a problem loading the default notation font, which I can't
be bothered to investigate.

The cross-platform libraries should be used in RG at some point after
Qt4 switch has been finished. Rtmidi could probably (?) be used as the
cross-platform sound library:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtmidi/

Both midi and audio should be present, which is the reason why the
choise is not fully evident.
 

--

Heikki

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[cannam]

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Heikki Johannes Junes
<hjunes@...> wrote:
> That's great!

I'm fairly ambivalent, and I don't intend to get sucked in to
improving it or writing the sound layer, but one thing it certainly
shows is that Michael has done a good job with the stylesheet.  There
are far fewer discrepancies than I'd expected.  Of course it looks
nothing like a normal OS/X application... which is good...

(For sound drivers, JACK audio and JACK MIDI would be one possible
place to start.  We want JACK MIDI anyway.)

I could easily enough run up a Windows build as well, but I have
better things to do at the moment.


Chris

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[Julie S]

Hello List,

Concerning:
RG in OSX...and the thought of building in in Windows is.

QT rocks!

Great job everyone.  Michael's style sheet is very excellent in deed.

Always design to the interface...but choose a good interface.  All I can say is QT is just top notch.

...no disrespect to the hard working developers here.  Everyone should be proud of those screen shots.

Sincerely,
Julie S.



     

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[D. Michael McIntyre]

On Tuesday 20 October 2009, Chris Cannam wrote:

> I'm fairly ambivalent, and I don't intend to get sucked in to
> improving it or writing the sound layer,

I'm less ambivalent, but I don't have access to OS-X or Windows without
spending money I don't have.

> but one thing it certainly shows is that Michael has done a good job with
> the stylesheet.  There are far fewer discrepancies than I'd expected.

What discrepancies do you see, I wonder?  All the things I worry about look
fine to me, and this is a pleasing result.  I'd expect this much variation
going from KDE to GNOME, let alone OS-X, and it's really encouraging.

> (For sound drivers, JACK audio and JACK MIDI would be one possible
> place to start.  We want JACK MIDI anyway.)

Would that work on Windows at all?  I'm not clear on the status of JACK on
Windows and/or JACK MIDI.

Anyway, as far as the whole cross-platform thing goes, I'd rather like to see
Rosegarden on Windows.  I'm proud of my work, and would like to be able to
share it without having to get people to switch to an entirely new operating
system.

That's really the bottom line, but unfortunately I have no means to do
anything about this.

I suggest that if users really want to see Windows and/or OS-X ports, donating
cash is an option.  What does a copy of Windows cost these days?

For that matter, I don't want to spend the money on a copy of OS-X to make a
Hackintosh, because it carries the risk of turning into a brick, but if all I
had to risk was a junk hard drive, I'd think about it.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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[Heikki Johannes Junes]

2009/10/20 Chris Cannam <cannam@...>

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Heikki Johannes Junes
<hjunes@...> wrote:
> That's great!

I'm fairly ambivalent, and I don't intend to get sucked in to
improving it or writing the sound layer, but one thing it certainly
shows is that Michael has done a good job with the stylesheet.  There
are far fewer discrepancies than I'd expected.  Of course it looks
nothing like a normal OS/X application... which is good...

(For sound drivers, JACK audio and JACK MIDI would be one possible
place to start.  We want JACK MIDI anyway.)

Oh, yes, I should have checked the JACK page (http://jackaudio.org/).
JACK should be fine for GNU/Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD, OS X and Windows.
 

I could easily enough run up a Windows build as well, but I have
better things to do at the moment.

No hurry, stabilizing QT4 has the top priority currently. We should just not loose
the right track in taking care of the libraries dependencies we have. The key is
to choose the libraries which aim at crossplatform usage, JACK seems
to fill this requirement.

QT4 invited more people in the wagon. Porting to Windows and Mac could
also seduce more developers in the development. If we just prepare for the
change, a new eager person might appear and do the actual porting job, I hope.
Then the only thing we have to do is to say 'Welcome!'.

--

Heikki

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[cannam]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 2:30 AM, D. Michael McIntyre
<michael.mcintyre@...> wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 October 2009, Chris Cannam wrote:
>> There are far fewer discrepancies than I'd expected.
>
> What discrepancies do you see, I wonder?  All the things I worry about look
> fine to me, and this is a pleasing result.

Actually I didn't see any, I was just hedging in the expectation that
you probably would.

This Qt build is using Carbon (supposedly deprecated 32-bit only API)
rather than Cocoa; I would expect more difficulties with a Cocoa
build, although I'd have expected more with Carbon too and we don't
seem to have got them there.

Windows is a much easier target for Qt than OS/X and is also usually
the fastest of the three main Qt targets, so I would expect it to work
fine there.

>> (For sound drivers, JACK audio and JACK MIDI would be one possible
>> place to start.  We want JACK MIDI anyway.)
>
> Would that work on Windows at all?  I'm not clear on the status of JACK on
> Windows and/or JACK MIDI.

It exists, but I wouldn't really suggest it.  Nobody much uses it.  On
OS/X it's more attractive (for audio at least) because it's reasonably
easy to set up and integrates with all the other CoreAudio
applications.  No idea what MIDI support is like.

PortAudio works pretty well on Windows and OS/X as well.

RtMidi is functional, if a bit limited -- it might be better treated
as a tutorial for the platform's native MIDI rather than a target
library in its own right.  Also it doesn't handle queue timing, which
would be the biggest issue for non-ALSA targets.

I haven't tried PortMidi.

> I suggest that if users really want to see Windows and/or OS-X ports, donating
> cash is an option.  What does a copy of Windows cost these days?

Over here, £220 for a business edition, somewhat less for a home
edition.  (Applying the inexorable logic of software exchange rates, I
imagine that probably means over there it would cost $220.)

Unlike OS/X, you can run Windows very nicely in VirtualBox on a Linux
host, which is handy for porting and means you don't even have to
spare a hard drive.  If I were working on Rosegarden-for-Windows I
would probably do all my builds using mingw32 on Linux and simply test
them on a virtual Windows instance.


Chris

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[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Chris Cannam wrote:

>> Would that work on Windows at all?  I'm not clear on the status of JACK on
>> Windows and/or JACK MIDI.
>
> It exists, but I wouldn't really suggest it.  Nobody much uses it.

Just you wait for the next MuseScore release :)

Alexandre

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[Julie S]

Hello All,

Concerning this:

> > I suggest that if users really want to see Windows
> and/or OS-X ports, donating
> > cash is an option.  What does a copy of Windows cost
> these days?
>
> Over here, £220 for a business edition, somewhat less for
> a home
> edition.  (Applying the inexorable logic of software
> exchange rates, I
> imagine that probably means over there it would cost
> $220.)

I bought XP in January for $35 US via Volume License through my University.  Has a couple strings attached, but a fully licensed copy.

Sincerely,
Julie S.



     

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[Chris Fryer]

I'm having difficulty getting the PropertyControlRuler to track Notation
properly.

The problem is in knowing when elements have been changed. Particularly
when their X position has changed.

I've implemented a complete sweep of visible and selected items during
the ControlRuler update(). The problem is that elements are not
initialised to an X value on creation but are modified some time after.

Adding segments works OK but it turns out that this is based on a
ControlRuler update being triggered by a selection change on the staff
_after_ modifications have been made to the elements.

Undo and Redo do not cause this convenient selection change event so the
new control items appear with their initial X value of zero.

Where are the new (or changed) notation elements initialised?
Is there one place where I can produce an elements modified signal?

Chris


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