Any reason for why Java (say) 10 could not be like Groovy?

[Moe-25]

I am trying to find arguments to why Sun couldn't/wouldn't be able to deliver on functionalities similar to Groovy's in future versions with Java.

What is the chance of one day Java having all the same functionality and productivity level as Groovy? 

What are the obstacles?

What's the time period we are looking at?

What will that mean for Groovy?

Is there perhaps a too big difference in philosophy between the two languages that perhaps Java would never be able to deliver on a Groovy language? 

Is it more likely that Sun might produce an alternative Java language similar to Groovy?

Any thoughts or information on this?

Sincerely / Moe

[Chris Broadfoot]

Doubtful.

Java will always be a statically typed language.

That's not to say that Java won't become a more productive language to
work with in the future, but I don't think Java will ever become
similar to Groovy (for some definition of similar).

> Is it more likely that Sun might produce an alternative Java language
> similar to Groovy?

Sun already supports JRuby.

Chris

2009/10/31 Moe <mohamed5432154321@...>:

> I am trying to find arguments to why Sun couldn't/wouldn't be able to
> deliver on functionalities similar to Groovy's in future versions with Java.
> What is the chance of one day Java having all the same functionality and
> productivity level as Groovy?
> What are the obstacles?
> What's the time period we are looking at?
> What will that mean for Groovy?
> Is there perhaps a too big difference in philosophy between the two
> languages that perhaps Java would never be able to deliver on a Groovy
> language?
> Any thoughts or information on this?
> Sincerely / Moe
>
>

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[Russel Winder-4]

On Fri, 2009-10-30 at 17:49 +0100, Moe wrote:
> I am trying to find arguments to why Sun couldn't/wouldn't be able to
> deliver on functionalities similar to Groovy's in future versions with
> Java.
>
Because Java is statically typed and Groovy isn't.  This provides some
serious boundary walls.  Java and Scala can be put into one bag, Jython,
JRuby, Clojure, Groovy and BeanShell have to be put in a different bar.
>
> What is the chance of one day Java having all the same functionality
> and productivity level as Groovy?

Zero!

> What are the obstacles?
>
Static typing vs dynamic.

> What's the time period we are looking at?

Heat death of the universe ;-)

> What will that mean for Groovy?
>
Not a lot to be honest.  The Java/Groovy relationship is basically fixed
for all time by the static typing issue.

> Is there perhaps a too big difference in philosophy between the two
> languages that perhaps Java would never be able to deliver on a Groovy
> language?

Yes, and why should it.  Statically typed languages have their place and
are useful for it.  Java and Scala fill that space.  Groovy is in the
space with Jython, JRuby, Clojure and these enable different approaches
to algorithm.

> Is it more likely that Sun might produce an alternative Java language
> similar to Groovy?
>
No.  For whatever reasons Sun invested in Jython and JRuby (for a while)
but only flirted with Groovy.  As to the future, the Oracle board of
directors will decide.

> Any thoughts or information on this?
>
Yes, see above :-)

--
Russel.
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[Russel Winder-4]

On Sat, 2009-10-31 at 03:59 +1100, Chris Broadfoot wrote:

> Doubtful.
>
> Java will always be a statically typed language.
>
> That's not to say that Java won't become a more productive language to
> work with in the future, but I don't think Java will ever become
> similar to Groovy (for some definition of similar).
>
> > Is it more likely that Sun might produce an alternative Java language
> > similar to Groovy?
>
> Sun already supports JRuby.

Past tense though.  The JRuby folk have moved from Sun to elsewhere.

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      Partner
                                            xmpp: russel@...
Concertant LLP        t: [phone], [phone]
41 Buckmaster Road,   f: [phone]   voip: sip:russel.winder@...
London SW11 1EN, UK   m: [phone]   skype: russel_winder

[Moe-25]

> Is it more likely that Sun might produce an alternative Java language
> similar to Groovy?

Sun already supports JRuby.

I don't believe JRuby will ever be mass adopted because of  the gap in syntax between the two languages. The hurdle for a Java developer to switch is to big compared to Groovy. 

No.  For whatever reasons Sun invested in Jython and JRuby (for a while)

but only flirted with Groovy.  As to the future, the Oracle board of

directors will decide.

I am thinking the reason to support these languages is to kill them of gradually. A Ruby or Python developer might consider moving to JRuby and Jython, and enter the Java world. When developers has to choose what platform to go with, and weigh pros and cons, the JVM will have all features and support for much more than just going with the Ruby or Pyhton platform.

I doubt that big crowds of Java developers will ever make the switch to JRuby or Jython because it just feels unnatural. So I don't really consider these languages as a threat to Groovy domination. When it comes to Scala vs Groovy the dynamic choice and Groovy's closer syntax to Java is going to play the ultimate role. Unless Sun copies Groovy and pushes it out as its own, Groovy will continue to be the choice. Groovy does have big players behind it now and a big leap, so I am starting to feel pretty convinced :)

[Mark Haniford]

Moe wrote:
>
>
>
> I don't believe JRuby will ever be mass adopted because of  the gap in
> syntax between the two languages. The hurdle for a Java developer to
> switch is to big compared to Groovy.
>

Instead of saying that Java developers are too stupid to learn the Ruby
syntax,  you should  have said that Groovy being an almost superset of
Java itself makes transitioning into Groovy via mixed language support
works better in Groovy.

> I am thinking the reason to support these languages is to kill them of
> gradually. A Ruby or Python developer might consider moving to JRuby
> and Jython, and enter the Java world. When developers has to choose
> what platform to go with, and weigh pros and cons, the JVM will have
> all features and support for much more than just going with the Ruby
> or Pyhton platform.
Sun only suppports/supported 3 languages directly - Java, JRuby,
Jython.  So by your logic, Sun is trying to kill off Jython and JRuby in
order for these "enticed" developers to move to the only language they
have left.....Java?


> I doubt that big crowds of Java developers will ever make the switch
> to JRuby or Jython because it just feels unnatural. So I don't really
> consider these languages as a threat to Groovy domination. When it
> comes to Scala vs Groovy the dynamic choice and Groovy's closer syntax
> to Java is going to play the ultimate role. Unless Sun copies Groovy
> and pushes it out as its own, Groovy will continue to be the choice.
> Groovy does have big playerrs behind it now and a big leap, so I am
> starting to feel pretty convinced :)
>

Groovy's dynamic typing is a big hinderance to mass adoption.  In fact,
it's basically a non-starter.  Scala has its own issues.   I guess
there's always the polygot argument, but it's just another language that
management has to get developers to know.

In any case,  the way that Java progresses, most of us will be retired
by the time Java 10 comes out ;)

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[Robert Fischer]

Java will always be statically typed (as noted before), which means there would have to be a
revolution in type system theory to enable metaClass-style type mangling.

Of course, at the current rate of JVM releases, Java 10 is going to be sometime around 2020 (no,
really), so who knows what might happen in the next decade.

In the meantime, check out Project Coin: http://wikis.sun.com/display/ProjectCoin/2009ProposalsTOC

~~ Robert Fischer, Smokejumper IT Consulting.
Enfranchised Mind Blog http://EnfranchisedMind.com/blog

Grails Expert Retainer Services
http://smokejumperit.com/grails-retainer/


Moe wrote:

> I am trying to find arguments to why Sun couldn't/wouldn't be able to
> deliver on functionalities similar to Groovy's in future versions with Java.
>
> What is the chance of one day Java having all the same functionality and
> productivity level as Groovy?
> What are the obstacles?
> What's the time period we are looking at?
> What will that mean for Groovy?
>
> Is there perhaps a too big difference in philosophy between the two
> languages that perhaps Java would never be able to deliver on a Groovy
> language?
> Is it more likely that Sun might produce an alternative Java language
> similar to Groovy?
>
> Any thoughts or information on this?
>
> Sincerely / Moe
>
>

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[Moe-25]

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Robert Fischer <robert.fischer@...> wrote:

Java will always be statically typed (as noted before), which means there would have to be a revolution in type system theory to enable metaClass-style type mangling.

Of course, at the current rate of JVM releases, Java 10 is going to be sometime around 2020 (no, really), so who knows what might happen in the next decade.

In the meantime, check out Project Coin: http://wikis.sun.com/display/ProjectCoin/2009ProposalsTOC

Thanks, great link! :)

 

~~ Robert Fischer, Smokejumper IT Consulting.
Enfranchised Mind Blog http://EnfranchisedMind.com/blog

Grails Expert Retainer Services
http://smokejumperit.com/grails-retainer/

Moe wrote:

I am trying to find arguments to why Sun couldn't/wouldn't be able to deliver on functionalities similar to Groovy's in future versions with Java.

What is the chance of one day Java having all the same functionality and productivity level as Groovy? What are the obstacles?
What's the time period we are looking at?
What will that mean for Groovy?

Is there perhaps a too big difference in philosophy between the two languages that perhaps Java would never be able to deliver on a Groovy language? Is it more likely that Sun might produce an alternative Java language similar to Groovy?

Any thoughts or information on this?

Sincerely / Moe

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