Any recommendations on rack-mount UPS?

[Rich Kulawiec]

It seems $dayjob needs one or two, somewhere in the 2u to 4u
range, for 2-4 low-end servers.  Remote control is spiffy but
not necessary; mostly I'm looking for something that gets the
basics right before worrying about nice-to-have features.  So...
I figured I'd poll the collective wisdom.

Thanks,
---Rsk
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[Lionel Peterson-2]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@...> wrote:
> It seems $dayjob needs one or two, somewhere in the 2u to 4u
> range, for 2-4 low-end servers.  Remote control is spiffy but
> not necessary; mostly I'm looking for something that gets the
> basics right before worrying about nice-to-have features.  So...
> I figured I'd poll the collective wisdom.

At work we've had good luck with the various APC SmartUPS units, they
have 2U (I guess) 2200 units that should keep a couple servers humming
along through brief power outages (but may require 20 Amp circuits).

New units are around $1K:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16842101134&nm_mc=OTC-Fro
ogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-UPS+(Back+Up+Power+Supply)-_-APC-_-42101134

But if you can stomach refurbs, here is but one example, older 3U
SmartUPS 2200 with new batteries for $329:

http://shop.1asecure.com/prod.cfm?ProdID=305425&StID=8432

Add-in management cards are available, and can be added later. The
newer units have USB & serial, and honestly I think if you attach one
server to the UPS, it can communicate to other machines on the UPS
over the network (this is a function of PowerChute software, IIRC)....

Lionel

--
Lionel Peterson
lionel4287@...
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[Phil Stracchino-3]

Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> It seems $dayjob needs one or two, somewhere in the 2u to 4u
> range, for 2-4 low-end servers.  Remote control is spiffy but
> not necessary; mostly I'm looking for something that gets the
> basics right before worrying about nice-to-have features.  So...
> I figured I'd poll the collective wisdom.

I still feel it's hard to go wrong with APC.


--
  Phil Stracchino, CDK#2     DoD#299792458     ICBM: 43.5607, -71.355
  alaric@...   alaric@...   phil@...
         Renaissance Man, Unix ronin, Perl hacker, Free Stater
                 It's not the years, it's the mileage.
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[Joshua Boyd]

Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> It seems $dayjob needs one or two, somewhere in the 2u to 4u
> range, for 2-4 low-end servers.  Remote control is spiffy but
> not necessary; mostly I'm looking for something that gets the
> basics right before worrying about nice-to-have features.  So...
> I figured I'd poll the collective wisdom.

I think APC SmartUPS is the way to go.

Also, I think this is a great item to buy refurbed, if money is tight.
In particular, I like the guys at think3p.com, although refurbups.com
has also been good.  I bought my own 4U UPS (4U because it was cheaper
than an equivalent smaller model) from think3p.com, which I originally
found out about from this list.
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[Rich Kulawiec]

Thanks, everybody -- I'm going with your recommendation(s).

---Rsk
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[Robert Darlington]

Consider Liebert.  In my circle, APC sells junk.  No matter what, if you
care about it, I'd go with AGM batteries in the very least.  You'll wish you
did when the day comes and you need to get the old gel cells out, but you
can't because they swelled up and are permanently locked inside the
equipment.

-Bob

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@...> wrote:

> Thanks, everybody -- I'm going with your recommendation(s).
>
> ---Rsk
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
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[Phil Stracchino-3]

Robert Darlington wrote:
> Consider Liebert.  In my circle, APC sells junk.  No matter what, if you
> care about it, I'd go with AGM batteries in the very least.  You'll wish you
> did when the day comes and you need to get the old gel cells out, but you
> can't because they swelled up and are permanently locked inside the
> equipment.

I've only ever once had that happen on an APC UPS.  APC sent us a brand
new UPS with batteries and a prepaid shipping ticket to ship the old one
back to them for failure analysis, because "That should never happen.
We want to know what went wrong."


--
  Phil Stracchino, CDK#2     DoD#299792458     ICBM: 43.5607, -71.355
  alaric@...   alaric@...   phil@...
         Renaissance Man, Unix ronin, Perl hacker, Free Stater
                 It's not the years, it's the mileage.
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[Dan Sikorski]

Phil Stracchino wrote:

> Robert Darlington wrote:
>  
>> Consider Liebert.  In my circle, APC sells junk.  No matter what, if you
>> care about it, I'd go with AGM batteries in the very least.  You'll wish you
>> did when the day comes and you need to get the old gel cells out, but you
>> can't because they swelled up and are permanently locked inside the
>> equipment.
>>    
>
> I've only ever once had that happen on an APC UPS.  APC sent us a brand
> new UPS with batteries and a prepaid shipping ticket to ship the old one
> back to them for failure analysis, because "That should never happen.
> We want to know what went wrong."
>
>  

My Liebert UPSs (two PowerSure Interactive 1000's) have never done that,
but I have had several APC's that have.  I have noticed, however, that
my Lieberts shut themselves down and refuse to power on when their
batteries are at the end of their useful life, but the APC's keep going
and light up the bad battery indicator.  I haven't decided which
behavior I like less.

    -Dan Sikorski
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[Lionel Peterson-2]

On Oct 12, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Robert Darlington  
<rdarlington@...> wrote:

> Consider Liebert.  In my circle, APC sells junk.  No matter what, if  
> you
> care about it, I'd go with AGM batteries in the very least.  You'll  
> wish you
> did when the day comes and you need to get the old gel cells out,  
> but you
> can't because they swelled up and are permanently locked inside the
> equipment.

I've seen that behavior in a Symmetra from APC, but our unit is old  
enough to have ZERO trade-in value. The battery trays swelled so much  
that we had to dis-Assemble the UPS to get them out, but I didn't  
consider that when making my recommendation because the OPs needs were  
an order of magnitude lower.

APC rackmount-class UPSes have a great track record, in my experience.  
My only other experience was with wet cells in telco switching centers.

I'd agree with Liebert for a datacenter-level need.

Lionel
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[Ethan O'Toole]

I've had several APC UPSes that had battery swelling.

I've had small APCs that cut off when the batteries died.

I've killed em by overloading them.

You can get them cheap or for free with dead batteries then replace the
batteries.


--
.-[ Ethan O'Toole ]--------+ - - - - - - - - - +----.
: FLICKR   http://www.flickr.com/photos/ethanotoole :
: HOMEPAGE " users.757.org/~ethan                   .
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[stephen price]

Wow - I just recently fought with 6 different units that I had to physically
disassemble to get the bloated cells out of every one of them.


> Consider Liebert.  In my circle, APC sells junk.  No matter what, if you >
care about it, I'd go with AGM batteries in the very least.  You'll wish > you
did when the day comes and you need to get the old gel cells out,
> but you can't because they swelled up and are permanently locked inside >
the equipment.
>
> I've only ever once had that happen on an APC UPS. APC sent us a brand
> new UPS with batteries and a prepaid shipping ticket to ship the old one
> back to them for failure analysis, because "That should never happen.
> We want to know what went wrong."
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[Patrick Finnegan]

On Monday 12 October 2009, Robert Darlington wrote:
> Consider Liebert.  In my circle, APC sells junk.  No matter what, if
>  you care about it, I'd go with AGM batteries in the very least.
>  You'll wish you did when the day comes and you need to get the old
>  gel cells out, but you can't because they swelled up and are
>  permanently locked inside the equipment.

The swollen battery problem seems to be caused by the UPS overcharging
the batteries.  The beige APC units seem to be bad about this, but I
haven't seen it happen with the newer black units yet.  

I second Liebert, and add Powerware/Eaton.  They both seem to have nice
rackmount units.  The only problem I have with the Liebert units that we
had at work were that replacing the batteries wasn't trivial - you had
to take the unit 1/2 apart to do it, which involves removing a couple
dozen screws, and reaching around live battery parts (a 96VDC battery
string) to disconnect the batteries.  Other units probably aren't quite
as bad.

Pat
--
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The Computer Refuge                  ---  http://computer-refuge.org
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[Rich Kulawiec]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:56:09AM -0600, Robert Darlington wrote:
> did when the day comes and you need to get the old gel cells out, but you
> can't because they swelled up and are permanently locked inside the
> equipment.

I'm about to reveal the astonishing depths of my ignorance, but could
you (or anyone) please explain why this happens?  (I've done a bit of
googling to try to spare you the question, but nothing I've gotten
back seems to actually tell me what I'm trying to learn.)

Thanks,
---Rsk
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[Joshua Boyd]

Patrick Finnegan wrote:

> On Monday 12 October 2009, Robert Darlington wrote:
>> Consider Liebert.  In my circle, APC sells junk.  No matter what, if
>>  you care about it, I'd go with AGM batteries in the very least.
>>  You'll wish you did when the day comes and you need to get the old
>>  gel cells out, but you can't because they swelled up and are
>>  permanently locked inside the equipment.
>
> The swollen battery problem seems to be caused by the UPS overcharging
> the batteries.  The beige APC units seem to be bad about this, but I
> haven't seen it happen with the newer black units yet.  
>
> I second Liebert, and add Powerware/Eaton.  They both seem to have nice
> rackmount units.  The only problem I have with the Liebert units that we
> had at work were that replacing the batteries wasn't trivial - you had
> to take the unit 1/2 apart to do it, which involves removing a couple
> dozen screws, and reaching around live battery parts (a 96VDC battery
> string) to disconnect the batteries.  Other units probably aren't quite
> as bad.

The Liebert that I removed batteries from was pretty simple.  It was
open door, turn a doohickey (not a thumb screw, but something with a tag
to twist, no tool required), and pull the battery out. Nothing to fear
in terms of personal damage, and no tools required.
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[Robert Darlington]

The problem isn't so much that it's APC, it's that APC uses gel cells (aka,
SLA or sealed lead acid).  These batteries swell, and sometimes even pop.
AGM batteries do not do this.  AGM batteries cost more, but it seems APC
does sell some units with these batteries.  I hate gel cells, but do use
them occasionally where swelling isn't a concern, such as on my bicycle for
the headlights.  I would never consider them for something that mattered
though.  You won't see them in airplanes or submarines and you won't see
them in my server room.

A friend of mine worked with the state of Florida on some railway project.
By random luck he noticed that there were service techs at railway crossings
changing batteries for the lights that are used in case there is a power
outage.  He chatted them up about it and found out that they changed their
SLA batteries out roughly once a month.  Pat worked with them to come up
with a solution.  The first part was to add a heat shield (just a piece of
aluminum over the box, spaced an inch or two over the box) and paint the box
white (NOT silver).  The other part was to replace the batteries with AGM
batteries.  Most of the batteries have now been in use for 26 years
continuously.  Gel cells can't take the heat, but AGMs don't like to be deep
cycled.  There are trade-offs, and I prefer to shut down servers before
depleting the batteries (which results in just a delay before the cord gets
yanked)  This keeps the AGM batteries happy and it sure beats trying to pry
out swollen batteries.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Robert Darlington
<rdarlington@...>wrote:

> Consider Liebert.  In my circle, APC sells junk.  No matter what, if you
> care about it, I'd go with AGM batteries in the very least.  You'll wish you
> did when the day comes and you need to get the old gel cells out, but you
> can't because they swelled up and are permanently locked inside the
> equipment.
>
> -Bob
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@...> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, everybody -- I'm going with your recommendation(s).
>>
>> ---Rsk
>> _______________________________________________
>> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

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[Rich Kulawiec]

It's amazing what you can learn hanging out on this list.  Thanks, everybody.

---Rsk
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[Scott Newell]

All this talk of UPS and batteries reminds me that I need some new ones for
my Powerware 9125.  I think it uses 4 x 12V 9AH.  Anyone know of a good and
inexpensive source in the US?

thanks!

--
newell  N5TNL
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[Dan Sikorski]

Scott Newell wrote:
> All this talk of UPS and batteries reminds me that I need some new ones for
> my Powerware 9125.  I think it uses 4 x 12V 9AH.  Anyone know of a good and
> inexpensive source in the US?
>  

It may not work for you, but you might want to look into setting up a
business account with Batteries Plus.  Their normal retail prices for
these batteries are high, but having a business account with them offers
substantial discounts.  We buy all of our standard sized replacement
batteries from them.  The werker ones that i buy for my APCs and
Lieberts are a common size that they keep tons of in stock.  After the
recent conversations, I checked it out and found out that they are AGM
SLA's.

    -Dan Sikorski
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[Patrick Finnegan]

On Wednesday 14 October 2009, Scott Newell wrote:
> All this talk of UPS and batteries reminds me that I need some new
>  ones for my Powerware 9125.  I think it uses 4 x 12V 9AH.  Anyone
>  know of a good and inexpensive source in the US?

I usually get my batteries from Portable Power Systems.  They have a
good variety, both in battery type and quality/cost, depending on what
you want to spend.  Plus, they have an easy to remember URL:

http://gotbatteries.com

Pat
--
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[velociraptor]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Robert Darlington
<rdarlington@...> wrote:

> A friend of mine worked with the state of Florida on some railway project.
> By random luck he noticed that there were service techs at railway
crossings
> changing batteries for the lights that are used in case there is a power
> outage.  He chatted them up about it and found out that they changed their
> SLA batteries out roughly once a month.  Pat worked with them to come up
> with a solution.  The first part was to add a heat shield (just a piece of
> aluminum over the box, spaced an inch or two over the box) and paint the
box
> white (NOT silver).  The other part was to replace the batteries with AGM
> batteries.  Most of the batteries have now been in use for 26 years
> continuously.  Gel cells can't take the heat, but AGMs don't like to be
deep
> cycled.  There are trade-offs, and I prefer to shut down servers before
> depleting the batteries (which results in just a delay before the cord gets
> yanked)  This keeps the AGM batteries happy and it sure beats trying to pry
> out swollen batteries.

AGMs handle all temp variation better, from what I understand.  I only
use AGM in my motorcycles now, especially in Vegas.  Normal lead-acid
cannot take the LV summer at all.

=Nadine=
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