While this is a bit of sour grapes, and I am overall thrilled to see a high profile website[the White House] switiching to an Open Source CMS[Drupal], it does make me think a bit about just what is it with about Drupal that makes it penetrate a bit further at the government level.
By the same token, the local county spent the past 6 months building out their tourism associated website. In the end, the functionality leaves me underwhelmed: http://www.ulstercountyalive.com/
For example, the lodging directory is fairly basic functionality - and no rss feeds.
I have found Drupal to have a stronger community of tech geeks using it, but a weaker community of functional users. A lot of components for Drupal tend to be "proof of concept' type's, where I can see how they could be extended to something functional, but their not quite there.
Joomla, by contrast, has a lot of apps which from a technical perspective are exactly the same but by changing labels and gearing, they are fully functional drop in apps to do something.
So why is Drupal making inroads while Joomla seems to be lagging? Any thoughts?
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I think it's politics.
From: Gary Mort <garyamort@...> To: NYPHP SIG: Joomla <joomla@...> Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 1:53:21 PM Subject: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
While this is a bit of sour grapes, and I am overall thrilled to see a high profile website[the White House] switiching to an Open Source CMS[Drupal], it does make me think a bit about just what is it with about Drupal that makes it penetrate a bit further at the government level.
By the same token, the local county spent the past 6 months building out their tourism associated website. In the end, the functionality leaves me underwhelmed: http://www.ulstercountyalive.com/
For example, the lodging directory is fairly basic functionality - and no rss feeds.
I have found Drupal to have a stronger community of tech geeks using it, but a weaker community of functional users. A lot of components for Drupal tend to be "proof of concept' type's, where I can see how they could be extended to something functional, but their not quite there.
Joomla, by contrast, has a lot of apps which from a technical perspective are exactly the same but by changing labels and gearing, they are fully functional drop in apps to do something.
So why is Drupal making inroads while Joomla seems to be lagging? Any thoughts?
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Gary Mort <garyamort@...> wrote:
> While this is a bit of sour grapes, and I am overall thrilled to see a high
> profile website[the White House] switiching to an Open Source CMS[Drupal],
> it does make me think a bit about just what is it with about Drupal that
> makes it penetrate a bit further at the government level.
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/26/whitehouse_website_goes_open_source/ >
> By the same token, the local county spent the past 6 months building out
> their tourism associated website. In the end, the functionality leaves me
> underwhelmed:
> http://www.ulstercountyalive.com/ >
> For example, the lodging directory is fairly basic functionality - and no
> rss feeds.
>
> I have found Drupal to have a stronger community of tech geeks using it, but
> a weaker community of functional users. A lot of components for Drupal tend
> to be "proof of concept' type's, where I can see how they could be extended
> to something functional, but their not quite there.
>
> Joomla, by contrast, has a lot of apps which from a technical perspective
> are exactly the same but by changing labels and gearing, they are fully
> functional drop in apps to do something.
>
> So why is Drupal making inroads while Joomla seems to be lagging? Any
> thoughts?
A note of research: Is there an advisory board for open source
technologies to the government, and if so who is participating there?
This is pretty much the case behind the White House website, AFAICT.
That said, this is a good time to compare the state of Joomla versus
the state of Drupal.
First off, I think Dries' blog post about the White House website
using Drupal is an absolute case study in how to perfectly word a
major success. His tone, writing style, and message are all dead on
the money. Perfectly written.
Drupal is very aggressively growing their community as an area of
focus, and as such is generating tremendous buzz which in turn feeds
their efforts. As well, their approach with the 3PD market is totally
opposite what Joomla inherited from Mambo (albeit some major changes
these past years). Combine the two and comparatively there's not a
whole lot of outreach from the Joomla project, nor aggressive
encouragement or enabling of the community for advocacy.
Lastly, having a well-funded, well-connected business like Acquia is
high risk, high reward for Drupal, as they can focus all of their
efforts through one organization, making it easier to target events
and get the most out of their available resources. Joomla's commercial
developer community is distributed over many small, non-funded
businesses that simply don't have the media or executive clout; and
lack incentive to band together to be one larger resource to the
project (and community).
In Joomla's defense, the project is a clear market leader and probably
does not see all that outreach work as priority; and it's clear from
the outside perspective that they are actively looking for more
volunteers to help with the project itself, and need those resources
for other things than outreach and PR. Different problems, I'd say.
* Drupal - focus is gaining market share, has tons of developers
* Joomla - owns the market, focus is looking for more developers
(needs reorganization)
That also means Joomla will not be a "hot topic" while it is in a
somewhat low-key phase, working on all these relatively internal
issues.
One totally random point that is key: Drupal comes out of the box with
loads of social features, and Joomla has NONE by default. With
everyone scrambling to be the next big social media hype magnet, first
impressions will always lead them to the platform that has all the hip
and trendy features out of the box, and that ain't Joomla.
That said, my personal take is that Joomla needs to provide some of
these features at a bare minimum, and I do believe some of them are
targeted for 1.6 at least. Chances are, as the base Joomla
distribution closes that social feature gap with Drupal, this
perception will change.
Mitch is dead on by saying its not as simple as J vs D.
Seems like this was the culmination of years of work by Drupal people in DC, targeting and learning how to get government contracts. O'Reilly has a blog post on how big these guys are thinking and how professionally they're doing business: http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/10/whitehouse-switch-drupal-opensource.html
" ... don't underestimate the difficulty of doing business in Washington. Procurement is done through a complex ballet understood by few open source companies ... a big IT deployment like this requires coordination between many companies, each providing a piece of the puzzle. According to techpresident.com, no fewer than five firms were involved in the switch: prime contractor General Dynamics Information Systems, Drupal specialists Phase 2 and Acquia, hosting provider Terremark, and CDN-supplier Akamai."
FWIW, he agrees with Mitch's point about the social features:
"Drupal has a huge library of user-contributed modules that will provide functionality the White House can use to expand its social media capabilities, with everything from super-scalable live chats to multi-lingual support."
The flip side is that Drupal has no commercial market to speak of - all the money is in custom work.
Steve
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Gary Mort <garyamort@...> wrote:
> While this is a bit of sour grapes, and I am overall thrilled to see a high
> profile website[the White House] switiching to an Open Source CMS[Drupal],
> it does make me think a bit about just what is it with about Drupal that
> makes it penetrate a bit further at the government level.
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/26/whitehouse_website_goes_open_source/
>
> By the same token, the local county spent the past 6 months building out
> their tourism associated website. In the end, the functionality leaves me
> underwhelmed:
> http://www.ulstercountyalive.com/
>
> For example, the lodging directory is fairly basic functionality - and no
> rss feeds.
>
> I have found Drupal to have a stronger community of tech geeks using it, but
> a weaker community of functional users. A lot of components for Drupal tend
> to be "proof of concept' type's, where I can see how they could be extended
> to something functional, but their not quite there.
>
> Joomla, by contrast, has a lot of apps which from a technical perspective
> are exactly the same but by changing labels and gearing, they are fully
> functional drop in apps to do something.
>
> So why is Drupal making inroads while Joomla seems to be lagging? Any
> thoughts?
A note of research: Is there an advisory board for open source
technologies to the government, and if so who is participating there?
This is pretty much the case behind the White House website, AFAICT.
That said, this is a good time to compare the state of Joomla versus
the state of Drupal.
First off, I think Dries' blog post about the White House website
using Drupal is an absolute case study in how to perfectly word a
major success. His tone, writing style, and message are all dead on
the money. Perfectly written.
Drupal is very aggressively growing their community as an area of
focus, and as such is generating tremendous buzz which in turn feeds
their efforts. As well, their approach with the 3PD market is totally
opposite what Joomla inherited from Mambo (albeit some major changes
these past years). Combine the two and comparatively there's not a
whole lot of outreach from the Joomla project, nor aggressive
encouragement or enabling of the community for advocacy.
Lastly, having a well-funded, well-connected business like Acquia is
high risk, high reward for Drupal, as they can focus all of their
efforts through one organization, making it easier to target events
and get the most out of their available resources. Joomla's commercial
developer community is distributed over many small, non-funded
businesses that simply don't have the media or executive clout; and
lack incentive to band together to be one larger resource to the
project (and community).
In Joomla's defense, the project is a clear market leader and probably
does not see all that outreach work as priority; and it's clear from
the outside perspective that they are actively looking for more
volunteers to help with the project itself, and need those resources
for other things than outreach and PR. Different problems, I'd say.
* Drupal - focus is gaining market share, has tons of developers
* Joomla - owns the market, focus is looking for more developers
(needs reorganization)
That also means Joomla will not be a "hot topic" while it is in a
somewhat low-key phase, working on all these relatively internal
issues.
One totally random point that is key: Drupal comes out of the box with
loads of social features, and Joomla has NONE by default. With
everyone scrambling to be the next big social media hype magnet, first
impressions will always lead them to the platform that has all the hip
and trendy features out of the box, and that ain't Joomla.
That said, my personal take is that Joomla needs to provide some of
these features at a bare minimum, and I do believe some of them are
targeted for 1.6 at least. Chances are, as the base Joomla
distribution closes that social feature gap with Drupal, this
perception will change.
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Joomla Training
<info@...> wrote:
> The flip side is that Drupal has no commercial market to speak of - all the
> money is in custom work.
That's the money-quote, as that is exactly where Joomla has been
headed dating back to the determination that extensions were
derivatives, and therefore subject to the GPL. That was a game-changer
for the community, for sure.
Not a complaint - no need to rehash old arguments - but this is what
the landscape looks like when there are no products, only services.
Each direction has their own benefits and disadvantages. I always
thought the commercial aspect produced good ol' fashioned competition
(and therefore choice for the consumer); however a lack of cooperation
makes it difficult for folks to find what they need, and distributes
resources doing duplicate effort for the most part. Drupal folks don't
have many competing efforts, so your path is relatively clear - and
all resources for a given topic are working cooperatively towards a
common goal.
~Please note, unless we agree otherwise, the contents of this email are confidential~
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Joomla Training
<info@...> wrote:
> The flip side is that Drupal has no commercial market to speak of - all the
> money is in custom work.
That's the money-quote, as that is exactly where Joomla has been
headed dating back to the determination that extensions were
derivatives, and therefore subject to the GPL. That was a game-changer
for the community, for sure.
Not a complaint - no need to rehash old arguments - but this is what
the landscape looks like when there are no products, only services.
Each direction has their own benefits and disadvantages. I always
thought the commercial aspect produced good ol' fashioned competition
(and therefore choice for the consumer); however a lack of cooperation
makes it difficult for folks to find what they need, and distributes
resources doing duplicate effort for the most part. Drupal folks don't
have many competing efforts, so your path is relatively clear - and
all resources for a given topic are working cooperatively towards a
common goal.
I just got a chance to read this thread and I really appreciate this measured discussion of the Drupal and Joomla development models with respect to their workability for Whitehouse website(s).
At the risk of this being a drive-by troll, however (since there really were a number of excellent points made) at some point one really has to acknowledge that the Drupal development model is just a better fit for the way people would like to see the government operate, namely that is a highly co-operative structure with clearly delineated areas of responsibility in a way that Joomla may not disagree with,but has not really effectively implemented. There are quite a number of lower level synergies as well (not to mention the gross disparity in enterprise penetration between the two systems) and without reducing the decision process to a J vs. D polemic, there really are a greater set of affinities on the one side, much more so than the other.
Of course one also has to recognize the myriad connections in Drupal's development history with political organisations, (e.g. Dean's campaign, which was really the precursor to Obama's "Internet victory.") Drupal in general just has a much greater involvement in that space. Also (and I realise I run the risk of being snarky here) it wouldn't surprise me if a look at the numbers revealed Joomla was being used in more instances for Republican candidate/official's websites; this is based on actually seeing Joomla used more on that side of the political spectrum. (With the notable exception being a certain unnamed Fox news site.) Not trying to incite a polemical debate here, I'm just sayin…
But perhaps the more interesting consideration is framework interoperability, specfically the services (and objects) that each can expose or make use of, and of course a shared semantic framework. So we are not talking about 'which' CMF but how they can be used together. The Drupal roadmap definitely includes GGG; I do not know where Joomla is with this, perhaps someone who does can speak to it.
Forest Mars -- "In theory, theory and practice are exactly the same. In practice, they're completely different." ------------------------------------------------------------------ This email is:
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I dug around and asked a few people, and the feedback I got on the
WhiteHouse.gov site moving to Drupal was simply based on Obama's
election campaign being run on Drupal, which was actually chosen by
the firm that Obama's campaign chose to hire for building the site.
This looks to have been initially a developer decision, which turned
into a lasting relationship for folks that learned how to use Drupal.
IMHO this is still a very compelling story for Drupal, and I'm not
trying to detract from it. Just trying to uncover how the decision
process was made in order to understand the selection process; and
basically learned it was due to familiarity of the developer hired to
do the work.
Pretty cool, and a recurring theme with open source and government uptake.
And for the record, Forest, McCainSpace was KickApps powered. :^P
Can I call you on my drive home around 4 30 to 5pm? If so what is the best number to reach you.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...>
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:10:03
To: NYPHP SIG: Joomla<joomla@...>
Subject: Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
I dug around and asked a few people, and the feedback I got on the
WhiteHouse.gov site moving to Drupal was simply based on Obama's
election campaign being run on Drupal, which was actually chosen by
the firm that Obama's campaign chose to hire for building the site.
This looks to have been initially a developer decision, which turned
into a lasting relationship for folks that learned how to use Drupal.
IMHO this is still a very compelling story for Drupal, and I'm not
trying to detract from it. Just trying to uncover how the decision
process was made in order to understand the selection process; and
basically learned it was due to familiarity of the developer hired to
do the work.
Pretty cool, and a recurring theme with open source and government uptake.
And for the record, Forest, McCainSpace was KickApps powered. :^P
Reporting from inside the Beltway, I personally know the CEO of
Phase2. The connections between the Democratic party and Drupal date
back to the Dean campaign, and as a business owner in this sector,
I've seen the Drupal companies thoroughly dominate in this arena.
At the same time, Joomla is still the only open source CMS approved to
be used in US Congress (we at PICnet made that happen 3+ years ago)
and it's heavily entrenched in NGOs here.
I think Larry and Mitch have it right: we simply need to do a better
job sharing professionally crafted success stories. This is a big
topic that I speak about a lot at Joomla Days and on the OSM Board,
and I'm excited to gather best practices from others an move forward
in the right direction.
> Can I call you on my drive home around 4 30 to 5pm? If so what is
> the best number to reach you.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...>
> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:10:03
> To: NYPHP SIG: Joomla<joomla@...>
> Subject: Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
>
> I dug around and asked a few people, and the feedback I got on the
> WhiteHouse.gov site moving to Drupal was simply based on Obama's
> election campaign being run on Drupal, which was actually chosen by
> the firm that Obama's campaign chose to hire for building the site.
>
> This looks to have been initially a developer decision, which turned
> into a lasting relationship for folks that learned how to use Drupal.
>
> IMHO this is still a very compelling story for Drupal, and I'm not
> trying to detract from it. Just trying to uncover how the decision
> process was made in order to understand the selection process; and
> basically learned it was due to familiarity of the developer hired to
> do the work.
>
> Pretty cool, and a recurring theme with open source and government
> uptake.
>
> And for the record, Forest, McCainSpace was KickApps powered. :^P
>
> -- Mitch
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP SIG: Joomla! Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/joomla >
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com >
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > _______________________________________________
> New York PHP SIG: Joomla! Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/joomla >
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com >
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
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I would like Joomla.org to showcase sites that have been created by joomla!
In addition we should 'recognize' the VP's and Presidents of the large organizations that have chosen to go the Joomla! route...
Ryan, is there a good way to do this???
Joomla! has made it to so many different areas...let's shout it out!!!
-- Laura
www.RytechSites.com Create Dynamic Websites for your Company with Joomla! CMS Create Captivating Websites for your Business with HTML/FLASH ....the choice is yours!
From: Ryan Ozimek <cozimek@...> To: NYPHP SIG: Joomla <joomla@...> Sent: Wed, October
28, 2009 3:13:42 PM Subject: Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
Hi folks,
Reporting from inside the Beltway, I personally know the CEO of Phase2. The connections between the Democratic party and Drupal date back to the Dean campaign, and as a business owner in this sector, I've seen the Drupal companies thoroughly dominate in this arena.
At the same time, Joomla is still the only open source CMS approved to be used in US Congress (we at PICnet made that happen 3+ years ago) and it's heavily entrenched in NGOs here.
I think Larry and Mitch have it right: we simply need to do a better job sharing professionally crafted success stories. This is a big topic that I speak about a lot at Joomla Days and on the OSM Board, and I'm excited to gather best practices from others an move forward in the right direction.
>
Can I call you on my drive home around 4 30 to 5pm? If so what is the best number to reach you. > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...> > Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:10:03 > To: NYPHP SIG: Joomla<joomla@...> > Subject: Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out? > > I dug around and asked a few people, and the feedback I got on the > WhiteHouse.gov site moving to Drupal was simply based on Obama's > election campaign being run on Drupal, which was actually chosen by > the firm that Obama's campaign chose to hire for building the site. > > This
looks to have been initially a developer decision, which turned > into a lasting relationship for folks that learned how to use Drupal. > > IMHO this is still a very compelling story for Drupal, and I'm not > trying to detract from it. Just trying to uncover how the decision > process was made in order to understand the selection process; and > basically learned it was due to familiarity of the developer hired to > do the work. > > Pretty cool, and a recurring theme with open source and government uptake. > > And for the record, Forest, McCainSpace was KickApps powered. :^P > > -- Mitch > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP SIG: Joomla! Mailing List
I will be able to establish the account without the minutes and bring in
the signature cards.
SW
On 10/28/2009 5:45 PM, Laura Gordon wrote:
> I would like Joomla.org to showcase sites that have been created by
> joomla!
>
> In addition we should 'recognize' the VP's and Presidents of the large
> organizations that have chosen to go the Joomla! route...
>
> Ryan, is there a good way to do this???
>
> Joomla! has made it to so many different areas...let's shout it out!!!
>
> -- Laura
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> www.RytechSites.com <http://www.RytechSites.com>
> Create Dynamic Websites for your Company with Joomla! CMS
> Create Captivating Websites for your Business with HTML/FLASH
> ....the choice is yours!
>
> JoomlaDayNYC.com <http://www.joomladaynyc.com/> We did it!!! Get
> ready for 2010!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Ryan Ozimek <cozimek@...>
> *To:* NYPHP SIG: Joomla <joomla@...>
> *Sent:* Wed, October 28, 2009 3:13:42 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
>
> Hi folks,
>
> Reporting from inside the Beltway, I personally know the CEO of
> Phase2. The connections between the Democratic party and Drupal date
> back to the Dean campaign, and as a business owner in this sector,
> I've seen the Drupal companies thoroughly dominate in this arena.
>
> At the same time, Joomla is still the only open source CMS approved to
> be used in US Congress (we at PICnet made that happen 3+ years ago)
> and it's heavily entrenched in NGOs here.
>
> I think Larry and Mitch have it right: we simply need to do a better
> job sharing professionally crafted success stories. This is a big
> topic that I speak about a lot at Joomla Days and on the OSM Board,
> and I'm excited to gather best practices from others an move forward
> in the right direction.
>
> Best,
> Ryan
>
> Sent wirelessly.
>
> On Oct 28, 2009, at 6:49 PM, sqwang01@... > <mailto:sqwang01@...> wrote:
>
> > Can I call you on my drive home around 4 30 to 5pm? If so what is
> the best number to reach you.
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@... > <mailto:mitch.pirtle@...>>
> > Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 15:10:03
> > To: NYPHP SIG: Joomla<joomla@... > <mailto:joomla@...>>
> > Subject: Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
> >
> > I dug around and asked a few people, and the feedback I got on the
> > WhiteHouse.gov <http://WhiteHouse.gov> site moving to Drupal was
> simply based on Obama's
> > election campaign being run on Drupal, which was actually chosen by
> > the firm that Obama's campaign chose to hire for building the site.
> >
> > This looks to have been initially a developer decision, which turned
> > into a lasting relationship for folks that learned how to use Drupal.
> >
> > IMHO this is still a very compelling story for Drupal, and I'm not
> > trying to detract from it. Just trying to uncover how the decision
> > process was made in order to understand the selection process; and
> > basically learned it was due to familiarity of the developer hired to
> > do the work.
> >
> > Pretty cool, and a recurring theme with open source and government
> uptake.
> >
> > And for the record, Forest, McCainSpace was KickApps powered. :^P
> >
> > -- Mitch
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP SIG: Joomla! Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/joomla > >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com > >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP SIG: Joomla! Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/joomla > >
> > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> > http://www.nyphpcon.com > >
> > Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > _______________________________________________
> New York PHP SIG: Joomla! Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/joomla >
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com >
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP SIG: Joomla! Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/joomla >
> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
> http://www.nyphpcon.com >
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.36/2465 - Release Date: 10/28/09 09:34:00
>
>
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...> wrote:
And for the record, Forest, McCainSpace was KickApps powered. :^P
Yes, that was pretty much my point: McCain/Joomla versus Obama/Drupal.
I guess the country has spoken! :-p
-Forest Mars
-- "In theory, theory and practice are exactly the same. In practice, they're completely different." ------------------------------------------------------------------ This email is: [ ] private: do not forward
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Forest --
Huh? KickApps is not Joomla.
Well, maybe we should get *Oprah* to use Joomla and then we'll take over the country.
From: forest mars <compustretch@...> To: NYPHP SIG: Joomla <joomla@...> Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:09:51 PM Subject: Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...> wrote:
And for the record, Forest, McCainSpace was KickApps powered. :^P
Yes, that was pretty much my point: McCain/Joomla versus Obama/Drupal.
I guess the country has spoken! :-p
-Forest Mars
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I don't know of an scientific survey, but yeah as amusing as it was last year to see Republican candidates using Joomla to try to keep up with an increasing reliance on Drupal by their Democratic opponents, it's was even more so to see Fox launch their Drupal based social media site this year— just as the Obama team was planning all their web site do-overs in Drupal.
Well, maybe we should get *Oprah* to use Joomla and then we'll take over the country.
Yes, for about 2 weeks until she publicly announces she's already bored with it.
And with over 2 million page views a day, I feel bad for the guy who is charged with getting Joomla to scale that far out. :-O
Subject: Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...> wrote:
And for the record, Forest, McCainSpace was KickApps powered. :^P
Yes, that was pretty much my point: McCain/Joomla versus Obama/Drupal.
I guess the country has spoken! :-p
-Forest Mars
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On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 9:45 PM, forest mars <compustretch@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Donna Marie Vincent
> <donnamarievincent@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> KickApps is not Joomla.
>
> Didn't we already beat this horse to death last year during the actual
> election?
>
> http://palinforamerica.com/ > http://palinforamerica.com/administrator >
> I don't know of an scientific survey, but yeah as amusing as it was last
> year to see Republican candidates using Joomla to try to keep up with an
> increasing reliance on Drupal by their Democratic opponents, it's was even
> more so to see Fox launch their Drupal based social media site this year—
> just as the Obama team was planning all their web site do-overs in Drupal.
>
>>
>> Well, maybe we should get *Oprah* to use Joomla and then we'll take over
>> the country.
>
> Yes, for about 2 weeks until she publicly announces she's already bored with
> it.
> And with over 2 million page views a day, I feel bad for the guy who is
> charged with getting Joomla to scale that far out. :-O
>
> -ƒorest
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: forest mars <compustretch@...>
>> To: NYPHP SIG: Joomla <joomla@...>
>> Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:09:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> And for the record, Forest, McCainSpace was KickApps powered. :^P
>>
>>
>> Yes, that was pretty much my point: McCain/Joomla versus Obama/Drupal.
>>
>> I guess the country has spoken! :-p
>>
>>
>> -Forest Mars
>>
>> --
>> "In theory, theory and practice are exactly the same.
>> In practice, they're completely different."
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This email is:
>> [ ] private: do not forward
>> [ x ] o.k. to forward
>> [ x ] o.k. to blog
>> [ ] ask first
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and
>> its affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version)
>>
>> iQA/AwUBRkjTLDbz7LySoccvEQJDcQCguZZj4M4kOVOlOX4CtbgR0rppsdovAjra
>> 3RRXIlkdzuYI0YJz4WyvKlTn
>> =MLhk
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The New TLDs are Here!
>> Switch to Name.Space: http://namespace.org/switch >> Support new domains & keep free media free! Register yours today!
>> https://secure.name-space.com/registry >>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP SIG: Joomla! Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/joomla >>
>> NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online
>> http://www.nyphpcon.com >>
>> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >
>
>
> --
> --
> "In theory, theory and practice are exactly the same.
> In practice, they're completely different."
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> This email is:
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> [ x ] o.k. to forward
> [ ] o.k. to blog
> [ ] ask first
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>
> iQA/AwUBRkjTLDbz7LySoccvEQJDcQCguZZj4M4kOVOlOX4CtbgR0rppsdovAjra
> 3RRXIlkdzuYI0YJz4WyvKlTn
> =MLhk
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> The New TLDs are Here!
> Switch to Name.Space: http://namespace.org/switch > Support new domains & keep free media free! Register yours today!
> https://secure.name-space.com/registry >
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP SIG: Joomla! Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/joomla >
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> http://www.nyphpcon.com >
> Show Your Participation in New York PHP
> http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php >
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 2:19 PM, forest mars <compustretch@...> wrote:
At the risk of this being a drive-by troll, however (since there really were a number of excellent points made) at some point one really has to acknowledge that the Drupal development model is just a better fit for the way people would like to see the government operate, namely that is a highly co-operative structure with clearly delineated areas of responsibility in a way that Joomla may not disagree with,but has not really effectively implemented. There are quite a number of lower level synergies as well (not to mention the gross disparity in enterprise penetration between the two systems) and without reducing the decision process to a J vs. D polemic, there really are a greater set of affinities on the one side, much more so than the other.
One thing I do prefer in drupal is that they choose the jquery model. While I prefer to program in mootools when given a choice, mootools is not a good choice for a CMS where you expect to have many people developing applications that work in conjunction with your own. It simply increases the chance of, from the users perspective, random pages not working properly because of javascript function name clashes. Jquery is the appropriate choice when you not might have, but actively encourage the combined of multiple application into one.
On the flipside...neither drupal or joomla ensure good code. My experiences with troubleshooting drupal sites have been all negative - but not because of drupal. Because the person who implemented Drupal, rather than using the content management system to...oh...manage content instead goes through and hacks the core code to display little snippets of html on certain pages. So then when someone wants those snippets changed, I have to go through and figure out what he did. :-)
Of course one also has to recognize the myriad connections in Drupal's development history with political organisations, (e.g. Dean's campaign, which was really the precursor to Obama's "Internet victory.") Drupal in general just has a much greater involvement in that space. Also (and I realise I run the risk of being snarky here) it wouldn't surprise me if a look at the numbers revealed Joomla was being used in more instances for Republican candidate/official's websites; this is based on actually seeing Joomla used more on that side of the political spectrum. (With the notable exception being a certain unnamed Fox news site.) Not trying to incite a polemical debate here, I'm just sayin…
Interestingly, I have found a no political leaning on the Congress websites. Each representative has their own web page, and I don't know if their using a shared server or VPS, but they have a broad mix of different applications. Some ASP based content management systems, a lot of Wordpress sites, and a few Joomla ones. I don't recall seeing Drupal on any. One of these days I'd like to figure out some way to automatically scan all 538(9? does DC's non voting rep have a page?) website pages and add up the CMS's in use.
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I don't recall discussions from last year re political websites, but the Republican presidential candidate's website was McCainSpace.com which was built by and run on KickApps, which is not Joomla. So until I see some numbers I don't see how this speaks to anything other than propaganda.
From: forest mars <compustretch@...> To: NYPHP SIG: Joomla <joomla@...> Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 9:45:26 PM Subject: Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
I don't know of an scientific survey, but yeah as amusing as it was last year to see Republican candidates using Joomla to try to keep up with an increasing reliance on Drupal by their Democratic opponents, it's was even more so to see Fox launch their Drupal based social media site this year— just as the Obama team was planning all their web site do-overs in Drupal.
Well, maybe we should get *Oprah* to use Joomla and then we'll take over the country.
Yes, for about 2 weeks until she publicly announces she's already bored with it.
And with over 2 million page views a day, I feel bad for the guy who is charged with getting Joomla to scale that far out. :-O
Subject: Re: [joomla] Any thoughts on why Joomla missed out?
On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Mitch Pirtle <mitch.pirtle@...> wrote:
And for the record, Forest, McCainSpace was KickApps powered. :^P
Yes, that was pretty much my point: McCain/Joomla versus Obama/Drupal.
I guess the country has spoken! :-p
-Forest Mars
-- "In theory, theory and practice are exactly the same. In practice, they're completely different." ------------------------------------------------------------------ This email is:
[ ] private: do not forward
[ x ] o.k. to forward [ x ] o.k. to blog [ ] ask first -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version)
iQA/AwUBRkjTLDbz7LySoccvEQJDcQCguZZj4M4kOVOlOX4CtbgR0rppsdovAjra 3RRXIlkdzuYI0YJz4WyvKlTn =MLhk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------ The New TLDs are Here!
Switch to Name.Space: http://namespace.org/switch Support new domains & keep free media free! Register yours today! https://secure.name-space.com/registry
-- -- "In theory, theory and practice are exactly the same.
In practice, they're completely different." ------------------------------------------------------------------ This email is: [ ] private: do not forward [ x ] o.k. to forward [ ] o.k. to blog
[ ] ask first -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version)
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3RRXIlkdzuYI0YJz4WyvKlTn =MLhk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------------------------------------------ The New TLDs are Here! Switch to Name.Space: http://namespace.org/switch
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I don't recall discussions from last year re political websites, but the Republican presidential candidate's website was McCainSpace.com which was built by and run on KickApps, which is not Joomla. So until I see some numbers I don't see how this speaks to anything other than propaganda.
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