Anything to do?

[Luis Araujo-2]

Hello,

How the GNU system development goes?,

I am gonna get vacations soon, and i want to know
if you guys need any help.

Regards,

       Luis


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[Barry deFreese]

Andrew Resch wrote:

> Hi Luis!
>
> Any help, I am sure, is greatly appreciated.
>
> A few things that I can think of right now that need to be worked on
> are:
>
> Installer for GNU - probably off a Live CD? I was thinking a live system
> on a cd that we could maybe just cp over to a hard drive?  The
> components for a proper Live CD probably still need some work.
>
> Packager Manager - we need to figure out what a GNU package will look
> like.. I believe Alfred probably has some sort of idea about that as it
> ties into the GSC I believe.  Maybe we could use apt to install the
> packages?
>
> GNU System Creator - still needs to be finished? I actually have no
> clue.. Last time I tried it out, it seemed to work quite well for
> building the few packages I tried.  Maybe Alfred can give us an update?
>
> I guess at this point we need to have some more discussion on what
> things need to be done and how we want them to be done.
>
> Alfred, could you please give us an update on GNU and what you think
> needs to be done and maybe some notes on how you would like to see it
> done?
>
> Anyways, I hope my jumbled thoughts help you out, and maybe we can spark
> some discussion ;)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>
> On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 01:27 -0400, Luis F. Araujo wrote:
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>How the GNU system development goes?,
>>
>>I am gonna get vacations soon, and i want to know
>>if you guys need any help.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>       Luis
>>

Andrew,

Alfred doesn't like apt.  I spoke to him about it ages ago.  I think he
was looking to use stow in some fashion.

Barry deFreese (aka bddebian)


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[Andrew Resch]

Hi Luis!

Any help, I am sure, is greatly appreciated.

A few things that I can think of right now that need to be worked on
are:

Installer for GNU - probably off a Live CD? I was thinking a live system
on a cd that we could maybe just cp over to a hard drive?  The
components for a proper Live CD probably still need some work.

Packager Manager - we need to figure out what a GNU package will look
like.. I believe Alfred probably has some sort of idea about that as it
ties into the GSC I believe.  Maybe we could use apt to install the
packages?

GNU System Creator - still needs to be finished? I actually have no
clue.. Last time I tried it out, it seemed to work quite well for
building the few packages I tried.  Maybe Alfred can give us an update?

I guess at this point we need to have some more discussion on what
things need to be done and how we want them to be done.

Alfred, could you please give us an update on GNU and what you think
needs to be done and maybe some notes on how you would like to see it
done?

Anyways, I hope my jumbled thoughts help you out, and maybe we can spark
some discussion ;)

Cheers,

Andrew

On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 01:27 -0400, Luis F. Araujo wrote:

> Hello,
>
> How the GNU system development goes?,
>
> I am gonna get vacations soon, and i want to know
> if you guys need any help.
>
> Regards,
>
>        Luis
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gnu-system-discuss mailing list
> gnu-system-discuss@...
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnu-system-discuss

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[Andrew Resch]

On Mon, 2005-07-18 at 20:09 -0400, Barry deFreese wrote:

> Andrew Resch wrote:
> > Hi Luis!
> >
> > Any help, I am sure, is greatly appreciated.
> >
> > A few things that I can think of right now that need to be worked on
> > are:
> >
> > Installer for GNU - probably off a Live CD? I was thinking a live system
> > on a cd that we could maybe just cp over to a hard drive?  The
> > components for a proper Live CD probably still need some work.
> >
> > Packager Manager - we need to figure out what a GNU package will look
> > like.. I believe Alfred probably has some sort of idea about that as it
> > ties into the GSC I believe.  Maybe we could use apt to install the
> > packages?
> >
> > GNU System Creator - still needs to be finished? I actually have no
> > clue.. Last time I tried it out, it seemed to work quite well for
> > building the few packages I tried.  Maybe Alfred can give us an update?
> >
> > I guess at this point we need to have some more discussion on what
> > things need to be done and how we want them to be done.
> >
> > Alfred, could you please give us an update on GNU and what you think
> > needs to be done and maybe some notes on how you would like to see it
> > done?
> >
> > Anyways, I hope my jumbled thoughts help you out, and maybe we can spark
> > some discussion ;)
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > On Sat, 2005-07-16 at 01:27 -0400, Luis F. Araujo wrote:
> >
> >>Hello,
> >>
> >>How the GNU system development goes?,
> >>
> >>I am gonna get vacations soon, and i want to know
> >>if you guys need any help.
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>
> >>       Luis
> >>
>
> Andrew,
>
> Alfred doesn't like apt.  I spoke to him about it ages ago.  I think he
> was looking to use stow in some fashion.
>
> Barry deFreese (aka bddebian)
>
>

Well, we'd need some way of getting packages off the net, or cd, or
whatever.. But maybe we dont need anything as complex as apt to do that
job if stowfs is doing everything else.

Andrew



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[Luis Araujo-2]

Andrew Resch wrote:

>Hi Luis!
>
>Any help, I am sure, is greatly appreciated.
>
>A few things that I can think of right now that need to be worked on
>are:
>
>Installer for GNU - probably off a Live CD? I was thinking a live system
>on a cd that we could maybe just cp over to a hard drive?  The
>components for a proper Live CD probably still need some work.
>
>  
>

Yes, that's what ive thought for the installer also.
Searching through the mailing ist archives, i found (looks like the
first email) a good description about what would be an ideal installer:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2004-04/msg00000.html

Now.. i wonder.. Is Wolfgang working on this?

>Packager Manager - we need to figure out what a GNU package will look
>like.. I believe Alfred probably has some sort of idea about that as it
>ties into the GSC I believe.  Maybe we could use apt to install the
>packages?
>
>  
>
No apt.
According to some emails in the archive, the idea is to use stow until
stowfs is written. But that's the package manager, what about the
package builder?

>GNU System Creator - still needs to be finished? I actually have no
>clue.. Last time I tried it out, it seemed to work quite well for
>building the few packages I tried.  Maybe Alfred can give us an update?
>
>I guess at this point we need to have some more discussion on what
>things need to be done and how we want them to be done.
>
>  
>
I hope so.

I also found a 'roadmap' in the archives:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2004-04/msg00003.html

In response to that email, Alfred, what do you think about pkgsrc
as package manager?

I also don't like dpkg/rpm, and might sound crazy for some of you,
but i actually would like more portage than apt.

NOTE: portage handles both binary and source packages.




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[Gianluca Guida]

Hi all,

On 7/19/05, Luis F. Araujo <araujo@...> wrote:

> Andrew Resch wrote:
> >Packager Manager - we need to figure out what a GNU package will look
> >like.. I believe Alfred probably has some sort of idea about that as it
> >ties into the GSC I believe.  Maybe we could use apt to install the
> >packages?
> >
> >
> >
> No apt.
> According to some emails in the archive, the idea is to use stow until
> stowfs is written. But that's the package manager, what about the
> package builder?

A first working version  for stowfs exists already, and it's part of
current unionfs CVS at hurdextras.
Actually there's still some design issue between Alfred and me on how
we should check for dependency when installing packages (by copying
them to stowfs). Simply staten, Alfred's position is to implement
dependency checking and solving as a part of the stowfs itself, while
I like more the idea of having a separate translator or script or
wathever to deal with this.
AFAIK, this stowfs hasn't still be used in the GSC because I haven't
finished the writing support for unionfs in a proper way, so helping
with stowfs/unionfs would be a good thing.

Hope this helps to help,
Gianluca

--
It was a type of people I did not know, I found them very strange and
they did not inspire confidence at all. Later I learned that I had been
introduced to electronic engineers.
                                                           E. W. Dijkstra


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[Wolfgang Jährling]

Luis F. Araujo wrote:
> Searching through the mailing ist archives, i found (looks like the
> first email) a good description about what would be an ideal installer:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2004-04/msg00000.html
>
> Now.. i wonder.. Is Wolfgang working on this?

Unfortunatly not.

Cheers,
Wolfgang

--
00000000 Wolfgang Jährling
01101111 http://www.wt-lorsch.de/
00001001 (Yin and Yang as
11111111  a 32-bit integer)



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[Richard Stallman]

    A first working version  for stowfs exists already, and it's part of
    current unionfs CVS at hurdextras.
    Actually there's still some design issue between Alfred and me on how
    we should check for dependency when installing packages (by copying
    them to stowfs).

Could you explain what it is copying, when, and why?  If this is
implemented on the Hurd, why does it have to copy anything?


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[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   How the GNU system development goes?,

Please see the TODO file in the GNU System Creator (check the mailing
list archives for information on how to get a copy of GSC).


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[Gianluca Guida]

On 7/21/05, Richard M. Stallman <rms@...> wrote:
>     Actually there's still some design issue between Alfred and me on how
>     we should check for dependency when installing packages (by copying
>     them to stowfs).
>
> Could you explain what it is copying, when, and why?  If this is
> implemented on the Hurd, why does it have to copy anything?
>
I've expressed myself badly.

I meant to copy packages trees into the /stow directory. This
is actually unneeded, since you could even make a symbolic
link of the package tree into the stow, exactly the way the
stowfs was planned to be working in previous talks in this
mailing list.

It's working on the Hurd, right now.

Thanks,
Gianluca

--
It was a type of people I did not know, I found them very strange and
they did not inspire confidence at all. Later I learned that I had been
introduced to electronic engineers.
                                                           E. W. Dijkstra


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[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   Alfred doesn't like apt.  I spoke to him about it ages ago.  I
   think he was looking to use stow in some fashion.

apt isn't a package manager.  Hence you cannot compare it to stow, or
even dpkg.  apt-get uses dpkg to install all packages and does some
fancy calculations so that you as a user can be lazy and not worry
about what packages the program you wish to install depends on.

GNU will/must have something like apt-get.


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[Alfred M. Szmidt]

The GNU System Creator is the package builder for the GNU system.


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[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   Actually there's still some design issue between Alfred and me on
   how we should check for dependency when installing packages (by
   copying them to stowfs).

I thought we had agreed that it would be a seperate translator...

   AFAIK, this stowfs hasn't still be used in the GSC because I
   haven't finished the writing support for unionfs in a proper way,
   so helping with stowfs/unionfs would be a good thing.

Nor have I had the time, machines, to build a system that would use
it.  I just got back from my vacation, and will move, so I don't have
a good computer to work on when it comes to hacking (if someone has a
laptop to donate, 400MHz would do just fine, please send me a private
mail).



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[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   Installer for GNU - probably off a Live CD? I was thinking a live
   system on a cd that we could maybe just cp over to a hard drive?
   The components for a proper Live CD probably still need some work.

Correct, we need to fix mkisofs so that it supports passive
translators.

   Packager Manager - we need to figure out what a GNU package will
   look like.. I believe Alfred probably has some sort of idea about
   that as it ties into the GSC I believe.  Maybe we could use apt to
   install the packages?

What the package manager will look like is already settled, it is a
file-system translator.  To simplify installation something like
apt-get will be needed.  But that is for later, first we need to make
stowfs work properly.

   GNU System Creator - still needs to be finished? I actually have no
   clue.. Last time I tried it out, it seemed to work quite well for
   building the few packages I tried.  Maybe Alfred can give us an
   update?

It needs a bit of polishing in some parts, specially when it comes to
patching various programs to work on GNU.  Otherwise, it should be
quite done unless someone knows of any features that might be
missing....

   I guess at this point we need to have some more discussion on what
   things need to be done and how we want them to be done.

There is a TODO file in the GSC arch tree.  That should contain some
hints.  I have attached that file at the end of this message.

   Alfred, could you please give us an update on GNU and what you
   think needs to be done and maybe some notes on how you would like
   to see it done?

The TODO file that is in GSC is attached, this is what I think should
be done.  If someone feels something is missing, please tell.


===File ~/slask/gsc/TODO====================================
* TODO list                     -*- Outline -*-

Time-stamp: <2005-02-21 05:40:46 ams>

* What needs to be done for GNU (Liberation)

The items are listed based on priority, I would like to see a system
that runs as a first step; which means being able to create the
system.  Then I think fixing the startup script is a bit more
important then writing a packagefs/stowfs translator since there is
already code that can be used.  After that is done, it would be wise
to concentrate on the packagefs/stowfs translator, so that one can
replace Stow which will be used as a bandage while we don't have
packagefs/stowfs.

The installer is of course crucial if GNU should get wide adoption by
everyone, and is a must for a official release.  Of course, these are
only my priorities, so feel free to ignore them.

If any details are missing, then please look at the mailing list
archives and send a patch that adds any such missing details to this
document.  It should document all decisions that have been made.

** the GNU system creator

This is what I am working on currently, it is meant to build the
packages that users can download from for example ftp.gnu.org to
install.  It isn't meant to be a package manager, but more of a
automated builder that would run on a dedicated machine, and compile
things.

*** packages to fix

This is a list of packages that aren't "clean".

**** gzip
Creates empty libdir.

Doesn't work well with --prefix=, some scripts get /usr/local as the
file name for gzip.

**** gdbm

Whats this?

checking for main in -ldbm... no
checking for main in -lndbm... no

**** automake
checking for tex... no

/bin/autoconf: /bin/autom4te: /usr/bin/perl: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
/bin/autoconf: line 271: /bin/autom4te: (os/kern) successful

**** bash

checking for default mail directory... unknown

Doesn't install info pages.

**** binutils

Remove /i686-pc-gnu0.3.

**** e2fsprogs

Installs gziped info page.

**** emacs

Installs info pages without a .info extention.

**** bison

checking for valgrind... no

**** help2man

checking for module Locale::gettext... no
configure: error: perl module Locale::gettext required

*** meta-packages

The following is a list of meta-packages that will or might be
provided.

**** sub-hurd

This meta package has been tested a bit, needs more testing though.

The following packages will be in this meta-package: bash, coreutils,
glibc, gnumach (gnumach-1-branch for now), guile, hurd, dmd.

dmd doesn't work yet, see next to-do item.

**** bootstrap

The following packages will be part of this meta-package: binutils,
bison, diffutils, e2fsprogs, emacs, findutils, flex, gawk, gcc, gdb,
gdbm, grep, gzip, less, m4, make, ncurses, perl, readline, sed,
sharutils, stow, tar, texinfo, grub, mig, parted.

**** GNU

I'm a bit sketchy if we should have a "GNU" meta-package, since I do
not know what it should include.  Should it include for example
everything that is part of the GNU project?  If not, what should it
exclude (anything that is dependent on X comes to mind, then we could
have a meta-package called GNOME that contains the X11 stuff)?

I would like for the later, but it would require that we have separate
packages for things that depend on X libraries, and this isn't very
good.  So I think that the solution will simple be: everything that is
part of the GNU project.

** dmd

This would be the program that starts all processes on boot, it is
very nicely written and has a very interesting design.  You can read
more about it at http://www.update.uu.se/~ams/dmd/dmd--0.7/README.

The latest release is available there too (~ams/dmd/).

** console at startup

The (saying new would be hilarious) console should start on boot up,
instead of the Mach console.  This is more useful for users, and
provides both UTF-8 support and virtual consoles.

A couple issues need to be solved in the console, the only one that
comes to my mind right now is that panics, and messages from
translators aren't shown in the console, they are shown in the Mach
console.

** packagefs/stowfs

This would be the package manager for GNU, it would sit on /package
and then "merge things into /, i.e. /packages/*/bin becomes /bin.
Installation is done by:

tar -xzvf emacs-21.1.tgz
ln -s /packages/emacs-21.1 emacs-21.1

And deinstallation would be to simply remove /packages/emacs-21.1.

*** write a canonical document about packagefs/stowfs

This document should include things that packagefs/stowfs should be
capable of, and how things should behave.

** (fancy!) installer

For wide adaptation of the GNU system it is important to have a nice
installer that makes it not only easy to use GNU, but also to install
it.  Wolfgang Jearlich tossed around a few ideas on how this installer
should look like.

*** CD booting

CD booting almost works, console-run is being unfriendly.  Fix GNU
Mach to not require a root device, grab it from Multiboot.

*** more discussion...

There should be a bit more discussion about how the installer should
be designed, and as always some kind of document outlining what it
should do.

** info-dir

This is the latest member in the family of
things-that-need-to-be-done, simply put it is a translator that keeps
/info/share/dir (a index used by GNU Info for looking up manuals)
updated automaticly, this means that one doesn't need to run
install-info or any other such hack when installing manuals.

*** write a canonical document about info-dir

Small summary of what it should do, my mail to
gnu-system-discuss@... is I believe sufficient.  But it should at
least be stored somewhere else then the mailing list archives.

* What needs to be done for GNU (???)

To far into the future for us to care about right now.  Lets get a
good release of GNU first before we even think about this in any
depth.

** uniting GNU

It would be nice to some how bring all GNU projects together, and make
them implement all kinds of nice things that the Hurd allows.

** autopackage

This would be similar to what some parts of GSC do, all GNU projects
should support a `package' target that produces a GNU package.  That
way we can remove the package creation from the GSC and let all auto*
projects pick the fruits of an easy way to create packages.
============================================================


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[Alfred M. Szmidt]

Let me elaborate, since my original response was a bit short.

   In response to that email, Alfred, what do you think about pkgsrc
   as package manager?

pgksrc doesn't manage packages, it builds them.  On GNU this would be
the job of GSC.

   I also don't like dpkg/rpm, and might sound crazy for some of you,
   but i actually would like more portage than apt.

We will have neither, the file-system will be the package manager.
See the TODO file for a short example of how you install a package.



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[Richard Stallman]

    I meant to copy packages trees into the /stow directory.

Why copy anything into anywhere?  I can't see why copying files is
needed for package installation on the Hurd.  My original proposal was
that /bin and other such dirs would be constructed virtually by a
special file system handler.  Instead of putting a symlink into /bin,
you just change the data from which the contents of /bin are computed.

Why not do it this way?


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[Barry deFreese]

Gianluca Guida wrote:

> Oh well,
>
> On 7/23/05, Gianluca Guida <glguida@...> wrote:
>
>>Now, by "copying" I meant to do something like this:
>>
>># cp /packages/emacs-21 /stow
>
>
> Imagine "-R" somewhere in the previous command.
>
> Thanks,
> Gianluca
>

Someone explain this to me.  All this seems like a convoluted mess.
What's the advantage here?

Thanks,

Barry (aka bddebian)
Confused as usual


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[Luis Araujo-2]

Richard M. Stallman wrote:

>    I meant to copy packages trees into the /stow directory.
>
>Why copy anything into anywhere?  I can't see why copying files is
>needed for package installation on the Hurd.  My original proposal was
>that /bin and other such dirs would be constructed virtually by a
>special file system handler.  Instead of putting a symlink into /bin,
>you just change the data from which the contents of /bin are computed.
>
>Why not do it this way?
>  
>

Yes.

** packagefs/stowfs

This would be the package manager for GNU, it would sit on /package
and then "merge things into /, i.e. /packages/*/bin becomes /bin.
Installation is done by:

tar -xzvf emacs-21.1.tgz
ln -s /packages/emacs-21.1 emacs-21.1

And deinstallation would be to simply remove /packages/emacs-21.1.



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[Gianluca Guida]

On 7/22/05, Richard M. Stallman <rms@...> wrote:
>     I meant to copy packages trees into the /stow directory.
>
> Why copy anything into anywhere?

This is just an option. Just creating a symlink into stow is enough.

>  I can't see why copying files is
> needed for package installation on the Hurd.  My original proposal was
> that /bin and other such dirs would be constructed virtually by a
> special file system handler.  Instead of putting a symlink into /bin,
> you just change the data from which the contents of /bin are computed.
>
> Why not do it this way?
 
That's exactly what it does. Perhaps we're misunderstanding about
what I meant to be copying, so I'll be more explicit and make some
example.

The stowfs actually works like this:

# settrans /bin /hurd/unionfs -m bin --stow=/stow
(imagine this for all meaning directories like /lib, eventually /etc, et cetera)

This makes /bin (and the others) to be handled by the stowfs. To be accurate,
/bin will contains all files (and eventually subdirectories) contained in
/stow/*/bin (a thread automatically updates entries when removing or adding
new entries in the /stow directory).

This is exactly what was discussed in this mailing list, and I guess
it's what your
idea of stowfs was about. Am I right?

Now, by "copying" I meant to do something like this:

# cp /packages/emacs-21 /stow

that is, to _copy_ the package into /stow (that is, having a real directory
into /stow instead of making a symlink). This was only the main way I used to
test the stowfs support (is more interesting on a debugging POV since files
are more slowly added into the union and I could test better the support for
dynamic insertion of directories). _BUT_ symlink are supported too, that is we
_can_ install emacs into the system just by doing:

# ln -s /packages/emacs-21 /stow/

So I am not talking about copying things to /bin, I was just talking
about the ways
to modify the /stow dir.

Hope this clarifies everything,
Gianluca

--
It was a type of people I did not know, I found them very strange and
they did not inspire confidence at all. Later I learned that I had been
introduced to electronic engineers.
                                                           E. W. Dijkstra


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[Gianluca Guida]

Oh well,

On 7/23/05, Gianluca Guida <glguida@...> wrote:
> Now, by "copying" I meant to do something like this:
>
> # cp /packages/emacs-21 /stow

Imagine "-R" somewhere in the previous command.

Thanks,
Gianluca

--
It was a type of people I did not know, I found them very strange and
they did not inspire confidence at all. Later I learned that I had been
introduced to electronic engineers.
                                                           E. W. Dijkstra


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