Are workspaces ready for tiki 4.0?

[Aldo-2]

Hi folks!

Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in wslib to improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the work is done. The things we have been working are:

1. Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in some functions.
2. Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this ws will have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
3. Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in fact, we considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main reason why categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
4. Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with categlib or other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged it with cache (when needed).
5. Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function used in wslib.
6. Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that allows the user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the perspective internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces and delete them.

Things to be done:

1. The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage ws properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-admincategories. The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single ws ... And more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage Workspaces we have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We need your help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
2. WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working properly, but with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
   
3. Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of functions in wslib in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
   

The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With this platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in Tiki. That means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of the users.

So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0 (even with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?

Cheers, Aldo

--
Aldo Borrero González
Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
Universidad de Alcalá de Henares

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[Jonny Bradley-2]

Hi Aldo

I've only had time to briefly scan your commits recently, and haven't  
manage to test of really have a good look at what you've been doing,  
so i don't think i can say one way of the other this week.

By the way, did you get my mails of September 16th (hacks in tiki-
admin.php) or 30th (missing database schema)?

jonny


On 4 Oct 2009, at 17:22, Aldo wrote:

> Hi folks!
>
> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in wslib  
> to improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the  
> work is done. The things we have been working are:
> • Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had  
> in some functions.
> • Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this  
> ws will have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove  
> it.
> • Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in  
> fact, we considered that categories are different of ws. This is the  
> main reason why categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
> • Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with  
> categlib or other libraries. For these special functions we have  
> turbocharged it with cache (when needed).
> • Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function  
> used in wslib.
> • Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that  
> allows the user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing  
> the perspective internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add  
> workspaces and delete them.
> Things to be done:
> • The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage  
> ws properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
> admincategories. The same if you want to add a guy to a specific  
> group in a single ws ... And more, this tasks are very tedious to do  
> right now. In Manage Workspaces we have basic functionality (create  
> a new ws, and delete them). We need your help here, specially GUI  
> designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
> • WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working  
> properly, but with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
> • Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of  
> functions in wslib in short time, so probably, there will be bugs  
> waiting us.
> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With  
> this platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in  
> Tiki. That means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the  
> feedback of the users.
>
> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0  
> (even with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>
> Cheers, Aldo
>
> --
> Aldo Borrero González
> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart  
> your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and  
> stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register  
> now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf_______________________________________________
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> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

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[Marc Laporte-3]

Hi Ben & Aldo!

For everyone:

As background information to get context about workspaces:
1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid (Feb 2009)
http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives, etc.).
It is also about massively improving the user interface.
3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate enough
to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN


Here is the state of things as I see them:

A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there are
profiles to test each feature individually.
http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing


Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
categories, etc):

1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories permissions, etc.
2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management

What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it in
one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but the
idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.


I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are some comment.

0- On fresh install, I get
--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
`position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
(42,'o','Leave this
Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
`url`, `position`, ' at line 1

1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
preference feature workspaces enabled

2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces

a) I see NULL at the top

b) general settings is empty
Why have an empty tab? What should go here?

c) Workspaces Dev Tools
Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.


3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php

a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis for workspaces.

b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
"There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
Please choose another name."

c) View: nothing happens
The page just refreshes


d) Delete: works
1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without warning.
That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
subscription, object permissions, etc. )


4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
"You do not belong to any workspace."

How do I get this to work?


5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite tricky
to modifiy because people start using.

tiki_p_ws_admin
tiki_p_ws_addws
tiki_p_ws_removews
tiki_p_ws_adminws
tiki_p_ws_adminresources
tiki_p_ws_admingroups
tiki_p_ws_view

Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?


There are category permissions:
tiki_p_remove_object
tiki_p_create_category
tiki_p_admin_categories
tiki_p_add_object
tiki_p_view_category

There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.


There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
corruption or be removed.)

One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade

I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature freeze.
Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to get
everything to work.


My proposal:
1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an experimental branch
2- Remove from branch4
3- Continue work in branch
3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
profiles and data channels
3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion in
4.1

What do you think?

Best regards,

M ;-)


On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:

> Hi folks!
>
> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in wslib to
> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the work is done.
> The things we have been working are:
>
> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in some
> functions.
> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this ws will
> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in fact, we
> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main reason why
> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with categlib or
> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged it with
> cache (when needed).
> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function used in
> wslib.
> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that allows the
> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the perspective
> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces and delete
> them.
>
> Things to be done:
>
> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage ws
> properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-admincategories.
> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single ws ... And
> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage Workspaces we
> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We need your
> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working properly, but
> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of functions in wslib
> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>
> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With this
> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in Tiki. That
> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of the users.
>
> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0 (even
> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>
> Cheers, Aldo
>
> --
> Aldo Borrero González
> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>
>

--
Marc Laporte

http://MarcLaporte.com
http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
http://AvanTech.net
http://OurWiki.net

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
_______________________________________________
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[Roberto Javier López Sastre]

Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only ones
giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk. Thanks
again.

I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but I
would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
the whole community.
We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are touching
the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help from
experienced users/developers.

What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
intensity in tiki this course.

To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I would say.

WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.

One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
improve there, and go back to trunk.

What do you think? ;-)




On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...> wrote:

> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>
> For everyone:
>
> As background information to get context about workspaces:
> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid (Feb 2009)
> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives, etc.).
> It is also about massively improving the user interface.
> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate enough
> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>
>
> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>
> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there are
> profiles to test each feature individually.
> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
>
>
> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
> categories, etc):
>
> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories permissions, etc.
> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
>
> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it in
> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but the
> idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>
>
> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are some comment.
>
> 0- On fresh install, I get
> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
> (42,'o','Leave this
> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>
> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
> preference feature workspaces enabled
>
> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>
> a) I see NULL at the top
>
> b) general settings is empty
> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>
> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>
>
> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>
> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis for workspaces.
>
> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
> Please choose another name."
>
> c) View: nothing happens
> The page just refreshes
>
>
> d) Delete: works
> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without warning.
> That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>
>
> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>
> How do I get this to work?
>
>
> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite tricky
> to modifiy because people start using.
>
> tiki_p_ws_admin
> tiki_p_ws_addws
> tiki_p_ws_removews
> tiki_p_ws_adminws
> tiki_p_ws_adminresources
> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
> tiki_p_ws_view
>
> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>
>
> There are category permissions:
> tiki_p_remove_object
> tiki_p_create_category
> tiki_p_admin_categories
> tiki_p_add_object
> tiki_p_view_category
>
> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>
>
> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
> corruption or be removed.)
>
> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
>
> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature freeze.
> Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to get
> everything to work.
>
>
> My proposal:
> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an experimental branch
> 2- Remove from branch4
> 3- Continue work in branch
> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
> profiles and data channels
> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion in
> 4.1
>
> What do you think?
>
> Best regards,
>
> M ;-)
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>> Hi folks!
>>
>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in wslib to
>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the work is done.
>> The things we have been working are:
>>
>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in some
>> functions.
>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this ws will
>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in fact, we
>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main reason why
>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with categlib or
>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged it with
>> cache (when needed).
>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function used in
>> wslib.
>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that allows the
>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the perspective
>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces and delete
>> them.
>>
>> Things to be done:
>>
>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage ws
>> properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-admincategories.
>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single ws ... And
>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage Workspaces we
>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We need your
>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working properly, but
>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of functions in wslib
>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>>
>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With this
>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in Tiki. That
>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of the users.
>>
>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0 (even
>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>>
>> Cheers, Aldo
>>
>> --
>> Aldo Borrero González
>> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
>> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Marc Laporte
>
> http://MarcLaporte.com
> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
> http://AvanTech.net
> http://OurWiki.net
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>

--
Rober

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[Jonny Bradley-2]

Hi Roberto and all

Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on  
too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC  
project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to  
essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!

To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to  
be done it needs to happen this week (according to http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)
  and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and  
review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it  
goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their  
studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day  
again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you  
around? You are King of Workspaces!)

So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very  
experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto  
LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that  
the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,  
even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS  
management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin  
page at the very least.

If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve  
such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?

We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking  
anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone  
else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can  
improve it after 4.0.

My two 'spaces,

jonny



On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier López Sastre wrote:

> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only ones
> giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk. Thanks
> again.
>
> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but I
> would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
> the whole community.
> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are touching
> the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help from
> experienced users/developers.
>
> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
> intensity in tiki this course.
>
> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I  
> would say.
>
> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
>
> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
> improve there, and go back to trunk.
>
> What do you think? ;-)
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>  
> wrote:
>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>>
>> For everyone:
>>
>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid  
>> (Feb 2009)
>> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives, etc.).
>> It is also about massively improving the user interface.
>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate  
>> enough
>> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
>> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
>> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>>
>>
>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>>
>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there are
>> profiles to test each feature individually.
>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
>>
>>
>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
>> categories, etc):
>>
>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories  
>> permissions, etc.
>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
>>
>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it  
>> in
>> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but the
>> idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>>
>>
>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are  
>> some comment.
>>
>> 0- On fresh install, I get
>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
>> (42,'o','Leave this
>> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>>
>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
>> preference feature workspaces enabled
>>
>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>>
>> a) I see NULL at the top
>>
>> b) general settings is empty
>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>>
>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>>
>>
>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>>
>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
>> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis  
>> for workspaces.
>>
>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
>> Please choose another name."
>>
>> c) View: nothing happens
>> The page just refreshes
>>
>>
>> d) Delete: works
>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without warning.
>> That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>>
>>
>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>>
>> How do I get this to work?
>>
>>
>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite  
>> tricky
>> to modifiy because people start using.
>>
>> tiki_p_ws_admin
>> tiki_p_ws_addws
>> tiki_p_ws_removews
>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources
>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
>> tiki_p_ws_view
>>
>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>>
>>
>> There are category permissions:
>> tiki_p_remove_object
>> tiki_p_create_category
>> tiki_p_admin_categories
>> tiki_p_add_object
>> tiki_p_view_category
>>
>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>>
>>
>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
>> corruption or be removed.)
>>
>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
>>
>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature freeze.
>> Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to get
>> everything to work.
>>
>>
>> My proposal:
>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an  
>> experimental branch
>> 2- Remove from branch4
>> 3- Continue work in branch
>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
>> profiles and data channels
>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion in
>> 4.1
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> M ;-)
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>>> Hi folks!
>>>
>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in  
>>> wslib to
>>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the  
>>> work is done.
>>> The things we have been working are:
>>>
>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in  
>>> some
>>> functions.
>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this  
>>> ws will
>>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in  
>>> fact, we
>>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main  
>>> reason why
>>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with  
>>> categlib or
>>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged  
>>> it with
>>> cache (when needed).
>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function  
>>> used in
>>> wslib.
>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that  
>>> allows the
>>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the  
>>> perspective
>>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces  
>>> and delete
>>> them.
>>>
>>> Things to be done:
>>>
>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage ws
>>> properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
>>> admincategories.
>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single  
>>> ws ... And
>>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage  
>>> Workspaces we
>>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We  
>>> need your
>>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working  
>>> properly, but
>>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
>>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of  
>>> functions in wslib
>>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>>>
>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With  
>>> this
>>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in  
>>> Tiki. That
>>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of  
>>> the users.
>>>
>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0  
>>> (even
>>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>>>
>>> Cheers, Aldo
>>>
>>> --
>>> Aldo Borrero González
>>> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
>>> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in  
>>> SF, CA
>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.  
>>> Jumpstart your
>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market  
>>> and stay
>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register  
>>> now!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Marc Laporte
>>
>> http://MarcLaporte.com
>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
>> http://AvanTech.net
>> http://OurWiki.net
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF,  
>> CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart  
>> your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market  
>> and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register  
>> now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Rober
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart  
> your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and  
> stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register  
> now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Xavier de Pedro Puente-2]

Sorry to hear that, Roberto.

And specially sorry because the start of this academic semester I had to
teach a new course, and I haven't got much time to dedicate to tiki (at
least to test and provide feedback on your work - Ben, Aldo & you).

I still wish some basic interface to create and edit worksapces was able
to get in tiki 4.x (if not 4.0, then later). But I know that we seem to
be limited in human resources (mainly developers, I guess) to work with
your team.

Alternatively, some "clear and easy" way (for end users) to manage
workspaces through data channels (or by any means) would be desirable
for tiki 4.x (I understand is not done either..., afaik)

So, I dunno what can be said about "workspaces" for end-users in Tiki4,
if we don't have any of those two options...

What do others think?

Xavi

En/na Jonny Bradley ha escrit:

> Hi Roberto and all
>
> Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on  
> too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC  
> project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to  
> essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!
>
> To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to  
> be done it needs to happen this week (according to http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)
>   and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and  
> review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it  
> goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their  
> studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day  
> again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you  
> around? You are King of Workspaces!)
>
> So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very  
> experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto  
> LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that  
> the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,  
> even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS  
> management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin  
> page at the very least.
>
> If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve  
> such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?
>
> We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking  
> anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone  
> else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can  
> improve it after 4.0.
>
> My two 'spaces,
>
> jonny
>
>
>
> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier López Sastre wrote:
>
>  
>> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only ones
>> giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk. Thanks
>> again.
>>
>> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but I
>> would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
>> the whole community.
>> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are touching
>> the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help from
>> experienced users/developers.
>>
>> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
>> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
>> intensity in tiki this course.
>>
>> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I  
>> would say.
>>
>> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
>> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
>>
>> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
>> improve there, and go back to trunk.
>>
>> What do you think? ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>  
>> wrote:
>>    
>>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>>>
>>> For everyone:
>>>
>>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
>>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid  
>>> (Feb 2009)
>>> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
>>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
>>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
>>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives, etc.).
>>> It is also about massively improving the user interface.
>>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate  
>>> enough
>>> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
>>> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
>>> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
>>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>>>
>>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there are
>>> profiles to test each feature individually.
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
>>> categories, etc):
>>>
>>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories  
>>> permissions, etc.
>>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
>>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
>>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
>>>
>>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
>>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it  
>>> in
>>> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but the
>>> idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>>>
>>>
>>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are  
>>> some comment.
>>>
>>> 0- On fresh install, I get
>>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
>>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
>>> (42,'o','Leave this
>>> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
>>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
>>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
>>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
>>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
>>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>>>
>>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
>>> preference feature workspaces enabled
>>>
>>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>>>
>>> a) I see NULL at the top
>>>
>>> b) general settings is empty
>>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>>>
>>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
>>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>>>
>>>
>>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>>>
>>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
>>> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis  
>>> for workspaces.
>>>
>>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
>>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
>>> Please choose another name."
>>>
>>> c) View: nothing happens
>>> The page just refreshes
>>>
>>>
>>> d) Delete: works
>>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
>>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
>>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
>>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without warning.
>>> That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
>>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>>>
>>>
>>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
>>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>>>
>>> How do I get this to work?
>>>
>>>
>>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite  
>>> tricky
>>> to modifiy because people start using.
>>>
>>> tiki_p_ws_admin
>>> tiki_p_ws_addws
>>> tiki_p_ws_removews
>>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
>>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources
>>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
>>> tiki_p_ws_view
>>>
>>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
>>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>>>
>>>
>>> There are category permissions:
>>> tiki_p_remove_object
>>> tiki_p_create_category
>>> tiki_p_admin_categories
>>> tiki_p_add_object
>>> tiki_p_view_category
>>>
>>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>>>
>>>
>>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
>>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
>>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
>>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
>>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
>>> corruption or be removed.)
>>>
>>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
>>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
>>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
>>>
>>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature freeze.
>>> Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to get
>>> everything to work.
>>>
>>>
>>> My proposal:
>>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an  
>>> experimental branch
>>> 2- Remove from branch4
>>> 3- Continue work in branch
>>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
>>> profiles and data channels
>>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
>>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
>>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
>>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
>>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion in
>>> 4.1
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> M ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>>>      
>>>> Hi folks!
>>>>
>>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in  
>>>> wslib to
>>>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the  
>>>> work is done.
>>>> The things we have been working are:
>>>>
>>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in  
>>>> some
>>>> functions.
>>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this  
>>>> ws will
>>>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
>>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in  
>>>> fact, we
>>>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main  
>>>> reason why
>>>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with  
>>>> categlib or
>>>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged  
>>>> it with
>>>> cache (when needed).
>>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function  
>>>> used in
>>>> wslib.
>>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that  
>>>> allows the
>>>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the  
>>>> perspective
>>>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces  
>>>> and delete
>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> Things to be done:
>>>>
>>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage ws
>>>> properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
>>>> admincategories.
>>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single  
>>>> ws ... And
>>>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage  
>>>> Workspaces we
>>>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We  
>>>> need your
>>>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
>>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working  
>>>> properly, but
>>>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
>>>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of  
>>>> functions in wslib
>>>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>>>>
>>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With  
>>>> this
>>>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in  
>>>> Tiki. That
>>>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of  
>>>> the users.
>>>>
>>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0  
>>>> (even
>>>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Aldo
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Aldo Borrero González
>>>> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
>>>> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in  
>>>> SF, CA
>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.  
>>>> Jumpstart your
>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market  
>>>> and stay
>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register  
>>>> now!
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marc Laporte
>>>
>>> http://MarcLaporte.com
>>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
>>> http://AvanTech.net
>>> http://OurWiki.net
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF,  
>>> CA
>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart  
>>> your
>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market  
>>> and stay
>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register  
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>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>>      
>>
>> --
>> Rober
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and  
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>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register  
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>>    
>
>
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>  

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[Roberto Javier López Sastre]

It's OK Xavi (and all) ;-)
So far we have been working to get a stable wslib, which now uses the
new and great perspectives.This is working I think.
More work has to be done with GUI for managing and admin ws, I agree.
Aldo has sketched his ideas but it's difficult to define the GUI of
such an important feature.

On the other hand Aldo is going to fix some of the things Marc pointed
in his email.

It's not important for us whether we branch again or not, although I
think the same as Jonny (+1 for ws in tiki 4 as a experimental
feature).

I would say Aldo & Ben can prepare a GUI if you help with the design.
The wslib is there, and it's working. We could do this this week.

Thanks ;-)

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Xavier de Pedro <xavier.depedro@...> wrote:

> Sorry to hear that, Roberto.
>
> And specially sorry because the start of this academic semester I had to
> teach a new course, and I haven't got much time to dedicate to tiki (at
> least to test and provide feedback on your work - Ben, Aldo & you).
>
> I still wish some basic interface to create and edit worksapces was able
> to get in tiki 4.x (if not 4.0, then later). But I know that we seem to
> be limited in human resources (mainly developers, I guess) to work with
> your team.
>
> Alternatively, some "clear and easy" way (for end users) to manage
> workspaces through data channels (or by any means) would be desirable
> for tiki 4.x (I understand is not done either..., afaik)
>
> So, I dunno what can be said about "workspaces" for end-users in Tiki4,
> if we don't have any of those two options...
>
> What do others think?
>
> Xavi
>
> En/na Jonny Bradley ha escrit:
>> Hi Roberto and all
>>
>> Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on
>> too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC
>> project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to
>> essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!
>>
>> To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to
>> be done it needs to happen this week (according to http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)
>>   and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and
>> review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it
>> goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their
>> studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day
>> again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you
>> around? You are King of Workspaces!)
>>
>> So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very
>> experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto
>> LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that
>> the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,
>> even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS
>> management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin
>> page at the very least.
>>
>> If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve
>> such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?
>>
>> We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking
>> anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone
>> else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can
>> improve it after 4.0.
>>
>> My two 'spaces,
>>
>> jonny
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier López Sastre wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only ones
>>> giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk. Thanks
>>> again.
>>>
>>> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but I
>>> would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
>>> the whole community.
>>> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are touching
>>> the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help from
>>> experienced users/developers.
>>>
>>> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
>>> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
>>> intensity in tiki this course.
>>>
>>> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I
>>> would say.
>>>
>>> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
>>> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
>>>
>>> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
>>> improve there, and go back to trunk.
>>>
>>> What do you think? ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>>>>
>>>> For everyone:
>>>>
>>>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
>>>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid
>>>> (Feb 2009)
>>>> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
>>>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
>>>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
>>>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives, etc.).
>>>> It is also about massively improving the user interface.
>>>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate
>>>> enough
>>>> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
>>>> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
>>>> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
>>>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>>>>
>>>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there are
>>>> profiles to test each feature individually.
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
>>>> categories, etc):
>>>>
>>>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories
>>>> permissions, etc.
>>>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
>>>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
>>>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
>>>>
>>>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
>>>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it
>>>> in
>>>> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but the
>>>> idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are
>>>> some comment.
>>>>
>>>> 0- On fresh install, I get
>>>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
>>>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
>>>> (42,'o','Leave this
>>>> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
>>>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
>>>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
>>>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
>>>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
>>>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>>>>
>>>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
>>>> preference feature workspaces enabled
>>>>
>>>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>>>>
>>>> a) I see NULL at the top
>>>>
>>>> b) general settings is empty
>>>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>>>>
>>>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
>>>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>>>>
>>>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
>>>> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis
>>>> for workspaces.
>>>>
>>>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
>>>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
>>>> Please choose another name."
>>>>
>>>> c) View: nothing happens
>>>> The page just refreshes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> d) Delete: works
>>>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
>>>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
>>>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
>>>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without warning.
>>>> That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
>>>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
>>>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>>>>
>>>> How do I get this to work?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite
>>>> tricky
>>>> to modifiy because people start using.
>>>>
>>>> tiki_p_ws_admin
>>>> tiki_p_ws_addws
>>>> tiki_p_ws_removews
>>>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
>>>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources
>>>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
>>>> tiki_p_ws_view
>>>>
>>>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
>>>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are category permissions:
>>>> tiki_p_remove_object
>>>> tiki_p_create_category
>>>> tiki_p_admin_categories
>>>> tiki_p_add_object
>>>> tiki_p_view_category
>>>>
>>>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
>>>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
>>>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
>>>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
>>>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
>>>> corruption or be removed.)
>>>>
>>>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
>>>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
>>>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
>>>>
>>>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature freeze.
>>>> Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to get
>>>> everything to work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My proposal:
>>>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an
>>>> experimental branch
>>>> 2- Remove from branch4
>>>> 3- Continue work in branch
>>>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
>>>> profiles and data channels
>>>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
>>>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
>>>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
>>>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
>>>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion in
>>>> 4.1
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> M ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in
>>>>> wslib to
>>>>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the
>>>>> work is done.
>>>>> The things we have been working are:
>>>>>
>>>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in
>>>>> some
>>>>> functions.
>>>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this
>>>>> ws will
>>>>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
>>>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in
>>>>> fact, we
>>>>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main
>>>>> reason why
>>>>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>>>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with
>>>>> categlib or
>>>>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged
>>>>> it with
>>>>> cache (when needed).
>>>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function
>>>>> used in
>>>>> wslib.
>>>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that
>>>>> allows the
>>>>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the
>>>>> perspective
>>>>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces
>>>>> and delete
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Things to be done:
>>>>>
>>>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage ws
>>>>> properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
>>>>> admincategories.
>>>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single
>>>>> ws ... And
>>>>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage
>>>>> Workspaces we
>>>>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We
>>>>> need your
>>>>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
>>>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working
>>>>> properly, but
>>>>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
>>>>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of
>>>>> functions in wslib
>>>>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>>>>>
>>>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With
>>>>> this
>>>>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in
>>>>> Tiki. That
>>>>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of
>>>>> the users.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0
>>>>> (even
>>>>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Aldo
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Aldo Borrero González
>>>>> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
>>>>> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in
>>>>> SF, CA
>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>>>>> Jumpstart your
>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>>> and stay
>>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>>>> now!
>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marc Laporte
>>>>
>>>> http://MarcLaporte.com
>>>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
>>>> http://AvanTech.net
>>>> http://OurWiki.net
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF,
>>>> CA
>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>>> your
>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>> and stay
>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>>> now!
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rober
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>> your
>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>> stay
>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>> now!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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>

--
Rober

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Hi - I've just been catching up with this thread - and I have to say it
would be very, very disappointing if Workspaces could not be in 4.0 in some
sort of basic form.

Is this the likely outcome??

Whilst I have not given it any direct attention so far I had been planning a
prototype site to use the WS capability once we reached the 4.0 release
candidate stage ie things were reasonably stable. I've got a specific use
that I need to deploy that WS seems to be just right for, so was expecting
to get very involved with moving the capability from basic to something
broader for the 5.0 release.

I thought that Jonny's idea sounded a good approach with WS being clearly
labelled experimental - but this does assume it doesn't break anything else.

Do we have a realistic view yet?

Geoff


-----Original Message-----
From: Xavier de Pedro [mailto:xavier.depedro@...]
Sent: 07 October 2009 13:54
To: Tikiwiki developers
Subject: Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Are workspaces ready for tiki 4.0?

Sorry to hear that, Roberto.

And specially sorry because the start of this academic semester I had to
teach a new course, and I haven't got much time to dedicate to tiki (at
least to test and provide feedback on your work - Ben, Aldo & you).

I still wish some basic interface to create and edit worksapces was able to
get in tiki 4.x (if not 4.0, then later). But I know that we seem to be
limited in human resources (mainly developers, I guess) to work with your
team.

Alternatively, some "clear and easy" way (for end users) to manage
workspaces through data channels (or by any means) would be desirable for
tiki 4.x (I understand is not done either..., afaik)

So, I dunno what can be said about "workspaces" for end-users in Tiki4, if
we don't have any of those two options...

What do others think?

Xavi

En/na Jonny Bradley ha escrit:
> Hi Roberto and all
>
> Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on
> too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC
> project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to
> essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!
>
> To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to
> be done it needs to happen this week (according to
http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)

>   and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and
> review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it
> goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their
> studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day
> again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you
> around? You are King of Workspaces!)
>
> So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very
> experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto
> LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that
> the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,
> even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS
> management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin
> page at the very least.
>
> If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve
> such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?
>
> We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking
> anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone
> else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can
> improve it after 4.0.
>
> My two 'spaces,
>
> jonny
>
>
>
> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier López Sastre wrote:
>
>  
>> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only
>> ones giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk.
>> Thanks again.
>>
>> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but
>> I would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
>> the whole community.
>> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are
>> touching the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help
>> from experienced users/developers.
>>
>> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
>> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
>> intensity in tiki this course.
>>
>> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I
>> would say.
>>
>> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
>> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
>>
>> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
>> improve there, and go back to trunk.
>>
>> What do you think? ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>
>> wrote:
>>    
>>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>>>
>>> For everyone:
>>>
>>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
>>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid
>>> (Feb 2009) http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
>>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
>>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
>>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives, etc.).
>>> It is also about massively improving the user interface.
>>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate
>>> enough to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for
>>> Ben & Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more
>>> people working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
>>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>>>
>>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there
>>> are profiles to test each feature individually.
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
>>> categories, etc):
>>>
>>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories
>>> permissions, etc.
>>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
>>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
>>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
>>>
>>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
>>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it
>>> in one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but
>>> the idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>>>
>>>
>>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are
>>> some comment.
>>>
>>> 0- On fresh install, I get
>>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
>>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
>>> (42,'o','Leave this Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
>>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
>>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
>>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
>>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
>>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>>>
>>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
>>> preference feature workspaces enabled
>>>
>>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>>>
>>> a) I see NULL at the top
>>>
>>> b) general settings is empty
>>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>>>
>>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
>>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>>>
>>>
>>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>>>
>>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group But,
>>> it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis for
>>> workspaces.
>>>
>>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
>>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
>>> Please choose another name."
>>>
>>> c) View: nothing happens
>>> The page just refreshes
>>>
>>>
>>> d) Delete: works
>>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
>>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
>>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
>>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without warning.
>>> That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
>>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>>>
>>>
>>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
>>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>>>
>>> How do I get this to work?
>>>
>>>
>>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite
>>> tricky to modifiy because people start using.
>>>
>>> tiki_p_ws_admin
>>> tiki_p_ws_addws
>>> tiki_p_ws_removews
>>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
>>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources
>>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
>>> tiki_p_ws_view
>>>
>>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
>>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>>>
>>>
>>> There are category permissions:
>>> tiki_p_remove_object
>>> tiki_p_create_category
>>> tiki_p_admin_categories
>>> tiki_p_add_object
>>> tiki_p_view_category
>>>
>>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>>>
>>>
>>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
>>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
>>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
>>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
>>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
>>> corruption or be removed.)
>>>
>>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
>>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
>>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
>>>
>>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature freeze.
>>> Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to get
>>> everything to work.
>>>
>>>
>>> My proposal:
>>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an
>>> experimental branch
>>> 2- Remove from branch4
>>> 3- Continue work in branch
>>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
>>> profiles and data channels
>>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
>>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
>>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
>>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
>>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion
>>> in
>>> 4.1
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> M ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>>>      
>>>> Hi folks!
>>>>
>>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in wslib
>>>> to improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the
>>>> work is done.
>>>> The things we have been working are:
>>>>
>>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in
>>>> some functions.
>>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this
>>>> ws will have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or
>>>> remove it.
>>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in
>>>> fact, we considered that categories are different of ws. This is
>>>> the main reason why categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with
>>>> categlib or other libraries. For these special functions we have
>>>> turbocharged it with cache (when needed).
>>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function used
>>>> in wslib.
>>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that
>>>> allows the user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing
>>>> the perspective internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to
>>>> add workspaces and delete them.
>>>>
>>>> Things to be done:
>>>>
>>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage
>>>> ws properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
>>>> admincategories.
>>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single
>>>> ws ... And more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In
>>>> Manage Workspaces we have basic functionality (create a new ws, and
>>>> delete them). We need your help here, specially GUI designers (like
>>>> jonny, luci, me ...).
>>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working
>>>> properly, but with a few tweaks ... we can revive it Report bugs
>>>> and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of functions in wslib in
>>>> short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>>>>
>>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With
>>>> this platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in
>>>> Tiki. That means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the
>>>> feedback of the users.
>>>>
>>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0
>>>> (even with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Aldo
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Aldo Borrero González
>>>> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
>>>> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----------- Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer
>>>> Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend
>>>> this year.
>>>> Jumpstart your
>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>> and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009.
>>>> Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marc Laporte
>>>
>>> http://MarcLaporte.com
>>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
>>> http://AvanTech.net
>>> http://OurWiki.net
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ---------- Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer
>>> Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend
>>> this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile
>>> applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from
>>> November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>>      
>>
>> --
>> Rober
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------- Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer
>> Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend
>> this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile
>> applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from
>> November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>    
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------- Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference
> in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
> Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications
> to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12,
> 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf 
> _______________________________________________
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>  

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[gezza nagy]

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I would also like to help in the design of the GUI, did you publish your plans somewhere? Is there a starting point for ideas?

I think if the functionality behind is more or less ok, lets put it to experimental, lets get used to having workspaces in Tiki :) we can continue to make the frontend fancier and publish the progress in the 4.x releases

thanks&cheers,
gezza

---

From: Roberto Javier López Sastre <rober.lopez@...>
To: Tikiwiki developers <tikiwiki-devel@...>
Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 6:10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Are workspaces ready for tiki 4.0?

It's OK Xavi (and all) ;-)
So far we have been working to get a stable wslib, which now uses the
new and great perspectives.This is working I think.
More work has to be done with GUI for managing and admin ws, I agree.
Aldo has sketched his ideas but it's difficult to define the GUI of
such an important feature.

On the other hand Aldo is going to fix some of the things Marc pointed
in his email.

It's not important for us whether we branch again or not, although I
think the same as Jonny (+1 for ws in tiki 4 as a experimental
feature).

I would say Aldo & Ben can prepare a GUI if you help with the design.
The wslib is there, and it's working. We could do this this week.

Thanks ;-)

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Xavier de Pedro <xavier.depedro@...> wrote:

> Sorry to hear that, Roberto.
>
> And specially sorry because the start of this academic semester I had to
> teach a new course, and I haven't got much time to dedicate to tiki (at
> least to test and provide feedback on your work - Ben, Aldo & you).
>
> I still wish some basic interface to create and edit worksapces was able
> to get in tiki 4.x (if not 4.0, then later). But I know that we seem to
> be limited in human resources (mainly developers, I guess) to work with
> your team.
>
> Alternatively, some "clear and easy" way (for end users) to manage
> workspaces through data channels (or by any means) would be desirable
> for tiki 4.x (I understand is not done either..., afaik)
>
> So, I dunno what can be said about "workspaces" for end-users in Tiki4,
> if we don't have any of those two options...
>
> What do others think?
>
> Xavi
>
> En/na Jonny Bradley ha escrit:
>> Hi Roberto and all
>>
>> Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on
>> too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC
>> project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to
>> essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!
>>
>> To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to

>> be done it needs to happen this week (according to http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)

>>   and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and
>> review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it
>> goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their
>> studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day
>> again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you
>> around? You are King of Workspaces!)
>>
>> So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very
>> experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto
>> LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that
>> the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,
>> even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS
>> management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin
>> page at the very least.
>>
>> If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve
>> such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?
>>
>> We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking
>> anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone
>> else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can
>> improve it after 4.0.
>>
>> My two 'spaces,
>>
>> jonny
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier López Sastre wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only ones
>>> giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk. Thanks
>>> again.
>>>
>>> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but I
>>> would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
>>> the whole community.
>>> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are touching
>>> the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help from
>>> experienced users/developers.
>>>
>>> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
>>> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
>>> intensity in tiki this course.
>>>
>>> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I
>>> would say.
>>>
>>> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
>>> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
>>>
>>> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
>>> improve there, and go back to trunk.
>>>
>>> What do you think? ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>>>>
>>>> For everyone:
>>>>
>>>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
>>>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid
>>>> (Feb 2009)

>>>> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
>>>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
>>>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
>>>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives, etc.).
>>>> It is also about massively improving the user interface.
>>>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate
>>>> enough
>>>> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
>>>> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
>>>> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
>>>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>>>>
>>>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there are
>>>> profiles to test each feature individually.
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing

>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
>>>> categories, etc):
>>>>
>>>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories
>>>> permissions, etc.
>>>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
>>>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
>>>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:

>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management

>>>>
>>>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
>>>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it
>>>> in
>>>> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but the
>>>> idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are
>>>> some comment.
>>>>
>>>> 0- On fresh install, I get
>>>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
>>>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
>>>> (42,'o','Leave this
>>>> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
>>>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
>>>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
>>>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
>>>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
>>>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>>>>
>>>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
>>>> preference feature workspaces enabled
>>>>
>>>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>>>>
>>>> a) I see NULL at the top
>>>>
>>>> b) general settings is empty
>>>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>>>>
>>>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
>>>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>>>>
>>>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
>>>> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis
>>>> for workspaces.
>>>>
>>>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
>>>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
>>>> Please choose another name."
>>>>
>>>> c) View: nothing happens
>>>> The page just refreshes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> d) Delete: works
>>>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
>>>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
>>>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
>>>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without warning.
>>>> That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
>>>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
>>>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>>>>
>>>> How do I get this to work?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite
>>>> tricky
>>>> to modifiy because people start using.
>>>>
>>>> tiki_p_ws_admin
>>>> tiki_p_ws_addws
>>>> tiki_p_ws_removews
>>>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
>>>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources
>>>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
>>>> tiki_p_ws_view
>>>>
>>>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
>>>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are category permissions:
>>>> tiki_p_remove_object
>>>> tiki_p_create_category
>>>> tiki_p_admin_categories
>>>> tiki_p_add_object
>>>> tiki_p_view_category
>>>>
>>>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
>>>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
>>>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
>>>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
>>>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
>>>> corruption or be removed.)
>>>>
>>>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
>>>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain

>>>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade

>>>>
>>>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature freeze.
>>>> Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to get
>>>> everything to work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My proposal:
>>>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an
>>>> experimental branch
>>>> 2- Remove from branch4
>>>> 3- Continue work in branch
>>>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
>>>> profiles and data channels
>>>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
>>>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
>>>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
>>>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
>>>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion in
>>>> 4.1
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> M ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in
>>>>> wslib to
>>>>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the
>>>>> work is done.
>>>>> The things we have been working are:
>>>>>
>>>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in
>>>>> some
>>>>> functions.
>>>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this
>>>>> ws will
>>>>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
>>>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in
>>>>> fact, we
>>>>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main
>>>>> reason why
>>>>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>>>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with
>>>>> categlib or
>>>>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged
>>>>> it with
>>>>> cache (when needed).
>>>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function
>>>>> used in
>>>>> wslib.
>>>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that
>>>>> allows the
>>>>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the
>>>>> perspective
>>>>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces
>>>>> and delete
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Things to be done:
>>>>>
>>>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage ws
>>>>> properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
>>>>> admincategories.
>>>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single
>>>>> ws ... And
>>>>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage
>>>>> Workspaces we
>>>>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We
>>>>> need your
>>>>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
>>>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working
>>>>> properly, but
>>>>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
>>>>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of
>>>>> functions in wslib
>>>>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>>>>>
>>>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With
>>>>> this
>>>>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in
>>>>> Tiki. That
>>>>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of
>>>>> the users.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0
>>>>> (even
>>>>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Aldo
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Aldo Borrero González
>>>>> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
>>>>> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in
>>>>> SF, CA
>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>>>>> Jumpstart your
>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>>> and stay
>>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>>>> now!

>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf

>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marc Laporte
>>>>

>>>> http://MarcLaporte.com
>>>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
>>>> http://AvanTech.net
>>>> http://OurWiki.net

>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF,
>>>> CA
>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>>> your
>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>> and stay
>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>>> now!
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rober
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>> your
>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>> stay
>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>> now!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!

> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>



--
Rober

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[Aldo-2]

Hi guys!

First of all thank you Marc. Thank you Jonny. Thank you Xavi. Thank you Geoff. Thank you Gezza. Thank you, because if you are responding this message is because you are interested in Workspaces.

I subscribe some things Roberto said before, if you think carefully, we are only two guys (and Rober in background helping us when he can) programming one of the most important feature that Tiki will have in the next releases. Most of the time we spent it trying to create things with logic, consensus, and of course watching how things was done before. But, after all, our experience with Tiki currently is only one year.

What am I trying to say with this? Well, we make mistakes. The problem is not about coding (for me PHP is very easy), is about how things should be done efficiently, or because Workspaces have a lot of uses cases.

We created wslib because we thought it was a logic phase in Workspaces. Latter LP give us Perspectives and perms-take 2. Which in union with wslib we can create "workspaces". And that is very cool.

But try to think as if you were me or Benji. In my case in summer I was programming like 8 hours every day, trying to get a wslib, to create ws handler, to try to figure out how interface should be, to think how the implementation should be done, to fix problems in Alma, to study for passing my career exams, to debug erros here and there ...

In my case every day I was solving too much things, and all radically different. So this is the main problem when you try to erase a workspace, you don't get a warning message. Or why you can only create one group, without the possibility to add more inside the workspace, or why when you go to the admin panel you only get a blank options page, and when you go to the script creator tab and you try to do something, it doesn't work. Or why the WS Handler is not finished, and has a lot of errors, or 20.000 things I should take care as a developer ...

Simply, I don't have enough time to solve all things. For Ben, the same.

As Roberto said before, Workspaces is a job that should be done with the help of the community. With all of you. You know that this is a big job, because Workspaces involves touching different pillards of Tiki. Gracefully, with perspectives this work is more easy. And of course, Workspaces needs Social Networking, and viceversa. With this we can create what Xavi de Pedro and Javier Reyes did (or thought) some years ago with Aulawiki.

In my opinion I'm going to fix all errors you report in your inform, Marc. I don't care if all of you prefer to revert back what we did to a experimental branch, but honestly, if you do this, Workspaces until 5 or even 6, are not going to be finished. Seriously, Workspaces needs to be in trunk, with this, the people can test this and know what are our plans respect to the futures versions of Tiki (we want to become more open, more social). Maybe some people see what we did, and say, hey, why not to help in this task?

Technically with WS Handler (fixing errors or coding some things again), and with some touches in GUI design, some test to wslib (and more cleaning to its functions) we can have Workspaces version 1 working very happily and ready for 4.1 or 4.2

But for achieving this, I say again, we need your help. In the next days I'm going to create a wikipage in dev saying what should be done to make this possible.

Thank you, and sorry for this long email.

Aldo

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 6:29 PM, gezza nagy <gezzzan@...> wrote:

I would also like to help in the design of the GUI, did you publish your plans somewhere? Is there a starting point for ideas?

I think if the functionality behind is more or less ok, lets put it to experimental, lets get used to having workspaces in Tiki :) we can continue to make the frontend fancier and publish the progress in the 4.x releases

thanks&cheers,
gezza

---

From: Roberto Javier López Sastre <rober.lopez@...>
To: Tikiwiki developers <tikiwiki-devel@...>
Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 6:10:00 PM

Subject: Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Are workspaces ready for tiki 4.0?

It's OK Xavi (and all) ;-)
So far we have been working to get a stable wslib, which now uses the
new and great perspectives.This is working I think.
More work has to be done with GUI for managing and admin ws, I agree.
Aldo has sketched his ideas but it's difficult to define the GUI of
such an important feature.

On the other hand Aldo is going to fix some of the things Marc pointed
in his email.

It's not important for us whether we branch again or not, although I
think the same as Jonny (+1 for ws in tiki 4 as a experimental
feature).

I would say Aldo & Ben can prepare a GUI if you help with the design.
The wslib is there, and it's working. We could do this this week.

Thanks ;-)

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Xavier de Pedro <xavier.depedro@...> wrote:
> Sorry to hear that, Roberto.
>
> And specially sorry because the start of this academic semester I had to
> teach a new course, and I haven't got much time to dedicate to tiki (at
> least to test and provide feedback on your work - Ben, Aldo & you).
>
> I still wish some basic interface to create and edit worksapces was able
> to get in tiki 4.x (if not 4.0, then later). But I know that we seem to
> be limited in human resources (mainly developers, I guess) to work with
> your team.
>
> Alternatively, some "clear and easy" way (for end users) to manage
> workspaces through data channels (or by any means) would be desirable
> for tiki 4.x (I understand is not done either..., afaik)
>
> So, I dunno what can be said about "workspaces" for end-users in Tiki4,
> if we don't have any of those two options...
>
> What do others think?
>
> Xavi
>
> En/na Jonny Bradley ha escrit:
>> Hi Roberto and all
>>
>> Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on
>> too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC
>> project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to
>> essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!
>>
>> To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to
>> be done it needs to happen this week (according to http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)
>>   and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and
>> review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it
>> goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their
>> studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day
>> again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you
>> around? You are King of Workspaces!)
>>
>> So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very
>> experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto
>> LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that
>> the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,
>> even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS
>> management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin
>> page at the very least.
>>
>> If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve
>> such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?
>>
>> We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking
>> anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone
>> else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can
>> improve it after 4.0.
>>
>> My two 'spaces,
>>
>> jonny
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier López Sastre wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only ones
>>> giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk. Thanks
>>> again.
>>>
>>> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but I
>>> would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
>>> the whole community.
>>> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are touching
>>> the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help from
>>> experienced users/developers.
>>>
>>> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
>>> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
>>> intensity in tiki this course.
>>>
>>> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I
>>> would say.
>>>
>>> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
>>> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
>>>
>>> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
>>> improve there, and go back to trunk.
>>>
>>> What do you think? ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>>>>
>>>> For everyone:
>>>>
>>>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
>>>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid
>>>> (Feb 2009)
>>>> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
>>>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
>>>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
>>>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives, etc.).
>>>> It is also about massively improving the user interface.
>>>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate
>>>> enough
>>>> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
>>>> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
>>>> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
>>>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>>>>
>>>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there are
>>>> profiles to test each feature individually.
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
>>>> categories, etc):
>>>>
>>>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories
>>>> permissions, etc.
>>>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
>>>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
>>>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
>>>>
>>>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
>>>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it
>>>> in
>>>> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but the
>>>> idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are
>>>> some comment.
>>>>
>>>> 0- On fresh install, I get
>>>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
>>>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
>>>> (42,'o','Leave this
>>>> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
>>>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
>>>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
>>>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
>>>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
>>>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>>>>
>>>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
>>>> preference feature workspaces enabled
>>>>
>>>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>>>>
>>>> a) I see NULL at the top
>>>>
>>>> b) general settings is empty
>>>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>>>>
>>>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
>>>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>>>>
>>>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
>>>> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis
>>>> for workspaces.
>>>>
>>>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
>>>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
>>>> Please choose another name."
>>>>
>>>> c) View: nothing happens
>>>> The page just refreshes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> d) Delete: works
>>>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
>>>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
>>>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
>>>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without warning.
>>>> That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
>>>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
>>>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>>>>
>>>> How do I get this to work?

>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite
>>>> tricky
>>>> to modifiy because people start using.
>>>>
>>>> tiki_p_ws_admin
>>>> tiki_p_ws_addws
>>>> tiki_p_ws_removews
>>>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
>>>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources

>>>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
>>>> tiki_p_ws_view
>>>>
>>>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
>>>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are category permissions:
>>>> tiki_p_remove_object
>>>> tiki_p_create_category
>>>> tiki_p_admin_categories
>>>> tiki_p_add_object
>>>> tiki_p_view_category
>>>>
>>>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
>>>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
>>>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
>>>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
>>>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
>>>> corruption or be removed.)
>>>>
>>>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
>>>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
>>>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
>>>>
>>>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature freeze.
>>>> Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to get
>>>> everything to work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My proposal:
>>>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an
>>>> experimental branch
>>>> 2- Remove from branch4
>>>> 3- Continue work in branch
>>>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
>>>> profiles and data channels
>>>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
>>>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
>>>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
>>>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
>>>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion in
>>>> 4.1
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> M ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in
>>>>> wslib to
>>>>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the
>>>>> work is done.
>>>>> The things we have been working are:
>>>>>
>>>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in
>>>>> some
>>>>> functions.
>>>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this
>>>>> ws will
>>>>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
>>>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in
>>>>> fact, we
>>>>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main
>>>>> reason why
>>>>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>>>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with
>>>>> categlib or
>>>>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged
>>>>> it with
>>>>> cache (when needed).
>>>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function
>>>>> used in
>>>>> wslib.
>>>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that
>>>>> allows the
>>>>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the
>>>>> perspective
>>>>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces
>>>>> and delete
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Things to be done:
>>>>>
>>>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage ws
>>>>> properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
>>>>> admincategories.
>>>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single
>>>>> ws ... And
>>>>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage
>>>>> Workspaces we
>>>>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We
>>>>> need your
>>>>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
>>>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working
>>>>> properly, but
>>>>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
>>>>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of
>>>>> functions in wslib
>>>>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>>>>>
>>>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With
>>>>> this
>>>>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in
>>>>> Tiki. That
>>>>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of
>>>>> the users.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0
>>>>> (even
>>>>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Aldo
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Aldo Borrero González
>>>>> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
>>>>> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in
>>>>> SF, CA
>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>>>>> Jumpstart your
>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>>> and stay

>>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>>>> now!

>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marc Laporte
>>>>
>>>> http://MarcLaporte.com
>>>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
>>>> http://AvanTech.net
>>>> http://OurWiki.net
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF,
>>>> CA
>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>>> your
>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>> and stay

>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>>> now!

>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rober
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>> your
>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>> stay

>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>> now!

>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay

>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!

>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>



--
Rober

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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_______________________________________________
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
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_______________________________________________
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--
Aldo Borrero González
Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
Universidad de Alcalá de Henares

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
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[Aldo-2]

I have to say that even if you enable workspaces, you are not going to break nothing in Tiki (or should not).

Alma is using Tiki with Workspaces enabled, and is working very well. The problem is, you have to do the things by hacks in the gui, because WS don't have a proper gui to deal with it.

I think, if we can create a basic gui management for workspaces, (edit, add resources, groups, and more things) the rest is a job of the ws handler (and in fact ws handler is the union of the others handlers).

Aldo

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:

Hi guys!

First of all thank you Marc. Thank you Jonny. Thank you Xavi. Thank you Geoff. Thank you Gezza. Thank you, because if you are responding this message is because you are interested in Workspaces.

I subscribe some things Roberto said before, if you think carefully, we are only two guys (and Rober in background helping us when he can) programming one of the most important feature that Tiki will have in the next releases. Most of the time we spent it trying to create things with logic, consensus, and of course watching how things was done before. But, after all, our experience with Tiki currently is only one year.

What am I trying to say with this? Well, we make mistakes. The problem is not about coding (for me PHP is very easy), is about how things should be done efficiently, or because Workspaces have a lot of uses cases.

We created wslib because we thought it was a logic phase in Workspaces. Latter LP give us Perspectives and perms-take 2. Which in union with wslib we can create "workspaces". And that is very cool.

But try to think as if you were me or Benji. In my case in summer I was programming like 8 hours every day, trying to get a wslib, to create ws handler, to try to figure out how interface should be, to think how the implementation should be done, to fix problems in Alma, to study for passing my career exams, to debug erros here and there ...

In my case every day I was solving too much things, and all radically different. So this is the main problem when you try to erase a workspace, you don't get a warning message. Or why you can only create one group, without the possibility to add more inside the workspace, or why when you go to the admin panel you only get a blank options page, and when you go to the script creator tab and you try to do something, it doesn't work. Or why the WS Handler is not finished, and has a lot of errors, or 20.000 things I should take care as a developer ...

Simply, I don't have enough time to solve all things. For Ben, the same.

As Roberto said before, Workspaces is a job that should be done with the help of the community. With all of you. You know that this is a big job, because Workspaces involves touching different pillards of Tiki. Gracefully, with perspectives this work is more easy. And of course, Workspaces needs Social Networking, and viceversa. With this we can create what Xavi de Pedro and Javier Reyes did (or thought) some years ago with Aulawiki.

In my opinion I'm going to fix all errors you report in your inform, Marc. I don't care if all of you prefer to revert back what we did to a experimental branch, but honestly, if you do this, Workspaces until 5 or even 6, are not going to be finished. Seriously, Workspaces needs to be in trunk, with this, the people can test this and know what are our plans respect to the futures versions of Tiki (we want to become more open, more social). Maybe some people see what we did, and say, hey, why not to help in this task?

Technically with WS Handler (fixing errors or coding some things again), and with some touches in GUI design, some test to wslib (and more cleaning to its functions) we can have Workspaces version 1 working very happily and ready for 4.1 or 4.2

But for achieving this, I say again, we need your help. In the next days I'm going to create a wikipage in dev saying what should be done to make this possible.

Thank you, and sorry for this long email.

Aldo

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 6:29 PM, gezza nagy <gezzzan@...> wrote:

I would also like to help in the design of the GUI, did you publish your plans somewhere? Is there a starting point for ideas?

I think if the functionality behind is more or less ok, lets put it to experimental, lets get used to having workspaces in Tiki :) we can continue to make the frontend fancier and publish the progress in the 4.x releases

thanks&cheers,
gezza

---

From: Roberto Javier López Sastre <rober.lopez@...>
To: Tikiwiki developers <tikiwiki-devel@...>
Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 6:10:00 PM

Subject: Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Are workspaces ready for tiki 4.0?

It's OK Xavi (and all) ;-)
So far we have been working to get a stable wslib, which now uses the
new and great perspectives.This is working I think.
More work has to be done with GUI for managing and admin ws, I agree.
Aldo has sketched his ideas but it's difficult to define the GUI of
such an important feature.

On the other hand Aldo is going to fix some of the things Marc pointed
in his email.

It's not important for us whether we branch again or not, although I
think the same as Jonny (+1 for ws in tiki 4 as a experimental
feature).

I would say Aldo & Ben can prepare a GUI if you help with the design.
The wslib is there, and it's working. We could do this this week.

Thanks ;-)

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Xavier de Pedro <xavier.depedro@...> wrote:
> Sorry to hear that, Roberto.
>
> And specially sorry because the start of this academic semester I had to
> teach a new course, and I haven't got much time to dedicate to tiki (at
> least to test and provide feedback on your work - Ben, Aldo & you).
>
> I still wish some basic interface to create and edit worksapces was able
> to get in tiki 4.x (if not 4.0, then later). But I know that we seem to
> be limited in human resources (mainly developers, I guess) to work with
> your team.
>
> Alternatively, some "clear and easy" way (for end users) to manage
> workspaces through data channels (or by any means) would be desirable
> for tiki 4.x (I understand is not done either..., afaik)
>
> So, I dunno what can be said about "workspaces" for end-users in Tiki4,
> if we don't have any of those two options...
>
> What do others think?
>
> Xavi
>
> En/na Jonny Bradley ha escrit:
>> Hi Roberto and all
>>
>> Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on
>> too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC
>> project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to
>> essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!
>>
>> To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to
>> be done it needs to happen this week (according to http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)
>>   and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and
>> review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it
>> goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their
>> studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day
>> again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you
>> around? You are King of Workspaces!)
>>
>> So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very
>> experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto
>> LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that
>> the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,
>> even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS
>> management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin
>> page at the very least.
>>
>> If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve
>> such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?
>>
>> We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking
>> anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone
>> else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can
>> improve it after 4.0.
>>
>> My two 'spaces,
>>
>> jonny
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier López Sastre wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only ones
>>> giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk. Thanks
>>> again.
>>>
>>> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but I
>>> would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
>>> the whole community.
>>> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are touching
>>> the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help from
>>> experienced users/developers.
>>>
>>> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
>>> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
>>> intensity in tiki this course.
>>>
>>> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I
>>> would say.
>>>
>>> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
>>> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
>>>
>>> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
>>> improve there, and go back to trunk.
>>>
>>> What do you think? ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>>>>
>>>> For everyone:
>>>>
>>>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
>>>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid
>>>> (Feb 2009)
>>>> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
>>>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
>>>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
>>>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives, etc.).
>>>> It is also about massively improving the user interface.
>>>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate
>>>> enough
>>>> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
>>>> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
>>>> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
>>>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>>>>
>>>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there are
>>>> profiles to test each feature individually.
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
>>>> categories, etc):
>>>>
>>>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories
>>>> permissions, etc.
>>>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
>>>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
>>>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
>>>>
>>>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
>>>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it
>>>> in
>>>> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but the
>>>> idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are
>>>> some comment.
>>>>
>>>> 0- On fresh install, I get
>>>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
>>>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
>>>> (42,'o','Leave this
>>>> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
>>>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
>>>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
>>>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
>>>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
>>>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>>>>
>>>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
>>>> preference feature workspaces enabled
>>>>
>>>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>>>>
>>>> a) I see NULL at the top
>>>>
>>>> b) general settings is empty
>>>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>>>>
>>>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
>>>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>>>>
>>>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
>>>> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis
>>>> for workspaces.
>>>>
>>>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
>>>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
>>>> Please choose another name."
>>>>
>>>> c) View: nothing happens
>>>> The page just refreshes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> d) Delete: works
>>>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
>>>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
>>>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
>>>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without warning.
>>>> That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
>>>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
>>>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>>>>
>>>> How do I get this to work?

>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite
>>>> tricky
>>>> to modifiy because people start using.
>>>>
>>>> tiki_p_ws_admin
>>>> tiki_p_ws_addws
>>>> tiki_p_ws_removews
>>>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
>>>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources

>>>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
>>>> tiki_p_ws_view
>>>>
>>>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
>>>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are category permissions:
>>>> tiki_p_remove_object
>>>> tiki_p_create_category
>>>> tiki_p_admin_categories
>>>> tiki_p_add_object
>>>> tiki_p_view_category
>>>>
>>>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
>>>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
>>>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
>>>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
>>>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
>>>> corruption or be removed.)
>>>>
>>>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
>>>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
>>>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
>>>>
>>>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature freeze.
>>>> Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to get
>>>> everything to work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My proposal:
>>>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an
>>>> experimental branch
>>>> 2- Remove from branch4
>>>> 3- Continue work in branch
>>>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
>>>> profiles and data channels
>>>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
>>>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
>>>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
>>>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
>>>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion in
>>>> 4.1
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> M ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in
>>>>> wslib to
>>>>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the
>>>>> work is done.
>>>>> The things we have been working are:
>>>>>
>>>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in
>>>>> some
>>>>> functions.
>>>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this
>>>>> ws will
>>>>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
>>>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in
>>>>> fact, we
>>>>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main
>>>>> reason why
>>>>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>>>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with
>>>>> categlib or
>>>>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged
>>>>> it with
>>>>> cache (when needed).
>>>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function
>>>>> used in
>>>>> wslib.
>>>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that
>>>>> allows the
>>>>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the
>>>>> perspective
>>>>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces
>>>>> and delete
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Things to be done:
>>>>>
>>>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage ws
>>>>> properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
>>>>> admincategories.
>>>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single
>>>>> ws ... And
>>>>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage
>>>>> Workspaces we
>>>>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We
>>>>> need your
>>>>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
>>>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working
>>>>> properly, but
>>>>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
>>>>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of
>>>>> functions in wslib
>>>>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>>>>>
>>>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With
>>>>> this
>>>>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in
>>>>> Tiki. That
>>>>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of
>>>>> the users.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0
>>>>> (even
>>>>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Aldo
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Aldo Borrero González
>>>>> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
>>>>> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in
>>>>> SF, CA
>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>>>>> Jumpstart your
>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>>> and stay

>>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>>>> now!

>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marc Laporte
>>>>
>>>> http://MarcLaporte.com
>>>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
>>>> http://AvanTech.net
>>>> http://OurWiki.net
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF,
>>>> CA
>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>>> your
>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>> and stay

>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>>> now!

>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rober
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>> your
>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>> stay

>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>> now!

>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay

>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!

>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>



--
Rober

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--
Aldo Borrero González
Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
Universidad de Alcalá de Henares

--
Aldo Borrero González
Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
Universidad de Alcalá de Henares

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[Roberto Javier López Sastre]

> But for achieving this, I say again, we need your help. In the next days I'm
> going to create a wikipage in dev saying what should be done to make this
> possible.

Aldo, could you add there a sketch of the admin GUI? You mentioned in
our last meeting this week you had a very basic design.
If we want WS in tiki 4 we need this GUI. Let the people know what you
have been thinking about ;-)

Good job!

--
Rober

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[gezza nagy]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Hi Aldo!

Thanks for all of you for all your work here, workspaces are indeed important. Maybe earlier I did not express myself good, I also think that workspaces should be where the next core is being shaped and be shipped with the new release but marked as a "Need polish" feature on the "Experimental tab" among Features.
About helping: some non-coder folks like me can kick in only when we see the gui as I dont really understand code language. For some input on existing GUI  solutions & ideas see here (check point 8 and 9): http://tikiwiki.org/Tikifest+Workspaces+and+Social+Networking&bl=y
Thanks again&looking forward to see the gui plans!
cheers,
gezza

---

From: Aldo <axold07@...>
To: Tikiwiki developers <tikiwiki-devel@...>
Sent: Thu, October 8, 2009 1:53:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Are workspaces ready for tiki 4.0?

I have to say that even if you enable workspaces, you are not going to break nothing in Tiki (or should not).

Alma is using Tiki with Workspaces enabled, and is working very well. The problem is, you have to do the things by hacks in the gui, because WS don't have a proper gui to deal with it.

I think, if we can create a basic gui management for workspaces, (edit, add resources, groups, and more things) the rest is a job of the ws handler (and in fact ws handler is the union of the others handlers).

Aldo

On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:

Hi guys!

First of all thank you Marc. Thank you Jonny. Thank you Xavi. Thank you Geoff. Thank you Gezza. Thank you, because if you are responding this message is because you are interested in Workspaces.

I subscribe some things Roberto said before, if you think carefully, we are only two guys (and Rober in background helping us when he can) programming one of the most important feature that Tiki will have in the next releases. Most of the time we spent it trying to create things with logic, consensus, and of course watching how things was done before. But, after all, our experience with Tiki currently is only one year.

What am I trying to say with this? Well, we make mistakes. The problem is not about coding (for me PHP is very easy), is about how things should be done efficiently, or because Workspaces have a lot of uses cases.

We created wslib because we thought it was a logic phase in Workspaces. Latter LP give us Perspectives and perms-take 2. Which in union with wslib we can create "workspaces". And that is very cool.

But try to think as if you were me or Benji. In my case in summer I was programming like 8 hours every day, trying to get a wslib, to create ws handler, to try to figure out how interface should be, to think how the implementation should be done, to fix problems in Alma, to study for passing my career exams, to debug erros here and there ...

In my case every day I was solving too much things, and all radically different. So this is the main problem when you try to erase a workspace, you don't get a warning message. Or why you can only create one group, without the possibility to add more inside the workspace, or why when you go to the admin panel you only get a blank options page, and when you go to the script creator tab and you try to do something, it doesn't work. Or why the WS Handler is not finished, and has a lot of errors, or 20.000 things I should take care as a developer ...

Simply, I don't have enough time to solve all things. For Ben, the same.

As Roberto said before, Workspaces is a job that should be done with the help of the community. With all of you. You know that this is a big job, because Workspaces involves touching different pillards of Tiki. Gracefully, with perspectives this work is more easy. And of course, Workspaces needs Social Networking, and viceversa. With this we can create what Xavi de Pedro and Javier Reyes did (or thought) some years ago with Aulawiki.

In my opinion I'm going to fix all errors you report in your inform, Marc. I don't care if all of you prefer to revert back what we did to a experimental branch, but honestly, if you do this, Workspaces until 5 or even 6, are not going to be finished. Seriously, Workspaces needs to be in trunk, with this, the people can test this and know what are our plans respect to the futures versions of Tiki (we want to become more open, more social). Maybe some people see what we did, and say, hey, why not to help in this task?

Technically with WS Handler (fixing errors or coding some things again), and with some touches in GUI design, some test to wslib (and more cleaning to its functions) we can have Workspaces version 1 working very happily and ready for 4.1 or 4.2

But for achieving this, I say again, we need your help. In the next days I'm going to create a wikipage in dev saying what should be done to make this possible.

Thank you, and sorry for this long email.

Aldo

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 6:29 PM, gezza nagy <gezzzan@...> wrote:

I would also like to help in the design of the GUI, did you publish your plans somewhere? Is there a starting point for ideas?

I think if the functionality behind is more or less ok, lets put it to experimental, lets get used to having workspaces in Tiki :) we can continue to make the frontend fancier and publish the progress in the 4.x releases

thanks&cheers,
gezza

---

From: Roberto Javier López Sastre <rober.lopez@...>
To: Tikiwiki developers <tikiwiki-devel@...>
Sent: Wed, October 7, 2009 6:10:00 PM

Subject: Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Are workspaces ready for tiki 4.0?

It's OK Xavi (and all) ;-)
So far we have been working to get a stable wslib, which now uses the
new and great perspectives.This is working I think.
More work has to be done with GUI for managing and admin ws, I agree.
Aldo has sketched his ideas but it's difficult to define the GUI of
such an important feature.

On the other hand Aldo is going to fix some of the things Marc pointed
in his email.

It's not important for us whether we branch again or not, although I
think the same as Jonny (+1 for ws in tiki 4 as a experimental
feature).

I would say Aldo & Ben can prepare a GUI if you help with the design.
The wslib is there, and it's working. We could do this this week.

Thanks ;-)

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Xavier de Pedro <xavier.depedro@...> wrote:
> Sorry to hear that, Roberto.
>
> And specially sorry because the start of this academic semester I had to
> teach a new course, and I haven't got much time to dedicate to tiki (at
> least to test and provide feedback on your work - Ben, Aldo & you).
>
> I still wish some basic interface to create and edit worksapces was able
> to get in tiki 4.x (if not 4.0, then later). But I know that we seem to
> be limited in human resources (mainly developers, I guess) to work with
> your team.
>
> Alternatively, some "clear and easy" way (for end users) to manage
> workspaces through data channels (or by any means) would be desirable
> for tiki 4.x (I understand is not done either..., afaik)
>
> So, I dunno what can be said about "workspaces" for end-users in Tiki4,
> if we don't have any of those two options...
>
> What do others think?
>
> Xavi
>
> En/na Jonny Bradley ha escrit:
>> Hi Roberto and all
>>
>> Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on
>> too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC
>> project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to
>> essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!
>>
>> To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to
>> be done it needs to happen this week (according to http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)
>>   and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and
>> review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it
>> goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their
>> studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day
>> again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you
>> around? You are King of Workspaces!)
>>
>> So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very
>> experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto
>> LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that
>> the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,
>> even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS
>> management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin
>> page at the very least.
>>
>> If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve
>> such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?
>>
>> We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking
>> anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone
>> else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can
>> improve it after 4.0.
>>
>> My two 'spaces,
>>
>> jonny
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier López Sastre wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only ones
>>> giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk. Thanks
>>> again.
>>>
>>> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but I
>>> would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
>>> the whole community.
>>> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are touching
>>> the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help from
>>> experienced users/developers.
>>>
>>> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
>>> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
>>> intensity in tiki this course.
>>>
>>> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I
>>> would say.
>>>
>>> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
>>> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
>>>
>>> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
>>> improve there, and go back to trunk.
>>>
>>> What do you think? ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>>>>
>>>> For everyone:
>>>>
>>>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
>>>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid
>>>> (Feb 2009)
>>>> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
>>>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
>>>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
>>>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives, etc.).
>>>> It is also about massively improving the user interface.
>>>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate
>>>> enough
>>>> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
>>>> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
>>>> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
>>>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>>>>
>>>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there are
>>>> profiles to test each feature individually.
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
>>>> categories, etc):
>>>>
>>>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories
>>>> permissions, etc.
>>>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
>>>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
>>>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
>>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
>>>>
>>>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
>>>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it
>>>> in
>>>> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but the
>>>> idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are
>>>> some comment.
>>>>
>>>> 0- On fresh install, I get
>>>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
>>>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
>>>> (42,'o','Leave this
>>>> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
>>>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
>>>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
>>>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
>>>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
>>>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>>>>
>>>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
>>>> preference feature workspaces enabled
>>>>
>>>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>>>>
>>>> a) I see NULL at the top
>>>>
>>>> b) general settings is empty
>>>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>>>>
>>>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
>>>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>>>>
>>>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
>>>> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis
>>>> for workspaces.
>>>>
>>>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
>>>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
>>>> Please choose another name."
>>>>
>>>> c) View: nothing happens
>>>> The page just refreshes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> d) Delete: works
>>>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
>>>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
>>>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
>>>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without warning.
>>>> That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
>>>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
>>>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>>>>
>>>> How do I get this to work?

>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite
>>>> tricky
>>>> to modifiy because people start using.
>>>>
>>>> tiki_p_ws_admin
>>>> tiki_p_ws_addws
>>>> tiki_p_ws_removews
>>>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
>>>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources

>>>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
>>>> tiki_p_ws_view
>>>>
>>>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
>>>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are category permissions:
>>>> tiki_p_remove_object
>>>> tiki_p_create_category
>>>> tiki_p_admin_categories
>>>> tiki_p_add_object
>>>> tiki_p_view_category
>>>>
>>>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
>>>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
>>>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
>>>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
>>>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
>>>> corruption or be removed.)
>>>>
>>>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
>>>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
>>>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
>>>>
>>>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature freeze.
>>>> Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to get
>>>> everything to work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My proposal:
>>>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an
>>>> experimental branch
>>>> 2- Remove from branch4
>>>> 3- Continue work in branch
>>>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
>>>> profiles and data channels
>>>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
>>>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
>>>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
>>>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
>>>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion in
>>>> 4.1
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> M ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks!
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in
>>>>> wslib to
>>>>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the
>>>>> work is done.
>>>>> The things we have been working are:
>>>>>
>>>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in
>>>>> some
>>>>> functions.
>>>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this
>>>>> ws will
>>>>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
>>>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in
>>>>> fact, we
>>>>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main
>>>>> reason why
>>>>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>>>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with
>>>>> categlib or
>>>>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged
>>>>> it with
>>>>> cache (when needed).
>>>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function
>>>>> used in
>>>>> wslib.
>>>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that
>>>>> allows the
>>>>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the
>>>>> perspective
>>>>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces
>>>>> and delete
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Things to be done:
>>>>>
>>>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage ws
>>>>> properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
>>>>> admincategories.
>>>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single
>>>>> ws ... And
>>>>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage
>>>>> Workspaces we
>>>>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We
>>>>> need your
>>>>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
>>>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working
>>>>> properly, but
>>>>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
>>>>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of
>>>>> functions in wslib
>>>>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>>>>>
>>>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With
>>>>> this
>>>>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in
>>>>> Tiki. That
>>>>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of
>>>>> the users.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0
>>>>> (even
>>>>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Aldo
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Aldo Borrero González
>>>>> Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
>>>>> Universidad de Alcalá de Henares
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in
>>>>> SF, CA
>>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>>>>> Jumpstart your
>>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>>> and stay

>>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>>>> now!

>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marc Laporte
>>>>
>>>> http://MarcLaporte.com
>>>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
>>>> http://AvanTech.net
>>>> http://OurWiki.net
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF,
>>>> CA
>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>>> your
>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>>> and stay

>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>>> now!

>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rober
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry&reg; Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>> your
>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>> stay

>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>> now!

>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay

>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!

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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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--
Rober

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--
Aldo Borrero González
Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
Universidad de Alcalá de Henares

--
Aldo Borrero González
Estudiante de Ingeniería Técnica en Informática de Sistemas
Universidad de Alcalá de Henares

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Giancarlo Pinerolo]

> You know that this is a big job,
> because Workspaces involves touching different pillards of Tiki.

The motto 'Eat your own dogfood' should be changed into
'Eat your own dogfood, first'

Workspaces were working since tiki version 1.8, have been improved and still
work under version 3.1 afaik. Without touching any pillar.

My impression is that you have tried to avoid eating that dogfood in the first
place, and went on straight at eating the dog itself :-(

my two cents...

Giancarlo pingus

> Gracefully, with perspectives this work is more easy. And of course,
> Workspaces needs Social Networking, and viceversa. With this we can create
> what Xavi de Pedro and Javier Reyes did (or thought) some years ago with
> Aulawiki.
>
> In my opinion I'm going to fix all errors you report in your inform, Marc.
> I don't care if all of you prefer to revert back what we did to a
> experimental branch, but honestly, if you do this, Workspaces until 5 or
> even 6, are not going to be finished. Seriously, Workspaces needs to be in
> trunk, with this, the people can test this and know what are our plans
> respect to the futures versions of Tiki (we want to become more open, more
> social). Maybe some people see what we did, and say, hey, why not to help
> in this task?
>
> Technically with WS Handler (fixing errors or coding some things again),
> and with some touches in GUI design, some test to wslib (and more cleaning
> to its functions) we can have Workspaces version 1 working very happily and
> ready for 4.1 or 4.2
>
> But for achieving this, I say again, we need your help. In the next days
> I'm going to create a wikipage in dev saying what should be done to make
> this possible.
>
> Thank you, and sorry for this long email.
>
> Aldo
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 6:29 PM, gezza nagy <gezzzan@...> wrote:
> > I would also like to help in the design of the GUI, did you publish your
> > plans somewhere? Is there a starting point for ideas?
> >
> > I think if the functionality behind is more or less ok, lets put it to
> > experimental, lets get used to having workspaces in Tiki :) we can
> > continue to make the frontend fancier and publish the progress in the 4.x
> > releases
> >
> > thanks&cheers,
> > gezza
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Roberto Javier L?pez Sastre <rober.lopez@...>
> > *To:* Tikiwiki developers <tikiwiki-devel@...>
> > *Sent:* Wed, October 7, 2009 6:10:00 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Are workspaces ready for tiki 4.0?
> >
> > It's OK Xavi (and all) ;-)
> > So far we have been working to get a stable wslib, which now uses the
> > new and great perspectives.This is working I think.
> > More work has to be done with GUI for managing and admin ws, I agree.
> > Aldo has sketched his ideas but it's difficult to define the GUI of
> > such an important feature.
> >
> > On the other hand Aldo is going to fix some of the things Marc pointed
> > in his email.
> >
> > It's not important for us whether we branch again or not, although I
> > think the same as Jonny (+1 for ws in tiki 4 as a experimental
> > feature).
> >
> > I would say Aldo & Ben can prepare a GUI if you help with the design.
> > The wslib is there, and it's working. We could do this this week.
> >
> > Thanks ;-)
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Xavier de Pedro <xavier.depedro@...>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Sorry to hear that, Roberto.
> > >
> > > And specially sorry because the start of this academic semester I had
> > > to teach a new course, and I haven't got much time to dedicate to tiki
> > > (at least to test and provide feedback on your work - Ben, Aldo & you).
> > >
> > > I still wish some basic interface to create and edit worksapces was
> > > able to get in tiki 4.x (if not 4.0, then later). But I know that we
> > > seem to be limited in human resources (mainly developers, I guess) to
> > > work with your team.
> > >
> > > Alternatively, some "clear and easy" way (for end users) to manage
> > > workspaces through data channels (or by any means) would be desirable
> > > for tiki 4.x (I understand is not done either..., afaik)
> > >
> > > So, I dunno what can be said about "workspaces" for end-users in Tiki4,
> > > if we don't have any of those two options...
> > >
> > > What do others think?
> > >
> > > Xavi
> > >
> > > En/na Jonny Bradley ha escrit:
> > >> Hi Roberto and all
> > >>
> > >> Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on
> > >> too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC
> > >> project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to
> > >> essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!
> > >>
> > >> To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to
> > >> be done it needs to happen this week (according to
> >
> > http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)
> >
> > >>   and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and
> > >> review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it
> > >> goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their
> > >> studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day
> > >> again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you
> > >> around? You are King of Workspaces!)
> > >>
> > >> So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very
> > >> experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto
> > >> LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that
> > >> the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,
> > >> even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS
> > >> management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin
> > >> page at the very least.
> > >>
> > >> If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve
> > >> such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?
> > >>
> > >> We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking
> > >> anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone
> > >> else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can
> > >> improve it after 4.0.
> > >>
> > >> My two 'spaces,
> > >>
> > >> jonny
> > >>
> > >> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier L?pez Sastre wrote:
> > >>> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only
> > >>> ones giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk.
> > >>> Thanks again.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but
> > >>> I would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
> > >>> the whole community.
> > >>> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are
> > >>> touching the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help
> > >>> from experienced users/developers.
> > >>>
> > >>> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
> > >>> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
> > >>> intensity in tiki this course.
> > >>>
> > >>> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I
> > >>> would say.
> > >>>
> > >>> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
> > >>> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
> > >>>
> > >>> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
> > >>> improve there, and go back to trunk.
> > >>>
> > >>> What do you think? ;-)
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>
> > >>>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For everyone:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
> > >>>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid
> > >>>> (Feb 2009)
> > >>>> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
> > >>>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
> > >>>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
> > >>>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives,
> > >>>> etc.). It is also about massively improving the user interface.
> > >>>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate
> > >>>> enough
> > >>>> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
> > >>>> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
> > >>>> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
> > >>>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there
> > >>>> are profiles to test each feature individually.
> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
> > >>>> categories, etc):
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories
> > >>>> permissions, etc.
> > >>>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
> > >>>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
> > >>>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
> > >>>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it
> > >>>> in
> > >>>> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but
> > >>>> the idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are
> > >>>> some comment.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 0- On fresh install, I get
> > >>>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
> > >>>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
> > >>>> (42,'o','Leave this
> > >>>> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
> > >>>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
> > >>>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
> > >>>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
> > >>>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
> > >>>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
> > >>>> preference feature workspaces enabled
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
> > >>>>
> > >>>> a) I see NULL at the top
> > >>>>
> > >>>> b) general settings is empty
> > >>>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
> > >>>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
> > >>>>
> > >>>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
> > >>>> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis
> > >>>> for workspaces.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
> > >>>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
> > >>>> Please choose another name."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> c) View: nothing happens
> > >>>> The page just refreshes
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> d) Delete: works
> > >>>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
> > >>>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
> > >>>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
> > >>>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without
> > >>>> warning. That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
> > >>>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
> > >>>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> How do I get this to work?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite
> > >>>> tricky
> > >>>> to modifiy because people start using.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_admin
> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_addws
> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_removews
> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources
> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_view
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There are category permissions:
> > >>>> tiki_p_remove_object
> > >>>> tiki_p_create_category
> > >>>> tiki_p_admin_categories
> > >>>> tiki_p_add_object
> > >>>> tiki_p_view_category
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
> > >>>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
> > >>>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
> > >>>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
> > >>>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
> > >>>> corruption or be removed.)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
> > >>>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
> > >>>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature
> > >>>> freeze. Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to
> > >>>> get everything to work.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> My proposal:
> > >>>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an
> > >>>> experimental branch
> > >>>> 2- Remove from branch4
> > >>>> 3- Continue work in branch
> > >>>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
> > >>>> profiles and data channels
> > >>>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
> > >>>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
> > >>>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
> > >>>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
> > >>>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion
> > >>>> in 4.1
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What do you think?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best regards,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> M ;-)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
> > >>>>> Hi folks!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in
> > >>>>> wslib to
> > >>>>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the
> > >>>>> work is done.
> > >>>>> The things we have been working are:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in
> > >>>>> some
> > >>>>> functions.
> > >>>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this
> > >>>>> ws will
> > >>>>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
> > >>>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in
> > >>>>> fact, we
> > >>>>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main
> > >>>>> reason why
> > >>>>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
> > >>>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with
> > >>>>> categlib or
> > >>>>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged
> > >>>>> it with
> > >>>>> cache (when needed).
> > >>>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function
> > >>>>> used in
> > >>>>> wslib.
> > >>>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that
> > >>>>> allows the
> > >>>>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the
> > >>>>> perspective
> > >>>>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces
> > >>>>> and delete
> > >>>>> them.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Things to be done:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage
> > >>>>> ws properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
> > >>>>> admincategories.
> > >>>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single
> > >>>>> ws ... And
> > >>>>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage
> > >>>>> Workspaces we
> > >>>>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We
> > >>>>> need your
> > >>>>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
> > >>>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working
> > >>>>> properly, but
> > >>>>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
> > >>>>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of
> > >>>>> functions in wslib
> > >>>>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With
> > >>>>> this
> > >>>>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in
> > >>>>> Tiki. That
> > >>>>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of
> > >>>>> the users.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0
> > >>>>> (even
> > >>>>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Cheers, Aldo
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Aldo Borrero Gonz?lez
> > >>>>> Estudiante de Ingenier?a T?cnica en Inform?tica de Sistemas
> > >>>>> Universidad de Alcal? de Henares
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-----
> >
> > >>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in
> > >>>>> SF, CA
> > >>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
> > >>>>> Jumpstart your
> > >>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
> > >>>>> and stay
> > >>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
> > >>>>> now!
> > >>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> > >>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> > >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Marc Laporte
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://MarcLaporte.com
> > >>>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
> > >>>> http://AvanTech.net
> > >>>> http://OurWiki.net
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-----
> >
> > >>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF,
> > >>>> CA
> > >>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
> > >>>> your
> > >>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
> > >>>> and stay
> > >>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
> > >>>> now!
> > >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> > >>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> > >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Rober
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-----
> >
> > >>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF,
> > >>> CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
> > >>> Jumpstart your
> > >>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
> > >>> stay
> > >>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
> > >>> now!
> > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> > >>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-----
> >
> > >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
> > >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
> > >> your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
> > >> and
> >
> > stay
> >
> > >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
> > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> > >> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >-----
> >
> > > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> > > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
> > > your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
> > > and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009.
> > > Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> > > Tikiwiki-devel@...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
> >
> > --
> > Rober
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >----- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> > Tikiwiki-devel@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >----- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
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> > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> > Tikiwiki-devel@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

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[Aldo-2]

Thank you pingus, but take a look first before say nothing ;)

On Oct 8, 2009 11:42 PM, "Giancarlo Pinerolo" <giancapin@...> wrote:

> You know that this is a big job, > because Workspaces involves touching different pillards of Tiki...

The motto 'Eat your own dogfood' should be changed into
'Eat your own dogfood, first'

Workspaces were working since tiki version 1.8, have been improved and still
work under version 3.1 afaik. Without touching any pillar.

My impression is that you have tried to avoid eating that dogfood in the first
place, and went on straight at eating the dog itself :-(

my two cents...

Giancarlo pingus

> Gracefully, with perspectives this work is more easy. And of course, > Workspaces needs Social Ne...

> > *From:* Roberto Javier L?pez Sastre <rober.lopez@...>

> > *To:* Tikiwiki developers <tikiwiki-devel@...> > > *Sent:* Wed, October 7, 200...

> > >> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier L?pez Sastre wrote: > > >>> Marc, thanks for your rev...

> > >>>>> Aldo Borrero Gonz?lez
> > >>>>> Estudiante de Ingenier?a T?cnica en Inform?tica de Sistemas
> > >>>>> Universidad de Alcal? de Henares

> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >----- > > > > >...

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[Marc Laporte-3]

Hi Geoff,

Please re-read my post from October 6th and if that doesn't answer
your question (or things are unclear), please ask more questions on
what I wrote.

Best regards,

M ;-)


On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 12:05 PM, geoff@enmore <geoff@...> wrote:
> Hi - I've just been catching up with this thread - and I have to say it
> would be very, very disappointing if Workspaces could not be in 4.0 in some
> sort of basic form.
>
> Is this the likely outcome??
>

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[Giancarlo Pinerolo]

Alle 04:31, venerdì 09 ottobre 2009, Aldo ha scritto:
> Thank you pingus, but take a look first before say nothing ;)

Anyway my  reasoning is:

if the new workspaces were thought  to evolve around profiles (no more ws
types definition,  no more roles defiinition, everything from profiles), I
read about profiles (haven't tried them yet), and I wonder how can a system,
that cannot deliver relations among the objects it transfers, work.
The choice of using categories an categ permissions for workspaces, instead of  
object permissions, was mainly dictated by that limit, wasn't it?  Obviously
profiles, as they are now, cannot deliver object permissions...
But then, the evolution that categories are taking is very similar to becoming
a registry system (among other things).
With this design, you may soon find the need for creating  single, individual
object catgories: one category with: its perms, one object, maybe one group
in the categ..
At this point you will see the need for an GUID/UUID (Global/Universal Unique
ID) field instead of the clashing auto-increment id, at least in the category
objects (but I suggest in any object). Because with this the whole pack can
be replicated/transferred/removed without problems of clash, and with all its
relations.
Do you follow me?

So my next question is: are profiles  ready for this? Is the whole system
reeady for this?
The answer is clearly no. Then it was better to stick to aulawiki-workspaces,
understand and improve them, and meanwhile prepare thinks for the big
crossing

Anyway, I don't personally like installing stuff from remote w/o knowing what
it is, and knowing it will be very difficult to remove it. Even mods I prefer
to install by hand. And I suspect there's many like me.

Thanks for you attention if you followed me down to here

Giancarlo pingus
 




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[Marc Laporte-3]

Hi Giancarlo!

Workspaces outside the core (AulaWiki) have been around for quite a
while, indeed. However, they never gained the traction we could have
hoped for. Why? I don't think there is a simple answer. But it's not
because we didn't try. Xavi put super human efforts to make it happen.
AulaWiki was even once added to the core but later removed because
there was too much feature/code duplication, thus was judged too
difficult to maintain. The author was invited many times to work
directly in core, but he didn't have enough time.

As many know, I am mostly in favor of putting things in the core (vs
mods). There are some things I am more flexible on (language files,
image packs, themes), but for features, not so much. And for such a
core feature as workspace, there is absolutely no chance it will ever
work in a futur-proof, scalable, and well-integrated way. It is a
recipe for constantly needing to patch things at each release.

Now, having a reworked AulaWiki in the core could probably have worked
eventually, with the whole community converging around it. But this
didn't happen.

What we have in core now, the way Louis-Philippe designed and
implemented it, is the way to go. It extends all existing features
(organic groups, fine-grained category permissions, etc.) with some
newer concepts (like jailroot, group transitions, perspectives, etc.)
until we have something that can be used as workspaces.

We'll be dogfooding as soon as *.tikiwiki.org sites are upgraded to Tiki4

Best regards,

M ;-)


On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Giancarlo Pinerolo <giancapin@...> wrote:

>
> The motto 'Eat your own dogfood' should be changed into
> 'Eat your own dogfood, first'
>
> Workspaces were working since tiki version 1.8, have been improved and still
> work under version 3.1 afaik. Without touching any pillar.
>
> My impression is that you have tried to avoid eating that dogfood in the first
> place, and went on straight at eating the dog itself :-(
>
> my two cents...
>
> Giancarlo pingus
>
>> Gracefully, with perspectives this work is more easy. And of course,
>> Workspaces needs Social Networking, and viceversa. With this we can create
>> what Xavi de Pedro and Javier Reyes did (or thought) some years ago with
>> Aulawiki.
>>
>> In my opinion I'm going to fix all errors you report in your inform, Marc.
>> I don't care if all of you prefer to revert back what we did to a
>> experimental branch, but honestly, if you do this, Workspaces until 5 or
>> even 6, are not going to be finished. Seriously, Workspaces needs to be in
>> trunk, with this, the people can test this and know what are our plans
>> respect to the futures versions of Tiki (we want to become more open, more
>> social). Maybe some people see what we did, and say, hey, why not to help
>> in this task?
>>
>> Technically with WS Handler (fixing errors or coding some things again),
>> and with some touches in GUI design, some test to wslib (and more cleaning
>> to its functions) we can have Workspaces version 1 working very happily and
>> ready for 4.1 or 4.2
>>
>> But for achieving this, I say again, we need your help. In the next days
>> I'm going to create a wikipage in dev saying what should be done to make
>> this possible.
>>
>> Thank you, and sorry for this long email.
>>
>> Aldo
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 6:29 PM, gezza nagy <gezzzan@...> wrote:
>> > I would also like to help in the design of the GUI, did you publish your
>> > plans somewhere? Is there a starting point for ideas?
>> >
>> > I think if the functionality behind is more or less ok, lets put it to
>> > experimental, lets get used to having workspaces in Tiki :) we can
>> > continue to make the frontend fancier and publish the progress in the 4.x
>> > releases
>> >
>> > thanks&cheers,
>> > gezza
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > *From:* Roberto Javier L?pez Sastre <rober.lopez@...>
>> > *To:* Tikiwiki developers <tikiwiki-devel@...>
>> > *Sent:* Wed, October 7, 2009 6:10:00 PM
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Are workspaces ready for tiki 4.0?
>> >
>> > It's OK Xavi (and all) ;-)
>> > So far we have been working to get a stable wslib, which now uses the
>> > new and great perspectives.This is working I think.
>> > More work has to be done with GUI for managing and admin ws, I agree.
>> > Aldo has sketched his ideas but it's difficult to define the GUI of
>> > such an important feature.
>> >
>> > On the other hand Aldo is going to fix some of the things Marc pointed
>> > in his email.
>> >
>> > It's not important for us whether we branch again or not, although I
>> > think the same as Jonny (+1 for ws in tiki 4 as a experimental
>> > feature).
>> >
>> > I would say Aldo & Ben can prepare a GUI if you help with the design.
>> > The wslib is there, and it's working. We could do this this week.
>> >
>> > Thanks ;-)
>> >
>> > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Xavier de Pedro <xavier.depedro@...>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> > > Sorry to hear that, Roberto.
>> > >
>> > > And specially sorry because the start of this academic semester I had
>> > > to teach a new course, and I haven't got much time to dedicate to tiki
>> > > (at least to test and provide feedback on your work - Ben, Aldo & you).
>> > >
>> > > I still wish some basic interface to create and edit worksapces was
>> > > able to get in tiki 4.x (if not 4.0, then later). But I know that we
>> > > seem to be limited in human resources (mainly developers, I guess) to
>> > > work with your team.
>> > >
>> > > Alternatively, some "clear and easy" way (for end users) to manage
>> > > workspaces through data channels (or by any means) would be desirable
>> > > for tiki 4.x (I understand is not done either..., afaik)
>> > >
>> > > So, I dunno what can be said about "workspaces" for end-users in Tiki4,
>> > > if we don't have any of those two options...
>> > >
>> > > What do others think?
>> > >
>> > > Xavi
>> > >
>> > > En/na Jonny Bradley ha escrit:
>> > >> Hi Roberto and all
>> > >>
>> > >> Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on
>> > >> too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC
>> > >> project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to
>> > >> essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!
>> > >>
>> > >> To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to
>> > >> be done it needs to happen this week (according to
>> >
>> > http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)
>> >
>> > >>   and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and
>> > >> review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it
>> > >> goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their
>> > >> studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day
>> > >> again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you
>> > >> around? You are King of Workspaces!)
>> > >>
>> > >> So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very
>> > >> experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto
>> > >> LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that
>> > >> the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,
>> > >> even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS
>> > >> management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin
>> > >> page at the very least.
>> > >>
>> > >> If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve
>> > >> such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?
>> > >>
>> > >> We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking
>> > >> anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone
>> > >> else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can
>> > >> improve it after 4.0.
>> > >>
>> > >> My two 'spaces,
>> > >>
>> > >> jonny
>> > >>
>> > >> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier L?pez Sastre wrote:
>> > >>> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only
>> > >>> ones giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk.
>> > >>> Thanks again.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but
>> > >>> I would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
>> > >>> the whole community.
>> > >>> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are
>> > >>> touching the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help
>> > >>> from experienced users/developers.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
>> > >>> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
>> > >>> intensity in tiki this course.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I
>> > >>> would say.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
>> > >>> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
>> > >>> improve there, and go back to trunk.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> What do you think? ;-)
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> wrote:
>> > >>>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> For everyone:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
>> > >>>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid
>> > >>>> (Feb 2009)
>> > >>>> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
>> > >>>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
>> > >>>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
>> > >>>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives,
>> > >>>> etc.). It is also about massively improving the user interface.
>> > >>>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate
>> > >>>> enough
>> > >>>> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
>> > >>>> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
>> > >>>> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
>> > >>>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there
>> > >>>> are profiles to test each feature individually.
>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
>> > >>>> categories, etc):
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories
>> > >>>> permissions, etc.
>> > >>>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
>> > >>>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
>> > >>>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
>> > >>>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it
>> > >>>> in
>> > >>>> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but
>> > >>>> the idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are
>> > >>>> some comment.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> 0- On fresh install, I get
>> > >>>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
>> > >>>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
>> > >>>> (42,'o','Leave this
>> > >>>> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
>> > >>>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
>> > >>>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
>> > >>>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
>> > >>>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
>> > >>>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
>> > >>>> preference feature workspaces enabled
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> a) I see NULL at the top
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> b) general settings is empty
>> > >>>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
>> > >>>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
>> > >>>> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis
>> > >>>> for workspaces.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
>> > >>>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
>> > >>>> Please choose another name."
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> c) View: nothing happens
>> > >>>> The page just refreshes
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> d) Delete: works
>> > >>>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
>> > >>>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
>> > >>>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
>> > >>>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without
>> > >>>> warning. That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
>> > >>>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
>> > >>>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> How do I get this to work?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite
>> > >>>> tricky
>> > >>>> to modifiy because people start using.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_admin
>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_addws
>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_removews
>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources
>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_view
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> There are category permissions:
>> > >>>> tiki_p_remove_object
>> > >>>> tiki_p_create_category
>> > >>>> tiki_p_admin_categories
>> > >>>> tiki_p_add_object
>> > >>>> tiki_p_view_category
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
>> > >>>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
>> > >>>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
>> > >>>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
>> > >>>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
>> > >>>> corruption or be removed.)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
>> > >>>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
>> > >>>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature
>> > >>>> freeze. Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to
>> > >>>> get everything to work.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> My proposal:
>> > >>>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an
>> > >>>> experimental branch
>> > >>>> 2- Remove from branch4
>> > >>>> 3- Continue work in branch
>> > >>>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
>> > >>>> profiles and data channels
>> > >>>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
>> > >>>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
>> > >>>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
>> > >>>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
>> > >>>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion
>> > >>>> in 4.1
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> What do you think?
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Best regards,
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> M ;-)
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>> > >>>>> Hi folks!
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in
>> > >>>>> wslib to
>> > >>>>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the
>> > >>>>> work is done.
>> > >>>>> The things we have been working are:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in
>> > >>>>> some
>> > >>>>> functions.
>> > >>>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this
>> > >>>>> ws will
>> > >>>>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
>> > >>>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in
>> > >>>>> fact, we
>> > >>>>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main
>> > >>>>> reason why
>> > >>>>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>> > >>>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with
>> > >>>>> categlib or
>> > >>>>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged
>> > >>>>> it with
>> > >>>>> cache (when needed).
>> > >>>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function
>> > >>>>> used in
>> > >>>>> wslib.
>> > >>>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that
>> > >>>>> allows the
>> > >>>>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the
>> > >>>>> perspective
>> > >>>>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces
>> > >>>>> and delete
>> > >>>>> them.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Things to be done:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage
>> > >>>>> ws properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
>> > >>>>> admincategories.
>> > >>>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single
>> > >>>>> ws ... And
>> > >>>>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage
>> > >>>>> Workspaces we
>> > >>>>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We
>> > >>>>> need your
>> > >>>>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
>> > >>>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working
>> > >>>>> properly, but
>> > >>>>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
>> > >>>>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of
>> > >>>>> functions in wslib
>> > >>>>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With
>> > >>>>> this
>> > >>>>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in
>> > >>>>> Tiki. That
>> > >>>>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of
>> > >>>>> the users.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0
>> > >>>>> (even
>> > >>>>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Cheers, Aldo
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> --
>> > >>>>> Aldo Borrero Gonz?lez
>> > >>>>> Estudiante de Ingenier?a T?cnica en Inform?tica de Sistemas
>> > >>>>> Universidad de Alcal? de Henares
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >-----
>> >
>> > >>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in
>> > >>>>> SF, CA
>> > >>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>> > >>>>> Jumpstart your
>> > >>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>> > >>>>> and stay
>> > >>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>> > >>>>> now!
>> > >>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> > >>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> > >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> --
>> > >>>> Marc Laporte
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> http://MarcLaporte.com
>> > >>>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
>> > >>>> http://AvanTech.net
>> > >>>> http://OurWiki.net
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >-----
>> >
>> > >>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF,
>> > >>>> CA
>> > >>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>> > >>>> your
>> > >>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>> > >>>> and stay
>> > >>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>> > >>>> now!
>> > >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> > >>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> > >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>> > >>>
>> > >>> --
>> > >>> Rober
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >-----
>> >
>> > >>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF,
>> > >>> CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>> > >>> Jumpstart your
>> > >>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>> > >>> stay
>> > >>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>> > >>> now!
>> > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> > >>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >-----
>> >
>> > >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> > >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>> > >> your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>> > >> and
>> >
>> > stay
>> >
>> > >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>> > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> > >> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >-----
>> >
>> > > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> > > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>> > > your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>> > > and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009.
>> > > Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> > > Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>> >
>> > --
>> > Rober
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >----- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
>> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> > Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >----- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
>> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> > Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>

--
Marc Laporte

http://MarcLaporte.com
http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
http://AvanTech.net
http://OurWiki.net

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Roberto Javier López Sastre]

Hi folks!

I have tried to bring together in a TODO list what Marc and Xavi
pointed in their ws reviews (thanks again, you rock)
It's actually a big list, but full of new ideas and things that should
be done asap.
It is here, http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Workspace+Roadmap#Workspaces_TODO_List

Furthermore, I would like to rise this question again: How should be
the ws GUIs?
Please, contribute
http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Workspace+Roadmap#Workspaces_GUI_admin_and_management_

Have fun!

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...> wrote:

> Hi Giancarlo!
>
> Workspaces outside the core (AulaWiki) have been around for quite a
> while, indeed. However, they never gained the traction we could have
> hoped for. Why? I don't think there is a simple answer. But it's not
> because we didn't try. Xavi put super human efforts to make it happen.
> AulaWiki was even once added to the core but later removed because
> there was too much feature/code duplication, thus was judged too
> difficult to maintain. The author was invited many times to work
> directly in core, but he didn't have enough time.
>
> As many know, I am mostly in favor of putting things in the core (vs
> mods). There are some things I am more flexible on (language files,
> image packs, themes), but for features, not so much. And for such a
> core feature as workspace, there is absolutely no chance it will ever
> work in a futur-proof, scalable, and well-integrated way. It is a
> recipe for constantly needing to patch things at each release.
>
> Now, having a reworked AulaWiki in the core could probably have worked
> eventually, with the whole community converging around it. But this
> didn't happen.
>
> What we have in core now, the way Louis-Philippe designed and
> implemented it, is the way to go. It extends all existing features
> (organic groups, fine-grained category permissions, etc.) with some
> newer concepts (like jailroot, group transitions, perspectives, etc.)
> until we have something that can be used as workspaces.
>
> We'll be dogfooding as soon as *.tikiwiki.org sites are upgraded to Tiki4
>
> Best regards,
>
> M ;-)
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Giancarlo Pinerolo <giancapin@...> wrote:
>>
>> The motto 'Eat your own dogfood' should be changed into
>> 'Eat your own dogfood, first'
>>
>> Workspaces were working since tiki version 1.8, have been improved and still
>> work under version 3.1 afaik. Without touching any pillar.
>>
>> My impression is that you have tried to avoid eating that dogfood in the first
>> place, and went on straight at eating the dog itself :-(
>>
>> my two cents...
>>
>> Giancarlo pingus
>>
>>> Gracefully, with perspectives this work is more easy. And of course,
>>> Workspaces needs Social Networking, and viceversa. With this we can create
>>> what Xavi de Pedro and Javier Reyes did (or thought) some years ago with
>>> Aulawiki.
>>>
>>> In my opinion I'm going to fix all errors you report in your inform, Marc.
>>> I don't care if all of you prefer to revert back what we did to a
>>> experimental branch, but honestly, if you do this, Workspaces until 5 or
>>> even 6, are not going to be finished. Seriously, Workspaces needs to be in
>>> trunk, with this, the people can test this and know what are our plans
>>> respect to the futures versions of Tiki (we want to become more open, more
>>> social). Maybe some people see what we did, and say, hey, why not to help
>>> in this task?
>>>
>>> Technically with WS Handler (fixing errors or coding some things again),
>>> and with some touches in GUI design, some test to wslib (and more cleaning
>>> to its functions) we can have Workspaces version 1 working very happily and
>>> ready for 4.1 or 4.2
>>>
>>> But for achieving this, I say again, we need your help. In the next days
>>> I'm going to create a wikipage in dev saying what should be done to make
>>> this possible.
>>>
>>> Thank you, and sorry for this long email.
>>>
>>> Aldo
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 6:29 PM, gezza nagy <gezzzan@...> wrote:
>>> > I would also like to help in the design of the GUI, did you publish your
>>> > plans somewhere? Is there a starting point for ideas?
>>> >
>>> > I think if the functionality behind is more or less ok, lets put it to
>>> > experimental, lets get used to having workspaces in Tiki :) we can
>>> > continue to make the frontend fancier and publish the progress in the 4.x
>>> > releases
>>> >
>>> > thanks&cheers,
>>> > gezza
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> > *From:* Roberto Javier L?pez Sastre <rober.lopez@...>
>>> > *To:* Tikiwiki developers <tikiwiki-devel@...>
>>> > *Sent:* Wed, October 7, 2009 6:10:00 PM
>>> > *Subject:* Re: [Tikiwiki-devel] Are workspaces ready for tiki 4.0?
>>> >
>>> > It's OK Xavi (and all) ;-)
>>> > So far we have been working to get a stable wslib, which now uses the
>>> > new and great perspectives.This is working I think.
>>> > More work has to be done with GUI for managing and admin ws, I agree.
>>> > Aldo has sketched his ideas but it's difficult to define the GUI of
>>> > such an important feature.
>>> >
>>> > On the other hand Aldo is going to fix some of the things Marc pointed
>>> > in his email.
>>> >
>>> > It's not important for us whether we branch again or not, although I
>>> > think the same as Jonny (+1 for ws in tiki 4 as a experimental
>>> > feature).
>>> >
>>> > I would say Aldo & Ben can prepare a GUI if you help with the design.
>>> > The wslib is there, and it's working. We could do this this week.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks ;-)
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Xavier de Pedro <xavier.depedro@...>
>>> >
>>> > wrote:
>>> > > Sorry to hear that, Roberto.
>>> > >
>>> > > And specially sorry because the start of this academic semester I had
>>> > > to teach a new course, and I haven't got much time to dedicate to tiki
>>> > > (at least to test and provide feedback on your work - Ben, Aldo & you).
>>> > >
>>> > > I still wish some basic interface to create and edit worksapces was
>>> > > able to get in tiki 4.x (if not 4.0, then later). But I know that we
>>> > > seem to be limited in human resources (mainly developers, I guess) to
>>> > > work with your team.
>>> > >
>>> > > Alternatively, some "clear and easy" way (for end users) to manage
>>> > > workspaces through data channels (or by any means) would be desirable
>>> > > for tiki 4.x (I understand is not done either..., afaik)
>>> > >
>>> > > So, I dunno what can be said about "workspaces" for end-users in Tiki4,
>>> > > if we don't have any of those two options...
>>> > >
>>> > > What do others think?
>>> > >
>>> > > Xavi
>>> > >
>>> > > En/na Jonny Bradley ha escrit:
>>> > >> Hi Roberto and all
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Sorry i have been unable to help more with this, but i have taken on
>>> > >> too many voluntary duties this year (Quality Team, Kaltura GSoC
>>> > >> project etc - even got the t-shirt! :) and really have to attend to
>>> > >> essential things, like earning enough money to live in London!!!
>>> > >>
>>> > >> To re-branch or not to branch; that's a tricky one... if it's going to
>>> > >> be done it needs to happen this week (according to
>>> >
>>> > http://dev.tikiwiki.org/RoadMap)
>>> >
>>> > >>   and i certainly don't have the time available to check over and
>>> > >> review what's been done properly in that time. I also agree that if it
>>> > >> goes back into an experimental branch, and Benji and Aldo finish their
>>> > >> studies with you, then all that work may never see the light of day
>>> > >> again - and we do agree it's worth having, right? (Xavi, are you
>>> > >> around? You are King of Workspaces!)
>>> > >>
>>> > >> So i think i'm saying - let's leave it in 4.0, but in the very
>>> > >> experimental section. I think much of the code needs to be joined onto
>>> > >> LHP's recent stuff more (jailroot, transitions etc), and i agree that
>>> > >> the WS specific perms should probably go (and use the category ones,
>>> > >> even if they appear with slightly different labels in the WS
>>> > >> management page), but as i understand it, we do need a Workspace admin
>>> > >> page at the very least.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> If it's not in 4.0 at all, i doubt we (the Quality Team) will approve
>>> > >> such a massive new feature being added in a minor release, ay guys?
>>> > >>
>>> > >> We need to double check the WS code isn't likely to be breaking
>>> > >> anything else, and if it's not, i say let's leave it in so everyone
>>> > >> else (it'll be up to the rest of us in the future mostly, i think) can
>>> > >> improve it after 4.0.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> My two 'spaces,
>>> > >>
>>> > >> jonny
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On 6 Oct 2009, at 07:31, Roberto Javier L?pez Sastre wrote:
>>> > >>> Marc, thanks for your review, actually you and Jonny are the only
>>> > >>> ones giving us feedback since we included workspaces (ws) in trunk.
>>> > >>> Thanks again.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> I'm not going to decide whether ws should be in a branch or not, but
>>> > >>> I would like to mention that such a big feature should involve almost
>>> > >>> the whole community.
>>> > >>> We three are only one-year tiki users as you know, and we are
>>> > >>> touching the architecture of tiki!.I honestly think we need more help
>>> > >>> from experienced users/developers.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> What to do? I still don't know. Ben and Aldo are finishing their
>>> > >>> studies this year, and they will not be able to work with the same
>>> > >>> intensity in tiki this course.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> To move or not to move to branch, that is NOT the problem here, I
>>> > >>> would say.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> WS are hard to deal with. If we all want to have ws in tiki (4.x ,
>>> > >>> 5.0, whenever), I really think we need a ws team.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> One the team is formed, we can do what Marc suggests. Go to branch,
>>> > >>> improve there, and go back to trunk.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> What do you think? ;-)
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:51 AM, Marc Laporte <marc@...>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> wrote:
>>> > >>>> Hi Ben & Aldo!
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> For everyone:
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> As background information to get context about workspaces:
>>> > >>>> 1- Serious discussions about workspaces started at TikiFestMadrid
>>> > >>>> (Feb 2009)
>>> > >>>> http://blip.tv/play/Ae_PcpSeVw
>>> > >>>> 2- So the main thing is that workspaces are mostly the result of
>>> > >>>> massive improvements to existing features (groups, categories,
>>> > >>>> permissions, modules, etc.) and some new things (perspectives,
>>> > >>>> etc.). It is also about massively improving the user interface.
>>> > >>>> 3- After these discussions in TikiFestMadrid, we were fortunate
>>> > >>>> enough
>>> > >>>> to get two projects for Google Summer of Code (GSOC) 2009 for Ben &
>>> > >>>> Aldo. And as well, we are able to get funding to have more people
>>> > >>>> working on it and hold a 10-day TikiFest in Barcelona.
>>> > >>>> http://tikiwiki.org/TikiFestWSSN
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Here is the state of things as I see them:
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> A- The improvements of core features works fairly well, and there
>>> > >>>> are profiles to test each feature individually.
>>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Jailroot_Demonstration
>>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Group_Transition_Demonstration
>>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Category_Transition_Demonstration
>>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Sample_for_Perms_Auditing
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Now, there are two ways to manage them (workspaces as evolution of
>>> > >>>> categories, etc):
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> 1- Manually. Add pages to categories, give those categories
>>> > >>>> permissions, etc.
>>> > >>>> 2- Using advanced profiles, which include data channels. They are
>>> > >>>> powerful and flexible but difficult to make. There are not any
>>> > >>>> complete examples yet. Here are first two on Wishlist:
>>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Learning_Center
>>> > >>>> http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Project_Management
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> What Ben & Aldo are working on here is something more that can help
>>> > >>>> create/manage a workspace, add permissions and assign objects to it
>>> > >>>> in
>>> > >>>> one easy interface.  More powerful than the category browser, but
>>> > >>>> the idea is that it reuses the existing category libs.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> I just did a fresh install of trunk. (barebones install). Here are
>>> > >>>> some comment.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> 0- On fresh install, I get
>>> > >>>> --INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`, `url`,
>>> > >>>> `position`, `section`, `perm`, `groupname`, `userlevel`) VALUES
>>> > >>>> (42,'o','Leave this
>>> > >>>> Workspace','tiki-switch_workspaces.php',
>>> > >>>> 930,'feature_workspaces','tiki_p_ws_view','',0)
>>> > >>>> You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that
>>> > >>>> corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
>>> > >>>> near '--INSERT INTO `tiki_menu_options` (`menuId`, `type`, `name`,
>>> > >>>> `url`, `position`, ' at line 1
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> 1- tiki-admin.php?page=features
>>> > >>>> preference feature workspaces enabled
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> 2- tiki-admin.php?page=workspaces
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> a) I see NULL at the top
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> b) general settings is empty
>>> > >>>> Why have an empty tab? What should go here?
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> c) Workspaces Dev Tools
>>> > >>>> Nothing seems to happen with any of the options.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> 3- tiki-manage-workspaces.php
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> a) I can create a new workspace. Good! It also creates a group
>>> > >>>> But, it doesn't create a category. Yet, categories are the basis
>>> > >>>> for workspaces.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> b) When I try to edit, nothing happens. A few days ago, I would get:
>>> > >>>> "There already exists a Workspace with that name in the same level.
>>> > >>>> Please choose another name."
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> c) View: nothing happens
>>> > >>>> The page just refreshes
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> d) Delete: works
>>> > >>>> 1- but no confirmation message (better to have on delete actions)
>>> > >>>> 2- it deletes the group as well, which is not ideal. Someone can
>>> > >>>> create a group, and assign to several workspaces. Now, if you delete
>>> > >>>> one of the workspaces, the group is deleted for all, without
>>> > >>>> warning. That group could be used for many things (ex.: newsletter
>>> > >>>> subscription, object permissions, etc. )
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> 4- tiki-my-workspaces.php
>>> > >>>> "You do not belong to any workspace."
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> How do I get this to work?
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> 5- You introduced new permissions. Once they are in, it's quite
>>> > >>>> tricky
>>> > >>>> to modifiy because people start using.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_admin
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_addws
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_removews
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_adminws
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_adminresources
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_admingroups
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_view
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Yet, it's not clear how they are used.  How do I give a
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_ws_addws on an individual workspace?
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> There are category permissions:
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_remove_object
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_create_category
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_admin_categories
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_add_object
>>> > >>>> tiki_p_view_category
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> There is overlap. This will cause confusion among users.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> There were several changes which were explained and agreed in
>>> > >>>> Barcelona (early August) and supposed to be done before merging into
>>> > >>>> trunk. They were not done before the merge and are still not yet all
>>> > >>>> done (Ex.: Changes to the category table: rootCategId manipulation
>>> > >>>> must be moved and maintained inside CategLib to avoid database
>>> > >>>> corruption or be removed.)
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> One of the issues of when you are in trunk: you need to support data
>>> > >>>> migration. As you have seen, it's more work to maintain
>>> > >>>> http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Database+Schema+Upgrade
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> I think you need more time. We are 4 days away from a feature
>>> > >>>> freeze. Leaving it in Tiki4 will put huge pressure on you to have to
>>> > >>>> get everything to work.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> My proposal:
>>> > >>>> 1- Move back tiki-my-workspaces.php, workspacelib, etc to an
>>> > >>>> experimental branch
>>> > >>>> 2- Remove from branch4
>>> > >>>> 3- Continue work in branch
>>> > >>>> 3a) focus on understanding very well and making workspaces from
>>> > >>>> profiles and data channels
>>> > >>>> 3b) patterns will emerge, and from these patterns, it'll become
>>> > >>>> clearer what the main goals of the workspace interface should be
>>> > >>>> 3c) When ready, merge back to trunk.
>>> > >>>> 4- Let the community test for 2-3 weeks. Once community consensus is
>>> > >>>> that it works well enough, apply to proposed branch, for inclusion
>>> > >>>> in 4.1
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> What do you think?
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Best regards,
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> M ;-)
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Aldo <axold07@...> wrote:
>>> > >>>>> Hi folks!
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Well, these days for us (Benji and I) we have working more in
>>> > >>>>> wslib to
>>> > >>>>> improve it. And we can say that the most important part of the
>>> > >>>>> work is done.
>>> > >>>>> The things we have been working are:
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Improvements over wslib. We have removed duplicated code we had in
>>> > >>>>> some
>>> > >>>>> functions.
>>> > >>>>> Fully perspective integration. Now you can create one ws and this
>>> > >>>>> ws will
>>> > >>>>> have its perspective. The same if you edit one ws, or remove it.
>>> > >>>>> Some changes in categlib. WS and categories are the same, but in
>>> > >>>>> fact, we
>>> > >>>>> considered that categories are different of ws. This is the main
>>> > >>>>> reason why
>>> > >>>>> categories don't list workspaces and viceversa.
>>> > >>>>> Cache integration. Some functions in ws can not be done with
>>> > >>>>> categlib or
>>> > >>>>> other libraries. For these special functions we have turbocharged
>>> > >>>>> it with
>>> > >>>>> cache (when needed).
>>> > >>>>> Some changes in perspectivelib. We have created a new function
>>> > >>>>> used in
>>> > >>>>> wslib.
>>> > >>>>> Changes in tpls. Now there are only a 'My Workspaces'.tpl that
>>> > >>>>> allows the
>>> > >>>>> user to select the workspace and enter inside (changing the
>>> > >>>>> perspective
>>> > >>>>> internally). Manage Workspaces.tpl now allows to add workspaces
>>> > >>>>> and delete
>>> > >>>>> them.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Things to be done:
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> The most important thing we need is to have a solid gui to manage
>>> > >>>>> ws properly. You can with hacks, add resources to a ws in tiki-
>>> > >>>>> admincategories.
>>> > >>>>> The same if you want to add a guy to a specific group in a single
>>> > >>>>> ws ... And
>>> > >>>>> more, this tasks are very tedious to do right now. In Manage
>>> > >>>>> Workspaces we
>>> > >>>>> have basic functionality (create a new ws, and delete them). We
>>> > >>>>> need your
>>> > >>>>> help here, specially GUI designers (like jonny, luci, me ...).
>>> > >>>>> WS Handler. Right now we have a WS Handler that is not working
>>> > >>>>> properly, but
>>> > >>>>> with a few tweaks ... we can revive it
>>> > >>>>> Report bugs and solve it.  We have been changing a lot of
>>> > >>>>> functions in wslib
>>> > >>>>> in short time, so probably, there will be bugs waiting us.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> The good news are that we have Alma running (our Tiki site). With
>>> > >>>>> this
>>> > >>>>> platform we are going to be the first guys using workspaces in
>>> > >>>>> Tiki. That
>>> > >>>>> means we can improve more faster ws in tiki with the feedback of
>>> > >>>>> the users.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> So, I want to ask you something, are workspaces ready for Tiki 4.0
>>> > >>>>> (even
>>> > >>>>> with lacks of functionality) at least the basic version?
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Cheers, Aldo
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> --
>>> > >>>>> Aldo Borrero Gonz?lez
>>> > >>>>> Estudiante de Ingenier?a T?cnica en Inform?tica de Sistemas
>>> > >>>>> Universidad de Alcal? de Henares
>>> >
>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >-----
>>> >
>>> > >>>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in
>>> > >>>>> SF, CA
>>> > >>>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>>> > >>>>> Jumpstart your
>>> > >>>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>> > >>>>> and stay
>>> > >>>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>> > >>>>> now!
>>> > >>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> > >>>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> > >>>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> > >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> --
>>> > >>>> Marc Laporte
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> http://MarcLaporte.com
>>> > >>>> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
>>> > >>>> http://AvanTech.net
>>> > >>>> http://OurWiki.net
>>> >
>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >-----
>>> >
>>> > >>>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF,
>>> > >>>> CA
>>> > >>>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>> > >>>> your
>>> > >>>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>> > >>>> and stay
>>> > >>>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>> > >>>> now!
>>> > >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> > >>>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> > >>>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> > >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> --
>>> > >>> Rober
>>> >
>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >-----
>>> >
>>> > >>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF,
>>> > >>> CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year.
>>> > >>> Jumpstart your
>>> > >>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and
>>> > >>> stay
>>> > >>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register
>>> > >>> now!
>>> > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>>> > >>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> > >>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>> >
>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >-----
>>> >
>>> > >> Come build with us! The BlackBerry® Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> > >> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>> > >> your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>> > >> and
>>> >
>>> > stay
>>> >
>>> > >> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9-12, 2009. Register now!
>>> > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf
>>> > >> _______________________________________________
>>> > >> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> > >> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>> >
>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >-----
>>> >
>>> > > Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> > > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart
>>> > > your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market
>>> > > and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009.
>>> > > Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> > > Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Rober
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >----- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>>> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
>>> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> > Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >----- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
>>> > is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>>> > developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>>> > ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
>>> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>>> > Tikiwiki-devel@...
>>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
>> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
>> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
>> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
>> Tikiwiki-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Marc Laporte
>
> http://MarcLaporte.com
> http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
> http://AvanTech.net
> http://OurWiki.net
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference
> _______________________________________________
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> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>

--
Rober

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[Marc Laporte-3]

> Anyway my  reasoning is:
>
> if the new workspaces were thought  to evolve around profiles (no more ws
> types definition,  no more roles defiinition, everything from profiles), I
> read about profiles (haven't tried them yet), and I wonder how can a system,
> that cannot deliver relations among the objects it transfers, work.


Hi Giancarlo!

Profiles handle relations between objects (if these are possible in
Tiki). Ex.: relations between various trackers, categories, wiki
pages, groups etc. Each object can have an ID and that ID can be used
by other objects as a reference ID. This is particularly important to
make advanced tracker-based profiles because we must relate various
trackers. Ex: a project list tracker and a time sheet tracker. Could
be between a wiki page and a tracker, etc.

For example:
http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Time_Sheet

The other way objects can be "related", is by sharing a category.
Then, they can be in a perspective.


> The choice of using categories an categ permissions for workspaces, instead of
> object permissions, was mainly dictated by that limit, wasn't it?  Obviously
> profiles, as they are now, cannot deliver object permissions...


Yes they can.  Why wouldn't they?

Assigning object permissions via a profile is just as possible via
profiles than it is to do it via the GUI.
http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Permission+Management

Fined-grained category permissions is a long-standing feature request
and it is central to workspaces. It is to make management easier but
you can override with object permissions. You could even exclusively
use object permissions if you wanted to...

> But then, the evolution that categories are taking is very similar to becoming
> a registry system (among other things).
> With this design, you may soon find the need for creating  single, individual
> object catgories: one category with: its perms, one object, maybe one group
> in the categ..
> At this point you will see the need for an GUID/UUID (Global/Universal Unique
> ID) field instead of the clashing auto-increment id, at least in the category
> objects (but I suggest in any object). Because with this the whole pack can
> be replicated/transferred/removed without problems of clash, and with all its
> relations.
> Do you follow me?
>

I am not sure if I follow you.

But you can create as few or as many categories as you want. This is
the beauty of design. Utter flexibility to deal with very varied use
cases. These are not just for workspaces with an educational scenario.
Here are 10 use cases:
http://profiles.tikiwiki.org/Workspaces

The main benefit of profiles is to offer very diverse out-of-the-box
solutions, while keeping a maintainable code base.


> So my next question is: are profiles  ready for this? Is the whole system
> reeady for this?
> The answer is clearly no. Then it was better to stick to aulawiki-workspaces,
> understand and improve them, and meanwhile prepare thinks for the big
> crossing
>

I think you underestimate both the profiles and workspace system
developed by Louis-Philippe. I hope you will take some time to
experiment and learn profiles.

In these "massive enhancement" projects, it's essential to be wise and
only start things we know we'll have the resources to finish. There
are plenty of things we would have wanted to revamp. However, with the
resources we had, we set priorities. And according to these
priorities, since the beginning, we knew some some things would be
ready for Tiki4 and others for Tiki5.
See http://dev.tikiwiki.org/Workspace+Roadmap

There is still a lot of work. Mainly:
1- Develop more profiles
2- Improve UI (permission auditing, batch allocation, etc.)
3- Finish adapting existing features (tracker items, modules) to new
infrastructure (perspectives, new perms, etc.)
4- The GUI Aldo & Ben are working on
5- etc.

However, the back-end is sound. It is flexible and covers all the use
cases. And it was done mostly by extending the existing code of Tiki.
If people do not need workspaces per-se, they will probably still have
some use for some of the enhancements. Thus, it's future-proof and
will never become orphaned code.


> Anyway, I don't personally like installing stuff from remote w/o knowing what
> it is, and knowing it will be very difficult to remove it. Even mods I prefer
> to install by hand. And I suspect there's many like me.
>


The whole profile is human readable in wiki pages on
profiles.tikiwiki.org   This is easier than to read php files. It
re-uses exiting Tiki code. It just simulates someone clicking around
in the admin panels, creating content, etc. See profiles as a recipe.
You could do all the work manually.



About the difficulty to remove profiles:

That is like saying it's difficult to remove wiki pages once they are
made. Or to say, it's difficult to revert a preference change. It's
not difficult, it's just long. And it's easy to forget what we did.

The limitation is that we don't currently have a comprehensive logging
system in Tiki. Preferences changes and object creation should be in
the system log.
http://dev.tikiwiki.org/System+log
Once we do (and profiles are not to blame here), we could just tag any
changes done by profiles. Profiles re-use existing Tiki code to do
stuff (add objects, permissions, etc.). So once we have better logs
(and easy undos), we could easily add mass undos.

Does anyone want to help with this?


As you prefer to install mods by hand, can you review/confirm that the
doc here is accurate?
http://doc.tikiwiki.org/Mods
I think for mods to grow, such a manual install process is important.
(For when server perms are not cooperating)

> Thanks for you attention if you followed me down to here
>
> Giancarlo pingus
>
>


I know you invested a lot of time to fix and improve AulaWiki. I hope
you find the same energy to learn, use and improve profiles &
workspaces. As we have more & more profiles, more & more community
members will benefit and see the tangible benefits of profiles.

Thanks!

M ;-)

>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
> is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your
> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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> _______________________________________________
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> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>

--
Marc Laporte

http://MarcLaporte.com
http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
http://AvanTech.net
http://OurWiki.net

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