Arguments Against 4D

[Cory Rau]

Potential client of mine had an assessment done by some SQL developers  
who, I believe, were pitching custom development of an application  
with a web front-end and MySQL back-end.  Here are some anti-4D  
arguments he presented to my potential client.

Here are some things I'd like to point out....Client does not need a  
"robust" SQL engine nor do I envision them needing BLOB arrays.  We're  
talking about 6 users spread over 3 locations.  I also realize that  
some of these "points" are so vague that they are not really arguable  
without more information.

>> These are limitations of 4D when compared to other
>> development environments:
>>
>> a.  Very good RAD but does not have robust SQL engine.
>>                      i.   Future upgrades and features could be  
>> limited with smaller user, developer base.
>>                     ii.   With its usage and market share being  
>> low, very less choice of vendors for development.
>>
>> b.  Not reliable - Frequent table corruption on Windows but no
>>                      i.   efficient recovery mechanisms.
>>                     ii.   Backup procedures are not smart in a  
>> sense that it does not message clearly failed backups.
>>
>> c.  Do not have smarter memory management -
>>                      i.   pinning frequently used objects and  
>> clearing objects not used.
>>
>> d.  Cannot have arrays of type BLOB - to store huge text, pictures,  
>> video
>>
>> e.  Not easy to access data dictionary which is important to  
>> monitor the state of database being manipulated
>>
>> f.  Not a stable software – known bugs, releases, versions are not  
>> frequent.
>>
>> g.  Does not have robust Recovery, Availability, Scalability and  
>> Security

I don't want to touch off a firestorm of activity on this.  I'm  
interested to read what some pro-4D people (or those who use 4D but  
have problems with it) have to say in response.  I've formulated some  
of my own responses, having been working with 4D for about 13 years,  
but I'm interested in the takes of others on the topics raised here.

Note: *** PLEASE RESPOND TO ME DIRECTLY ON THIS, NOT TO THE LIST ***

I will be happy to condense responses and post to the list at a later  
date if that would be of interest to people.

Regards,
Cory**********************************************************************
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[David Ringsmuth]

Cory,

It would not take much effort to demonstrate that the person(s) who said
this don't know what they are talking about. Given that, they should not be
giving advice about it. Since they are, they are not high quality
professionals. Since this is the case: caveat emptor!

David

-----Original Message-----
From: 4d_tech-bounces@... [mailto:4d_tech-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Cory Rau
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 11:56 AM
To: 4D iNug Technical
Subject: Arguments Against 4D

Potential client of mine had an assessment done by some SQL developers  
who, I believe, were pitching custom development of an application  
with a web front-end and MySQL back-end.  Here are some anti-4D  
arguments he presented to my potential client.

Here are some things I'd like to point out....Client does not need a  
"robust" SQL engine nor do I envision them needing BLOB arrays.  We're  
talking about 6 users spread over 3 locations.  I also realize that  
some of these "points" are so vague that they are not really arguable  
without more information.

>> These are limitations of 4D when compared to other
>> development environments:
>>
>> a.  Very good RAD but does not have robust SQL engine.
>>                      i.   Future upgrades and features could be  
>> limited with smaller user, developer base.
>>                     ii.   With its usage and market share being  
>> low, very less choice of vendors for development.
>>
>> b.  Not reliable - Frequent table corruption on Windows but no
>>                      i.   efficient recovery mechanisms.
>>                     ii.   Backup procedures are not smart in a  
>> sense that it does not message clearly failed backups.
>>
>> c.  Do not have smarter memory management -
>>                      i.   pinning frequently used objects and  
>> clearing objects not used.
>>
>> d.  Cannot have arrays of type BLOB - to store huge text, pictures,  
>> video
>>
>> e.  Not easy to access data dictionary which is important to  
>> monitor the state of database being manipulated
>>
>> f.  Not a stable software - known bugs, releases, versions are not  
>> frequent.
>>
>> g.  Does not have robust Recovery, Availability, Scalability and  
>> Security

I don't want to touch off a firestorm of activity on this.  I'm  
interested to read what some pro-4D people (or those who use 4D but  
have problems with it) have to say in response.  I've formulated some  
of my own responses, having been working with 4D for about 13 years,  
but I'm interested in the takes of others on the topics raised here.

Note: *** PLEASE RESPOND TO ME DIRECTLY ON THIS, NOT TO THE LIST ***

I will be happy to condense responses and post to the list at a later  
date if that would be of interest to people.

Regards,
Cory**********************************************************************
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[psmith-3]

Cory,

I don't know what market you're working in and whether this type of  
thing is important. However, your competitor's list of arguments  
against 4D is rampant with English errors. I would never give  
something like that in writing to a customer. Not to mention the fact  
that their arguments are weak.

Aside from that, you could ask your customer why he doesn't just go  
with Oracle? But wait, this is a six-user database, isn't it?

Tell your customer politely that he doesn't need to use a sledge  
hammer to kill a fly. 4D is flexible, fast and allows rapid  
development and deployment that can't be equaled by a web-based  
solution with MySQL on the back end. It's a cost-effective way to  
handle his requirements.

Ask your customer how many times he consults his data dictionary each  
decade. If it's more than once... you can write him an interface to  
show the data dictionary.

Paul Smith

TSE International

> Potential client of mine had an assessment done by some SQL  
> developers who, I believe, were pitching custom development of an  
> application with a web front-end and MySQL back-end.  Here are some  
> anti-4D arguments he presented to my potential client.
>
> Here are some things I'd like to point out....Client does not need a  
> "robust" SQL engine nor do I envision them needing BLOB arrays.  
> We're talking about 6 users spread over 3 locations.  I also realize  
> that some of these "points" are so vague that they are not really  
> arguable without more information.

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[Jim Labos]

Cory,

Since the competitor has pointed out that 4D is a "very good RAD" and  
that the weakness is SQL engine I would counter with adding mySQL to  
your arsenal and state that 4D WITH mySQL beats them out then (as per  
their logic).

But its never a great idea to base your sale on the negative aspects  
of competition. Push your positives along with 4D and use mySQL as an  
added bonus. They opened the door for that argument so use it against  
them without being defensive.

Good luck.


Jim Labos - infobase
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[Steve Makohin]

Hello All,

When I see "reviews" like this, I like to speak with the "reviewers"
face-to-face, with the key decision-makers and key influencers present, and
ask some poignant questions, such as:

(1) You stated 4D is a "bad choice" because it has "table corruptions". So
are you asserting that your recommendation has none, or are you telling me
you are not *aware* of any? Can you quantify how big of a risk or problem
this is in our specific implementation, because it appears that many, many
4D users are NOT experiencing table corruptions. So your assertion is far
from being an accurate "across the board" typification of 4D.

(2) Your argument about "lack of features" in 4D is similar to us reviewing
the ocean of features that 4D *does* have, and then saying your solution is
not recommended for lack of 4D's features.! Simply put, your only statement
in all your conclusions, is that 4D is different from what *you* know best,
and what *you* prefer. For example, your statement that 4D "Does not have
smarter memory management [such as] pinning frequently used objects and
clearing objects not used" is a red herring. 4D's memory management results
in high performance for end users, no maintenance issues to IT staff, and
for our developers, it arguably simplifies coding by allowing 4D to manage
objects in memory automatically, rather than requiring the programmer to
manually code for this, debug it, and maintain this code. So what we have,
in fact, is a very positive characteristic in 4D that you have presented as
a negative. And if you want to get picky, in 4D, you can do exactly what you
describe. For example, if you are working with a BLOB in 4D, a Binary Large
Object, you simply define a BLOB variable, and populate it. It stays in
memory until you clear that BLOB variable, at which point it no longer
consumes memory. 4D can do exactly what you say it can't!

It really does appear that your "reviewer's" bias against 4D is not formed
through independent, objective evaluation, but rather from being unfamiliar
with the tool, and much preferring to stick with what they already know, and
are comfortable with.

I could go on and on. No one product does all things, or is without issues.
Including 4D. But that's where smart programmers step in to devise
solutions, or, simply learn how to use their tools more effectively.

Get the tools that work for you, for your specific needs. The problem I see,
is that some developers truly believe that what *they* know, is best for
everyone else, too. To a man whose favorite (or only) tool is a hammer,
every problem looks like a nail.

-Steve Makohin
 Water's Edge Software
 Oakville, Ontario, Canada

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[psmith-3]

Cory,

I was also thinking about MySQL's fate, now that Oracle are buying Sun  
- who own MySQL (sort of).

What will Oracle do with MySQL - one of its competitors in the  
database market? Will MySQL become marginalized? Will Oracle stop  
supporting it?

OK, there is open source MySQL but should a business build its system  
on open source with no guarantee of support?

Paul Smith

TSE International

> Potential client of mine had an assessment done by some SQL  
> developers who, I believe, were pitching custom development of an  
> application with a web front-end and MySQL back-end.  Here are some  
> anti-4D arguments he presented to my potential client.
>
> Here are some things I'd like to point out....Client does not need a  
> "robust" SQL engine nor do I envision them needing BLOB arrays.  
> We're talking about 6 users spread over 3 locations.  I also realize  
> that some of these "points" are so vague that they are not really  
> arguable without more information.

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[Mehboob Alam]

There are already two MySQL forks out there..

MariaDB (Open Database Alliance), by one of the original authors of MySQL
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10241626-92.html?tag=mncol

Drizzle - simplified, stripped-down, high-performance fork
http://adam.blog.heroku.com/past/2009/2/3/drizzle_simplified_mysql_fork/

Oracle, basically owns the name "MySQL"...

 sincerely,
mehboob alam




Electricity is actually made up of extremely tiny particles called electrons,
that you cannot see with the naked eye unless you have been drinking.
 - Dave Barry


     
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