Article for wide review: Choosing a language tag

[Richard Ishida]

http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags


Comments are being sought on this article prior to final release. Please send any comments to www-international@... (subscribe). We expect to publish a final version in one to two weeks.





============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/International/
http://rishida.net/

[John Cowan]

> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags
>
> Comments are being sought on this article prior to final release. Please
> send any comments to www-international@... (subscribe). We expect
> to publish a final version in one to two weeks.

In Decision 1, the section on macrolanguages should explain that
macrolanguage subtags may be used in the same way, and with the same
considerations, as collection subtags.  This is quite apart from their
use with extlang subtags.

In Decision 2:

a) It's a mistake to conflate "[p]rimary language subtags that can be
used with extended language subtags" with macrolanguages.  Only six
('ar', 'kok', 'ms', 'sw', 'uz', 'zh') of the 58 current macrolanguages,
plus 'sgn', fall into this category.  Find or invent another term to
avoid confusion.

b) Explain clearly that the extlang tags are always identical to their
primary language subtags, so "kok-gom" can be replaced by "gom" even if
you don't know what 'kok' or 'gom' mean.

In Decision 4, for "regional areas", which is vague, read "regions
containing more than one country" or "multinational regions".

--
And it was said that ever after, if any                 John Cowan
man looked in that Stone, unless he had a               cowan@...
great strength of will to turn it to other              http://ccil.org/~cowan
purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering
in flame.   --"The Pyre of Denethor"

[Phillips, Addison]

>
> In Decision 1, the section on macrolanguages should explain that
> macrolanguage subtags may be used in the same way, and with the
> same considerations, as collection subtags.  

This is correct, insofar as it goes. The one exception would be the extended language subtag collection. In some cases, the macrolanguage (for example, 'zh' Chinese) is preferable to using the predominant encompassed language's subtag (in this case, 'cmn' for Mandarin Chinese), except in cases where specifying 'cmn' would be preferable.

An example is probably useful.

For setting the preferences on your web browser, you probably want to use ranges that start with 'zh' if you prefer content in Chinese, instead of adopting tags starting with the subtag 'cmn', even though Mandarin Chinese is the most common form, possibly adding ranges beginning with 'yue' if you also prefer to receive Cantonese content. Similarly, you would tag your blog with tags like "zh-Hans-CN" or "zh-Hant-TW".

You might, by contrast, use 'cmn' as your primary language subtag if your task is cataloging various passages of text in different Sinitic languages to share with linguistic scholars who will expect and appreciate the distinction. Whether you use the 'zh' subtag in front of 'cmn' is a matter of personal preference and utility.

>
> a) It's a mistake to conflate "[p]rimary language subtags that can
> be used with extended language subtags" with macrolanguages.  Only six
> ('ar', 'kok', 'ms', 'sw', 'uz', 'zh') of the 58 current
> macrolanguages,
> plus 'sgn', fall into this category.  Find or invent another term
> to avoid confusion.

I agree. I think some of us have gotten into the habit of talking about the macrolanguage-flavored extlangs as if they described the category. They do not. Probably the best name for this are: "extended language subtags" :-).

Note that the RFC's introduction to this topic (section 2.2.2) is pretty clear:

--
Extended language subtags are used to identify certain specially selected languages that, for various historical and compatibility reasons, are closely identified with or tagged using an existing primary language subtag. Extended language subtags are always used with their enclosing primary language subtag (indicated with a 'Prefix' field in the registry) when used to form the language tag. All languages that have an extended language subtag in the registry also have an identical primary language subtag record in the registry. This primary language subtag is RECOMMENDED for forming the language tag.
--

Note in particular that these are "specially selected languages". That is quite literally the qualification for being an extlang---that the IETF LTRU WG chose them (and no others).

The sign languages in particular are illustrative: they are treated as if 'sgn' were a macrolanguage, in that they appear both independently as primary language subtags and as extlangs of 'sgn'---and 'sgn' is emphatically not a macrolanguage.

>
> In Decision 4, for "regional areas", which is vague, read "regions
> containing more than one country" or "multinational regions".

+1

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.

[John Cowan]

Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> > a) It's a mistake to conflate "[p]rimary language subtags that can
> > be used with extended language subtags" with macrolanguages.  Only six
> > ('ar', 'kok', 'ms', 'sw', 'uz', 'zh') of the 58 current
> > macrolanguages,
> > plus 'sgn', fall into this category.  Find or invent another term
> > to avoid confusion.
>
> I agree. I think some of us have gotten into the habit of talking
> about the macrolanguage-flavored extlangs as if they described the
> category. They do not. Probably the best name for this are: "extended
> language subtags" :-).

Well, "extended language subtag" is the right name for the second
subtag in "kok-gom", but what is the right name for the first subtag?
Just saying "primary language subtag", though correct, doesn't note
what's special about "kok" and its six friends.

> Note in particular that these are "specially selected languages". That
> is quite literally the qualification for being an extlang---that the
> IETF LTRU WG chose them (and no others).

Perhaps we should call the primary language tags that have extlang
subtags the "specially selected language subtags", then.

--
In my last lifetime,                            John Cowan
I believed in reincarnation;                    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
in this lifetime,                               cowan@...
I don't.  --Thiagi

[CE Whitehead]

Hi.
From: Phillips, Addison>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 18:27:20 -0700
>"For setting the preferences on your web browser, you probably want to use ranges
> that start with 'zh' if you prefer content in Chinese, instead of adopting tags
> starting with the subtag 'cmn', even though Mandarin Chinese is the most common
> form, possibly adding ranges beginning with 'yue' if you also prefer to receive
> Cantonese content. Similarly, you would tag your blog with tags like "zh-Hans-CN"
> or "zh-Hant-TW"."
Yes to the above; however I think you mean "content in written Chinese" (and of course largely in the Chinese script, rather than Romanized Chinese, which could be tagged with 'cmn,' since it is generally Mandarin Chinese that is Romanized--for persons not from China studying Chinese??).
Similarly [ar] is used to indicate content in written Arabic, which is the standardized form, appropriate for most written content (that is most written content in Arabic is not localized for a particular dialect--the exception of course may be songs--in spite of the comments on it provided by Richard Ishida's
search utility:
http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/index.php?find=Arabic&submit=Find&lookup=&list=0&check=);
see:
http://knol.google.com/k/hussein-maxos/problems-of-spoken-written-arabic/3me2c8ayno8so/1#
For a very good summary of the issues as far as Arabic goes! (This is not however a thorough treatment of all dialectical differences--perhaps because vowel diacritics are not often written in Arabic, Mr./Dr. Maxos seems to have ignored the differences in the pronunciation of vowel sounds that accompany the differences in the pronunciation of the consonants across the dialects.)

Best,

--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@...    

[CE Whitehead]

Hi, I've read all but the last two sections (on private use and grandfathered subtags) of "Choosing a Language Tag"

( http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags);

most of my comments are on the English, although a few are on content:




* * *





Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 4 (ORDER/ORGANIZATION)



"Particular thanks are due to Addison Phillips and Mark Davis, authors of BCP 47, for help in producing this article."



{ COMMENT: this is not really part of the answer to the above question although Mark Davis and Addison Phillips have worked hard on BP 47;
If Mark and Addison have worked hard on the whole article, this should be moved to near the top of the article, immediately following the opening paragraph, and before the first question is presented!}



Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?" par 7, last sentence (ENGLISH)



"Your search will have matched against the Description field. Check that the type of this record is language. What you are looking for is the value in the Subtag field, ie. fr."


{ COMMENT: I would have liked to have seen at least single quotation marks around 'fr'.
Also, is it clear from the last sentence that 'fr' is going to be used in the language tag??
>= "The language tag is formed using the value in the subtag field, which is 'fr'."
}



Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 8, sentence 1 (ENGLISH)



"The rest of this article will provide advice for choosing primary language and possibly other types of subtag. Note that not all the decisions about how to create a language tag are straightforward. There are circumstances where usage will dictate which of various possibilities you should follow."



{ COMMENT: Because there may be more than one subtag following the primary language subtag in a language tag, I think "subtags" should be plural;
also I think that "primary language subtag" might benefit from a definite article since there is one primary language subtag"--thus it is in some sense specific


>=
"The rest of this article will provide advice for choosing the primary language and possibly other types of subtags."
}



Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 9 CONTENT


"There are tools available which provide additional help while searching the registry, such as Richard Ishida's Language Subtag Lookup tool."


{COMMENT: this could be more specific (we just discussed these at ietf-languages):



for example,

>= "There are tools which search through a copy of the registry for a particular description, etc. . . . "

You might even go on to say, "a reasonably up-to-date copy of the registry. . ."

}


* * *
Decision 1, par 2, first bullet CONTENT



"'Often it is not clear which language identifier to use. For example, what most people call Punjabi in Pakistan actually has the code 'lah', and formal name 'Lahnda'.'"



{COMMENTS:
??? As you note in your utlity
http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/index.php?find=&lookup=lah&submit=Look+up&list=0&check=

'lah' (lahnda) is a macrolanguage and punjabi as used in Pakistan can get a more specific subtag!
?? or am I confused; lahnda is used widely and not just in Pakistan; punjabi or western panjabi is only used in Pakistan; several other varieties of lahnda are used in Pakistan however but these are not called Punjabi? So is this the best example??

Another example might be Persian-Farsi-Dari: if you search for 'Persian,' you want a specific language subtag, 'pes' probably (identified/described as 'farsi'; I once thought that 'Western Persian' was going to be added as a second description field for 'pes' but I guess this is a can of worms right now and has already been discussed to the fullest extent possible at ietf-languages.; see:

http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2008-December/008715.html

}


* * *


Decision 1, par 2, first bullet, par 2 ENGLISH


"You could look up language information in the SIL Ethnologue and cross-referencing with Wikipedia.


{ COMMENTS:
??? "cross-referencing" has no direct object here but should normally take one; also it's not even clear whether it's the audience of this sentence
or SIL Ethnologue who will be doing the cross-referencing (that is the subject antecedent is not clear)
perhaps because the two verbs ("look up" and "cross-referencing") are not syntactically parallel--which they should be if 'you' is the subject for both!
>= "You could look up language information in the SIL Ethnologue and cross-reference it with information in Wikipedia."
}



Decision 1, par 2, second bullet, par 2 PUNCTUATION



"For example, ku (Kurdish) is a macrolanguage that encompasses ckb (Central Kurdish), kmr (Northern Kurdish), and sdh (Southern Kurdish),"



{ COMMENT:

There should be a full-stop, and not a comma, at the end of the above paragraph.
}



Decision 1, par 2, third bullet, par 2 ENGLISH



"You should look for a more specific subtag for the language you are wanting to use. Unfortunately, the registry doesn't provide any pointers for this."


{ COMMENT: Awkward; why "you are wanting"? Why not just ""you wish"?
Also "use" sound vague to me; I prefer "specify" here. Also, what "registry"? Do you mean "the language subtag registry"/BP 47 or do you mean this Q&A article?



>= "You should look for a more specific subtag for the language you wish to specify. Unfortunately, this registry {???this article??? the language subtag registry???} does not provide any pointers for doing so."
}



* * *



Decision 5, par 4, first bullet, par 2 ENGLISH



"If you have a good reason, you could use a variant subtag with different subtags, eg. cmn-Latn-pinyin would be a legal to say Mandarin Chinese written with pinyin."


{ COMMENT: ?? "would be a legal to say ???" Where is the noun that must follow an article such as 'a'?? I only see an adjective, 'legal;'
I suppose you mean 'legal way'??

>= "would be a legal {or proper??} way to indicate Mandarin Chinese content written using the pinyin romanization system."


Hope I did not get too wordy.
}


Decision 5, par 4, first bullet, par 3 ENGLISH



"Although zh, bo and Latn are specified, this is a minimum requirement. It is also possible to include other subtags, such as a region subtag, in the language tag (where appropriate), eg. zh-Latn-TW-pinyin."



{ COMMENT for clarity, I'd say (even though you may feel you have said this above),
"Although either zh or bo followed by Latn are specified . .>"
}



Best,



C. E. Whitehead

cewcathar@...

> From: ishida@...
> To: www-international@...
> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:25:29 +0100
> Subject: Article for wide review: Choosing a language tag
>
>
> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags
>
>
> Comments are being sought on this article prior to final release. Please send any comments to www-international@... (subscribe). We expect to publish a final version in one to two weeks.
>
>
>
>
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://rishida.net/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    

[CE Whitehead]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Hi, I previously posted comments on "Choosing a Language Tag" (http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags
); my original post is at the following link:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2009OctDec/0016.html
I'm sending these comments again; if you've already received them, please disregard this message!  (I just thought that maybe they got lost in the shuffle; I realize people might not have had time to go through them!)
Thanks!  If you've not yet received them, they are below:
RE: Article for wide review: Choosing a language tag
This message: [ Message body ] [ Respond ] [ More options ]
Related messages: [ Next message ] [ Previous message ] [ In reply to ]
From: CE Whitehead <cewcathar@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:52:51 -0400
Message-ID: <BLU109-W283D45AC2558DFF55F03DEB3C80@...>
To: <ishida@...>, <www-international@...>
 
Hi, I've read all but the last two sections (on private use and grandfathered subtags) of "Choosing a Language Tag"
( http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags);
most of my comments are on the English, although a few are on content:
 

* * *
 
 
Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 4 (ORDER/ORGANIZATION)
 
"Particular thanks are due to Addison Phillips and Mark Davis, authors of BCP 47, for help in producing this article."
 
{ COMMENT: this is not really part of the answer to the above question although Mark Davis and Addison Phillips have worked hard on BP 47;
If Mark and Addison have worked hard on the whole article, this should be moved to near the top of the article, immediately following the opening paragraph, and before the first question is presented!}
 
Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?" par 7, last sentence (ENGLISH)
 
"Your search will have matched against the Description field. Check that the type of this record is language. What you are looking for is the value in the Subtag field, ie. fr."

{ COMMENT: I would have liked to have seen at least single quotation marks around 'fr'.
Also, is it clear from the last sentence that 'fr' is going to be used in the language tag??
>= "The language tag is formed using the value in the subtag field, which is 'fr'."
}
 
Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 8, sentence 1 (ENGLISH)
 
"The rest of this article will provide advice for choosing primary language and possibly other types of subtag. Note that not all the decisions about how to create a language tag are straightforward. There are circumstances where usage will dictate which of various possibilities you should follow."
 
{ COMMENT: Because there may be more than one subtag following the primary language subtag in a language tag, I think "subtags" should be plural;
also I think that "primary language subtag" might benefit from a definite article since there is one primary language subtag"--thus it is in some sense specific

>=
"The rest of this article will provide advice for choosing the primary language and possibly other types of subtags."
}
 
Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 9 CONTENT

"There are tools available which provide additional help while searching the registry, such as Richard Ishida's Language Subtag Lookup tool."

{COMMENT: this could be more specific (we just discussed these at ietf-languages):
 
for example,
>= "There are tools which search through a copy of the registry for a particular description, etc. . . . "
You might even go on to say, "a reasonably up-to-date copy of the registry. . ."
}

* * *
Decision 1, par 2, first bullet CONTENT
 
"'Often it is not clear which language identifier to use. For example, what most people call Punjabi in Pakistan actually has the code 'lah', and formal name 'Lahnda'.'"
 
{COMMENTS:
??? As you note in your utlity
http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/index.php?find=&lookup=lah&submit=Look+up&list=0&check=
'lah' (lahnda) is a macrolanguage and punjabi as used in Pakistan can get a more specific subtag!
?? or am I confused; lahnda is used widely and not just in Pakistan; punjabi or western panjabi is only used in Pakistan; several other varieties of lahnda are used in Pakistan however but these are not called Punjabi? So is this the best example??
Another example might be Persian-Farsi-Dari: if you search for 'Persian,' you want a specific language subtag, 'pes' probably (identified/described as 'farsi'; I once thought that 'Western Persian' was going to be added as a second description field for 'pes' but I guess this is a can of worms right now and has already been discussed to the fullest extent possible at ietf-languages.; see:
http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2008-December/008715.html
}

* * *

Decision 1, par 2, first bullet, par 2 ENGLISH

"You could look up language information in the SIL Ethnologue and cross-referencing with Wikipedia.

{ COMMENTS:
??? "cross-referencing" has no direct object here but should normally take one; also it's not even clear whether it's the audience of this sentence
or SIL Ethnologue who will be doing the cross-referencing (that is the subject antecedent is not clear)
perhaps because the two verbs ("look up" and "cross-referencing") are not syntactically parallel--which they should be if 'you' is the subject for both!
>= "You could look up language information in the SIL Ethnologue and cross-reference it with information in Wikipedia."
}
 
Decision 1, par 2, second bullet, par 2 PUNCTUATION
 
"For example, ku (Kurdish) is a macrolanguage that encompasses ckb (Central Kurdish), kmr (Northern Kurdish), and sdh (Southern Kurdish),"
 
{ COMMENT:
There should be a full-stop, and not a comma, at the end of the above paragraph.
}
 
Decision 1, par 2, third bullet, par 2 ENGLISH
 
"You should look for a more specific subtag for the language you are wanting to use. Unfortunately, the registry doesn't provide any pointers for this."

{ COMMENT: Awkward; why "you are wanting"? Why not just ""you wish"?
Also "use" sound vague to me; I prefer "specify" here. Also, what "registry"? Do you mean "the language subtag registry"/BP 47 or do you mean this Q&A article?
 
>= "You should look for a more specific subtag for the language you wish to specify. Unfortunately, this registry {???this article??? the language subtag registry???} does not provide any pointers for doing so."
}
 
* * *
 
Decision 5, par 4, first bullet, par 2 ENGLISH
 
"If you have a good reason, you could use a variant subtag with different subtags, eg. cmn-Latn-pinyin would be a legal to say Mandarin Chinese written with pinyin."

{ COMMENT: ?? "would be a legal to say ???" Where is the noun that must follow an article such as 'a'?? I only see an adjective, 'legal;'
I suppose you mean 'legal way'??
>= "would be a legal {or proper??} way to indicate Mandarin Chinese content written using the pinyin romanization system."

Hope I did not get too wordy.
}

Decision 5, par 4, first bullet, par 3 ENGLISH
 
"Although zh, bo and Latn are specified, this is a minimum requirement. It is also possible to include other subtags, such as a region subtag, in the language tag (where appropriate), eg. zh-Latn-TW-pinyin."
 
{ COMMENT for clarity, I'd say (even though you may feel you have said this above),
"Although either zh or bo followed by Latn are specified . .>"
}
 
Best,
 
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@...
> From: ishida@...

> To: www-international@...
> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:25:29 +0100
> Subject: Article for wide review: Choosing a language tag
>
>
> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags
>
>
> Comments are being sought on this article prior to final release. Please send any comments to www-international@... (subscribe). We expect to publish a final version in one to two weeks.
>
>
>
>
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://rishida.net/
>

 

[Richard Ishida]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcathar@...]
> Sent: 12 October 2009 19:53
> To: ishida@...; www-international@...
> Subject: RE: Article for wide review: Choosing a language tag
>
>
>
> Hi, I've read all but the last two sections (on private use and grandfathered
> subtags) of "Choosing a Language Tag"
>
> ( http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags);
>
> most of my comments are on the English, although a few are on content:
>
>
>
>
> * * *
>
>
>
>
>
> Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 4
> (ORDER/ORGANIZATION)
>
>
>
> "Particular thanks are due to Addison Phillips and Mark Davis, authors of BCP
> 47, for help in producing this article."
>
>
>
> { COMMENT: this is not really part of the answer to the above question
> although Mark Davis and Addison Phillips have worked hard on BP 47;
> If Mark and Addison have worked hard on the whole article, this should be
> moved to near the top of the article, immediately following the opening
> paragraph, and before the first question is presented!}
>
>
>
> Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?" par 7, last sentence
> (ENGLISH)
>
>

Moved it rather than tried to explain why I put it there.


>
> "Your search will have matched against the Description field. Check that the
> type of this record is language. What you are looking for is the value in the
> Subtag field, ie. fr."
>
>
> { COMMENT: I would have liked to have seen at least single quotation marks
> around 'fr'.

I prefer to keep with the current approach, used throughout the article.

> Also, is it clear from the last sentence that 'fr' is going to be used in the
> language tag??

I think it is, if you read the earlier text.

> >= "The language tag is formed using the value in the subtag field, which is
> 'fr'."
> }
>
>
>
> Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 8, sentence 1
> (ENGLISH)
>
>
>
> "The rest of this article will provide advice for choosing primary language
> and possibly other types of subtag. Note that not all the decisions about how
> to create a language tag are straightforward. There are circumstances where
> usage will dictate which of various possibilities you should follow."
>
>
>
> { COMMENT: Because there may be more than one subtag following the
> primary language subtag in a language tag, I think "subtags" should be
> plural;
> also I think that "primary language subtag" might benefit from a definite
> article since there is one primary language subtag"--thus it is in some sense
> specific
>
>
> >=
> "The rest of this article will provide advice for choosing the primary language
> and possibly other types of subtags."
> }

Changed to
The rest of this article will provide advice for choosing primary language subtags and, where needed, other types of subtag.

>
>
>
> Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 9 CONTENT
>
>
> "There are tools available which provide additional help while searching the
> registry, such as Richard Ishida's Language Subtag Lookup tool."
>
>
> {COMMENT: this could be more specific (we just discussed these at ietf-
> languages):
>
>
>
> for example,
>
> >= "There are tools which search through a copy of the registry for a
> particular description, etc. . . . "
>
> You might even go on to say, "a reasonably up-to-date copy of the
> registry. . ."

My tool provides more help than just searching for a particular description

>
> }
>
>
> * * *
> Decision 1, par 2, first bullet CONTENT
>
>
>
> "'Often it is not clear which language identifier to use. For example, what
> most people call Punjabi in Pakistan actually has the code 'lah', and formal
> name 'Lahnda'.'"
>
>
>
> {COMMENTS:
> ??? As you note in your utlity
> http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/index.php?find=&lookup=lah&submit=Look+
> up&list=0&check=
>
> 'lah' (lahnda) is a macrolanguage and punjabi as used in Pakistan can get a
> more specific subtag!
> ?? or am I confused; lahnda is used widely and not just in Pakistan; punjabi or
> western panjabi is only used in Pakistan; several other varieties of lahnda are
> used in Pakistan however but these are not called Punjabi? So is this the best
> example??
>
> Another example might be Persian-Farsi-Dari: if you search for 'Persian,' you
> want a specific language subtag, 'pes' probably (identified/described as
> 'farsi'; I once thought that 'Western Persian' was going to be added as a
> second description field for 'pes' but I guess this is a can of worms right now
> and has already been discussed to the fullest extent possible at ietf-
> languages.; see:
>
> http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2008-
> December/008715.html
>
> }
>
>
> * * *
>
>
> Decision 1, par 2, first bullet, par 2 ENGLISH
>
>
> "You could look up language information in the SIL Ethnologue and cross-
> referencing with Wikipedia.
>
>
> { COMMENTS:
> ??? "cross-referencing" has no direct object here but should normally take
> one; also it's not even clear whether it's the audience of this sentence
> or SIL Ethnologue who will be doing the cross-referencing (that is the subject
> antecedent is not clear)
> perhaps because the two verbs ("look up" and "cross-referencing") are not
> syntactically parallel--which they should be if 'you' is the subject for both!
> >= "You could look up language information in the SIL Ethnologue and
> cross-reference it with information in Wikipedia."
> }
>

Fixed.

>
>
> Decision 1, par 2, second bullet, par 2 PUNCTUATION
>
>
>
> "For example, ku (Kurdish) is a macrolanguage that encompasses ckb
> (Central Kurdish), kmr (Northern Kurdish), and sdh (Southern Kurdish),"
>
>
>
> { COMMENT:
>
> There should be a full-stop, and not a comma, at the end of the above
> paragraph.
> }
>

Fixed.

>
>
> Decision 1, par 2, third bullet, par 2 ENGLISH
>
>
>
> "You should look for a more specific subtag for the language you are
> wanting to use. Unfortunately, the registry doesn't provide any pointers for
> this."
>
>
> { COMMENT: Awkward; why "you are wanting"? Why not just ""you wish"?
> Also "use" sound vague to me; I prefer "specify" here. Also, what "registry"?
> Do you mean "the language subtag registry"/BP 47 or do you mean this Q&A
> article?

?? This article isn't a registry?

>
>
>
> >= "You should look for a more specific subtag for the language you wish to
> specify. Unfortunately, this registry {???this article??? the language subtag
> registry???} does not provide any pointers for doing so."
> }

Changed to
You should look for a more specific subtag for the language you are interested in

>
>
>
> * * *
>
>
>
> Decision 5, par 4, first bullet, par 2 ENGLISH
>
>
>
> "If you have a good reason, you could use a variant subtag with different
> subtags, eg. cmn-Latn-pinyin would be a legal to say Mandarin Chinese
> written with pinyin."
>
>
> { COMMENT: ?? "would be a legal to say ???" Where is the noun that must
> follow an article such as 'a'?? I only see an adjective, 'legal;'
> I suppose you mean 'legal way'??
>
> >= "would be a legal {or proper??} way to indicate Mandarin Chinese content
> written using the pinyin romanization system."
>
>
> Hope I did not get too wordy.
> }

Fixed.

>
>
> Decision 5, par 4, first bullet, par 3 ENGLISH
>
>
>
> "Although zh, bo and Latn are specified, this is a minimum requirement. It is
> also possible to include other subtags, such as a region subtag, in the
> language tag (where appropriate), eg. zh-Latn-TW-pinyin."
>
>
>
> { COMMENT for clarity, I'd say (even though you may feel you have said this
> above),
> "Although either zh or bo followed by Latn are specified . .>"
> }

I'd rather leave as is.



Thank you.
RI

>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> C. E. Whitehead
>
> cewcathar@...
>
> > From: ishida@...
> > To: www-international@...
> > Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:25:29 +0100
> > Subject: Article for wide review: Choosing a language tag
> >
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags
> >
> >
> > Comments are being sought on this article prior to final release. Please
> send any comments to www-international@... (subscribe). We expect to
> publish a final version in one to two weeks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ============
> > Richard Ishida
> > Internationalization Lead
> > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > http://rishida.net/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

[CE Whitehead]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Hi.  Sorry for my wordy comments; and yes, thanks for your search utility; it is fast.
> From: ishida@...

> To: cewcathar@...; www-international@...
> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:00:00 +0000
> Subject: RE: Article for wide review: Choosing a language tag
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcathar@...]
> > Sent: 12 October 2009 19:53
> > To: ishida@...; www-international@...
> > Subject: RE: Article for wide review: Choosing a language tag
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, I've read all but the last two sections (on private use and grandfathered
> > subtags) of "Choosing a Language Tag"
> >
> > ( http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags);
> >
> > most of my comments are on the English, although a few are on content:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > * * *
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 4
> > (ORDER/ORGANIZATION)
> >
> >
> >
> > "Particular thanks are due to Addison Phillips and Mark Davis, authors of BCP
> > 47, for help in producing this article."
> >
> >
> >
> > { COMMENT: this is not really part of the answer to the above question
> > although Mark Davis and Addison Phillips have worked hard on BP 47;
> > If Mark and Addison have worked hard on the whole article, this should be
> > moved to near the top of the article, immediately following the opening
> > paragraph, and before the first question is presented!}
> >
> >
> >
> > Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?" par 7, last sentence
> > (ENGLISH)
> >
> >
>
> Moved it rather than tried to explain why I put it there.

 
Sorry if I aggravated you here.

>
>
> >
> > "Your search will have matched against the Description field. Check that the
> > type of this record is language. What you are looking for is the value in the
> > Subtag field, ie. fr."
> >
> >
> > { COMMENT: I would have liked to have seen at least single quotation marks
> > around 'fr'.
>
> I prefer to keep with the current approach, used throughout the article.
>
> > Also, is it clear from the last sentence that 'fr' is going to be used in the
> > language tag??
>
> I think it is, if you read the earlier text.

I'll look at this again.

>
> > >= "The language tag is formed using the value in the subtag field, which is
> > 'fr'."
> > }
> >
> >
> >
> > Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 8, sentence 1
> > (ENGLISH)
> >
> >
> >
> > "The rest of this article will provide advice for choosing primary language
> > and possibly other types of subtag. Note that not all the decisions about how
> > to create a language tag are straightforward. There are circumstances where
> > usage will dictate which of various possibilities you should follow."
> >
> >
> >
> > { COMMENT: Because there may be more than one subtag following the
> > primary language subtag in a language tag, I think "subtags" should be
> > plural;
> > also I think that "primary language subtag" might benefit from a definite
> > article since there is one primary language subtag"--thus it is in some sense
> > specific
> >
> >
> > >=
> > "The rest of this article will provide advice for choosing the primary language
> > and possibly other types of subtags."
> > }
>
> Changed to
> The rest of this article will provide advice for choosing primary language subtags and, where needed, other types of subtag.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Answer to Question at top, "Which language tag is . . . ?", par 9 CONTENT
> >
> >
> > "There are tools available which provide additional help while searching the
> > registry, such as Richard Ishida's Language Subtag Lookup tool."
> >
> >
> > {COMMENT: this could be more specific (we just discussed these at ietf-
> > languages):
> >
> >
> >
> > for example,
> >
> > >= "There are tools which search through a copy of the registry for a
> > particular description, etc. . . . "
> >
> > You might even go on to say, "a reasonably up-to-date copy of the
> > registry. . ."
>
> My tool provides more help than just searching for a particular description
>

 

Yes, I love your tool because it is so fast to search; but it is not updated every night is it?
That's all I was saying.  I realize that the size of the registry makes updating your copy  of it the more cumbersome
(& I should not talk as I have a ton of updates to install on my computer--I'm going to update tonight though).
 
Best,
 
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@...

> >
> > }
> >
> >
> > * * *
> > Decision 1, par 2, first bullet CONTENT
> >
> >
> >
> > "'Often it is not clear which language identifier to use. For example, what
> > most people call Punjabi in Pakistan actually has the code 'lah', and formal
> > name 'Lahnda'.'"
> >
> >
> >
> > {COMMENTS:
> > ??? As you note in your utlity
> > http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/index.php?find=&lookup=lah&submit=Look+
> > up&list=0&check=
> >
> > 'lah' (lahnda) is a macrolanguage and punjabi as used in Pakistan can get a
> > more specific subtag!
> > ?? or am I confused; lahnda is used widely and not just in Pakistan; punjabi or
> > western panjabi is only used in Pakistan; several other varieties of lahnda are
> > used in Pakistan however but these are not called Punjabi? So is this the best
> > example??
> >
> > Another example might be Persian-Farsi-Dari: if you search for 'Persian,' you
> > want a specific language subtag, 'pes' probably (identified/described as
> > 'farsi'; I once thought that 'Western Persian' was going to be added as a
> > second description field for 'pes' but I guess this is a can of worms right now
> > and has already been discussed to the fullest extent possible at ietf-
> > languages.; see:
> >
> > http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2008-
> > December/008715.html
> >
> > }
> >
> >
> > * * *
> >
> >
> > Decision 1, par 2, first bullet, par 2 ENGLISH
> >
> >
> > "You could look up language information in the SIL Ethnologue and cross-
> > referencing with Wikipedia.
> >
> >
> > { COMMENTS:
> > ??? "cross-referencing" has no direct object here but should normally take
> > one; also it's not even clear whether it's the audience of this sentence
> > or SIL Ethnologue who will be doing the cross-referencing (that is the subject
> > antecedent is not clear)
> > perhaps because the two verbs ("look up" and "cross-referencing") are not
> > syntactically parallel--which they should be if 'you' is the subject for both!
> > >= "You could look up language information in the SIL Ethnologue and
> > cross-reference it with information in Wikipedia."
> > }
> >
>
> Fixed.
>
> >
> >
> > Decision 1, par 2, second bullet, par 2 PUNCTUATION
> >
> >
> >
> > "For example, ku (Kurdish) is a macrolanguage that encompasses ckb
> > (Central Kurdish), kmr (Northern Kurdish), and sdh (Southern Kurdish),"
> >
> >
> >
> > { COMMENT:
> >
> > There should be a full-stop, and not a comma, at the end of the above
> > paragraph.
> > }
> >
>
> Fixed.
>
> >
> >
> > Decision 1, par 2, third bullet, par 2 ENGLISH
> >
> >
> >
> > "You should look for a more specific subtag for the language you are
> > wanting to use. Unfortunately, the registry doesn't provide any pointers for
> > this."
> >
> >
> > { COMMENT: Awkward; why "you are wanting"? Why not just ""you wish"?
> > Also "use" sound vague to me; I prefer "specify" here. Also, what "registry"?
> > Do you mean "the language subtag registry"/BP 47 or do you mean this Q&A
> > article?
>
> ?? This article isn't a registry?
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >= "You should look for a more specific subtag for the language you wish to
> > specify. Unfortunately, this registry {???this article??? the language subtag
> > registry???} does not provide any pointers for doing so."
> > }
>
> Changed to
> You should look for a more specific subtag for the language you are interested in

 

>
> >
> >
> >
> > * * *
> >
> >
> >
> > Decision 5, par 4, first bullet, par 2 ENGLISH
> >
> >
> >
> > "If you have a good reason, you could use a variant subtag with different
> > subtags, eg. cmn-Latn-pinyin would be a legal to say Mandarin Chinese
> > written with pinyin."
> >
> >
> > { COMMENT: ?? "would be a legal to say ???" Where is the noun that must
> > follow an article such as 'a'?? I only see an adjective, 'legal;'
> > I suppose you mean 'legal way'??
> >
> > >= "would be a legal {or proper??} way to indicate Mandarin Chinese content
> > written using the pinyin romanization system."
> >
> >
> > Hope I did not get too wordy.
> > }
>
> Fixed.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Decision 5, par 4, first bullet, par 3 ENGLISH
> >
> >
> >
> > "Although zh, bo and Latn are specified, this is a minimum requirement. It is
> > also possible to include other subtags, such as a region subtag, in the
> > language tag (where appropriate), eg. zh-Latn-TW-pinyin."
> >
> >
> >
> > { COMMENT for clarity, I'd say (even though you may feel you have said this
> > above),
> > "Although either zh or bo followed by Latn are specified . .>"
> > }
>
> I'd rather leave as is.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
> RI
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> >
> >
> > C. E. Whitehead
> >
> > cewcathar@...
> >
> > > From: ishida@...
> > > To: www-international@...
> > > Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:25:29 +0100
> > > Subject: Article for wide review: Choosing a language tag
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags
> > >
> > >
> > > Comments are being sought on this article prior to final release. Please
> > send any comments to www-international@... (subscribe). We expect to
> > publish a final version in one to two weeks.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ============
> > > Richard Ishida
> > > Internationalization Lead
> > > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> > >
> > > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > > http://rishida.net/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>

[Richard Ishida]

John,

Thanks for these comments. Notes below.  Changes done with change marks at
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags 


============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/International/
http://rishida.net/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-international-request@... [mailto:www-international-
> request@...] On Behalf Of John Cowan
> Sent: 10 October 2009 01:18
> To: www-international@...
> Subject: Re: Article for wide review: Choosing a language tag
>
> > http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags
> >
> > Comments are being sought on this article prior to final release. Please
> > send any comments to www-international@... (subscribe). We expect
> > to publish a final version in one to two weeks.
>
> In Decision 1, the section on macrolanguages should explain that
> macrolanguage subtags may be used in the same way, and with the same
> considerations, as collection subtags.  This is quite apart from their
> use with extlang subtags.

Done. (And introduced Collections before, rather than after, to help with
that.)

>
> In Decision 2:
>
> a) It's a mistake to conflate "[p]rimary language subtags that can be
> used with extended language subtags" with macrolanguages.  Only six
> ('ar', 'kok', 'ms', 'sw', 'uz', 'zh') of the 58 current macrolanguages,
> plus 'sgn', fall into this category.  Find or invent another term to
> avoid confusion.

Hopefully this is now fixed.

>
> b) Explain clearly that the extlang tags are always identical to their
> primary language subtags, so "kok-gom" can be replaced by "gom" even if
> you don't know what 'kok' or 'gom' mean.

Done.

>
> In Decision 4, for "regional areas", which is vague, read "regions
> containing more than one country" or "multinational regions".

Done.

Cheers,
RI
>
> --
> And it was said that ever after, if any                 John Cowan
> man looked in that Stone, unless he had a               cowan@...
> great strength of will to turn it to other
http://ccil.org/~cowan
> purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering
> in flame.   --"The Pyre of Denethor"