Audio software crisis in Linux? Or am I doing something wrong?

[Fabricio Rocha]

Dearest ones, what has been happening to the famous audio apps for Linux? I feel that there is something very, very bad going on without notice. Three years ago, I was able to have a simple song of mine recorded in 2 hours without problems. Now, I can't simply start doing things!

Firstly, some data about my system:

AMD Sempron 3000+, 1GB RAM
SoundBlaster Audigy 2ZS soundcard
Debian Lenny with some unstable and testing updates
Kernel 2.6.31.1, vanilla from kernel.org, compiled with all that realtime stuff
ALSA 1.0.21-1
JACK 0.116.2+svn3592-3
Ardour 2.8-1
Rosegarden 1.7.3-1
Audacity 1.3.9-6
QJackCtl 0.3.4-1
Hydrogen 0.9.3-7

        Okay. This can be enough for now, maybe you find that I have a buggy version of a certain software which might be the cause of the problems. Now let me show what these problems are:

- JACK running, then I start Audacity: kaboom! Jack has a lot of xruns and is automatically closed.

- If I have Hydrogen pre-configured to use JACK, I start JACK then I try to start Hydrogen: it segfaults. I have to stop JACK, then start Hydrogen, then start JACK, then click on Preferences and "restart audio driver" in Hydrogen.

- JACK, Hydrogen and Ardour running, then I create a new track in Ardour, and set it up to record from the default input. When I click on Ardour's Record button (this one alongside the Stop button), it becomes pretty unresponsive, CPU usage rockets to 100%, JACK stops automatically after a bunch of xruns, and I have to close Ardour with Alt+F4. The problem did not happen once, when I recorded an audio track using Hydrogen's output as the input for the track.

- JACK and Rosegarden running, trying to record an audio track, or simply using it for MIDI: JACK will suddenly stop some time, then I'll have to restart Rosegarden for being able to use it for audio.

- Recording or editing audio in Audacity without JACK: often Audacity will become quite unresponsive after pressing "Stop". Also, the input signal will suddenly disappear if I switch on and off the various input sources in Gnome's Volume Control (in the "Recording" tab). The input will stay silent until I move some of the volume sliders up and down.

        Well, enough again. I strongly suspect that there is a serious problem with this version of JACK, because it is in most situations that are troublesome. It's a pity that the Debian repositories won't give me more than two (already tested) versions of libjack. But it might also be a problem with the 2.6.31.1 kernel sound drivers, or with the current version of ALSA, or simply with a certain configuration. I had similar problems in the few days I tried to use UbuntuStudio, and I switched to Debian Lenny hoping that the headaches would be gone. But for now I feel that, in spite of of all the logic, things got WORSE in the three years I have been away from recording.

        So, please, what do you suggest? Is there currently a known problem with JACK or other fundamental piece of Linux sound software? Or is this a problem in my system?

Thank you and regards!

Fabricio Rocha
Brasilia, Brazil

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[Christopher Cherrett]

It is a problem with your system. I would go after jack or your kernel
with realtime. Not all kernels work well with realtime. They need to be
tested. I know 2.6.24 was good and there is a good current kernel
vanilla but I am not running that myself

Anyhow, test jack settings and a new kernel if necessary.

My system runs very stable.

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: [Rosegarden-user] Audio software crisis in Linux? Or am I
doing    something wrong?
From: Fabricio Rocha <rocha_fabricio@...>
To: linux-audio-user@...
Cc: rosegarden-user@..., ardour-users@...
Date: 11/04/09 20:35

> Dearest ones, what has been happening to the famous audio apps for Linux? I feel that there is something very, very bad going on without notice. Three years ago, I was able to have a simple song of mine recorded in 2 hours without problems. Now, I can't simply start doing things!
>
> Firstly, some data about my system:
>
> AMD Sempron 3000+, 1GB RAM
> SoundBlaster Audigy 2ZS soundcard
> Debian Lenny with some unstable and testing updates
> Kernel 2.6.31.1, vanilla from kernel.org, compiled with all that realtime stuff
> ALSA 1.0.21-1
> JACK 0.116.2+svn3592-3
> Ardour 2.8-1
> Rosegarden 1.7.3-1
> Audacity 1.3.9-6
> QJackCtl 0.3.4-1
> Hydrogen 0.9.3-7
>
> Okay. This can be enough for now, maybe you find that I have a buggy version of a certain software which might be the cause of the problems. Now let me show what these problems are:
>
> - JACK running, then I start Audacity: kaboom! Jack has a lot of xruns and is automatically closed.
>
> - If I have Hydrogen pre-configured to use JACK, I start JACK then I try to start Hydrogen: it segfaults. I have to stop JACK, then start Hydrogen, then start JACK, then click on Preferences and "restart audio driver" in Hydrogen.
>
> - JACK, Hydrogen and Ardour running, then I create a new track in Ardour, and set it up to record from the default input. When I click on Ardour's Record button (this one alongside the Stop button), it becomes pretty unresponsive, CPU usage rockets to 100%, JACK stops automatically after a bunch of xruns, and I have to close Ardour with Alt+F4. The problem did not happen once, when I recorded an audio track using Hydrogen's output as the input for the track.
>
> - JACK and Rosegarden running, trying to record an audio track, or simply using it for MIDI: JACK will suddenly stop some time, then I'll have to restart Rosegarden for being able to use it for audio.
>
> - Recording or editing audio in Audacity without JACK: often Audacity will become quite unresponsive after pressing "Stop". Also, the input signal will suddenly disappear if I switch on and off the various input sources in Gnome's Volume Control (in the "Recording" tab). The input will stay silent until I move some of the volume sliders up and down.
>
> Well, enough again. I strongly suspect that there is a serious problem with this version of JACK, because it is in most situations that are troublesome. It's a pity that the Debian repositories won't give me more than two (already tested) versions of libjack. But it might also be a problem with the 2.6.31.1 kernel sound drivers, or with the current version of ALSA, or simply with a certain configuration. I had similar problems in the few days I tried to use UbuntuStudio, and I switched to Debian Lenny hoping that the headaches would be gone. But for now I feel that, in spite of of all the logic, things got WORSE in the three years I have been away from recording.
>
> So, please, what do you suggest? Is there currently a known problem with JACK or other fundamental piece of Linux sound software? Or is this a problem in my system?
>
> Thank you and regards!
>
> Fabricio Rocha
> Brasilia, Brazil
>
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[Tomasz Grzelak]

Hello,

I am sure problems are within your setup, not in those apps.
Like already answered by Christopher, I would focus on a good real-time kernel, JACK version, and additionally your IRQs and their priorities.
I have been using custom 2.6.29.6 with rt patches for months, and I find it very stable (I would avoid 2.6.31.1 - it's too early version, and probably not tested well, especially considering RT patches).
I would also suggest an audio dedicated distribution or at least some scripts which set up IRQs and their priorities properly.

I have always used JACK 1 from svn, and never had problems with it so far (I have a habit to compile the software I use (Ardour, Hydrogen, Rosegarden) every 2 or 3 month, and haven't noticed any serious problems ever, but it's up to you of course what versions of applications you want to use).

Good luck!
Tomek

2009/11/5 Fabricio Rocha <rocha_fabricio@...>

Dearest ones, what has been happening to the famous audio apps for Linux? I feel that there is something very, very bad going on without notice. Three years ago, I was able to have a simple song of mine recorded in 2 hours without problems. Now, I can't simply start doing things!

Firstly, some data about my system:

AMD Sempron 3000+, 1GB RAM
SoundBlaster Audigy 2ZS soundcard
Debian Lenny with some unstable and testing updates
Kernel 2.6.31.1, vanilla from kernel.org, compiled with all that realtime stuff
ALSA 1.0.21-1
JACK 0.116.2+svn3592-3
Ardour 2.8-1
Rosegarden 1.7.3-1
Audacity 1.3.9-6
QJackCtl 0.3.4-1
Hydrogen 0.9.3-7

       Okay. This can be enough for now, maybe you find that I have a buggy version of a certain software which might be the cause of the problems. Now let me show what these problems are:

- JACK running, then I start Audacity: kaboom! Jack has a lot of xruns and is automatically closed.

- If I have Hydrogen pre-configured to use JACK, I start JACK then I try to start Hydrogen: it segfaults. I have to stop JACK, then start Hydrogen, then start JACK, then click on Preferences and "restart audio driver" in Hydrogen.

- JACK, Hydrogen and Ardour running, then I create a new track in Ardour, and set it up to record from the default input. When I click on Ardour's Record button (this one alongside the Stop button), it becomes pretty unresponsive, CPU usage rockets to 100%, JACK stops automatically after a bunch of xruns, and I have to close Ardour with Alt+F4. The problem did not happen once, when I recorded an audio track using Hydrogen's output as the input for the track.

- JACK and Rosegarden running, trying to record an audio track, or simply using it for MIDI: JACK will suddenly stop some time, then I'll have to restart Rosegarden for being able to use it for audio.

- Recording or editing audio in Audacity without JACK: often Audacity will become quite unresponsive after pressing "Stop". Also, the input signal will suddenly disappear if I switch on and off the various input sources in Gnome's Volume Control (in the "Recording" tab). The input will stay silent until I move some of the volume sliders up and down.

       Well, enough again. I strongly suspect that there is a serious problem with this version of JACK, because it is in most situations that are troublesome. It's a pity that the Debian repositories won't give me more than two (already tested) versions of libjack. But it might also be a problem with the 2.6.31.1 kernel sound drivers, or with the current version of ALSA, or simply with a certain configuration. I had similar problems in the few days I tried to use UbuntuStudio, and I switched to Debian Lenny hoping that the headaches would be gone. But for now I feel that, in spite of of all the logic, things got WORSE in the three years I have been away from recording.

       So, please, what do you suggest? Is there currently a known problem with JACK or other fundamental piece of Linux sound software? Or is this a problem in my system?

Thank you and regards!

Fabricio Rocha
Brasilia, Brazil

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[wg2002a]

> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:35:20 -0200
> From: Fabricio Rocha <rocha_fabricio@...>
>
> Firstly, some data about my system:
>
> AMD Sempron 3000+, 1GB RAM
> SoundBlaster Audigy 2ZS soundcard
> Debian Lenny with some unstable and testing updates
> Kernel 2.6.31.1, vanilla from kernel.org, compiled with all
> that realtime stuff
> ALSA 1.0.21-1
> JACK 0.116.2+svn3592-3
> Ardour 2.8-1
> Rosegarden 1.7.3-1
> Audacity 1.3.9-6
> QJackCtl 0.3.4-1
> Hydrogen 0.9.3-7

You didn't say if you configure the system for realtime, just compiling the kernel with realtime stuff doesn't make the system use it properly by defalt.

Also, I use only the vanilla kernel with "high resolution timer" withwout any real-time patch.  I have not use any separate "realtime-patch" for the kernel for some 18-24 months, or more.  Using Sidux, which has "high resolution timer" compiled-in with the kernel by default, it saves me much time compiling the kernel.

I still need to configure the sytem by tweaking a couple of files:

   /etc/security/limits.conf  , or  /etc/security/limits.d/*

and

    /etc/sysctl.conf

You can try to just use qjackctl/jack, aplaymidi with your SoundBlaster card and make sure it works first.



>     Okay. This can be enough for now, maybe
> you find that I have a buggy version of a certain software
> which might be the cause of the problems. Now let me show
> what these problems are:
>
> - JACK running, then I start Audacity: kaboom! Jack has a
> lot of xruns and is automatically closed.

That may be a problem that the application takes too long to communicatte with JACK.

Increase qjackctl/jacd "Timeout (msec)" parameter in qjackctl, or "jackd -d 2000", or "jackd -d 1000" may help with the disconnection, or segfault problem.

Xrun's are more likely because qjackctl/jacd "Frames/Period" parameter being too small, or configuration problem in /etc/security/limits.conf, /etc/sysctl.conf (mis-spell, perhaps, I did that myself one time).


>     So, please, what do you suggest? Is
> there currently a known problem with JACK or other
> fundamental piece of Linux sound software? Or is this a
> problem in my system?

The other problems, I don't know for sure since I don't normally use those apps.

Have you tried running from a liveCD of Musix, PureDyne, 64Studio... ?  These liveCD's are Debian based and are kept fairly up to date.  They are music oriented and has all the music related apps already installed and configured for you to try out on your hardware without having to install, yet allow you to install to your hard drive if you so choose.

If one of these liveCD's work fine, you can learn from reading their configuration scripts, or menu settings and adapt to your own Debian setup, too.  Now I install from Sidux liveCD (not music oriented, but have High Resolution Timer enabled in the kernel, then use apt-get to get any music apps from Debian Sid/Unstable respository.  I have to say the configuration info I learned from Musix liveCD several years ago was much appreciated, if not saying invaluable.

Jimmy



     

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[Fabricio Rocha]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Updates to everyone who tried to help:

I have compiled kernel 2.6.29.6 with the famous Ingo Molnar -rt patch (I have been using the vanilla realtime, "preemptible kernel" option for a while, thinking that it was already all the realtime stuff officially integrated to the kernel). But the problems persisted and I did not knew what else to do. There is also no sign of news in JACK world, nor something too old, so it seemed to me that if there was a real bug in JACK, I would not be the only one to complain.

Playing around with the configurations, I was able to surpass the problem I had with Hydrogen segfaulting at start when JACK is running. Starting Hydrogen from console I could see lots of ALSA Midi errors prior to the segfault. Went to Hydrogen's Preferences dialog, MIDI System tab and changed the "Input" combobox to "QJackCtl". Also, I found that I had QJackCtl configured with the "MIDI driver" combobox set to "seq". After changing this to "none", Hydrogen was able to start correctly under JACK. But I am still unaware of what exactly did these changes mean and the consequences of them on running Hydrogen with other softwares...

Also, I have to tell that after these changes I was also able to normally record audio in Ardour while Hydrogen was playing along. I could also record the Hydrogen output as a track. Cheers. A small step for an amateur musician, an even smaller step for the music humanity! :)

I tried to downgrade ALSA to 1.0.17 and test Audacity while JACK was running. The problem persists whatever I do: while loading Audacity, I get lots of xruns until JACK and QJackCtl are automatically killed (sometimes Audacity dies as well). Starting Audacity from console, I got these messages:

Expression 'err != ETIMEDOUT' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1009
Expression 'result' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1029
Expression 'AddStream( stream )' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1305
Expression 'err != ETIMEDOUT' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1009
Expression 'result' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1029
Expression 'AddStream( stream )' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1305

It seems that there is a bug in Audacity, isn't it?


Thanks to everyone!

Fabricio Rocha
Brasilia, Brasil

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or am
I    doing something wrong?
From: Fabricio Rocha <rocha_fabricio@...>
To: Tomasz Grzelak <tgrzelak@...>
Cc: linux-audio-user@...,
ardour-users@..., rosegarden-user@...
Date: 11/05/09 20:31

> Updates to everyone who tried to help:
>
> I have compiled kernel 2.6.29.6 with the famous Ingo Molnar -rt patch
> (I have been using the vanilla realtime, "preemptible kernel" option
> for a while, thinking that it was already all the realtime stuff
> officially integrated to the kernel). But the problems persisted and I
> did not knew what else to do. There is also no sign of news in JACK
> world, nor something too old, so it seemed to me that if there was a
> real bug in JACK, I would not be the only one to complain.
>
> Playing around with the configurations, I was able to surpass the
> problem I had with Hydrogen segfaulting at start when JACK is running.
> Starting Hydrogen from console I could see lots of ALSA Midi errors
> prior to the segfault. Went to Hydrogen's Preferences dialog, MIDI
> System tab and changed the "Input" combobox to "QJackCtl". Also, I
> found that I had QJackCtl configured with the "MIDI driver" combobox
> set to "seq". After changing this to "none", Hydrogen was able to
> start correctly under JACK. But I am still unaware of what exactly did
> these changes mean and the consequences of them on running Hydrogen
> with other softwares...
>
> Also, I have to tell that after these changes I was also able to
> normally record audio in Ardour while Hydrogen was playing along. I
> could also record the Hydrogen output as a track. Cheers. A small step
> for an amateur musician, an even smaller step for the music humanity! :)
>
> I tried to downgrade ALSA to 1.0.17 and test Audacity while JACK was
> running. The problem persists whatever I do: while loading Audacity, I
> get lots of xruns until JACK and QJackCtl are automatically killed
> (sometimes Audacity dies as well). Starting Audacity from console, I
> got these messages:
>
> Expression 'err != ETIMEDOUT' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c',
> line: 1009
> Expression 'result' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1029
> Expression 'AddStream( stream )' failed in
> 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1305
> Expression 'err != ETIMEDOUT' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c',
> line: 1009
> Expression 'result' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1029
> Expression 'AddStream( stream )' failed in
> 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1305
>
> It seems that there is a bug in Audacity, isn't it?
>
>
> Thanks to everyone!
>
> Fabricio Rocha
> Brasilia, Brasil
>
>
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Not to be a jerk, but why audacity? Why not use ardour?


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[Tomasz Grzelak]

I would rather ask 'why not Rezound instead of Audacity'? Try Rezound to see if you still get xruns.
Another question - are you sure everything's fine with your hardware? besides, IRQs and their priorities are really important thing, so it's another case you should focus on.
And do you have an internal soundcard (on a pci) or a firewire one? In the second case, some firewire chipsets are known to not behave well, and such problems are quite common when using such hardware (afaik they are via chipsets)

2009/11/6 Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or am I    doing something wrong?
From: Fabricio Rocha <rocha_fabricio@...>
To: Tomasz Grzelak <tgrzelak@...>
Cc: linux-audio-user@..., ardour-users@..., rosegarden-user@...
Date: 11/05/09 20:31

Updates to everyone who tried to help:

I have compiled kernel 2.6.29.6 with the famous Ingo Molnar -rt patch (I have been using the vanilla realtime, "preemptible kernel" option for a while, thinking that it was already all the realtime stuff officially integrated to the kernel). But the problems persisted and I did not knew what else to do. There is also no sign of news in JACK world, nor something too old, so it seemed to me that if there was a real bug in JACK, I would not be the only one to complain.

Playing around with the configurations, I was able to surpass the problem I had with Hydrogen segfaulting at start when JACK is running. Starting Hydrogen from console I could see lots of ALSA Midi errors prior to the segfault. Went to Hydrogen's Preferences dialog, MIDI System tab and changed the "Input" combobox to "QJackCtl". Also, I found that I had QJackCtl configured with the "MIDI driver" combobox set to "seq". After changing this to "none", Hydrogen was able to start correctly under JACK. But I am still unaware of what exactly did these changes mean and the consequences of them on running Hydrogen with other softwares...

Also, I have to tell that after these changes I was also able to normally record audio in Ardour while Hydrogen was playing along. I could also record the Hydrogen output as a track. Cheers. A small step for an amateur musician, an even smaller step for the music humanity! :)

I tried to downgrade ALSA to 1.0.17 and test Audacity while JACK was running. The problem persists whatever I do: while loading Audacity, I get lots of xruns until JACK and QJackCtl are automatically killed (sometimes Audacity dies as well). Starting Audacity from console, I got these messages:

Expression 'err != ETIMEDOUT' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1009
Expression 'result' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1029
Expression 'AddStream( stream )' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1305
Expression 'err != ETIMEDOUT' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1009
Expression 'result' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1029
Expression 'AddStream( stream )' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1305

It seems that there is a bug in Audacity, isn't it?


Thanks to everyone!

Fabricio Rocha
Brasilia, Brasil


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Not to be a jerk, but why audacity? Why not use ardour?

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[James Warden]

FWIW:

I use the latest vanilla kernel 2.6.31.5, without any RT patch.
I have my soundcard (RME HDSP) on a non shared interrupt.
I use jack2 (same API as jack1) and for me, the magic comes from the -S option jack2 comes with (jack1 does not have it).

When I use -S, I do not see ANY xrun at all, at any latency, at any DSP load (even when maxed out). And this is without the kernel RT patch. Without this option, I sometimes see an xrun at very low lat.

But I do use jack in RT mode, which is confusingly not exactly the same thing: one is about access to a certain scheduling priority as non root - i.e. the jackd -R option (which will depend on your /etc/security/limits.conf configuration), the other is a kernel optimization that makes the kernel operate close to a hard realtime system - i.e. the so-called RT kernel patch.  

I have found that the latest vanilla kernels can do very well without the RT patch provided that :
- the kernel is configured with the high-res timer
- you use jack2 with the -S option
- your hardware is well configured (unshared IRQ, semi-pro to pro audio h/w with a well written ALSA or other kernel driver)
- you have access to priviledged process scheduling (so-called RT mode or SCHED_RR - or is it SCHED_FF ? whatever).
- and something that did a bit of a difference for me as well: your GPU (graphics) is well behaving. I switched from an onboard graphics chip (Intel) to a PCI express nVidia (GeForce 9500 GT) and am using the proprietary driver. It works really good, with or without composite effects in a KDE4.3 environment, and is not interfering with the audio processing at all.

(FYI, my system is a 32bit intel based h/w).

Cheers,
J.

--- On Thu, 11/5/09, jimmy <wg2002a@...> wrote:

> From: jimmy <wg2002a@...>
> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] Audio software crisis in Linux? Or am I doing something wrong?
> To: rosegarden-user@...
> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 9:20 AM
> > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:35:20
> -0200
> > From: Fabricio Rocha <rocha_fabricio@...>
> >
> > Firstly, some data about my system:
> >
> > AMD Sempron 3000+, 1GB RAM
> > SoundBlaster Audigy 2ZS soundcard
> > Debian Lenny with some unstable and testing updates
> > Kernel 2.6.31.1, vanilla from kernel.org, compiled
> with all
> > that realtime stuff
> > ALSA 1.0.21-1
> > JACK 0.116.2+svn3592-3
> > Ardour 2.8-1
> > Rosegarden 1.7.3-1
> > Audacity 1.3.9-6
> > QJackCtl 0.3.4-1
> > Hydrogen 0.9.3-7
>
> You didn't say if you configure the system for realtime,
> just compiling the kernel with realtime stuff doesn't make
> the system use it properly by defalt.
>
> Also, I use only the vanilla kernel with "high resolution
> timer" withwout any real-time patch.  I have not use
> any separate "realtime-patch" for the kernel for some 18-24
> months, or more.  Using Sidux, which has "high
> resolution timer" compiled-in with the kernel by default, it
> saves me much time compiling the kernel.
>
> I still need to configure the sytem by tweaking a couple of
> files:
>
>    /etc/security/limits.conf  ,
> or  /etc/security/limits.d/*
>
> and
>
>     /etc/sysctl.conf
>
> You can try to just use qjackctl/jack, aplaymidi with your
> SoundBlaster card and make sure it works first.
>
>
>
> >     Okay. This can be enough for now, maybe
> > you find that I have a buggy version of a certain
> software
> > which might be the cause of the problems. Now let me
> show
> > what these problems are:
> >
> > - JACK running, then I start Audacity: kaboom! Jack
> has a
> > lot of xruns and is automatically closed.
>
> That may be a problem that the application takes too long
> to communicatte with JACK.
>
> Increase qjackctl/jacd "Timeout (msec)" parameter in
> qjackctl, or "jackd -d 2000", or "jackd -d 1000" may help
> with the disconnection, or segfault problem.
>
> Xrun's are more likely because qjackctl/jacd
> "Frames/Period" parameter being too small, or configuration
> problem in /etc/security/limits.conf, /etc/sysctl.conf
> (mis-spell, perhaps, I did that myself one time).
>
>
> >     So, please, what do you suggest? Is
> > there currently a known problem with JACK or other
> > fundamental piece of Linux sound software? Or is this
> a
> > problem in my system?
>
> The other problems, I don't know for sure since I don't
> normally use those apps.
>
> Have you tried running from a liveCD of Musix, PureDyne,
> 64Studio... ?  These liveCD's are Debian based and are
> kept fairly up to date.  They are music oriented and
> has all the music related apps already installed and
> configured for you to try out on your hardware without
> having to install, yet allow you to install to your hard
> drive if you so choose.
>
> If one of these liveCD's work fine, you can learn from
> reading their configuration scripts, or menu settings and
> adapt to your own Debian setup, too.  Now I install
> from Sidux liveCD (not music oriented, but have High
> Resolution Timer enabled in the kernel, then use apt-get to
> get any music apps from Debian Sid/Unstable
> respository.  I have to say the configuration info I
> learned from Musix liveCD several years ago was much
> appreciated, if not saying invaluable.
>
> Jimmy
>
>
>
>      
>
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[Fabricio Rocha]

Heheh, I thought that Audacity had a little more prestige among Linux audio users! :)

Actually, I used Audacity because:

1) I already knew how to use it, which was not the case of Ardour (I'm trying to learn it now, doing some good progress).

2) Because it worked, even if somehow buggy. Previously, I had used Rosegarden for doing all my music, audio included, but now I could not have it working without sudden stops.

3) I have done very simple, mono direct recording from the mixer in some of my band's rehearsals, so a simple recorder was enough (Audacity, AFAIK, can do multitrack as well, but I really did not need it for recording rehearsals).

4) I tried ReZound some years ago and it was really, really buggy back then. Maybe it's time for a new attempt...

        My soundcard is a simple SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS, not a FireWire one. I am not sure about the hardware but it seems to be OK. But I might tell that I constantly get some "codec_read" errors during boot, and I don't know exactly where do they come from. Looks like an ACPI-support problem, but I really don't know.


Thanks to everyone!

Fabricio Rocha
Brasilia, Brasil


Tomasz Grzelak escreveu:

> I would rather ask 'why not Rezound instead of Audacity'? Try Rezound to
> see if you still get xruns.
> Another question - are you sure everything's fine with your hardware?
> besides, IRQs and their priorities are really important thing, so it's
> another case you should focus on.
> And do you have an internal soundcard (on a pci) or a firewire one? In
> the second case, some firewire chipsets are known to not behave well,
> and such problems are quite common when using such hardware (afaik they
> are via chipsets)
>
> 2009/11/6 Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...
> <mailto:stuff@...>>
>
>     -------- Original Message  --------
>     Subject: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or
>     am I    doing something wrong?
>     From: Fabricio Rocha <rocha_fabricio@...
>     <mailto:rocha_fabricio@...>>
>     To: Tomasz Grzelak <tgrzelak@... <mailto:tgrzelak@...>>
>     Cc: linux-audio-user@...
>     <mailto:linux-audio-user@...>,
>     ardour-users@...
>     <mailto:ardour-users@...>,
>     rosegarden-user@...
>     <mailto:rosegarden-user@...>
>     Date: 11/05/09 20:31
>
>         Updates to everyone who tried to help:
>
>         I have compiled kernel 2.6.29.6 with the famous Ingo Molnar -rt
>         patch (I have been using the vanilla realtime, "preemptible
>         kernel" option for a while, thinking that it was already all the
>         realtime stuff officially integrated to the kernel). But the
>         problems persisted and I did not knew what else to do. There is
>         also no sign of news in JACK world, nor something too old, so it
>         seemed to me that if there was a real bug in JACK, I would not
>         be the only one to complain.
>
>         Playing around with the configurations, I was able to surpass
>         the problem I had with Hydrogen segfaulting at start when JACK
>         is running. Starting Hydrogen from console I could see lots of
>         ALSA Midi errors prior to the segfault. Went to Hydrogen's
>         Preferences dialog, MIDI System tab and changed the "Input"
>         combobox to "QJackCtl". Also, I found that I had QJackCtl
>         configured with the "MIDI driver" combobox set to "seq". After
>         changing this to "none", Hydrogen was able to start correctly
>         under JACK. But I am still unaware of what exactly did these
>         changes mean and the consequences of them on running Hydrogen
>         with other softwares...
>
>         Also, I have to tell that after these changes I was also able to
>         normally record audio in Ardour while Hydrogen was playing
>         along. I could also record the Hydrogen output as a track.
>         Cheers. A small step for an amateur musician, an even smaller
>         step for the music humanity! :)
>
>         I tried to downgrade ALSA to 1.0.17 and test Audacity while JACK
>         was running. The problem persists whatever I do: while loading
>         Audacity, I get lots of xruns until JACK and QJackCtl are
>         automatically killed (sometimes Audacity dies as well). Starting
>         Audacity from console, I got these messages:
>
>         Expression 'err != ETIMEDOUT' failed in
>         'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1009
>         Expression 'result' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c',
>         line: 1029
>         Expression 'AddStream( stream )' failed in
>         'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1305
>         Expression 'err != ETIMEDOUT' failed in
>         'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1009
>         Expression 'result' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c',
>         line: 1029
>         Expression 'AddStream( stream )' failed in
>         'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1305
>
>         It seems that there is a bug in Audacity, isn't it?
>
>
>         Thanks to everyone!
>
>         Fabricio Rocha
>         Brasilia, Brasil
>
>
>     Not to be a jerk, but why audacity? Why not use ardour?
>
>

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[Christopher Cherrett]

I simply do not use Audacity because it is destructive in it's editing.

I also find ardour to be rock solid.

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or
am I doing something wrong?
From: Fabricio Rocha <rocha_fabricio@...>
To: rosegarden-user@...
Cc: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>,
ardour-users@...
Date: 11/08/09 12:36

> Heheh, I thought that Audacity had a little more prestige among Linux audio users! :)
>
> Actually, I used Audacity because:
>
> 1) I already knew how to use it, which was not the case of Ardour (I'm trying to learn it now, doing some good progress).
>
> 2) Because it worked, even if somehow buggy. Previously, I had used Rosegarden for doing all my music, audio included, but now I could not have it working without sudden stops.
>
> 3) I have done very simple, mono direct recording from the mixer in some of my band's rehearsals, so a simple recorder was enough (Audacity, AFAIK, can do multitrack as well, but I really did not need it for recording rehearsals).
>
> 4) I tried ReZound some years ago and it was really, really buggy back then. Maybe it's time for a new attempt...
>
> My soundcard is a simple SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS, not a FireWire one. I am not sure about the hardware but it seems to be OK. But I might tell that I constantly get some "codec_read" errors during boot, and I don't know exactly where do they come from. Looks like an ACPI-support problem, but I really don't know.
>
>
> Thanks to everyone!
>
> Fabricio Rocha
> Brasilia, Brasil
>
>
> Tomasz Grzelak escreveu:
>  
>> I would rather ask 'why not Rezound instead of Audacity'? Try Rezound to
>> see if you still get xruns.
>> Another question - are you sure everything's fine with your hardware?
>> besides, IRQs and their priorities are really important thing, so it's
>> another case you should focus on.
>> And do you have an internal soundcard (on a pci) or a firewire one? In
>> the second case, some firewire chipsets are known to not behave well,
>> and such problems are quite common when using such hardware (afaik they
>> are via chipsets)
>>
>> 2009/11/6 Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...
>> <mailto:stuff@...>>
>>
>>     -------- Original Message  --------
>>     Subject: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or
>>     am I    doing something wrong?
>>     From: Fabricio Rocha <rocha_fabricio@...
>>     <mailto:rocha_fabricio@...>>
>>     To: Tomasz Grzelak <tgrzelak@... <mailto:tgrzelak@...>>
>>     Cc: linux-audio-user@...
>>     <mailto:linux-audio-user@...>,
>>     ardour-users@...
>>     <mailto:ardour-users@...>,
>>     rosegarden-user@...
>>     <mailto:rosegarden-user@...>
>>     Date: 11/05/09 20:31
>>
>>         Updates to everyone who tried to help:
>>
>>         I have compiled kernel 2.6.29.6 with the famous Ingo Molnar -rt
>>         patch (I have been using the vanilla realtime, "preemptible
>>         kernel" option for a while, thinking that it was already all the
>>         realtime stuff officially integrated to the kernel). But the
>>         problems persisted and I did not knew what else to do. There is
>>         also no sign of news in JACK world, nor something too old, so it
>>         seemed to me that if there was a real bug in JACK, I would not
>>         be the only one to complain.
>>
>>         Playing around with the configurations, I was able to surpass
>>         the problem I had with Hydrogen segfaulting at start when JACK
>>         is running. Starting Hydrogen from console I could see lots of
>>         ALSA Midi errors prior to the segfault. Went to Hydrogen's
>>         Preferences dialog, MIDI System tab and changed the "Input"
>>         combobox to "QJackCtl". Also, I found that I had QJackCtl
>>         configured with the "MIDI driver" combobox set to "seq". After
>>         changing this to "none", Hydrogen was able to start correctly
>>         under JACK. But I am still unaware of what exactly did these
>>         changes mean and the consequences of them on running Hydrogen
>>         with other softwares...
>>
>>         Also, I have to tell that after these changes I was also able to
>>         normally record audio in Ardour while Hydrogen was playing
>>         along. I could also record the Hydrogen output as a track.
>>         Cheers. A small step for an amateur musician, an even smaller
>>         step for the music humanity! :)
>>
>>         I tried to downgrade ALSA to 1.0.17 and test Audacity while JACK
>>         was running. The problem persists whatever I do: while loading
>>         Audacity, I get lots of xruns until JACK and QJackCtl are
>>         automatically killed (sometimes Audacity dies as well). Starting
>>         Audacity from console, I got these messages:
>>
>>         Expression 'err != ETIMEDOUT' failed in
>>         'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1009
>>         Expression 'result' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c',
>>         line: 1029
>>         Expression 'AddStream( stream )' failed in
>>         'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1305
>>         Expression 'err != ETIMEDOUT' failed in
>>         'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1009
>>         Expression 'result' failed in 'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c',
>>         line: 1029
>>         Expression 'AddStream( stream )' failed in
>>         'src/hostapi/jack/pa_jack.c', line: 1305
>>
>>         It seems that there is a bug in Audacity, isn't it?
>>
>>
>>         Thanks to everyone!
>>
>>         Fabricio Rocha
>>         Brasilia, Brasil
>>
>>
>>     Not to be a jerk, but why audacity? Why not use ardour?
>>
>>
>>    
>
>
>
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[cannam]

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Christopher Cherrett
<stuff@...> wrote:
> I simply do not use Audacity because it is destructive in it's editing.

By which I assume you mean it's a destructive editor (by design)
rather than that it (say) crashes and destroys your work?

Audacity is a fine program -- I think the reason it isn't more widely
approved of in the "Linux audio world" is just that it doesn't have
native JACK support.


Chris

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or
am I    doing something wrong?
From: Chris Cannam <cannam@...>
To: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>
Cc: rosegarden-user@..., Fabricio Rocha
<rocha_fabricio@...>
Date: 11/08/09 14:07

> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Christopher Cherrett
> <stuff@...> wrote:
>  
>> I simply do not use Audacity because it is destructive in it's editing.
>>    
>
> By which I assume you mean it's a destructive editor (by design)
> rather than that it (say) crashes and destroys your work?
>
>  

Ah yes. When you apply an effect in audacity it is final/destructive.

Lets take for example adding an old vinyl record effect to a single track:

1. Audacity: select the track, open the plugins and select the old vinyl
record effect. This action has not applied the old record effect and you
no longer have your original audio track. It replaces it with the new
audio waveform. The only way to get back your original waveform is to
first make a backup of it or undo the effect.

2. Ardour: add a new old vinyl plugin to the track you want. It creates
an instance of that plugin that you can click on in that tracks plugin
area. Change the settings, bypasss the plugin, delete the plugin. No
matter what you do to the settings of that plugin your original audio
sample remains untouched.
 
I remember the day I first understood this. I never went back to
destructive editing again.

> Audacity is a fine program -- I think the reason it isn't more widely
> approved of in the "Linux audio world" is just that it doesn't have
> native JACK support.
>
>
> Chris
>
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[cannam]

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Christopher Cherrett
<stuff@...> wrote:
> 1. Audacity: select the track, open the plugins and select the old vinyl
> record effect. This action has no[w] applied the old record effect and you no
> longer have your original audio track.

Hang on -- you're right in principle, but this sounds scarier than it
is -- it sounds (from the above) as if you've lost the original audio
file, which is not true.  You haven't actually lost anything unless
you choose to save the new waveform over the old one.

In an audio editor, destructive editing is very often what you want.
In an audio arranger, it usually isn't.


Chris

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or
am I    doing something wrong?
From: Chris Cannam <cannam@...>
To: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>
Cc: rosegarden-user@..., Fabricio Rocha
<rocha_fabricio@...>
Date: 11/08/09 14:56

> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Christopher Cherrett
> <stuff@...> wrote:
>  
>> 1. Audacity: select the track, open the plugins and select the old vinyl
>> record effect. This action has no[w] applied the old record effect and you no
>> longer have your original audio track.
>>    
>
> Hang on -- you're right in principle, but this sounds scarier than it
> is -- it sounds (from the above) as if you've lost the original audio
> file, which is not true.  You haven't actually lost anything unless
> you choose to save the new waveform over the old one.
>
> In an audio editor, destructive editing is very often what you want.
> In an audio arranger, it usually isn't.
>
>
> Chris
>
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>  

Hang on -- scary? No just what it is. True you still have your raw files
but I do a lot of editing and I would never want destructive. It makes
no sense to me. In audacity I make liberal use of undo. Not my idea of
productive.


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[Vladimir Savic-3]

I'm standing behind Cannam here.

Destructive editing is a must sometimes (Except for simple recording,
multitrack or not, and a few effect types).

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Christopher Cherrett
<stuff@...> wrote:

> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or
> am I    doing something wrong?
> From: Chris Cannam <cannam@...>
> To: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>
> Cc: rosegarden-user@..., Fabricio Rocha
> <rocha_fabricio@...>
> Date: 11/08/09 14:56
>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Christopher Cherrett
>> <stuff@...> wrote:
>>
>>> 1. Audacity: select the track, open the plugins and select the old vinyl
>>> record effect. This action has no[w] applied the old record effect and you no
>>> longer have your original audio track.
>>>
>>
>> Hang on -- you're right in principle, but this sounds scarier than it
>> is -- it sounds (from the above) as if you've lost the original audio
>> file, which is not true.  You haven't actually lost anything unless
>> you choose to save the new waveform over the old one.
>>
>> In an audio editor, destructive editing is very often what you want.
>> In an audio arranger, it usually isn't.
>>
>>
>> Chris
>>

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[Christopher Cherrett]

Congratulations on your backing Cannam! :)

Now give some examples on why it is a must to have destructive editing.
I am very curious.

Thanks!

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or
am I    doing something wrong?
From: Vladimir Savic <vladimir.firefly.savic@...>
To: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>
Cc: rosegarden-user@..., Fabricio Rocha
<rocha_fabricio@...>, Chris Cannam <cannam@...>
Date: 11/08/09 16:26

> I'm standing behind Cannam here.
>
> Destructive editing is a must sometimes (Except for simple recording,
> multitrack or not, and a few effect types).
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Christopher Cherrett
> <stuff@...> wrote:
>  
>> -------- Original Message  --------
>> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or
>> am I    doing something wrong?
>> From: Chris Cannam <cannam@...>
>> To: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>
>> Cc: rosegarden-user@..., Fabricio Rocha
>> <rocha_fabricio@...>
>> Date: 11/08/09 14:56
>>    
>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:26 PM, Christopher Cherrett
>>> <stuff@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>> 1. Audacity: select the track, open the plugins and select the old vinyl
>>>> record effect. This action has no[w] applied the old record effect and you no
>>>> longer have your original audio track.
>>>>
>>>>        
>>> Hang on -- you're right in principle, but this sounds scarier than it
>>> is -- it sounds (from the above) as if you've lost the original audio
>>> file, which is not true.  You haven't actually lost anything unless
>>> you choose to save the new waveform over the old one.
>>>
>>> In an audio editor, destructive editing is very often what you want.
>>> In an audio arranger, it usually isn't.
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>      
>
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>  

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[D. Michael McIntyre]

On Sunday 08 November 2009, Christopher Cherrett wrote:

> Now give some examples on why it is a must to have destructive editing.
> I am very curious.

Let's not, please.  This list is about Rosegarden.  While this list is pretty
lax, I think all this blather about Ardour and Audacity is getting out of
hand.

Thanks.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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[Christopher Cherrett]

Ah man! :)

I was so looking forward to this :)

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or
am I doing something wrong?
From: D. Michael McIntyre <michael.mcintyre@...>
To: rosegarden-user@...
Date: 11/08/09 17:58

> On Sunday 08 November 2009, Christopher Cherrett wrote:
>
>  
>> Now give some examples on why it is a must to have destructive editing.
>> I am very curious.
>>    
>
> Let's not, please.  This list is about Rosegarden.  While this list is pretty
> lax, I think all this blather about Ardour and Audacity is getting out of
> hand.
>
> Thanks.
>  

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[david-602]

Chris Cannam wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Christopher Cherrett
> <stuff@...> wrote:
>> I simply do not use Audacity because it is destructive in it's editing.
>
> By which I assume you mean it's a destructive editor (by design)
> rather than that it (say) crashes and destroys your work?
>
> Audacity is a fine program -- I think the reason it isn't more widely
> approved of in the "Linux audio world" is just that it doesn't have
> native JACK support.

Also cuz it's too easy to use compared to Ardour? Can't possibly be any
good! ;-)

--
David
gnome@...
authenticity, honesty, community

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] Res: Audio software crisis in Linux? Or
am I    doing something wrong?
From: david <gnome@...>
To: rosegarden-user <rosegarden-user@...>
Date: 11/08/09 21:48

> Chris Cannam wrote:
>  
>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Christopher Cherrett
>> <stuff@...> wrote:
>>    
>>> I simply do not use Audacity because it is destructive in it's editing.
>>>      
>> By which I assume you mean it's a destructive editor (by design)
>> rather than that it (say) crashes and destroys your work?
>>
>> Audacity is a fine program -- I think the reason it isn't more widely
>> approved of in the "Linux audio world" is just that it doesn't have
>> native JACK support.
>>    
>
> Also cuz it's too easy to use compared to Ardour? Can't possibly be any
> good! ;-)
>
>  

I thought the topic was in regards to a guy using a realtime kernel and
audacity crashing all the time. Sounds like in his environment audacity
is not so easy to use.

Who said Audacity is not any good? My point was is that it is
destructive editing. Do you know what that means? If not I could explain
further.

Quoted from your private email to me:

<quote>
Really? Many times in Audacity I've done that same thing (with other
plugins), exported the project. Then started a new project and
reimported the original track recordings - which don't show having the
plugin applied to them at all ... doesn't sound destructive to me!

Anyway, Ardour (and all the other "pro audio workstation" software I've
looked at on other platforms) is far too complicated for me to learn.
They all seem to assume that you're a trained audio engineer ...    
</quote>

I understand where you are coming from. But have no clue why you think
that is a good way to edit. That is called "Destructive Editing".  The
term refers to the session you are working on. Try making 30 changes and
then deciding you need to tweak change 15 while keeping all other
changes you made. Now you have a problem.

Most pro-audio solutions are just that. For a pro. So back to the
original question. The guy wanted help making things work in a pro
realtime environment and audacity was crashing bad.

Thanks!



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