Nabble - BIRD ID FRONTIERS

Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

2009-12-11T10:04:18Z

Here in California we have been identifying birds like this
japonicus. Although it lacks the bold black upperpart streaks that
some birds can show, I believe that some japonicus have less distinct
streaking, perhaps first-cycle and/or females. I have seen 6-8 and
there seems to be a clear separation between this group and the other
American subspecies, with few or no intermediates. This bird reminds
me a lot of one I saw in northern Baja California last winter, which
I had no problem submitting as japonicus.

Peter

Photos:
>>
>> http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.0
>>
>>

At 08:30 AM 12/11/2009, you wrote:

>One other thing that is clearly visible in the photos of the Chicago bird,
>but I don't know if it's important, is that the two outer tail feathers (R6
>and R5) have white outer webs all the way to the base.
>
>-greg neise
>Berwyn, IL
>
>
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Fw: Pipit

2009-12-11T09:48:49Z

Hi all,

Another vote for variant/aberrant 'American Pipit' here, with the proviso that I am not familiar with the extent of variation within this species in winter (basic) plumage, having only seen around 5 vagrants here. I am forwarding the text of a mail that I sent a friend of mine earlier today, mainly as he said that it may be worth putting on here.

Regards,

Harry

--- On Fri, 11/12/09, Harry Hussey <hhussey3@...> wrote:

From: Harry Hussey <hhussey3@...>
Subject: Pipit
To: "Caleb Puttnam" <larus10@...>
Cc: "Harry Hussey" <hhussey3@...>
Date: Friday, 11 December, 2009, 11:51

Hi Caleb,

    Many thanks for bringing this to my attention. I had received the initial correspondence from the ID Frontiers mailing group, but had yet to get around to opening the link to the site with images of the bird.

    This challenge, to me, is interesting as, whereas you are approaching it from a position of never having seen a Palearctic pipit, I am coming at this with a limited understanding of variation within Buff-bellied ('American') Pipit, having seen around 5 vagrants over here. I find it hard, therefore, to be authoritative, but I'll let you know what I think anyway.

     First off, I think we can safely say that this is one of the Rock/Water/Buff-bellied complex: all of the small pipits can be ruled out on at least one or two features, with Meadow, Tree, Red-throated and Pechora being more heavily marked above than the subject bird, especially so in the case of the latter two, Olive-backed having a different head pattern, olive-toned upperparts etc, Tree and Olive-backed having darker lores, and so on. It's also very obviously not one of the large pipits (Richard's/Tawny/Blyth's), for so many reasons.

    On first glance, therefore, the white underparts may give rise to hopes of Water, but this bird would look quite odd, at least when compared to nominate western birds. The apparently white outer tail feathers, limited narrow streaking on the flanks etc, also the pale lores and other subtle features of the head pattern, would appear to exclude even the occasional pale, greyish Rock Pipit (either taxon), and the pale lores, exact nature of the upperparts markings and such are also wrong for nominate Water Pipit. The head pattern, coupled with a thicker bill than on Rock, of nominate Water in winter (basic) plumage almost reminds me of a Redwing, though I concede that this is somewhat fanciful.

     So far, so good, but it should be remembered that there are two other taxa included in Water Pipit: coutelli and blakistoni. The former is more heavily streaked above than the nominate, and also has dark lores, so is not a valid option here, but blakistoni often has paler lores, perhaps more limited flank streaking, and tends to be poorly marked on the upperparts. I can't find much information on this taxon, but there are some pics about half way down at http://wrightswanderings.blogspot.com/2008_12_01_archive.html.

     These birds, photographed at Beidaihe in October, do look different from Water Pipits that I am used to (I saw no Water Pipits in China myself, in May), but they still show many features that I would associate with the species, such as a brown rump, contrast between a greyer nape and brown mantle (more pronounced, apparently, in blakistoni than on spinoletta, and it seems to be the case based on this small sample size), and even the head pattern, while the lores are paler, does appear closer to nominate Water than that of the subject bird does, it could be argued.

     To be honest, and I appreciate that this is where I have to kind of follow a 'gut instinct' to some degree, the mystery bird most reminds me of an American Pipit of some taxon: the head pattern, general shape, nature of the dark markings to the upperparts, visible white on the tail feathers, bill shape/colour, nature of the flank streaking all seem reminiscent of this species to me, and, while I concede that the colour is most odd, surely an aberrant American Pipit is more likely than a non-classic blakistoni Water Pipit, especially since some features of the bird appear closer to the former than the latter anyway?

    A very interesting bird, all the same, whatever happens in the end with it.

                                                           Regards,

                                                                 Harry

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Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

2009-12-11T08:47:08Z

Berwyn

I suspect your bird is a variant American Buff-bellied Pipit (rubescens). It does not appear to be a Water Pipit of any form.

There is some overlap in the features of both japonicus and rubescens and Paul Lehman speculated that birds in the Bering Sea area may be intergrades between the two populations.

American Buff-bellied Pipit (hereafter ABBP) varies from being plain-mantled and olive-toned, with a distinct GREY CAST. Siberian Buff-bellied Pipit (hereafter SBBP) has similar upperparts, but are often darker in tone and more browner in general colouration. It also has a much whiter supercilium and eye-ring and more contrasting whiter underparts. In comparison, ABBP is generally more extensively buff below, with this colour extending to the supercilium and eye-ring. Often, the eye-ring of japonicus is more striking and obvious.

The tips of the median and greater coverts of ABBP are buffish and diffusely demarcated, whilst in SBBP, the tips are distinctly whitish and much more clear cut and defined. ABBP has mid to dark brown streaking, short and often diffuse, often blurred together on the breast and extending in narrower streaks down the flanks. The breast streaking on SBBP are normally very dark chocolate-brown or blackish, generally broader, better defined and sometimes even spotted-like. The underparts are overall much more contrasting.

The leg colour is usually distinctly different between the two species. Rubescens have very dark leg colour, varying from dark reddish-brown to black, whilst in japonicus the leg colour averages much paler, being pinkish or pale brown, but exceptionally black.

The tail pattern of both species is somewhat variable (as in most pipit species) but rubescens averages more white on t5 (the second to outer-most feather) and often has a white tip to t4.

To the trained ear, there are subtle differences in calls: ABBP has a somewhat Meadow Pipit-like 'tsip' note, often repeated five or six times, whilst SBBP has a much more 'buzzy' tone to it, often uttered just once.

So, in summary, it ought to be possible to identify an either/or on 1) the base colour of the underparts; 2) the facial pattern; 3) the colour of the wing-bars; 4) the extent and colour of the underpart streaking and 5) colour of its legs.

SEPARATION OF AMERICAN BUFF-BELLIED PIPIT FROM WATER PIPIT

Should be relatively straightforward. Water Pipit is a larger and more robust bird. It has a larger, heavier bill and shows a whitish eye-ring that is invariably broken, at least in front of the eye. This combines with dark lores and a darker eye-stripe to give a somewhat aggressive appearance, quite unlike the plain, open-faced expression of rubescens. The moustachial stripe is also much weaker. The crown and nape are distinctly greyer than the mantle in Water Pipit, and lack the olive tones, whilst the rump and uppertail coverts are prominently warm-toned (in ABBP, the rump is concolorous with the upperparts). The tail and tertials are consistently blacker in ABBP and the flight calls are noticeably different - a weak, slightly drawn out 'veeestt' in Water Pipit.

ESSENTIAL READING

Per Alstrom & Krister Mild (2003), Pipits and Wagtails of Europe, Asia and North America; The identification of Rock, Water and Buff-bellied Pipits, published in Alula 4: 161-175

Lee & Bitch 2002, Notes on the distribution, vagrancy and field identification of American Pipit and Siberian Pipit, North American Birds 56: 389-398

Peter Pyle 1997, Identification Guide to North American Birds Part 1

Paul French, Identification of American and Siberian Buff-bellied Pipits in the Western Patearctic, published in Birding World 19: 439-535.

Lee G R Evans
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Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

2009-12-11T08:44:47Z

I think those images, at least a lot of them, are japonicus, not spinoletta
Water Pipits which is confusing the issue..

best,

Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1@...

www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Neise" <gregneise@...>
To: <BIRDWG01@...>
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

One thing that has been brought to my attention this morning is that the
Chicago bird has pale lores, and A. spinoletta should have dark lores.

However, I have been looking at gobs and gobs of images this morning (as you
might expect), and one thing I've noticed is that every image labeled A.
spinoletta from Japan has pale lores:

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.msg37423#msg37423

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

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Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

2009-12-11T08:30:46Z

One other thing that is clearly visible in the photos of the Chicago bird,
but I don't know if it's important, is that the two outer tail feathers (R6
and R5) have white outer webs all the way to the base.

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

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Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

2009-12-11T08:17:36Z

Amazing what happens when someone turns on the lights!

With my resources limited to the internet (as far as this group goes), I had
been operating under the assumption that these were all spinoletta!

Well then, it does seem to me that this bird could fit within A. r.
japonicus, except for a possibility of A. spinoletta blakistoni, which I
have found very little information about.

Thanks again,

-greg

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Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

2009-12-11T07:56:24Z

Because the spinoletta from Japan are japonicus BBPipits, not spinoletta :)))

The explanation is that japonicus (like rubescens) has long been treated as subspecies of Water Pipit Anthus spinoletta. Hence the confusion (I suppose) in picture legends...

But I can see only japonicus on the pictures from Japan that you have added to your site...

Pierre-André Crochet
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive
1919, route de Mende
34293 Montpellier cedex 5
France
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 (mobile)
+ 33 4 67 61 32 98 (office)
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38

-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01@...] De la part de Greg Neise
Envoyé : 11 December 2009 16:48
À : BIRDWG01@...
Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

One thing that has been brought to my attention this morning is that the Chicago bird has pale lores, and A. spinoletta should have dark lores.

However, I have been looking at gobs and gobs of images this morning (as you might expect), and one thing I've noticed is that every image labeled A.
spinoletta from Japan has pale lores:

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.msg37423#msg37423

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

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Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

2009-12-11T07:47:41Z

One thing that has been brought to my attention this morning is that the
Chicago bird has pale lores, and A. spinoletta should have dark lores.

However, I have been looking at gobs and gobs of images this morning (as you
might expect), and one thing I've noticed is that every image labeled A.
spinoletta from Japan has pale lores:

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.msg37423#msg37423

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

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Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

2009-12-11T07:41:23Z

Greg,

Your bird has some characters of "japonicus" -greyer, whiter-fringes to
median coverts and red-brown legs and looks grayer overall, but I don't have
any experience of japonicus and so can't really comment any further. I have
seen several rubescens that have looked paler-legged and slightly grayer,
but your bird seems colder in tone than any I have seen. It would definitely
be a bird I'd take a closer look at if I found this in the field.

However, my feeling is it's a weird rubescens, since it doesn't seem to fit
into anything I know (except maybe japonicus, but I'll leave that to others
to explain more succinctly why it is or isn't). I do not think it's a Water
Pipit of any of the European races. They are quite a sturdy bird, with a
longish bill and typically show dusky lores (lacking in the Chicago bird)
which contrast with a rather distinct whitish supercilium. Combined with
pale malar areas and pale throat, the head pattern is typically more
contrasting than rubescens.

Best,

Julian Hough,
CT, USA
jrhough1@...

www.naturescapeimages.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Neise" <gregneise@...>
To: <BIRDWG01@...>
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

I've done a bit more research, and had some help from friends whose
libraries are more complete than my own concerning European birds, and
discovered that this bird bears a striking resemblance to immature Water
Pipit (Anthus spinoletta).

A few things that stand out:

Overall grayish color.
Buffy auricular contrasting with gray/white head and nape.
Lateral throat stripe same color and tone as the upperparts, not darker.
Crisp blackish streaking on crown and mantle.
Black-centered median coverts with bold white fringes.
Distinct white wing bars.
Whitish malar wrapping around behind the auricular.
Necklace of streaks defining a clean white throat.
Lower mandible yellow nearly to the tip.
Leg color looks to be identical.

I've put together some comparison photos:

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.msg37416#msg37416

I would very very much appreciate especially the input of people in Europe
who may be familiar with Water Pipits.

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:27:18 -0800, Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel@...>
wrote:

>Greg
>
>Definitely nothing to heckle about here, this is indeed an interesting bird
>and you should be commended for picking it out of the crowd. I have seen a
>few like this here in California (have photos of a very similar bird), and
>I
>haven't been sure what to do with them. If I recall correctly, this bird is
>similar to one from British Columbia that was posted months ago on ID
>Frontiers. In some ways it looks like pale* japonicus* (whitish ground
>color, distinct markings below, paler legs), but it doesn't have enough to
>make it a classic example. Paul Lehman often sees a few birds up at Gambell
>that he calls "Tweeners" because they don't fit the classic mold for *
>japonicus* or *pacificus*, but I'll let him chime in about those. I asked a
>while ago about variation in *alticola* and didn't hear much back. My guess
>is that there is great variation within and across subspecies, and these
>pale extremes might occur rarely in all of them. I know, that's the easy
>way
>out! More study needed!
>
>Brian
>
>On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Greg Neise <gregneise@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm not sure what to make of this bird...I think it's an American Pipit
>> (at
>> least I can't think of what else it might be offhand). I first noticed it
>> among a group of 8-10 American Pipits, and I thought I had a
>> Yellow-rumped
>> Warbler for a second. It was smaller than the other pipits, with a
>> shorter
>> tail, it fluttered more than it walked...and didn't walk with the
>> typical,
>> long-necked "pigeon stride" that American Pipits have. It did not bob
>> it's
>> tail while I was watching it.
>>
>> But the plumage is what really made it stand out: it was gray, with a
>> distinctly streaked back and crown. White underparts with crisp streaks
>> forming a short necklace (forming a distinct white throat), distinct
>> whitish
>> wingbars, tail had 2 outer retrices white all the way to the base. The
>> bill
>> was also brighter yellow than the other Pipits and the legs appeared a
>> bit
>> paler, but not flesh-colored (as in Red-throated). Lastly, whenever this
>> bird got near the American Pipits, they chased it away.
>>
>> Photos:
>>
>> http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.0
>>
>> As always, input, suggestions and heckling encouraged.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -greg neise
>> Berwyn, IL
>>
>>
>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
>> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>
>
>
>--
>===========
>Brian L. Sullivan
>Pacific Grove, CA
>
>eBird/AKN Project Leader
>www.ebird.org
>www.avianknowledge.net
>
>Photographic Editor,
>Birds of North America Online
>http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
>
>Cornell Lab of Ornithology
>159 Sapsucker Woods Rd.
>Ithaca, NY 14850
>
>Photographic Editor,
>North American Birds
>American Birding Association
>www.americanbirding.org
>
>bls42@...
>609-694-3280
>-------------------------------
>
>
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Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

2009-12-11T06:54:04Z

Dear all,

I'm by no mean expert on the variation of Buff-bellied Pipits, having seen a few japonicus and two rubescens in the field. But I've spent a bit of time looking at my locally wintering Water Pipit, and if I ever saw a bird like yours here, I would get really really excited...

Based on my limited experience, I can't offer any explanation on why this individual looks different from "normal" rubescens, but to me it looks more like American Buff-bellied Pipit than anything else. It does not have the "Meadow-Pipit like" look of japonicus and does not look like spinoletta (or petrosus). I would certainly bet on an American Buff-Bellied Pipit ...

Hope this helps,

Pierre

Pierre-André Crochet
CNRS-UMR 5175 Centre d'Ecologie Fonctionnelle et Evolutive
1919, route de Mende
34293 Montpellier cedex 5
France
tel: + 33 6 07 32 60 75 (mobile)
+ 33 4 67 61 32 98 (office)
fax: + 33 4 67 41 21 38

-----Message d'origine-----
De : NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01@...] De la part de Greg Neise
Envoyé : 11 December 2009 15:46
À : BIRDWG01@...
Objet : Re: [BIRDWG01] An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

I've done a bit more research, and had some help from friends whose libraries are more complete than my own concerning European birds, and discovered that this bird bears a striking resemblance to immature Water Pipit (Anthus spinoletta).

A few things that stand out:

Overall grayish color.
Buffy auricular contrasting with gray/white head and nape.
Lateral throat stripe same color and tone as the upperparts, not darker.
Crisp blackish streaking on crown and mantle.
Black-centered median coverts with bold white fringes.
Distinct white wing bars.
Whitish malar wrapping around behind the auricular.
Necklace of streaks defining a clean white throat.
Lower mandible yellow nearly to the tip.
Leg color looks to be identical.

I've put together some comparison photos:

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.msg37416#msg37416

I would very very much appreciate especially the input of people in Europe who may be familiar with Water Pipits.

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:27:18 -0800, Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel@...>
wrote:

>Greg
>
>Definitely nothing to heckle about here, this is indeed an interesting
>bird and you should be commended for picking it out of the crowd. I
>have seen a few like this here in California (have photos of a very
>similar bird), and I haven't been sure what to do with them. If I
>recall correctly, this bird is similar to one from British Columbia
>that was posted months ago on ID Frontiers. In some ways it looks like
>pale* japonicus* (whitish ground color, distinct markings below, paler
>legs), but it doesn't have enough to make it a classic example. Paul
>Lehman often sees a few birds up at Gambell that he calls "Tweeners"
>because they don't fit the classic mold for *
>japonicus* or *pacificus*, but I'll let him chime in about those. I
>asked a while ago about variation in *alticola* and didn't hear much
>back. My guess is that there is great variation within and across
>subspecies, and these pale extremes might occur rarely in all of them.
>I know, that's the easy way out! More study needed!
>
>Brian
>
>On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Greg Neise <gregneise@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm not sure what to make of this bird...I think it's an American
>> Pipit (at least I can't think of what else it might be offhand). I
>> first noticed it among a group of 8-10 American Pipits, and I thought
>> I had a Yellow-rumped Warbler for a second. It was smaller than the
>> other pipits, with a shorter tail, it fluttered more than it
>> walked...and didn't walk with the typical, long-necked "pigeon
>> stride" that American Pipits have. It did not bob it's tail while I was watching it.
>>
>> But the plumage is what really made it stand out: it was gray, with a
>> distinctly streaked back and crown. White underparts with crisp
>> streaks forming a short necklace (forming a distinct white throat),
>> distinct whitish wingbars, tail had 2 outer retrices white all the
>> way to the base. The bill was also brighter yellow than the other
>> Pipits and the legs appeared a bit paler, but not flesh-colored (as
>> in Red-throated). Lastly, whenever this bird got near the American
>> Pipits, they chased it away.
>>
>> Photos:
>>
>> http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.0
>>
>> As always, input, suggestions and heckling encouraged.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -greg neise
>> Berwyn, IL
>>
>>
>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
>> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>
>
>
>--
>===========
>Brian L. Sullivan
>Pacific Grove, CA
>
>eBird/AKN Project Leader
>www.ebird.org
>www.avianknowledge.net
>
>Photographic Editor,
>Birds of North America Online
>http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
>
>Cornell Lab of Ornithology
>159 Sapsucker Woods Rd.
>Ithaca, NY 14850
>
>Photographic Editor,
>North American Birds
>American Birding Association
>www.americanbirding.org
>
>bls42@...
>609-694-3280
>-------------------------------
>
>
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Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago (Water Pipit?)

2009-12-11T06:45:34Z

I've done a bit more research, and had some help from friends whose
libraries are more complete than my own concerning European birds, and
discovered that this bird bears a striking resemblance to immature Water
Pipit (Anthus spinoletta).

A few things that stand out:

Overall grayish color.
Buffy auricular contrasting with gray/white head and nape.
Lateral throat stripe same color and tone as the upperparts, not darker.
Crisp blackish streaking on crown and mantle.
Black-centered median coverts with bold white fringes.
Distinct white wing bars.
Whitish malar wrapping around behind the auricular.
Necklace of streaks defining a clean white throat.
Lower mandible yellow nearly to the tip.
Leg color looks to be identical.

I've put together some comparison photos:

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.msg37416#msg37416

I would very very much appreciate especially the input of people in Europe
who may be familiar with Water Pipits.

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:27:18 -0800, Brian Sullivan <heraldpetrel@...>
wrote:

>Greg
>
>Definitely nothing to heckle about here, this is indeed an interesting bird
>and you should be commended for picking it out of the crowd. I have seen a
>few like this here in California (have photos of a very similar bird), and I
>haven't been sure what to do with them. If I recall correctly, this bird is
>similar to one from British Columbia that was posted months ago on ID
>Frontiers. In some ways it looks like pale* japonicus* (whitish ground
>color, distinct markings below, paler legs), but it doesn't have enough to
>make it a classic example. Paul Lehman often sees a few birds up at Gambell
>that he calls "Tweeners" because they don't fit the classic mold for *
>japonicus* or *pacificus*, but I'll let him chime in about those. I asked a
>while ago about variation in *alticola* and didn't hear much back. My guess
>is that there is great variation within and across subspecies, and these
>pale extremes might occur rarely in all of them. I know, that's the easy way
>out! More study needed!
>
>Brian
>
>On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Greg Neise <gregneise@...> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm not sure what to make of this bird...I think it's an American Pipit (at
>> least I can't think of what else it might be offhand). I first noticed it
>> among a group of 8-10 American Pipits, and I thought I had a Yellow-rumped
>> Warbler for a second. It was smaller than the other pipits, with a shorter
>> tail, it fluttered more than it walked...and didn't walk with the typical,
>> long-necked "pigeon stride" that American Pipits have. It did not bob it's
>> tail while I was watching it.
>>
>> But the plumage is what really made it stand out: it was gray, with a
>> distinctly streaked back and crown. White underparts with crisp streaks
>> forming a short necklace (forming a distinct white throat), distinct
>> whitish
>> wingbars, tail had 2 outer retrices white all the way to the base. The bill
>> was also brighter yellow than the other Pipits and the legs appeared a bit
>> paler, but not flesh-colored (as in Red-throated). Lastly, whenever this
>> bird got near the American Pipits, they chased it away.
>>
>> Photos:
>>
>> http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.0
>>
>> As always, input, suggestions and heckling encouraged.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -greg neise
>> Berwyn, IL
>>
>>
>> Join or Leave BIRDWG01:
>> http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>>
>> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
>>
>
>
>
>--
>===========
>Brian L. Sullivan
>Pacific Grove, CA
>
>eBird/AKN Project Leader
>www.ebird.org
>www.avianknowledge.net
>
>Photographic Editor,
>Birds of North America Online
>http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA
>
>Cornell Lab of Ornithology
>159 Sapsucker Woods Rd.
>Ithaca, NY 14850
>
>Photographic Editor,
>North American Birds
>American Birding Association
>www.americanbirding.org
>
>bls42@...
>609-694-3280
>-------------------------------
>
>
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Re: An Interesting Pipit in Chicago

2009-12-10T16:27:18Z

Greg

Definitely nothing to heckle about here, this is indeed an interesting bird and you should be commended for picking it out of the crowd. I have seen a few like this here in California (have photos of a very similar bird), and I haven't been sure what to do with them. If I recall correctly, this bird is similar to one from British Columbia that was posted months ago on ID Frontiers. In some ways it looks like pale japonicus (whitish ground color, distinct markings below, paler legs), but it doesn't have enough to make it a classic example. Paul Lehman often sees a few birds up at Gambell that he calls "Tweeners" because they don't fit the classic mold for japonicus or pacificus, but I'll let him chime in about those. I asked a while ago about variation in alticola and didn't hear much back. My guess is that there is great variation within and across subspecies, and these pale extremes might occur rarely in all of them. I know, that's the easy way out! More study needed!

Brian

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Greg Neise <gregneise@...> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm not sure what to make of this bird...I think it's an American Pipit (at
least I can't think of what else it might be offhand). I first noticed it
among a group of 8-10 American Pipits, and I thought I had a Yellow-rumped
Warbler for a second. It was smaller than the other pipits, with a shorter
tail, it fluttered more than it walked...and didn't walk with the typical,
long-necked "pigeon stride" that American Pipits have. It did not bob it's
tail while I was watching it.

But the plumage is what really made it stand out: it was gray, with a
distinctly streaked back and crown. White underparts with crisp streaks
forming a short necklace (forming a distinct white throat), distinct whitish
wingbars, tail had 2 outer retrices white all the way to the base. The bill
was also brighter yellow than the other Pipits and the legs appeared a bit
paler, but not flesh-colored (as in Red-throated). Lastly, whenever this
bird got near the American Pipits, they chased it away.

Photos:

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.0

As always, input, suggestions and heckling encouraged.

Cheers,

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

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--
===========
Brian L. Sullivan
Pacific Grove, CA

eBird/AKN Project Leader
www.ebird.org
www.avianknowledge.net

Photographic Editor,
Birds of North America Online
http://bna.birds.cornell.edu/BNA

Cornell Lab of Ornithology
159 Sapsucker Woods Rd.
Ithaca, NY 14850

Photographic Editor,
North American Birds
American Birding Association
www.americanbirding.org

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Rusty Blackbird v. Variant Brewer's

2009-12-10T14:57:56Z

All:

While birding at White Rock Lake in Dallas, TX today I had good looks (at least of the upperside and head) of a Rusty or variant Brewer’s Blackbird. The bird had extensive buffy/brown mottling all over the head, throat, upperbreast, upper back and scapulars. However, there were no rusty edges to the tertials, wing-coverts, or upper-tailed coverts. The tertials at least were a glossy black. Size wise the bird looked perhaps a bit more compact that a typical Brewer’s (which I see commonly in CA) and was markedly smaller than a Common Grackle. Having looked through a bunch of photos, my impression is that male Rusty Blackbirds can be almost all black on the tertials and wing-coverts event by early October so I am guessing that my bird was in fact a male Rusty. However, I’d appreciate if others with more experience of Rusty Blackbirds can confirm that males can appear this way by early December. The checklist for the site lists Rusty as rare and Brewer’s as unrecorded, so Rusty is more likely and the bird was in flooded bottomland woodland, which is allegedly the preferred habitat of Rusty (in CA I’ve only seen them in supermarket parking lots!). However if I found such a bird in CA, I’m not sure what I would make of it, since my understanding was that rusty tertial edges were needed to rule out variant Brewer’s Blackbirds.

Nick Lethaby

nlethaby@...

+1 805 562 5106

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An Interesting Pipit in Chicago

2009-12-10T14:28:58Z

Hi all,

I'm not sure what to make of this bird...I think it's an American Pipit (at
least I can't think of what else it might be offhand). I first noticed it
among a group of 8-10 American Pipits, and I thought I had a Yellow-rumped
Warbler for a second. It was smaller than the other pipits, with a shorter
tail, it fluttered more than it walked...and didn't walk with the typical,
long-necked "pigeon stride" that American Pipits have. It did not bob it's
tail while I was watching it.

But the plumage is what really made it stand out: it was gray, with a
distinctly streaked back and crown. White underparts with crisp streaks
forming a short necklace (forming a distinct white throat), distinct whitish
wingbars, tail had 2 outer retrices white all the way to the base. The bill
was also brighter yellow than the other Pipits and the legs appeared a bit
paler, but not flesh-colored (as in Red-throated). Lastly, whenever this
bird got near the American Pipits, they chased it away.

Photos:

http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30158.0

As always, input, suggestions and heckling encouraged.

Cheers,

-greg neise
Berwyn, IL

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Re: An odd duck

2009-12-10T14:16:53Z

All:

A somewhat similar bird was found in Cape May this fall, some pix of which can be seen on my site:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_leukering/3927729306/in/set-72157603872573162/

(once there, you're on the first of three pix; to ogle the others, click on the right of two pix under the words "1-Waterfowl (set)")

Other observers have pix of the bird, but I don't know where they might be viewed.

Tony Leukering

Villas, NJ

-----Original Message-----
From: Will Russell <willrussell@...>
To: BIRDWG01@...
Sent: Thu, Dec 10, 2009 1:47 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] An odd duck

Good morning:

I received the following request from Staffan Rodebrand, a Swede who is the
organizational energy behind the Birding Azores website:
http://azores.seawatching.net/index.php?page=main

"Maybe you can give us some help from "over there". This autumn there was an
exceptional influx of (mostly first-year birds) Blue-winged Teal to the
Azores.   Among them there was a strange bird showing characters of Cinnamon
Teal.   See photos at:
http://azores.seawatching.net/index.php?page=rarebirdref&id=54#NotFirst  (WR
note: scroll to bottom of the page; click on camera icon to the right of the
record date)
 
Maybe you can forward this mail, or give us information of some expert in
these birds in North America that can help us with the identification?"


I responded as follows:  " I agree the bird’s odd and I’m not sure about
those rufous areas but this bird doesn’t look like a Cinnamon Teal to me;
the face pattern is just too pronounced.  I assume this is a first winter
bird, and first winter Cinnamon’s have more of a face pattern than adults
which are plain faced, but typically the brownish tones in Cinnamons of this
age are understated and uniform across the head and body, not patchy or
limited to the underparts as they seem to be in your bird.   

I wonder if the rufous isn't a stain of some kind (even the tail appears
rufous in one image, an area not rufous on Cinnamon Teal of any age)
although there are some scapulars that seem as if they’re rufous edged and
if correct that’s hard to explain with a stain theory.  It is a big-billed
bird too but I would judge not out of the range of male Blue-winged Teal."


If there's a real expert reading this, perhaps they could respond to Staffan
at: rodebrand@...

Will Russell
willrussell@...
 


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An odd duck

2009-12-10T10:47:05Z

Good morning:

I received the following request from Staffan Rodebrand, a Swede who is the
organizational energy behind the Birding Azores website:
http://azores.seawatching.net/index.php?page=main

"Maybe you can give us some help from "over there". This autumn there was an
exceptional influx of (mostly first-year birds) Blue-winged Teal to the
Azores. Among them there was a strange bird showing characters of Cinnamon
Teal. See photos at:
http://azores.seawatching.net/index.php?page=rarebirdref&id=54#NotFirst (WR
note: scroll to bottom of the page; click on camera icon to the right of the
record date)

Maybe you can forward this mail, or give us information of some expert in
these birds in North America that can help us with the identification?"

I responded as follows: " I agree the birds odd and Im not sure about
those rufous areas but this bird doesnt look like a Cinnamon Teal to me;
the face pattern is just too pronounced. I assume this is a first winter
bird, and first winter Cinnamons have more of a face pattern than adults
which are plain faced, but typically the brownish tones in Cinnamons of this
age are understated and uniform across the head and body, not patchy or
limited to the underparts as they seem to be in your bird.

I wonder if the rufous isn't a stain of some kind (even the tail appears
rufous in one image, an area not rufous on Cinnamon Teal of any age)
although there are some scapulars that seem as if theyre rufous edged and
if correct thats hard to explain with a stain theory. It is a big-billed
bird too but I would judge not out of the range of male Blue-winged Teal."

If there's a real expert reading this, perhaps they could respond to Staffan
at: rodebrand@...

Will Russell
willrussell@...

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Re: Scoter Vocalisations

2009-12-10T08:01:29Z

Joseph

Many thanks for your summary and apologies on my behalf. George Sangster very kindly emailed me a Pdf copy of his scientific work, as did Martin Collinson, and I am currently working my way through it, attempting to understand the main differencies in vocalisations. I have always been a great proponent of this particular 'split', after seeing large numbers of American Black, American White-winged and Surf Scoters in San Francisco many winters ago, and of course after seeing some of our vagrant birds on this side of the Atlantic, including one drake which survived for over seven years in North Wales.

I am assuming George will find equal differencies in vocalisations between American and Asiatic White-winged Scoters - both further forms representative of specific merit in my opinion.

Very best wishes

Lee Evans

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Re: Scoter Vocalisations

2009-12-10T07:36:22Z

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 13:47:02 EST, Lee G R Evans <LGREUK400@...> wrote:

>I would be very interested in knowing exactly what these vocalisation
>differences were between NORTH AMERICAN BLACK (americana) and COMMON SCOTER
>(nigra). Can you kindly provide a brief summary?

As nobody seems to have replied, here is a simplified version of Sanger's
results.

The courtship call of both species is a single repeated note. That of
nigra is very short, lasting about a tenth of a second. Sanger transcribes
it as a short, "pju or "pjut" with an abruptly lower-pitched ending.

The call of americana is much longer, each note averaging more than half a
second. Sanger transcribes it as a mournful "whuuuuw, huuuw" or "huuwuw."
It often has a slight rise in pitch either at the beginning, middle or end
which does not occur in nigra. It is also much more variable than the
courtship call of nigra.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu
SF Birding Classes start Feb.9 http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/
Western Field Ornithologists http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/

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Gull Conference, Daytona Beach FL, Jan 2010

2009-12-09T17:35:20Z

Greetings all - hopefully this is not outside the boundaries of ID-Frontiers guidelines, but since so many larophiles participate on this list, it is the logical place to pass along information about this conference, held in conjunction with the Space Coast Birding Festival in Daytona Beach FL.

North American Gull Conference 2010

Nationally know gull experts Alvaro Jaramillo, Bruce Mactavish, and Martin Reid will join Paul Lehman, Clay Taylor, and Michael O’Brien for the 2010 North American Gull Conference. Field trip, lectures, and keynote addresses will explore many aspects of the world of gulls, and lots of opportunity to debate the fine points of gull ID, larophilia, its causes and its cures.

One of Florida’s greatest bird spectacles takes place each winter on the beach at Daytona Beach Shores. Over 30,000 gulls gather each evening along several miles of beach. This is one of the largest, if not the largest, congregation of gulls on any beach in the United States. This amazing avian display has garnered national attention for its size and the diversity of gull species represented here. Observers can walk along the beach and approach the birds within meters, offering excellent opportunities for comparison and photography.

The Space Coast Birding and Nature Festival will host the 2010 North American Gull Conference (January 27 – February 1, 2010) as an important new addition to the festival that will draw the nation’s leading gull experts, and gull watchers from throughout North America. The stunning spectacle of the gulls of Daytona Beach Shores will be a cornerstone of the North American Gull Conference, as well as other excellent gull-watching locations. Last winter the beaches at Daytona Beach Shores turned up Florida’s first record of Vega Gull, as well as Glaucous, Kumlien’s, Thayer’s, California, Franklin’s, possible European Herring Gull and Yellow-legged Gulls, as well as the regular American Herring, Ring-billed, Laughing, Bonaparte’s, Great Black-Backed and Lesser Black-backed Gulls. In addition, several Nelson’s Gull hybrids and a Lesser Black-backed x Herring Gull hybrid were found here. Who knows what else might turn up?

Here is a link to North American Gull Conference:

http://www.nbbd.com/fly/gulls/index.html

For more information, please contact:

Michael Brothers

Ponce Inlet Marine Science Institute

mbrothers@...

386-804-3529

Hope to see you there,

Bob Wallace

New Smyrna Beach FL

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Scoter Vocalisations

2009-12-09T10:47:02Z

I would be very interested in knowing exactly what these vocalisation differences were between NORTH AMERICAN BLACK (americana) and COMMON SCOTER (nigra). Can you kindly provide a brief summary?

Very best wishes

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Re: Black Scoter study

2009-12-09T10:29:07Z

Alderfer 2006 (Complete Birds of North America) stated:
- "Nominate nigra has yet to be recorded in North America".

Richard Klim
Somerset, UK
http://holarcticlisting.com.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Paulsen" <birdbooker@...>
To: <BIRDWG01@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 5:57 PM
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Black Scoter study

> HI ALL:
> Saw this on another listserver:
>
> This will be of interest to many - published by George Sangster today.
>
> The Wilson Journal of Ornithology 121(4):696-702, 2009
>
> ACOUSTIC DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE SCOTERS MELANITTA NIGRA NIGRA AND M. N.
> AMERICANA.
> ABSTRACT.-Scoter vocalizations may have a role in pair formation and pair
> bonding. I compared the courtship calls of male Black Scoters (Melanitta
> nigra nigra and M. n. americana) using published and archived recordings.
> Courtship calls of the two subspecies differed diagnosably in duration. In
> contrast, recordings from different localities within the ranges of each
> taxon showed no diagnosable differentiation. This finding represents the
> first indication these taxa differ in characters other than bill
> morphology and supports recent proposals to treat M. n. americana as a
> distinct species (M. americana). Vocal displays, in contrast to courtship
> displays, of anatids have not been used for assessment of species limits
> in Anatidae. My results indicate vocalizations are a potentially useful
> additional character in species-level taxonomy of anatids.
>
> Are there any records of the Eurasian Black Scoter in North America
> (besides in Greenland)?
>
> --
> Ian Paulsen
> Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
> " Which just goes to show that a
> passion for books is extremely unhealthy."
> from Cornelia Funke's "Inkheart".

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Black Scoter study

2009-12-09T09:54:06Z

HI ALL:
Saw this on another listserver:

This will be of interest to many - published by George Sangster today.

The Wilson Journal of Ornithology 121(4):696-702, 2009

ACOUSTIC DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE SCOTERS MELANITTA NIGRA NIGRA AND M. N.
AMERICANA.
ABSTRACT.-Scoter vocalizations may have a role in pair formation and pair
bonding. I compared the courtship calls of male Black Scoters (Melanitta
nigra nigra and M. n. americana) using published and archived recordings.
Courtship calls of the two subspecies differed diagnosably in duration. In
contrast, recordings from different localities within the ranges of each
taxon showed no diagnosable differentiation. This finding represents the
first indication these taxa differ in characters other than bill
morphology and supports recent proposals to treat M. n. americana as a
distinct species (M. americana). Vocal displays, in contrast to courtship
displays, of anatids have not been used for assessment of species limits
in Anatidae. My results indicate vocalizations are a potentially useful
additional character in species-level taxonomy of anatids.

Are there any records of the Eurasian Black Scoter in North America
(besides in Greenland)?

--

Ian Paulsen
Bainbridge Island, WA, USA
" Which just goes to show that a
passion for books is extremely unhealthy."
from Cornelia Funke's "Inkheart".

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Blackpoll Warbler - age ID

2009-12-09T03:31:42Z

Hi,

I recently found a Blackpoll Warbler in the south of Peru, and that would be the first record for the Manu Biosphere Reserve (who already have more than 1000 species on his list!).

3 pictures here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fabrice-schmitt/sets/72157622966241332/detail/

The bird is in basic plumage, but the difference between male/female HY/SY 1st basic, and female AHY basic, doesn't seem to be obvious...

I don't see any molt limit so I think it is a AHY female.

Any help for the determination of the age and sexe of this bird would be very apreciated.

have good birding

Fabrice

Fabrice Schmitt
Manu Expeditions - Birding Tours
www.Birding-In-Peru.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fabrice-schmitt/

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Re: juvenile swan

2009-12-07T20:27:28Z

I agree that this is a Tundra Swan. The bill seems shorter than I
expect on a Trumpeter, the eye has a more prominent pale "ring" than
usual, the back is more rounded, and the bird appears to have molted a
few wing coverts. The shape of the edge of the feathers at the base of
the bill mentioned by Rob, as he suggests, doesn't work for juveniles.
Juvenile Trumpeters regularly show a Tundra like shape. I posted a
couple photos of representative individuals at:
http://octoberweb.com/birds/trus/dec09/juvbill.html

Cheers.
Cliff

--
Cliff and Lisa Weisse
Island Park, Idaho
cliffandlisa@...

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Re: juvenile swan

2009-12-07T20:17:26Z

Greetings All

I really need to take a longer look at this bird and compare it with a number of photos I took of young Trumps this past weekend

Unfortunately, many of the pics are under or overexposed, making it hard to judge the bird's color. Most young Trumps are quite dark this time of year, with very limited area of white feathering, if any at all. In many pics, this bird seems to have too much white, or just be too pale, for a Trump.

I am not sure how reliable the facial feathering is on youngsters. I've not been able to apply this mark nearly as well to immatures as adults.

The bill in most photos looks too delicate for a Trump to me, though more robust than many immature Tundras.

So, I lean strongly toward Tundra on this bird

Best Wishes

Steven Mlodinow

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Parsons <parsons8@...>
To: BIRDWG01@...
Sent: Mon, Dec 7, 2009 7:25 pm
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] juvenile swan

Hi Brandon,

I believe this bird is a Tundra Swan. In all the photos, note the border of the bare parts of the bill & the feathered area rises essentially vertically from the bottom for most of the way up the face, then makes a nearly right angle bend toward the eye. I understand this pattern is diagnostic for Tundra Swans--at least in adults. On Trumpeter Swans, it rises at a 45 degree angle toward the eye with no change in direction. I'm not so sure this is the case for juvenile birds, though.

The bill does look large and in some photos does seem to show the convex shape I associate with Trumpeter Swan, but all the same, my vote is for Tundra--or possibly a hybrid.

Cheers,

Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8@...

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Re: juvenile swan

2009-12-07T19:25:29Z

Hi Brandon,

The bill does look large and in some photos does seem to show the convex shape I associate with Trumpeter Swan, but all the same, my vote is for Tundra--or possibly a hybrid.

Cheers,

Rob Parsons
Winnipeg, MB
CANADA
parsons8@...

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juvenile swan

2009-12-07T18:33:28Z

All,

This swan was photographed in Colorado this past Saturday (December 5th). I would like to hear what people think about this bird. Thanks.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=127252&id=826139515&l=1dac3fc8a8

Brandon Percival
Pueblo West, CO

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Re: Mystery Empid - opinions requested

2009-12-03T13:12:24Z

HI,

I too have been reviewing photographs. I agree with Joe that the crisp,
conspicuous eyering looks better for Least, but I don't agree that it
rules out Dusky. On Peter LaTourrette's bird photography website, at least
3 of the 4 photographed Dusky Flycatchers have eyerings that are certainly
thin in the areas described by Joe, but they are nonetheless complete. The
dark wing does favor Least, but given the overexposed photographic
conditions, I'm not sure how true a representation of wing color we're
getting. It comes down to that darn long tail that keeps me from
reconciling this bird with being a Least. As Steve said, we'll never know
what this bird was, but it has been fun to ponder.

Jim Pike
Huntington Beach, CA

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Re: Mystery Empid - opinions requested

2009-12-03T12:35:32Z

Greetings Again

So, I reviewed photos of about 15 Dusky Flycatchers taken during Aug-Sep in Washington. All showed COMPLETE eyerings, with some narrowing at the anterior superior portion, at the same location many Gray Flycatchers showed a break in the eyering.

In many of the photographed WA Duskies, the eyering was a bit thicker anteriorly and posteriorly than above or below. Many also showed a vague pale area in the lores.

The mandible color was highly variable in my WA photos, and in my recollection of birds seen in WA, especially during fall. Some bills are nearly entirely pale beneath, some nearly entirely dark.

In the photographed birds, the primary spacing seems fairly consistent, with the longest exposed primary not much longer than the penultimate primary, and then even spacing between primaries proximal to that.

The Mystery Empid does seem to show a round eyering, not typical for a DUFL, but perhaps within range thereof. There seems to be a slightly paler spot in the lores, though ????

The primary spacing seems to match that of Dusky fairly well.

So... the bird could be a Dusky. Its overall structure seems more consistent with that species than Least. I do not see any plumage characters or soft part markings that would strongly go against Dusky, but on the other hand, there is nothing that I note that rules out Least either, and the eyering does seem more reminiscent of that species.

If the Mystery Empid photo was taken in WA, I would be very reticent to label it a Least. On the other hand, for an identification of this difficulty, I would not be personally comfortable calling this bird a Dusky Flycatcher (especially a vagrant Dusky) on three over-exposed photographs, though the challenge of sorting this bird out is most welcome.

Best Wishes

Steven Mlodinow

Nate,

I checked the photos this morning.  First I do not know what your bird is,
but I am having a lot of trouble turning this bird into either a Dusky
Flycatcher or a Gray Flycatcher. 

The most striking feature in your photos is the bold, well-defined circular
eyering.  I have never seen such an eyering on a Dusky Flycatcher which
invariably has the eyering broken on the top or top forward section of the
eye.

Gray Flycatcher also invariably (?) shows a broken eyering, usually
narrower on the top and with a gap on the bottom of the eye.

It appears to me that these photos are seriously over-exposed and may not
represent the true colors of the bird.  I think I detect a slight contrast
between the gray nape and olive upper back.  I agree that the wings are
rather dark and contrasty and that makes me wary of the bird being any
western Empidonax.

Are we sure it's not a Least Flycatcher? 

On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 19:57:57 -0700, Jim Pike <jpike44@...> wrote:

>Hi Nate,
>
>I think the head looks too big, the wing too dark and contrasty, and the 
>distal half of the mandible too dark for Gray Flycatcher. I think the 
>default choice is Dusky.

-- 
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA        jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu 
SF Birding Classes start Feb.9     http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee  http://www.californiabirds.org/
Western Field Ornithologists       http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/

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Re: Mystery Empid - opinions requested

2009-12-03T12:03:38Z

Greetings All

In response to Joe Morlan's post below, I agree on most points. I just reviewed photos of 10 or so different Gray Flycatchers well photographed in Jan-Mar in Baja California Sur

1) the photos are incredibly over-exposed, making judgment of color nearly impossible and potentially hiding any slight variation in nape vs back color, as one might see on a Least or eastern Willow Fly, for example.

2) However, this exposure might also increase apparent contrast between dark tertials centers and paler edges. So, I would discard that mark as useful, just as I would judgment of color.

3) The bill is looks thick in profile c/w the photos I have of Gray Flys, and the black on mandible seems too extensive for Gray (c/w my memory and the photos reviewed).

4) The eyerings on the Gray Flycatchers I have photographed differ from what Joe describes. The eyerings of birds photographed in Baja have distinctly complete eyerings below. In some birds the eyering is thickest below; however, pretty consistently the eyering is very narrow, or apparently broken, at the top of the eyering towards the front-- ie, anterior/superior portion of eyering. The only (!) photo I have from WA is from Sep. This bird -- not a great pic -- seems to show the narrowing mentioned above AND the break beneath Joe mentioned.

5) In the Baja birds, the longest exposed primary typically (this is somewhat based on bird's position) is not much longer than the penultimate primary, and then there is a moderate gap, followed by a shorter gap. This seems moderately consistent in photos, and is different from what is seen in photos of the Mystery Bird.

I will try to tackle Dusky Fly option next. The bird looks rather long tailed and small headed for a Least, but I wonder if that is partly due to the birds posture, apparently stretching its neck out, as if to have a better look at something.

Best Wishes

Steven Mlodinow

Nate,

I checked the photos this morning.  First I do not know what your bird is,
but I am having a lot of trouble turning this bird into either a Dusky
Flycatcher or a Gray Flycatcher. 

The most striking feature in your photos is the bold, well-defined circular
eyering.  I have never seen such an eyering on a Dusky Flycatcher which
invariably has the eyering broken on the top or top forward section of the
eye.

Gray Flycatcher also invariably (?) shows a broken eyering, usually
narrower on the top and with a gap on the bottom of the eye.

It appears to me that these photos are seriously over-exposed and may not
represent the true colors of the bird.  I think I detect a slight contrast
between the gray nape and olive upper back.  I agree that the wings are
rather dark and contrasty and that makes me wary of the bird being any
western Empidonax.

Are we sure it's not a Least Flycatcher?

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Re: Mystery Empid - opinions requested

2009-12-03T08:57:12Z

Nate,

I checked the photos this morning. First I do not know what your bird is,
but I am having a lot of trouble turning this bird into either a Dusky
Flycatcher or a Gray Flycatcher.

The most striking feature in your photos is the bold, well-defined circular
eyering. I have never seen such an eyering on a Dusky Flycatcher which
invariably has the eyering broken on the top or top forward section of the
eye.

Gray Flycatcher also invariably (?) shows a broken eyering, usually
narrower on the top and with a gap on the bottom of the eye.

It appears to me that these photos are seriously over-exposed and may not
represent the true colors of the bird. I think I detect a slight contrast
between the gray nape and olive upper back. I agree that the wings are
rather dark and contrasty and that makes me wary of the bird being any
western Empidonax.

Are we sure it's not a Least Flycatcher?

On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 19:57:57 -0700, Jim Pike <jpike44@...> wrote:

>Hi Nate,
>
>I think the head looks too big, the wing too dark and contrasty, and the
>distal half of the mandible too dark for Gray Flycatcher. I think the
>default choice is Dusky.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA jmorlan (at) ccsf.edu
SF Birding Classes start Feb.9 http://fog.ccsf.edu/jmorlan/
California Bird Records Committee http://www.californiabirds.org/
Western Field Ornithologists http://www.westernfieldornithologists.org/

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Re: Mystery Empid - opinions requested

2009-12-02T18:57:57Z

Hi Nate,

I think the head looks too big, the wing too dark and contrasty, and the
distal half of the mandible too dark for Gray Flycatcher. I think the
default choice is Dusky.

regards,

Jim Pike
Huntington Beach, CA

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Re: Mystery Empid - opinions requested

2009-12-02T13:38:21Z

Sorry Rich - none of us paid attention to tail-dipping. We were covered in a fallout swarm and foolishly paid attention to "rare" warblers instead...

I apologize in advance if I have posted an "unanswerable" question - that is why I've been so hesitant to bring it to this group...

Nate

----- Original Message ----
From: Rich Hoyer <birdernaturalist@...>
To: Nate Dias <offshorebirder@...>
Cc: BIRDWG01@...
Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 3:45:23 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Empid - opinions requested

Nate and All,

Did no one notice the tail movements? If the bird dipped it down like a phoebe, it's a Gray Flycatcher. If it flicked its tail up, it's a Dusky. Gray also more habitually forages on the ground. To me, bird looks too pale overall to be Dusky, and the long bill with sharply demarcated tip looks better for Gray. It also has a posture that looks more like Gray, leaning slightly forward. But I wouldn't place too much importance on those features, given that colors and postures in photos can mislead.

Good Birding,

Rich
---
Rich Hoyer
Tucson, Arizona
http://birdernaturalist.blogspot.com/

Senior Leader for WINGS
http://wingsbirds.com
---

On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Nate Dias wrote:

> Let me preface this post by saying I am aware of the pitfalls of trying to definitively ID Empidonax Flycatchers by photo alone. I grew up reading works like Kaufman's "Advanced Birding" that state this is often not possible.
>
> I have refrained from posting this query to ID-Frontiers for some time now, but after hearing fairly positive assertions from multiple experts, I have decided to do so. The bird - even if it can only be narrowed down to a couple of possibilities - is likely a first state record. It was observed during fall migration (mid-September) on Kiawah Island, South Carolina, USA.
>
>
> When I first encountered the following Empid, I mistakenly chalked it up as a Traill's Flycatcher:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/scbirdpics/
>
> (after clicking the thumbnail photos, click the "+ All Sizes" button to see an extra-large image. You can also right-click on the image, save it to your computer and use Photoshop or other programs to adjust brightness, etc)
>
> Back at the time, I foolishly passed off the bird's apparent rounded head, grayish color, long tail, and some other features as artifacts of bright light, angle and so forth.
>
> We were in the middle of a migration fallout event, and I kept getting distracted by Blue-winged Warblers and other goodies. But in hindsight, I wish I had ignored them all and gotten some videotape of this Empid. I did not hear it vocalizing and I regret to say I did not pay attention to things like tail-wagging or tail-flicking. I could kick myself over that...
>
> At any rate:
> When I was recently going through some photos and field notes for 'catch-up' eBird submissions, I became convinced the bird was NOT a Traill's Flycatcher (Willow/Alder complex).
>
> In terms of behavior: the bird stayed fairly low - mostly hanging around a small brush pile in a clearing at the edge of a maritime forest at the far eastern end of Kiawah Island, SC. It did not use high perches or perch in trees out in the open - it kept low and fed on Pyralid moths and other bugs around the brush pile and in the grass/weeds.
>
>
> * I realize we may not be able to 100% conclusively ID this bird from photos alone - but if so, I would like to narrow it down to as few possibilities as we can.
>
> Here are my thoughts:
>
> Based on the bird's pale whitish belly and 'dirty' grayish-white breast (no yellow or green tones), rounded crown, fairly prominent white eye ring, longish tail, short primary projection, very long+flat bill, gray coloration, dark-tipped lower mandible and head-versus-body size: I feel I can safely rule out all Empids except Least Flycatcher, Gray Flycatcher and Dusky Flycatcher.
>
> To my mind - the tail seems too long, and the head "too small for the body", and the bill too long to be a Least Flycatcher.
>
> I am less confident about ruling out Dusky Flycatcher, but feel it may be possible, based on the lack of green tones on the bird's back and the very long bill length.
>
> I cannot rule out Gray Flycatcher at all - in fact, that is what I think the bird must be.
>
> Any thoughts appreciated.
>
> Nathan Dias - Charleston, SC
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Mystery Empid - opinions requested

2009-12-02T12:45:23Z

Nate and All,

Did no one notice the tail movements? If the bird dipped it down like
a phoebe, it's a Gray Flycatcher. If it flicked its tail up, it's a
Dusky. Gray also more habitually forages on the ground. To me, bird
looks too pale overall to be Dusky, and the long bill with sharply
demarcated tip looks better for Gray. It also has a posture that looks
more like Gray, leaning slightly forward. But I wouldn't place too
much importance on those features, given that colors and postures in
photos can mislead.

Good Birding,

Rich
---
Rich Hoyer
Tucson, Arizona
http://birdernaturalist.blogspot.com/

Senior Leader for WINGS
http://wingsbirds.com
---

On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Nate Dias wrote:

> Let me preface this post by saying I am aware of the pitfalls of
> trying to definitively ID Empidonax Flycatchers by photo alone. I
> grew up reading works like Kaufman's "Advanced Birding" that state
> this is often not possible.
>
> I have refrained from posting this query to ID-Frontiers for some
> time now, but after hearing fairly positive assertions from multiple
> experts, I have decided to do so. The bird - even if it can only be
> narrowed down to a couple of possibilities - is likely a first state
> record. It was observed during fall migration (mid-September) on
> Kiawah Island, South Carolina, USA.
>
>
> When I first encountered the following Empid, I mistakenly chalked
> it up as a Traill's Flycatcher:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/scbirdpics/
>
> (after clicking the thumbnail photos, click the "+ All Sizes" button
> to see an extra-large image. You can also right-click on the image,
> save it to your computer and use Photoshop or other programs to
> adjust brightness, etc)
>
> Back at the time, I foolishly passed off the bird's apparent rounded
> head, grayish color, long tail, and some other features as artifacts
> of bright light, angle and so forth.
>
> We were in the middle of a migration fallout event, and I kept
> getting distracted by Blue-winged Warblers and other goodies. But
> in hindsight, I wish I had ignored them all and gotten some
> videotape of this Empid. I did not hear it vocalizing and I regret
> to say I did not pay attention to things like tail-wagging or tail-
> flicking. I could kick myself over that...
>
> At any rate:
> When I was recently going through some photos and field notes for
> 'catch-up' eBird submissions, I became convinced the bird was NOT a
> Traill's Flycatcher (Willow/Alder complex).
>
> In terms of behavior: the bird stayed fairly low - mostly hanging
> around a small brush pile in a clearing at the edge of a maritime
> forest at the far eastern end of Kiawah Island, SC. It did not use
> high perches or perch in trees out in the open - it kept low and fed
> on Pyralid moths and other bugs around the brush pile and in the
> grass/weeds.
>
>
> * I realize we may not be able to 100% conclusively ID this bird
> from photos alone - but if so, I would like to narrow it down to as
> few possibilities as we can.
>
> Here are my thoughts:
>
> Based on the bird's pale whitish belly and 'dirty' grayish-white
> breast (no yellow or green tones), rounded crown, fairly prominent
> white eye ring, longish tail, short primary projection, very long
> +flat bill, gray coloration, dark-tipped lower mandible and head-
> versus-body size: I feel I can safely rule out all Empids except
> Least Flycatcher, Gray Flycatcher and Dusky Flycatcher.
>
> To my mind - the tail seems too long, and the head "too small for
> the body", and the bill too long to be a Least Flycatcher.
>
> I am less confident about ruling out Dusky Flycatcher, but feel it
> may be possible, based on the lack of green tones on the bird's back
> and the very long bill length.
>
> I cannot rule out Gray Flycatcher at all - in fact, that is what I
> think the bird must be.
>
> Any thoughts appreciated.
>
> Nathan Dias - Charleston, SC
>
>
>
>
>
> Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01
>
> Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html

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Re: Mystery Empid - opinions requested

2009-12-02T12:38:43Z

Nate et al.:

The mostly-dark bill (with pale base to the mandible), short wings, long tail, and overall color are perfect for Dusky Flycatcher. As you're probably thinking, these features are

also pretty good for Gray Fly. However, that species usually (and I stress that qualifier) has less black on the mandible and noting precise tail-wagging actions would have been helpful with this bird. However, I would still be quite happy to call this a Dusky, as the wing formula looks quite typical for that species and somewhat wrong for Gray. Gray typically has a wider gap between the longest primary and the next one proximally than shown by the SC bird. Additionally, the next-most proximal gap is typically the widest in Gray, whereas that gap in Dusky is practically the same width as the next gap proximally.

Great pix!

Tony Leukering

Villas, NJ

-----Original Message-----
From: Nate Dias <offshorebirder@...>
To: BIRDWG01@...
Sent: Wed, Dec 2, 2009 3:17 pm
Subject: [BIRDWG01] Mystery Empid - opinions requested

Let me preface this post by saying I am aware of the pitfalls of trying to 
definitively ID Empidonax Flycatchers by photo alone.  I grew up reading works 
like Kaufman's "Advanced Birding" that state this is often not possible.

I have refrained from posting this query to ID-Frontiers for some time now, but 
after hearing fairly positive assertions from multiple experts, I have decided 
to do so.  The bird - even if it can only be narrowed down to a couple of 
possibilities - is likely a first state record.  It was observed during fall 
migration (mid-September) on Kiawah Island, South Carolina, USA.


When I first encountered the following Empid, I mistakenly chalked it up as a 
Traill's Flycatcher:  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/scbirdpics/

(after clicking the thumbnail photos, click the "+ All Sizes" button to see an 
extra-large image.  You can also right-click on the image, save it to your 
computer and use Photoshop or other programs to adjust brightness, etc)

Back at the time, I foolishly passed off the bird's apparent rounded head, 
grayish color, long tail, and some other features as artifacts of bright light, 
angle and so forth.

We were in the middle of a migration fallout event, and I kept getting 
distracted by Blue-winged Warblers and other goodies.  But in hindsight, I wish 
I had ignored them all and gotten some videotape of this Empid.  I did not hear 
it vocalizing and I regret to say I did not pay attention to things like 
tail-wagging or tail-flicking.  I could kick myself over that...

At any rate:
When I was recently going through some photos and field notes for 'catch-up' 
eBird submissions, I became convinced the bird was NOT a Traill's Flycatcher 
(Willow/Alder complex).  

In terms of behavior: the bird stayed fairly low - mostly hanging around a small 
brush pile in a clearing at the edge of a maritime forest at the far eastern end 
of Kiawah Island, SC.  It did not use high perches or perch in trees out in the 
open - it kept low and fed on Pyralid moths and other bugs around the brush pile 
and in the grass/weeds.


* I realize we may not be able to 100% conclusively ID this bird from photos 
alone - but if so, I would like to narrow it down to as few possibilities as we 
can.  

Here are my thoughts:

Based on the bird's pale whitish belly and 'dirty' grayish-white breast (no 
yellow or green tones), rounded crown, fairly prominent white eye ring, longish 
tail, short primary projection, very long+flat bill, gray coloration, 
dark-tipped lower mandible and head-versus-body size: I feel I can safely rule 
out all Empids except Least Flycatcher, Gray Flycatcher and Dusky Flycatcher.

To my mind - the tail seems too long, and the head "too small for the body", and 
the bill too long to be a Least Flycatcher.

I am less confident about ruling out Dusky Flycatcher, but feel it may be 
possible, based on the lack of green tones on the bird's back and the very long 
bill length.

I cannot rule out Gray Flycatcher at all - in fact, that is what I think the 
bird must be.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Nathan Dias - Charleston, SC


      


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